Lex Fridman Podcast
#427 – Neil Adams: Judo, Olympics, Winning, Losing, and the Champion Mindset
Sat, 20 Apr 2024
Neil Adams is a judo world champion, 2-time Olympic silver medalist, 5-time European champion, and often referred to as the Voice of Judo. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - ZipRecruiter: https://ziprecruiter.com/lex - Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/lex to get special savings - MasterClass: https://masterclass.com/lexpod to get 15% off - LMNT: https://drinkLMNT.com/lex to get free sample pack - NetSuite: http://netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/neil-adams-transcript EPISODE LINKS: Neil's Instagram: https://instagram.com/naefighting Neil's YouTube: https://youtube.com/NAEffectiveFighting Neil's TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@neiladamsmbe Neil's Facebook: https://facebook.com/NeilAdamsJudo Neil's X: https://x.com/NeilAdamsJudo Neil's Website: https://naeffectivefighting.com Neil's Podcast: https://naeffectivefighting.com/podcasts/the-dojo-collective-podcast A Life in Judo (book): https://amzn.to/4d3DtfB A Game of Throws (audiobook): https://amzn.to/4aA2WeJ PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (09:13) - 1980 Olympics (26:35) - Judo explained (34:40) - Winning (52:54) - 1984 Olympics (1:01:55) - Lessons from losing (1:17:37) - Teddy Riner (1:37:12) - Training in Japan (1:52:51) - Jiu jitsu (2:03:59) - Training (2:27:18) - Advice for beginners
The following is a conversation with Neil Adams, a legend in the sport of judo. He is a world champion, two-time Olympic silver medalist, five-time European champion, and often referred to as the voice of judo.
Commentating all the major events, world championships and Olympic games, highlighting the drama, the triumph, the artistry of the sport of judo, making fans like me feel the biggest wins, the biggest losses, the surprise turns of fortune, the dominance of champions coming to an end, and new champions made. Always speaking from the heart. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor.
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And now on to the full ad reads. As always, no ads in the middle. I try to make these interesting, but if you skip them, please still check out the sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too. This episode is brought to you by Zip Recruiter, a site that connects employers and job seekers. Filling your life with people that bring out the best in you is difficult, challenging.
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Take advantage of NetSuite's flexible financing plan at netsuite.com slash lex. That's netsuite.com slash lex. This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Neil Adams. You are a five-time European champion, world champion, two-time Olympic silver medalist. Let's first go to the 1980 Olympics. Where was your mind?
What was your preparation like? What was your strategy leading into that Olympics?
That was my first Olympic Games. So my preparation was a little bit different to how it was the 84 and the 88 Olympic Games. And I'd kind of done part of the preparation as well for 76 Olympic Games. I wasn't quite old enough for those, but I was first reserve. So in 1980, I'd had four years build up.
And I was hungry and I was one of these young athletes and I see them so often now that was developing and, you know, full of, I won't say full of myself, but I was certainly confident of my ability and I wanted to conquer the world. And I'd had a couple of really tight matches with the current Olympic world champion.
So I knew that there was a possibility that I could get there for the 80 Olympics. So building up to the 80 Olympics was quite interesting because I was kind of coming through the weights and I was halfway in between the 71 kilos weight category and the higher weight category of 78 kilograms.
And I got third place at the 79 World Championships, the weight below, for the whole year at the higher weight category. Didn't lose a contest. So I'd beaten everybody in the world. And then I had to make a decision as to whether to drop weight. to the weight below because I was seeded in the weight below. It was a different seeding then.
And so I decided to drop into the weight below because I was seeded in the top four. And as it happens, I think it was probably the worst decision I made. Well, because, simply because, I mean, it was the only contest that I lost was the final of the Olympic Games in that year.
So you're a young kid, what, like 19, 20 at that time, full of confidence, vigor. So the decision to cut weight, how hard was it for you to cut weight to the 71 kg division?
I've got to say that it was the hardest because as I was going up, I was, you know, it was 73, then it was 74 kilos, 75. So I was moving through the weight category. It wasn't like I was stuck in the middle and then I dropped the odd time to compete. It was literally going up in weight by a kilo every month. And then by the time I came to a month or two before the Olympics, it was really hard.
Fought the European Championships at the higher weight category and won that. And so everybody that was on the Olympic rostrum at the Olympic Games was on my rostrum at the European Championships. So... Was it a mistake? Yeah, because I didn't have my diet sorted out. My nutrition was appalling. And when I, you know, it wasn't as kind of readily available as it is now for the nutrition.
And I would say that if anything lost me that final, other than the fact that I was fighting somebody who was terrific, you know, he was an excellent, brilliant athlete. But it definitely didn't help that my nutrition was not very good.
Okay, so you lost to Ezio Gama. There's probably a lot that we could say about that particular match. Maybe let's zoom in. What were your strengths and weaknesses, judo-wise, in that Olympics? You said you haven't really lost a match. You won the European Championship leading into it. But if you had weak spots, okay, you already said diet, but specifically on the mat in terms of judo.
I think that none of the fights lasted time going into the final, you know. So I won fairly quickly, and every match by Ippon, you know, way before time.
Do you remember how? Do you remember how you won the matches?
I won them by throw, a couple of throws for Ippon, and then an armlock for Ippon. Semi-final was an armlock against the East German, Kruger. And, yeah, just I was flying through, you know.
What were the throws? Do you remember?
Taitoshi Uchimata, my favorite kind of takuwaza, my favorite throws. And then Jujikatami as well, which was a Jujikatami roll against an East German who I'd beaten before, but always had a really tough match, but managed to beat him well.
