Healing + Human Potential
Why Your Relationship to Life is the Most Powerful Healing Tool with Matt + Joy Kahn | EP 91
Tue, 03 Jun 2025
What if the one thing standing in the way of your healing… is how you relate to life itself? In this episode of The Healing & Human Potential Podcast, I sit down with Matt and Joy Khan to explore how true healing goes beyond quick fixes and insights — it’s about transforming your relationship with your mind, emotions, desires, and even your pain. We unpack how to forgive, love yourself, and come into acceptance since that is more powerful when lived, than just understood. Matt and Joy offer a grounded, heart-centered look at how to move through resistance, stop bypassing, and bring your healing into your body and everyday life. If you’ve ever felt stuck on your path or like you “should be further along,” this episode is a powerful reminder: it’s not about doing more — it’s about relating differently to what’s already here. P.S. Stick around towards the end of the episode where they share channeled insights on humanity’s future, including a spiritual perspective on artificial intelligence as a mirror for our own awakening. === GUEST LINKS https://www.mattandjoy.org https://www.instagram.com/mattandjoykahn https://www.facebook.com/mattandjoykahn https://www.youtube.com/@MattandJoyKahn === Have you watched our previous episode with Aaron? Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/hEARTjm5Urw ==== Want one of the most Powerful Tools to Support you in Awakening & Manifesting Your Dream Life from the Inside Out (for Free)? Learn how to live to your full potential without letting fear get in the way of your dreams. ✨ Here's How to Get Your Gift: ✨ Step 1: Just head over to Apple Podcast or Spotify + leave a review now Step 2: Take a screenshot before hitting submit Step 3: Then go to alyssanobriga.com/podcast to upload it! ==== Alyssa Nobriga International, LLC - Disclaimer This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or any other qualified professional. We shall in no event be held liable to any party for any reason arising directly or indirectly for the use or interpretation of the information presented in this video. Copyright 2023, Alyssa Nobriga International, LLC - All rights reserved. === Want 3 Life-Changing Tools you can use on yourself (or your clients) from inside our Accredited Coaching Certification? Click here to get them for Free: https://www.alyssanobriga.com/tools 🎉 === Website: alyssanobriga.com Instagram: @alyssanobriga TikTok - @alyssanobriga Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/6b5s2xbA2d3pETSvYBZ9YR Apple Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healing-human-potential/id1705626495
Chapter 1: What is the main topic of this episode?
welcome back to the healing and human potential podcast where today we're exploring what it really takes to heal mentally emotionally and spiritually we're talking about the power of forgiveness and acceptance and the deeper guidance that helps us move from insight into lasting change joining us are matt and joy khan spiritual teachers and channels known for their grounded wisdom and heart-led guidance make sure to stay to the end so you can hear their channeled predictions on what's unfolding in the world right now and how to understand ai through a spiritual lens
Chapter 2: How can we transform our relationship with ourselves?
So we actually have already started diving into the conversation, which is so juicy, and I'm so happy to have you guys here, which I know this is just gonna sprout in so many beautiful ways, as it already is. And I wanted to start the conversation talking about something you guys say, that life is not here to give you what you want, it's here to wake you up. I love this. I agree with this.
Talk to us about how you see this perspective.
If I reflect on my life, I can think of all the times in my life where I wanted something, I imagined, Only once I have this will I be okay. And then of course, you know, as you evolve, you realize the things I want are symbols of what I really wish I could feel within myself. We both have gone through our own unique awakenings, but as I've gone through my life, what I've realized
is that life has always given me what I've needed to wake up out of the hypnosis of my commitment to a certain belief system. And it's on the other side of that where I actually feel better than I thought I was gonna feel had I gotten what I wanted. And I say that as someone who's gotten a lot of things I wanted. I've got a lot of things I didn't want.
And I was mesmerized by getting what I want and then not changing how I feel. And I think that fundamentally what it's helped me realize is that whether I'm getting what I want or whether I'm getting what I don't want, or whether I'm even having that conversation with really doesn't kind of exist as much anymore, is that I'm always gaining relationship. I'm always in a relationship with myself.
And it has caused me to perceive reality as a relationship. And I think that as we as human beings, I'd love to hear what Joy's going to add to this, but I think what we realize is that life itself is a relationship, that the conclusions we draw are fantasies, and yet the relationships we build within our fantasies is what's real.
