Charlie is a Protestant, and Michael Knowles is a Catholic. What started off as a free-ranging discussion at AmFest became a spirited debate about two different approaches to Christianity, which the audience got deeply invested in as well. The two also discuss the origins of the MAGA movement, what they've each seen on college campuses the past year, and more. Join Charlie's interviews in-person at next year's AmFest by becoming a subscriber at members.charliekirk.com.Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Chapter 1: What sparked the debate between Charlie and Michael?
Michael Knowles joins the program, everybody. This is what people said was the best interview from AmericaFest. Michael Knowles decided to be a little aggressive, a little uppity, a little chippy, where he decided to poke fun at Protestants, and we held the line, I think, pretty well. This was unscripted, not planned, where I guess we very in a friendly way debate
Chapter 2: What are the key differences between Catholicism and Protestantism?
Catholicism versus Protestantism? Who won this debate? Email me, freedom at charliekirk.com. I want to hear from you. And it goes on for like 30 minutes. So become a member, members.charliekirk.com. That is members.charliekirk.com. Buckle up, everybody. Here we go. Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks. I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA.
We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of The Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals.
Learn how you could protect your wealth with Noble Gold Investments at noblegoldinvestments.com. That is noblegoldinvestments.com. It's where I buy all of my gold. Go to noblegoldinvestments.com. Michael, welcome.
It's wonderful to be with you, Charlie, and with all of you. So can I, before you introduce, before you do anything, it kills me to say anything sincere and nice about you, but I think I have to. When we were setting this up, you know, your producer, Andrew, was joking with me because I said, I think the time will work this day.
He goes, Michael, you know, it's a big honor to be invited on the show. I said, bro, you're kidding. But it is legitimately a great honor to be on the show right now when you, as much as just about anyone in the country, won this election for President Trump. It's unbelievable. It's like President Trump and then a handful of people, and you're one of those people.
Thank you, and it's the team that deserves the credit at Turning Point. It's not me. The team believed, and we worked hard, and we did something that would be called very risky, but we hired 1,500 people in a couple states, and I did 25 campus stops and tours, and it's really amazing.
We have the polling to now show it of how the states and the campuses that we actually hit on the precinct level moved by an average of 15 points, and then we had a control group of the campuses we didn't hit that only moved by one point. And so it goes to show how turning point action helped move the youth vote.
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Chapter 3: How has the political landscape shifted on college campuses?
So they don't know. If there is to be a future, it needs to involve both men and women. That's kind of how the future is made. And so to hear that, Hillary, when she used that slogan, she thought it was just a sweet girl power kind of line. But men were listening too. And women were listening too, by the way.
Women who have sons, women who have husbands, women who have brothers and fathers, they were listening to that too. So nasty. There's an old line that people used to say. They said, there will never be a war between the sexes because everyone is sleeping with the enemy. And I don't know that that's true anymore. I don't know. These days, it's a little more confused. But there is some truth.
The fundamental things apply as time goes by. A kiss is still a kiss. A sigh is still a sigh. I think people are recognizing Men and women are really complementary to one another. The era of men being buffoons and women being absolutely perfect, the Homer Simpson era, the Ray Romano era, I think that is passé. I think it's dated. And wherever the culture is now on these questions, it ain't that.
And on the campuses.
In particular, there's a cultural vibe shift where – let's just take the MAGA hat. Some of these folks are wearing MAGA hats. That MAGA hat – you know this, Michael. In 2016, 2017, it was like the ultimate symbol of rebel energy. And now it's still that, but it's – It's way easier to wear that hat in public. In fact, it's desirable and it's cool. How did that happen?
Because now, previously, the media could say, this is a symbol of white supremacy. This is a symbol of violence against... Tansmanian women of color, I don't know, whatever is minor, you know, group. But we know that isn't true now. The media have lost a lot of their credibility. The news now happens on X and a handful of other places. And most people voted for Trump. So we know that.
I mean, I don't mean to belabor the point of the popular vote. As a matter of law, it doesn't matter. But in the public consciousness, it really, really matters. Most people want to wear that hat. So I've had my OG MAGA hat since 16. It was the white one with the blue font. It's great.
I brought it to Havana with me, and I snuck it out and took a picture in front of Che Guevara in Revolution Square. But you had to, in those days, forget about Revolution Square. On a college campus, you'd have to sneak it out. Oh, yeah.
And now it's just – And now we gave out like 25,000 of them. Yeah.
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Chapter 4: What is the current state of the Republican Party?
Chapter 5: How are cultural changes influencing politics today?
So you had the president's back throughout this entire process. Other people waxed and waned, and that's fine. I mean, that's their prerogative. Why did you continue to support President Trump resolutely throughout the process? Because you were kind of part of this—and obviously I was—this merry band of rebels.
I mean, is it that you just kind of loved being kind of the high IQ troll or was it just kind of like, you know, it's just because Michael, to your great credit and you deserve credit, is after January 6th, all this, you were like, no, I'm not going to say something bad about Trump. Like Michael is like super MAGA and has always been. Why? I mean, explain that because you were not just early.