So you had a beautiful exhibition of Japanese-type judo in the first two matches. You threw people, and then you also did the Niawaza. You unbarred a person. Great. So you're going into the final. What are the weaknesses going into the final against the Italian?
Like I say, taking nothing away from him as a great athlete and a brilliant judo man. And left, which wasn't good for me. That was definite no, because I hated fighting lefties. Still do. But I'll tell you why in a minute.
It's great.
It's one of those. But I think... As I went through the contest, we had an eight-hour break from the semifinal to the final. They took us back to the Olympic Village. Then we had to come back in, and then we had to start a warm-up again. So I kind of lost my momentum. I had to start again, and I didn't. I had a job to get going.
I got halfway through, started to rescue a dying match, and I was kind of one step, half a step behind all the way through. So I never really got into it.
So why do you hate fighting lefties? And lefties are, we should say, overrepresented in terms of the high ranks of judo. I don't know why that is.
Well, you know, the thing is about a lefty is a lefty will have more opportunity to fight righties, you know, right-handers. Because, I mean, 70% of the population are right-handers, 30% left. So they get to fight more right-handers. And it's just a fact, you know, that happens. So the thing that they hate is fighting left against left. They don't like it left against left.
Whereas a right-hander will go right against right. But the opposite is awkward for me because just simply I like to go onto the sleeve and then I like to dominate the grips. But the actual angle of the opponent wasn't what I wanted. So I had to work really hard against it.
What happened in that match?
It was a split decision in the end. And so to lose an Olympic final on a split decision is pretty, you know, it's something that's still on my mind. And, you know, I think that it's a strange one because I can still wake up that one and four years later at the Olympics because I was silver medalist at the Olympics four years later as well. And yeah, it still haunts me.
Do you sometimes wake up and think like, man, I should have eaten better? Or maybe like a specific grip that you're like, I shouldn't have taken that grip.
I do. I mean, the diet side of it, it's difficult to really admit that, isn't it? That you went to an Olympic Games. And the one thing that you really sucked at, right, was one of the most important things now at world level sport, you know, where you've got the nutrition, you know, we've got it. You would think that most people have got it sorted, but there's still people making mistakes.
There's still people that haven't got it totally sorted. Yeah.
And then there's people like Travis Stevens who I think doesn't care. He'll just have atrocious nutrition and he just makes it work. I think the way he spoke about it is you can't always control nutrition, so it's best to get good at having crappy nutrition.
That's a good way of looking at it. I never, yeah. Maybe that's what I did. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. Do you remember what you were eating? Are we talking about like candy or?
Yeah, well, I got a sweet tooth, but it wasn't really. I mean, I didn't have a lot of money at that time. particular time either, you know, so the diet wasn't steak and, you know, good nutritional salads and things like that. You know, I did what I thought was best without, you know, proper advice.
And the crazy thing is, is that I had such good advice as well, you know, when it came to kind of fitness training and things like that. We're quite ahead of our time and, you know, we've really had it nailed as far as the conditioning was concerned. The judo training as well was a way in advance because I was a good trainer and I trained more than most. I can honestly say that.
It probably got me away with a lot.
Where was your mind, so mental preparation, going into that Olympics? You said you were confident, but is there some preparation aspect behind that confidence?
I think in the early days, I didn't think I was going to lose. I never thought it was possible to lose. And I think that I went into every contest expecting to win. So when it didn't quite go my way, I didn't lose that many contests. So the only ones I lost were in the final of the World Championships or in the final of the Olympic Games. So I didn't lose that many. I never lost a European title.
I had seven golds at European championships, five at seniors, two at juniors, under 20s. And I never lost a final. And then I only lost two on a split decision. So I didn't lose that many. And my attitude was that I wasn't going to lose and I couldn't lose. So I was always surprised when something happened.
In Neil Adams, A Life in Judo, written in 1986, you wrote, ever since I can remember, I have wanted to win. It wasn't the ordinary feeling that children have when they take part in their first primary school sack race on a grass track, or even the keen determination of a young swimmer prepared to train early in the cold winter mornings in order to make it into the countryside.
With me, the desire to win was and still is as much a part of me as my arms and legs. In other words, it wasn't something I learned as I grew older, but rather it was deeply rooted in me. Perhaps this competitive instinct is the greatest difference between my public image and the view from the inside. So people see the kindness, the warmth you have, the charisma, the excitement, but there's this,
big drive to win inside you. So what's behind that? Can you just speak to that, that drive to win and how that contributed to you?
When I, when I look back now, there's a lot of years ago, we should say. It is a lot of years ago. Is that true? It's not far off. When I think about it now, because I'd like to think that I'm a different person now.
And, you know, since I've kind of calmed down, I see athletes now and I see them, you know, and their kind of arrogance, their walk and it's a strut, you know, and it's a kind of a confidence, isn't it? You know, and as we're older and as I've become older, I've calmed down. But, you know, it doesn't matter what I'm doing.
It's still that will to win, you know, and I'm much better at masking it now if I don't. But it still bothers me as much.
You're talking about like, I don't know, even just like stupid, silly things like, I don't know, a game of pool or something like this or just anything.
Yeah, I'm still trying to win, you know. Like, so my son loves to, he loves to play me at bowls because I'm useless, you know, and I just can't throw a straight bowl. So he loves playing me at that, you know, but it bugs me that I'm not better, you know. Yeah, yeah. There are certain things that I do. It really bugs me when I'm not good at it.