And I was just thinking, as you were saying that, you know, thinking about desire and how desire is really more of a tool to move us towards the awakening that brings us to the life we love, whether we have the outcome or not, then it starts to become easier to get to that place of, oh, I see that my life is better because I allowed this desire to move me on the path of discovery of finding out who I am and what it is that I really want underneath.
Like you were speaking to most of the time we want peace, right? We want ease. We want love. We want connection. We want to be seen. We want all of those characteristics that are found in relationship.
And so if we allow desire to be the thing that moves us towards the deeper relationships that we want, then we can have what we want and ultimately fulfill all of those dreams and then have, you know, whatever the things are and enjoy that too.
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Chapter 3: What role does forgiveness play in healing?
There's going to be so much resonance with us. I say there's a divine design within desire. So like that partner, like I want that. It's oftentimes showing us what's unhealed within us so that we can see it and then heal it.
And so it's like it doesn't always give us what we want, but it does help us deep down give us what we deeply need and ultimately what we want, even though it may look totally different.
I think even when you say that, what comes to me, like we take an example of someone who says, I'd like to have more money, which is, you know, all desires are great. They're fine. Someone who says I want more money is wanting to manifest an object called more money. What we have discovered is that the universe always interprets things through the language of relationships.
So what the universe will bring you is a opportunity to have a different relationship with money. And so if you don't understand that, and even fundamentally, the way we have come together and the way we look at life. As a couple, when we came together, it was so amazing because we fell in love. But then it was like the first time we met someone that saw it the way we do.
And the way we see things, and this, I think, is the fundamental difference when we get down to the core of any kind of awakening, is that there are two ways we can look at insight. Insight is either there's wisdom that is always connected to relationship. So if I'm going to gain insight about my mind, I'm going to look at the relationship I have with my mind.
So if my mind is noisy, the question is, how do I treat it? How am I responding? What is the invitation it's bringing to me? Like if my mind was my son and my son is being noisy, how can I help you? What do you need? Now, if I separate wisdom from relationship, we create object. Now I have the object called mind. So now I have a mind that's noisy. How do I silence it? How do I control it?
And then we have this unconscious masculine energy that is either I'm afraid of being overpowered by it or I need to dominate it. And so if we connect wisdom with relationship, we don't feel like objects. We don't attract people who treat us like objects and we don't treat ourselves or others like objects. And I think fundamentally when we get down to the core of insight is
Wisdom cannot be separated from relationship. Otherwise, that's kind of where the ego takes on some sort of insider perspective. And that's where we all kind of go off the rails.
And I know you guys talk about self-love being the most transformative force in the world. I have some thoughts about this, but I'd love to hear how you see love really on a global level healing humanity.
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Chapter 4: How does self-love heal humanity?
I mean, that's radical. That's radical. And I think people need to have a deeper spiritual awakening where they have experienced a deeper love that feels safe to drop the defenses, right? Internally and then also projected externally. But I'm also thinking how that shifts all systems, even parenting. So like when we're kids, some parenting styles, I was raised where
If I was upset or act like angry, then I'd get sent to my room and I'd lose connection. And it's like, how do I really be allowed to have my feelings, not wallow in them, but have my feelings and maintain the connection, the relationship.
This is some micro ways that also reflect macro.
Yes.
And I love that because I think you said it in that and. So for us, it's always, can we look at this through the lens of and? Yeah. And I think that's what happens in the awakening. So we first start off our life thinking about what am I getting from my parents? What am I getting from my friends? What am I getting from this experience? And we're not thinking about what they're getting.
We're not taught that we're not mirrored that as we're younger. And I think that's something that we can begin doing is to mirror the Let's make this about us. So we both want to have an experience. And for me, I want this for me. And I want you to have the experience you want to have. And so how do we address that as a natural pattern within us that I naturally think about?
And like you were saying, As we give to one culture or one community or one country, it's for ourselves and for you. How can we extend this? So I think that's just we ripple that out into our lives. What are we thinking about and or is it always for me or you?
And even as we come into our power early awakening, we tend to have this sense of I've got to get my power back and I've got to make sure that I'm seen and heard. And so it takes those layers of awakening and softening of the heart to go, oh, yes. not just for me, but how can I be here for you? Right? How can I be here for you without negating myself? And I think that's the key.