You were there on new day one, January 7th, 2021.
That's a great way actually to look at it. But part of it is because I saw what Trump was and what he was doing and what he signified early on. Not immediately. When he came down the golden escalator, I had my doubts. I had my questions at the very least. I wasn't sure. Who knew? This guy had maybe sort of run for president in 2000. He made some noise in 2012. 2016, I said, I don't know.
Let's just pay attention. Seems kind of crazy. I'm a New Yorker. I've been aware of Donald Trump since I was in the womb, basically. And so I said, OK, well, let's hear him out. And then I realized. Every time they said he was crazy about something, he was upsetting some orthodoxy. This just isn't how it's done. He's going to go nowhere. I noticed that he would win politically.
I noticed that his policies advanced the common good in ways that some of his predecessors were not able to do. I realized the guy, and I don't care what you want to say. I don't care if he's writing long dissertations every night before bed. I don't care if he's just moving by his gut. It's probably a little bit more of the latter, though he's obviously a very intelligent and educated man as well.
I realized this guy was just getting things right. He was offering a legitimate alternative on policies. He was throwing out some of the desiccated nonsense that had become GOP orthodoxy. And he just had – you mentioned high IQs and education. Let's use a very fancy word. The man has thumos. The man has – the Greek word for thumos. spiritedness for the chest.
You know, this guy's got it in spades. And then the January 6th thing, I thought, was just so convenient for not only Trump's enemies on the left, but his enemies on the right to finally throw him overboard. And I thought it was so cynical in many ways. And some people were legitimately kind of duped by it.
Can I interject on that? It was also all of you that kept on desiring the truth for January 6th. We have won that argument and they are running from the hills, by the way. They are running for the hills. Where... How many federal agents were there? Who planted the pipe bombs? Did you see?
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Chapter 6: What advice does Michael have for spreading Catholicism?
Hey, come on. You can't do that to me. Hold on.
No, this is interesting, though. Why is it that Catholics acknowledge divine books that Jews themselves don't think are divine? The keepers of the Torah don't even agree with your canon. Like the Wisdom of Ben Sirah, 1 and 2 Maccabees, according to rabbinical teaching, those are not divinely inspired books. Yet Catholics say we like those. Why?
Yeah, well, so there are a few reasons. One, that the Douay-Rheims, which is the Catholic Bible, is based on the Septuagint. The Masoretic texts, which come later, are the ones that the Protestant Bible and the more recent Catholic Bibles are based on. There is some discrepancy, at least in numbering of certain things.
But also, I mean, you say, well, if rabbinical Jews think one thing, why don't you think that? And I'd say, I don't know, because we're a different religion. No, but hold on a second. No, no, no.
But no, we're the inheritors of the Torah as referenced by people that were schooled in that. And the Tanakh. So Protestantism has an identical mirrored image of the Torah and the Tanakh. And again, in traditional rabbinical teaching, they do not believe those books are divinely inspired. I know the answer and you're not going to like it, but that's fine.
It's because in those books, it allows for a lot of the practices of the Catholic Church and gives justification for a lot of that stuff. to get too deep in this. I actually think the world is a better place because of faithful Catholics.
I've spoken out with great criticism of how evangelicals remained quiet here in Arizona on Prop 139 while the Catholic diocese was so courageous on the fight for life while evangelicals were silent. I want a better Catholic church, and I...
I personally would not be able to be part of an institution with the figurehead with a worldview that is so corrupted and opposite of what I think the Bible teaches. And I wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt. I'd be like, no, I'm actually not part of this. I'm leaving. But today you're part of the United States, but the head of the United States is one of the worst presidents we ever had.
But you don't leave the country.
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Chapter 7: How does one reconcile faith with modern political ideology?
But an unjust law is no law at all. It's a species of law. Okay, an unjust pope is not a pope. Yeah, but... But what's on... There's nothing unjust about the pope talking about, like, climate change. You just don't pay attention to it. You know what I mean?
Okay, so you just like you pick you pick and choose what it's like a buffet line. No, I like what he says about this, but not about that. But yes, he is the inheritor of St. Peter.
No, no, I mean, like, no, no, the papal authority is that he speaks infallibly when speaking ex cathedra on faith and morals doesn't talk about climate change at all. So the Pope can say things that are crazy. Yes, this is perfect. And then why have one? In order to speak infallibly ex cathedra on faith and morals.
Okay, so that has not happened since what, Vatican II? No, it's a little bit. When was the last time the Pope spoke ex cathedra?
Well, Vatican II is part of the Magisterium.
When was the last time? Like 50, 60 years?
The last probably ex cathedra infallible teachings from a Pope were probably Pope Pius IX, you know, like 150 years ago.
Okay, so then therefore there really is no functional use for a Pope for 150 years.
No, no. He's the leader of the church. Exactly.
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