And I guess it's one of the reasons that, you know, long after I'd finished competition judo, people still want to train with you, you know. And even at a, like, kind of an older age, even now, if I do in a seminar or, you know, they'd still, you know, do you still do? Do you want to still go? Yeah. Can I feel it?
And one of the things that's in me is that I just, all the way up to 40 years of age, so from 30 when I finished competition up to 40, I could still train with the best. And I could still go with anybody. And then when 40 hit, kind of things started to fall off a little bit, you know, and I used to get, you know, either my hips or my legs and my knees.
And I realized that I had to pick my practices and that rankled as well. And I had to then just calm it down a little bit. Otherwise I was going to be injured and I was going to be, you know, it's not a good thing when you're getting older and you've still got the same competitive mind. But things change.
So it's still there. You get on the mat probably even now, right? You get on the mat with a world champion, you're still the current world champion. There's still a little part of you.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Could I still toss this guy? Kids these days are soft.
I do. Well, you know what? Some of these athletes, I mean, like I give you a prime example, right, is Ilias Ilias.
Yeah.
I mean, he is a monster, right? And you just, of course you couldn't, you know, because just at 60-something, you couldn't. But you like to think that you could.
You could.
You never know.
You've got to find out.
You know what you would do? What you can do is you can cause them problems, and they feel it immediately, but you'd last a minute, you know.
So you've trained with LSA artists. I've gotten a chance to train with them as well. He's a really nice guy, really great guy.
He trained with me. We were training together. Every hotel that we used to go into, we'd end up in the gym together and we'd train. And this one time he was in there and he just wanted somebody to grab and grip hold of. And so we ended up doing this kind of grappling in the middle. You're like the people doing weight training and, you know, different things, watching these two madmen doing.
I'm glad we weren't on a mat at that particular time. But good fun.
What do you think about that guy? He, like you, achieved a lot of success when he was young.
17, you imagine that, 17, 18 years of age, and he's able to compete with the men. There's not many men can do that, you know, and it doesn't happen very often. It happens later with the men. And often, they're not physically as developed as they, you know, so from me, for example, I fought Nevzorov, who was world and Olympic champion. He was the current world and Olympic champion.
They sent me to the European Championships senior at 17. Wow. And that doesn't happen very often. And I fought, I pulled Nevzorov. So I fought Nevzorov and I had him really worried, you know, because he expected without a doubt to come out, throw this kid, you know, and junior. Yeah.
And he was like thick and shredded. He was shredded.
There's a picture of him in his judogi and his judogi is just cut. And he looks the business. And there's me in this baggy, skinny kid inside this baggy thing. And the thing was is that the more he tried and the harder he tried and the more he panicked. the further it went away from him. And so, of course, he got the decision at the end and deservedly, but I worried him.
And so for me, that was a massive step forward because a year later, I was starting to fill out. And two years later, I was competing for the Olympic title. So-
I don't know if I remember, but Elias Iliadis is interesting because even at 17, I feel like he was doing big throws, like literally lifting them with his hands.
Just ripped them out of the ground. And I was saying to Nikki, my wife, and she said, what would you do now – It was different than the way you did then. I never had any pickups. That's not what we did. But you have a look at the young Ukrainians or the young Russians or the young Eastern Bloc Mongolians, and they're ripping people out the ground.
I mean, it's just different style of judo, and it just looks different. But now they're starting to do traditional style judo as well.
So can you speak to that? What are the different styles of Judo? So for you, you mentioned Uchimata, Taitoshi, these, how would you describe them? They're like these effortless, less lifting off the ground and power and like strength and more timing and position, movement, momentum, all this kind of stuff. That's more traditionally associated with Japanese Judo.
Because like for Japanese Judo, the traditional Judo, like you're supposed to throw people in a big way without much effort.
And of course, In 1990, we saw the introduction of all these Eastern Bloc countries. There were so many more. I mean, it was Soviet Union when I was competing. And then, of course, in 1990, everything changed. And then there were so many more of them out there, different countries, that their wrestling styles were introduced into judo. Put a jacket on them and let's get into judo.
Yeah.
And then you get, you know, the wrestlers and the leg picks and the double legs, single legs, double legs. And, you know, and it kind of, by 1995, you know, judo was bent over. And so it was the IOC that went to IJF, International Judo Federation. And they said, you got to change this or we're just going to have one wrestling style. It looks like wrestling with judo, with judo jackets on.
So you either change it or we're going to take one of you out.
By the way, we should sort of clarify. When we say people are bent over, that's usually how you see freestyle wrestling. Wrestlers are more bent over to defend the legs and so on. And traditional judo, people are more standing up because that's the position from which you can do the big throws and all that kind of stuff. But I think the other case to make
for banding leg grabs is a lot of people are using it for stalling and not for beautiful big throws and all that kind of stuff. So it's not just not to make it different from wrestling. It's also like you want to maximize the amount of epic
throws and uh dynamic judo and exciting stuff to watch right win by judo not not by wrestling and i think that you know the ones that were shouting about it were the wrestlers right because they they like to compete with both they like they want to do both they want to do you know their wrestling matches and and then come into judo so basically i mean what what we've said is
Then learn to do judo and there's nothing stopping you then from doing both, right? But not from the other way around. All right. So rules always dictate development. They'll always dictate which direction it goes. So if you introduce a rule that states that you cannot dive at the legs and just pick up, then... you'll have to do it standing up.
And also it increases the possibility of defense with the hips because actually, um, good defense judo wise standing up is with the hips as opposed to sticking your arms out and then sticking your backsides out there just to defend. All right. So if you attack me and I, I, I move my body in the wrong place. So I'm in the right, wrong place at the right time. So you don't hit the right target.