You know, just touch upon when you say, and it's even important in self-love and I'm sure you've seen this where self-love, if it gets misunderstood, kind of like self-care it's, oh, I didn't take the step forward in my business today. I didn't do the things I needed in my personal life. I loved myself.
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Chapter 5: What are the misconceptions about acceptance?
Our whole entire life is about the space we hold with each other. And it is our entire life is reflected from that. And we try to do the same thing with clients and as we're with people. And it's a simple thing that would have been impossible 20 years ago for me. Right. But it's such a simple thing once you realize it.
And it's profound because a lot of the time people just need one person to truly see them. And that really helps them heal or not heal. You know, I just had somebody on the podcast where there's been a lot of people who have gone through horrific childhood.
And a teacher or somebody, like a prison guard, people have just seen them and it just takes that one person to really remind us of our true nature. And so, part of this conversation, I'm also curious about the role of forgiveness. I know we talk about forgiveness and people have different definitions of it. What do you guys see as the role of forgiveness in healing?
I think we look at forgiveness as one of the fundamental tools where love allows us to experience love in action. So forgiveness, we look at this as being able to give as before, right? So forgiveness allows us to return to a state where my heart is open and I'm able to give myself to the world again, right?
Because whatever happened caused me to contract and to step back and that doesn't serve me. So now whatever occurred continues to perpetuate itself through me. So forgiveness creates an opportunity to rewire our experience, And to say, even though this thing occurred, I can also step forward and continue to have my life.
And so I think without forgiveness, it makes gratitude something that's more of a platitude. It's something that we just say, but our heart is closed, right? So we're trying, we're trying to get past it. We're trying to bypass the forgiveness, but forgiveness is the key that opens the heart again and says, you're okay now. What happened was difficult. It was true. It was real.
You were potentially the victim of something, you know, in this case, maybe horrendous or horrific, but you're also okay right now because you have an opportunity to heal and to move forward. So it's never about letting anybody off the hook, which we talk about a lot.
A couple of things come to me on this. One is that forgiveness is the ability to say, yes, this happened to me. But when I invite forgiveness, and of course the first step of forgiveness is having the right not to forgive. Because it has to be... That's right. You have to be ready for it.
But forgiveness is a way of saying, I'm not going to ignore the fact that while this happened to me, there is also an invitation for me... to utilize the aftermath of that experience to make myself into a person that can inspire and transform other people who have been hurt. Because when we're hurt, we spiral in our hurt.
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Chapter 6: How do we navigate trust in our lives?
On a very practical level, if I judge someone, I hurt. And so the forgiveness, if I'm forgiving, I'm forgiving myself for the judgment I placed on it, and that is the gift back to me. And I think that acceptance is such a foundation to this work. I know it's a foundation for my work and yours.
And one of the things that I think people misunderstand is thinking that if I accept something, then I'm stuck with it. As if it's complacency. Like, I'll have this forever, right? And it's not that. Actually, it's the exact opposite. What I accept, I can change. It's like if I'm not judging all of the past and... I get my power back to see what it is and then shift it.
So acceptance is more of an internal experience where behavior is a shift that changes something. So talk to us about what are some misunderstandings people have around acceptance? Because I know it's important to you guys.
As you're saying that, I can just feel it because this is such a deep part of I think all of the work, whether it's ours or anyone holding space, that for us, acceptance has become a powerful way for us to accept the change is actually happening.
So I think when we get to that place where navigating the healing journey, we've had an experience that we are in the process of moving through forgiveness. We're finding peace with, we're wanting to accept, right? Like you said, without proving that, you know, I have to somehow rewrite the story.
I think that can be a place that people get stuck is I have to now reframe the story in a way that makes it different than what it was. And acceptance is really about it happened just as I see it. It happened exactly like that. And I don't have to love it, but it occurred differently. And now it means because I can reflect on it, it's changing.
And so then it creates an opportunity to bring in the relationship with love and say, I'm going to fall in love with the change that moves me through this and into whatever is next. But we then can embrace this relationship with change as the true nature of acceptance, because acceptance is that I'm willing to change. I'm willing to be changed. I'm willing to
Have the divine move through me and change these circumstances, these experiences. So for me, and as we work with our clients, we have been focused on, can you accept that this was temporary? It has moved through your experience and it was what it was. And can we feel deeply any of the grief that sits here with you in this moment? Yes.
And when we can be with what's in this moment, then we can be with... what's moving through you next. For us, these moments are, we look at it on the other side of not what I have to do, but what I get to do.
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Chapter 7: What are fake breakthroughs in personal growth?
You know, what strikes me when you say that, and I love how you just put that, is that A lot of spiritual experiences happen in a vacuum, in an echo chamber, much like if people take a karate class. It happens in a dojo. We're all practicing, and everything is very, you hold this position, I do this. And we all walk away going, I think I know what to do.
And then if there's a fight, God forbid, it's very fast. It's very ugly. And it's not the same way. So when you come out of a spiritual event, you go, I think I know how this works. And then you go hang out with your family. And you go, wow, that's not really how it goes down.
What I think is really interesting, and I love what you said about if we allow ourselves to feel our feelings as entry point into love, is that in the echo chamber, in this vacuum of spiritual healing or anything, our experiences tend to be about these tools applied to the experiences. we are the most likely to avoid.
And then so we're always on the lookout for something to heal, and we don't actually develop a relationship with joy or happiness because we're so afraid of bypassing the trauma. And yet, if we develop a relationship and flex our muscles to learn how to also be in relationship with the other side of the emotional scale, the traumas stop echoing and stop repeating.
And so the irony is when we're always on the lookout for something to heal, we're actually bypassing the opportunity to get to know the other side of our experiences. And, you know, when we're talking about resistance, just as we always love helping people experience, like what if resistance is arising? To develop a relationship with you. Like I have a relationship with myself.
I have a relationship with resistance. I have a relationship with anger. Most people would never know when I'm having the experiences I'm having because my relationship is incredibly developed. And when I think the fantasy is no longer trying to feel one way versus another, and we can look at it like a family, that our family functions the best in a functioning relationship,
this is why the things in life arise, right? It's not I'm failing my spiritual test, my vibration wasn't high enough.
It's more that measuring stick that's projected onto God, onto yourself.
Back on the sky, daddy, sky, mommy, and back into the scorekeeper, which is another term we give for the ego, is that it's not like you ever get beyond resistance. It's that there's no longer a scorekeeper giving it validity. It's, oh, this is arising for me to have a relationship with it.
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Chapter 8: How can we achieve lasting transformation?
Am I going to keep saying yes to what I want? Am I going to find my way through this? Or am I going to let this shut me down? Or am I going to try to push my way through it rather than just allowing myself to be moved through it? So a lot of that then brings us to the momentum and the transformation that naturally happens if we understand that What we're being guided through.
And I think you said it so beautifully. We are, our desire is activating a pathway of healing. And every time we have a desire, it lets you know, something's going to heal and change. Every desire is loaded with it. And so if we know that, then we don't stop with the aha. We keep going. And we bring it into the body and into the world. That's right. Into the body.
Cause I think there's a lot of people on Instagram having these ahas and then that's great. It's just the first step. The second step is the acceptance that you're speaking of. And I also think that there's like, in addition to that, I think there's different levels of knowing. So you can mentally know something and it's like watering a plant.
It needs to seep into a deeper way of emotionally accepting it. And then it seeps in deeper into your gut way of being. So it's like head, heart and gut where it's integrated. Sometimes I'll hear people not forgive themselves because they're like, I knew better. But there's one level of knowing.
And so also to be gentle and gracious with ourselves as we go from head to heart to really feeling that acceptance to testing and living differently. And just to add on on that forgiveness piece is really letting ourselves feel the full raw emotion before moving to the forgiveness. Otherwise it becomes a bypass. We have to feel the thing and then forgive. Otherwise it won't integrate.
It just gets stuck on one of the levels.
We find ourselves pushing. That's right. Right. Pushing against or trying to push through something that isn't ready to be matured. It's like trying to pull the seat up off the ground and say, why aren't you a tree yet? Right. Like, let it be nurtured in all the ways that it needs to. And it's so interesting thinking about how easy it is for us to get attached to.
It's if I've got it in the mind, I can move forward. Or others would be like, oh, I've got it in the heart, so I'm going to move forward. Or I can feel it in my gut, so I'll move forward. But they're not having a relationship with all three. That integration isn't saying I feel it in all of me. That's right.
And, you know, when we have these aha moments, we're opening up to becoming a different version of ourselves. And so then the question becomes, what will be different in my actions? What will I embrace more of in this new reality? What will I have less of in this reality, internally and externally? What will I do differently?
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