And then also I use my hips to You know, so again, it's a form of judo that was being lost. So now we got it back.
So let's go there. Let's speak about judo as if we're talking to a group of five-year-olds. So what is judo? What are some defining characteristics of judo as a sport, as a way, as a martial art, as a way of life, all that kind of stuff?
I think, you know, when you say it is a way of life, I mean, I think the great advantage that we have in judo, my young grandson, so I got two little boys. that are three and a half years of age, love going to our dojo. They love it, you know? So dojo was the first word that they used. It was one of the first.
So when they come to see us, you know, so to see my wife and I, you know, it's like dojo. It's not grandma, granddad, you know, it's a dojo. So dojo, they take their shoes off going into the dojo. You know, so they have respect for where they're at, you know, and I think it has that kind of feeling that like I tried to build my dojo with a feeling of reverence.
It's kind of almost peaceful, you know, so if I'm not religious, I'm not a religious person, but I like going to old churches because when I go into an old church, it doesn't matter, you know, what the religion within the church, but there's a reverence in there.
Reverence is a good word. It feels like a really special place, no matter which dojo you go to. It's just you bow and there's a calmness before the storm of battle or whatever it is.
And respect, you know. Yeah, respect. Look at the respect. You know, we were just talking about it just before we came on air. We were just saying that we very, very seldom do we have a situation where there is animosity involved. other than them fighting. So I'm not saying that they don't fight each other because sometimes it does turn into a brawl.
And at the end, two people bow off and show their respect. And one of the things, so a champion, I see people winning events and they're good judoka or they're excellent. They win world championships, might even win the Olympic Games. But a great champion for me is, is somebody who does the right thing when they lose. So when you see them lose, that's when you see the true them.
And actually, that was one of the biggest things that I had to really cope with. So when I lost that Olympic Games in Moscow and also the one in Los Angeles, the hardest thing is when the microphone's in there and you've got to... be respectful and nice and the hardest thing is to smile. But actually... Some of the great champions, you know, they'll go, well, it's just one match.
You know, I remember we've got one great champion, Agbegnenou. She's a five-time world champion, she's an Olympic champion. She's favourite as well to get this Olympic gold medal, French. What a great champion she is, you know, because she lost one of the matches. I mean, she'd come back and she'd given birth, come back after giving birth.
And everybody was going, well, was she, you know, and then she lost one of the matches on the way through. And she said, well, don't be upset. You know, it's just one match. It's just one contest. You know, next time I'm going to put it right. And she did put it right. And now she's back up there and she won the world title back. So, you know, these are great champions for me.
Yeah, I mean, that's the right way to see it, but it's also tragic to lose the Olympic Games.
Twice. Yes. It is tragic. And I do have sleepless nights.
I mean, that's the magic of the Olympic Games. Anything can happen. And your 1980 Olympics were very different from the 1984. But if we just linger on the 80, and just what we're talking about, how much you wanted to win. Do you love winning or hate losing more?
I hate losing more, but I love winning. When I won the world title a year later, and I had no doubt when I went in that day that I was going to be world champion. No doubt.
So you won the 81 World Championship. At the higher weight. At the higher, the 78. Yes. KG. Actually, can we go there? What was going through your mind? You ended up armbarring a Japanese fighter. I talked to Jimmy Pedro, a friend of yours, somebody who said you were a mentor to him for many years, and he told me a bunch of different questions to ask you.
But he said that was a really special time. That was a really special, like, dominant run you had. And especially finishing with an arbor against a Japanese player. So take me through that. What do you remember from that?
I think that it was – so my weight was better. I didn't have to lose weight. That was one thing. So the nutritional side wasn't as important, but probably, you know, it still wasn't as good as it could be, my nutrition. Although it was getting better and I was trying to eat the right things at the right time. But –
I still trained really well, and I was so confident there going into that world championships that I could win it. I had no doubt in my mind that I was going to win. But, you know, obviously, corner of your mind, you're thinking, just don't make mistakes. But, you know, this is the incredible thing is that...
Once you start to ask you, once I see contests change direction when I'm commentating, so I can see somebody who's in there just going forward, just trying to win, right? So, and that's a difference to somebody who's trying not to lose. And it's two different ways there, you know?
So sometimes when you, so when I was world champion, then I had a period of time where every time I stepped out there, I was really afraid of losing. Mm-hmm. And I think that that's what happens later on in your competitive career. You know, the great champions manage to come through that.
Teddy Rene is one of those, you know, he just, he puts it out there and he keeps beating them, you know, so they can't take it away from him. You know, it's fantastic.
So stepping on the mat every single encounter, you're trying to win. You're looking for the grips and the, with the intention to throw big, even when you're ahead on points, all that kind of stuff.
That's a really good point is that if you go ahead in a match and you look at the clock, it depends when you go ahead. So sometimes you can go ahead in the first minute and you've still got three minutes to go.
So I see the ones then that go into, I don't want to lose because they go into defensive mode and then sometimes they can lose it on penalties or something can go wrong and the other one comes on strong and then they can sneak the contest. And so it's really difficult, but when I was coaching, I was trying to always encourage that positive attitude for the full four minutes, five minutes then.
I've competed a lot in judo and jiu-jitsu. I've always hated that part of myself. When I'm up on points by a lot, you look at the clock, and it's what you do when you look at the clock. A minute and a half, you're really tired, and you kind of quit. You just defend. And I hated that part about myself. It's like that. You're saying don't do it. Yeah.
Well, as opposed to just go out in judo, that's for a big throw. Just keep going for the throw. In jiu-jitsu, it's go for the submission. Like throw caution, like win in the real way versus on points. And I hated that part of myself. I mean, mostly underneath that is cowardice induced by exhaustion.
Exhaustion's the one, isn't it? But it is, isn't it? It's a mindset as well. So actually trying to get your mind positive all the way through. So, I mean, if you listen, when I commentated now is I say I hope – That they don't change the mindset and that they keep on and they are going forward all the time, you know, and actually they're then more difficult to catch.
We had one just a couple of weeks ago and he lost in the final second of the contest. He was the only one to score. He got penalized all the way up. Two seconds to go and stepped out of the area. But he went like that, thinking the bell was just going. And the bell went one second after he actually stepped out. So he got penalized, lost the match, and lost all of the points for qualification.
So it was, you know, that's paying high price. That's paying high price.
yeah i mean that's there's a thin thin line between uh triumph and tragedy and in uh those competitions but especially at the olympic games so let's just stick on 81 world championship what did it feel like to win that world championship like uh and also getting an arm bar it's a japanese player uh jimmy told me your arms were exhausted
Yeah, I mean, you just, the thing is, is sometimes, you know, when you're going, when it's competitive as well, you know, hours is a different intensity to like, where you can take time a little bit, hours is bang, it's transitioning from standing down, you've got 10, 15 seconds to go in there, you go in 100%.
It's a bit like running, you know, full out for 10 seconds, like, and then you've got to decide then Especially if they're defending it, whether you let it go, because when you get up and your forearms are blown, you know, and you've got lactic acid in there and you've still got to grip up. Because remember, ours is about gripping as well on the jacket.
So if you can't grip up, then you can't gain the advantage. they can throw you, you know, so you have to decide. So I had a massive attack on him and we changed directions four or five times and, and then I wasn't going to let him go, but I still, you know, when I was turning him there, I had to decide, am I going to go all out for this?
And, and just, or, you know, like there has been occasions when I've kind of released it to just, you know, if I've got a minute to go and just lock out. Yeah.
So, so what you're saying on the feet, there was a change of direction, all different kinds of attempts. And then you went to the ground. And so what was that? Do you remember that decision of like, okay, am I going to finish this?
Yeah, I knew it. I just, as soon as I climbed his back and then I thought he's not going, he's not going, I'm not going to let him up. You know, so I was just changing, changing, something in my head was going, don't, don't, you know, just stick on him. And, and then it's always about pressure on the arm.
And, and I just, you know, and of course he was like that, you know, defending, you know, he was almost total bridge trying to get out of it.
Did it start in turtle?
Started in turtle because I did an attack, came back out of the attack, and then he went on to his front. And then I was on his back, and then I started the whole turn. Saw an opening and you just went for it? It was an automatic transition. So, I mean, the transitions are what we teach. Because the ones that are quicker down with the transitions are the ones that catch it.
That's our nawaza, you know, our groundwork is the transition from standing down to ground. It's very, you know, we don't have a situation where you can kind of work your way in. You are in or you're not in, you're standing, you know, so you've got to make sure that you're in. And so I had, I was just on his back like a leech and I never let him go.
I mean, yeah, so that's where the armbars, that's where the attacks on the ground, which is called nirwaza, happens in the transition. At that level, at that high world-class level.
Yeah, I mean, he was no mug either. I think he just got third place in the All Japan Championships, which is all weight categories. So he wasn't a mug, you know, he was strong. And I'd fought him once before, and I knew he was a lefty as well, which was really awkward for me.
Did he feel good?
Better for me than him. It did. It felt amazing, you know, because it was almost like all these things, disappointments and everything had kind of come to this one point where I was at last kind of champion of the world. It's everything I said as a kid that I had no idea how difficult it was going to be. So as a kid, as a 14-year-old kid, I remember saying, I'm going to be world champion.
I'm going to be the best in the world. I had no idea how difficult that was going to be.
Well, there's wisdom to that, right? Like there's power in stupidity of youth.
I like that.
Right? Yeah, it is. Just like I'm going to be a world champion. I'm going to win this without knowing how hard it is. And then once you go after it, you're trapped. You're going to have to do the work.
Yeah. Well, I mean, you see it a lot with parents as well. You know, parents, you know, our little Johnny is, you know, he's amazing and he's this, that and the other. And they have no idea what's, you know, out there. I remember the very first time I stepped out in 1974 into the European cadets. And I remember that we were fighting. I'd only ever fought in Great Britain.
I was the top, you know, I was unbeaten in the juniors, kids. And went out there and there were these different fighters out there that were treating me with total disdain. And I remember thinking... How dare they? You know, and I realized when I came back from that event, there's other people out there.
There's just a whole, you know, and there are different levels of, you know, the majority of people are just not informed as to what's out there and the different levels that there are out there.
Do you remember like a certain opponent that for the first time you felt like, holy shit? Yeah. Like somebody just gripped you up and you're like, this is, there's another level to this game.
Ezio was one of them. And I fought him, you know, and I beat him in the European Championships. I beat him in, you know, two times and then lost to him in the Olympic Games two months after I'd beaten him in the European Championship. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. So it wasn't, that made it even more difficult, right?
That's literally your nemesis there. Yeah. Wow.
So that made it more difficult. And so he, Ezio was one and getting hold of, I remember getting hold of Nishida of Japan and he had me going up and down. And I just, I thought, wow, this guy is amazing, you know, and I'd never fought, first time I ever fought Japanese. in a major tournament, you know, and, um, I felt the danger.
I always talk about the danger when we go out to Japan to train, uh, I could go probably, uh, months without getting thrown in training here in Europe. And, and I go to Japan and, you know, everybody's throwing you, you know, and that's difficult to accept. And the reason that that kind of danger and that kind of, um, um, A feeling of danger is something that puts a real edge on, you know.
And so that was the first time when I got a hold of Nishida, I thought, oh, my God, you know, this guy, you know, it didn't matter which way he was turning like that. He stretched out and I thought this, I want to do this, you know. And then I ended up fighting him again in Japan.
So that feeling of danger is really interesting. Like I've, you know, did Randori with a lot of world-class people from different parts of the world, including Ilyas Ilyadis. And like there's a certain part, like Eastern European Judo, you feel like you're screwed the whole way through. Like the gripping, you really feel it in the gripping. It's the gripping that does it.
But with Japanese, like really good Japanese style Jidoka, you don't, it's like, it's a terrifying calmness. At least the experiences I've had, you don't really feel it in the gripping. You just feel like anywhere you step, you're getting thrown.
It's a different... It's a different thing, isn't it?
It's a different thing.
So, I mean, mine was kind of a mixture. I liked it to be a mixture because there was... The gripping is definitely the key point. So if you get high-level guys that are gripping up, and I always used to put this to the referees when we were doing referee seminars when we first started them. And I'd say, how many... Because they would referee to their understanding of the match. Mm-hmm.
So they were penalizing for certain grips that were, you know, and actually, so. As an ex-athlete, high level, I would say, have you ever gripped up with high level?
All right, because if you haven't, you need to do it because then you will understand why they do certain things with the grips because these guys are like, you know, when somebody grips you and you think, you know you're going to go. When Iliadis puts his arm over your back, all right, and you know you're going to go up and over. You know you're going to go over. You know, that's it.
It's a cool feeling.
Not for me.
I understand. But it's like, I mean, because it's not, it feels way more powerful than it should. Yeah. It's weird. I don't know. You want to attribute it to strength and all that kind of stuff. I mean, people say you have like immense upper body strength, but it's probably something else. It's like technique. It's some kind of weird.
It's a mix of everything.
Just like something hardened. through lots of battles and Randori and that kind of stuff. But it's cool that humans are able to generate that kind of power. It's cool.
When I was 84 Olympics, but I'm just going to go there now just quickly. But there was, we had a freestyle wrestler. He's American, actually, but he had English nationality. So he competed for Noel Loban, his name is, and he competed for Great Britain. He got third place at the Olympics in 84. But he was training. We were training at Budokai, and he was training.
He came to do some judo and put jacket on. And, of course, he was training with some of the lower levels, and he was really handling himself well there. And then he said, I need to feel, you know, when we did randery, you know, so he did some randery with me. And I immediately thought, I got to catch it. I got to stop single leg and double leg because he was really quick, right? So strong as well.
90 something kilos. He was like, you know, he's a big guy. So I caught a sleeve, immediately caught and controlled him. And then he couldn't start, right? So he said, I needed to feel the difference. So then I thought, I better reciprocate this. So I said, well, you know, so we did the Rando and I throw him a couple of times. He said, I'm really glad we did that.
So then I said, I need to feel the difference as well. So we take the jackets off. So we took the jackets off and he was a nightmare. This guy was a nightmare and like a monster, you know, and he was like single legging me and, and, you know, it was just totally different, you know? So it was like the jacket makes a massive difference, huge difference.
to something, you know, and people think it's just a jacket that we're wearing, but it isn't. It's our only tool, actually.
Yeah, and it's a way of establishing control over another body. And it's a whole art form and a science. I don't even know if you understand it really. You understand it sort of subconsciously through time. Because there's so much involved. Because pulling on one part of the jacket pulls other parts of the jacket. The physics of that is probably insane to understand.
It's absolutely insane. And then they changed the rules for a little while, and they changed the rules so that you couldn't hold – certain grips were not allowed. You're only allowed a certain amount of time, and there were a lot of penalties for them. And then they had some of the ex-fighters into the referee commission, and so we were pushing for –
Just let them grip, you know, because that's our game. You know, that's what makes us different. You know, again, if grip up with somebody like, so they were on about Teddy Rene.
Yeah.
Teddy Rene comes out, takes the sleeve.
Yeah.
Big arm over the top. And then, you know, he throws people, right? So they were saying, yeah, but you can't stop him doing it. This guy is six foot nine. Yeah. And he is built like Garth. And not only that, he's skillful as well. And he's got that mentality of a winner. He has got that mentality of a winner there. He just wins important matches.
And he goes over the top of the grip. Where's that land now in terms of rules over the top? Because those are some of the most epic, awesome types of grips. Yeah. Just like over the top, just big grab. Yeah.
Well, as long as they throw from it, so they can take any grip, as long as you move them and then catch them kind of action-reaction, really, as long as you catch them on the move, then you can do it.
So as long as you're not using it to stall or that kind of stuff.
Yeah, you can't block out.
Yeah.
So, like, for example, if I've got dominant grip on you and I just block out and I just stop you attacking me, so then what? I get you three penalties, get you off, and you haven't done an attack. So you've got to stop that. You can't have that.
Yeah, yeah, definitely. You were the favorite to win the 1984 Olympics, but you got silver. I watched that match several times. You probably have it playing in your head. So there is a nice change of direction by your opponent, German Frank Winnicki.
Yeah.
It was a fake right Uchimata, and then to a left drops Sayonagi. How did that loss feel?
devastating is is not you know it's not enough really um because you know the strange thing was is coming into that olympics i was tired really tired so my mental state wasn't the best wasn't certainly the same as it was coming into the previous um and i I remember thinking, I just need to get this over with, and then I'm going to have a break and just have a rest.
And that's totally the wrong attitude. It's just not good for going into an Olympic Games. And so I was coming in there with a different mindset. And I remember... Every match that I had, I was winning well, but I was winning with a struggle. I'd fought Novak, and I was pretty of France, who was one of the strongest physically. That was in the quarterfinals. I beat Brett Barron by an Ippon.
I armlocked him. I... won my first match by Ipon as well. And then Michel Novak, I was fighting a France and I was lucky to win it. I was up, I would scored on him, but I was like starting to defend and just everything that I talked to you about, you know, and then just about held on and then I won. And, you know, so him and I were talking afterwards, like some years afterwards.
And he said, I was close, wasn't I? I was close.
I'd say, ah, but not close enough. I didn't mean it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I had to say it, right? Of course.
Of course. And no, he was right. And it was one of those. So it's through to the semifinal. I fought Lesak in the semifinal. And I'd fought him in the semifinal of the Worlds as well. I'd never gone time with him. You know, I'd never, I'd always beaten him fairly easily and with by upon. And that went time. So I was, you know, I was just, just glad to get it done.
And I was in the final then against Frank Vinica of Germany. And I'd beaten Vinica before, but he was just a young German coming through. And I, When I started the final, I thought, right, I've just, and I started all my techniques just that little bit off. Nothing was coordinated. Just it was just I can't really explain why it was just a little bit off.
I see it so often now with a lot of the guys that are going for second, third Olympic Games. And I see their technique just not quite there and they're struggling. And I know when they're, you know, I know what they're going through and I kind of empathize with them.
Well, it felt like you were dominating that final.
I dominated it. Yeah, I was winning. And actually, if it had gone another minute and a half, it would have been all over and I would have been Olympic champion and it would have been done. He wouldn't have battered an eyelid, right? Because he would have fought me really, really well.
Yeah.
He was surprised almost. I mean, not almost. He was very surprised and celebrating like a surprise athlete.
Yeah, jumping up and down. And you can look at that, can't you? You go, well, it wasn't Ipom, but would I have got it back? I don't know. I think that actually taking the pressure off, because that was another thing as well, pressure of being favorite. And I see that with a lot of them. And the great champions, the ones that keep coming through, Capellick.
There's a guy, you know, he can look very ordinary and then comes the big tournament and he'll win it.
The tragedy of the Olympic Games. I mean, you were the favorite and just like that, like split moment, you lost it.
Split moment. Devastating. And lived it probably not every day. But, you know, Nikki, my wife, will tell you that woken up in sweats. And, you know, and I think they contributed as well because I had a period of my life after where I was drinking too much. And, you know, and I think kind of when I look back, kind of led into...
That kind of dark period in my life, you know, and I never, ever, ever, you know, did it go through my mind, anything else, but it definitely affected me and I was on a downward kind of spiral in a lot of different ways.
And, um, would still even, you know, I mean, we, we have an amazing marriage and we have an amazing family and everything's great, but I still wake up sometimes and I'll say, I've just dreamt, you know, that, and it's the same reoccurring dream where I'm trying to get somewhere and I'm trying to put it right. You know, and I, I've got.
this chance of putting this Olympic final right, you know, in, in, in this dream, I've got a chance to doing it, but I can't get there. And the traffic stopping me or something stops me. And I, you know, and then I wake up and I'm sweating and it's, and you think, well, after all this time, that's not possible, but it is. And it happens. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, in the match itself, there's that feeling. For me, just watching it, like you're going for throws, you're almost getting there with the throws, and it's almost like he's going for a kind of crappy Uchimata, and then you're just like, you're stopping, you're blocking it, and all of a sudden, I mean, that's the beauty of the Olympics. He finds it in himself to switch. Yeah.
And that, like, against a favorite, against sort of... The great British judoka just finds the perfect drop, Sayonara.
Well, you know, his team doctor and coach, he came up to me afterwards and said, I'm just really sorry. And that's all they said is I'm just really sorry. They were sorry because, you know, obviously the obvious sadness about that, you know, and of course everybody takes their – you know, I went actually – Two and a, was it three weeks later, the German Open.
So he had to compete in the German Open three weeks later. So I went over to fight him and beat him in the final of the German Open. And it didn't do anything for me because it was a much tighter match. He was a lot closer. He had a lot more confidence coming in. So he fought me a lot differently. And then it was me pulling it back. and just managing to win in the final.
And I thought, well, that might appease, it appeased nothing, didn't do anything.
When you give your whole life to judo, just, and your love of winning, that's crazy how much the Olympic Games mean.
It means so much. And I think, you know, but I've got to say this, and this is honestly, you know, if it meant that if I'd have won that Olympic Games and it had to change my life into a different direction, which I probably would have not competed in the 88 Olympic Games then. All right.
So if it had changed my life and then I didn't have, I didn't meet my wife and I, you know, didn't have my family that I've got now. I wouldn't swap that, what I've got now, for anything.
Well, part of the demons that you've gotten to know because of those losses is part of probably the central reason that made you the man you are. A legend of the sport. You could have been not that. Because an Olympic gold is just an Olympic gold.
Yeah. And it is, isn't it? You know, and I think that there's a lot of Olympic champions and world champions that win and then are forgotten. And I said to Nikki, I said, my wife, I said, I don't want to be forgotten and I want to be remembered. So if I'm going to do anything, anything I do, if I'm going to do commentary or whatever it is, or coaching, I want to do coaching to a high level.
And I want to commentate at a high level. I remember the first commentary I ever did, it was terrible. And I just thought, I've got to do better than this. And I thought, I need to do it well. And I've got to do it professionally.
So in the book, Game of Throws, you have a chapter titled Lessons in Losing. So what are some of the lessons here? What are some of the deeper lessons you've pulled out of losing?
I think great champions are made up of the people that handle it in the right way. And you could say, well, I don't like losing. And you could throw your dummy out the pram and you can be a bad loser in front of everybody. And actually, people pick up on that very, very quickly. You know what it's like in broadcasting, right? Somebody has a bad word to say about somebody.
But actually, the ones that endear themselves to you are the ones that handle it in the right way, the correct way. It doesn't mean that you've got to like it. I didn't like it. And I thought that I handled it certainly in later years in the right way. And I like to see athletes do it in the right way, you know, and I think that it's a make or break situation. It's not all the contests they win.
It's the one that they lose and then how they pick themselves up and handle themselves after. So I think that that is a big one for me. And also I, I mean, I went through, you know, obviously a later divorce, and that was difficult on my son, really difficult on Ashley.
And then I was – and I think that some of that was the fact that I was, you know, kind of – I wasn't drinking all the time, but I was drinking in excess at the wrong times, you know. And I think that that's what a lot of people do sometimes is that – They use it for the wrong reasons, you know, and I used to hear it.
I hear it now all the time, you know, and it's that, you know, I need to knock the edge off and I need to just forget. And I need to, you know, and you need to be in a fuzzy place for a while. And I had a lot of time in a fuzzy place and I needed to get rid of that, you know, and I needed to clear my head.
Where was that place? Some of the lower points in your life that you've reached mentally.
I think, you know, definitely, you know, the fact that my marriage, first marriage didn't work, you know, and that was, you know, it's a mix of things that, you know, between us and, and then, you know, so that's not where I wanted to be at the time. And yeah, the effects that it had on my son. And it took a long time for him then to come around and to trust me again, you know, and to have belief.
He always had belief in me, but to trust me again. And then I think that that was low. And I think that, you know, when I look back, is that a lot of my bad decisions were when I was in that fuzzy kind of haze and that it got progressively worse. That got progressively worse to the degree where it was, you know, trying to hide it and trying to hide how much.
And I was kind of a functioning kind of drunk. You know, I think you could probably say that. And, you know, I was functioning. I was still able to – I was still training most days. crazily enough, you know, I was training to kind of mask it and cover it. And that was probably my savior that I was still, you know, because I remember I said to my wife, I said to Nikki, I'm probably the fittest.
If I'm, you know, a drunk, then I'm a fittest drunk in the world. She said, yeah, you probably are actually, you know, I was in great condition for a drunk.
So the, the, the fuzzy haze, where was your mind? Did you have periods of depression?
I had periods of depression. I can honestly say that my depression wasn't that bad. Although I did, you know, when it's like anything that gives you an up, you know, it gives you an even bigger down, doesn't it? You know, and so I hated that feeling and also hated myself for letting it happen because I have got this really bizarre feeling
I don't know whether you can call it a power, but I have the ability to be able to say, stop. And I can just, and that's what I did in the end. In the end, there was an incident when I was working for Belgian judo and there was an incident. It was Christmas. It was, I tell you exactly the day. It was 20th of December and me and a Belgian coach, we got absolutely hammered.
But we were at the wrong place and he got noticed. And so I remember they pulled me up in front of this board and I looked down at these guys and half of them were people I didn't want to be in that situation with. You know, they're not people that I respected and they're not people that I trusted.
Stopped.
You just saw the moment and said, stop. Stop. So that fuzzy place, what advice could you give to people about how to overcome that dark place, the depression, whether it has to do with drinking or not?
I think if it's to do with drinking, all I can say is that the two days or a week into not drinking, you'll feel different. You know, it'll make a physical difference and you'll like that physical difference.
Mm-hmm.
And then from a mental perspective as well, because I think that, you know, you have a massive downer, you know, and I think that that must be because of drugs as well, because I had a situation with my brother, you know, he was like, you know, professional wrestling and the drugs was an element there. And, you know, so I'd never touched a drug or even seen one in my life before.
But, you know, I'd let the alcohol side go too far and then decided never to do that. So then I guess I had people ringing me up, you know, saying, you know, how can we stop? You know, so when they say, can I have a word? Can I discuss something with you? And I know then what they want to discuss with me, you know. And the thing is, is that I would say, you know, if you stop...
then feel the effects of it and it will make a difference to your everyday life. And that will make a massive difference. And I think about anybody who kind of, you know, is down all the time is to find the cause of what's pushing you down. You know what I mean? And try and attack that. I mean, because it's never, somebody once said to me, they said, whatever you got, you know,
We've got something special. I mean, we have a great life and I've had a great competition record. It could have been better, but it was great. But I've had success with my business and we're still out there and we have a great life. We travel all the world. And there's people out there that would live in your house at the drop of a hat, wherever you are. They drive your car everywhere.
No matter what car it is, some people haven't got a car. And whatever food you're having and you're moaning about food, there's somebody out there that would take that and gladly eat that. So there's always somebody worse off than you. And I think that we tend to sometimes look at the things that we haven't got rather than the things we have got.