The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Thu, 1 May 2025
Chuck Todd begins with a critical assessment of the Democratic Party's first 100 days under the Trump administration, noting widespread discontent among Democratic voters with party leadership. He examines the positioning of potential 2028 contenders, with AOC emerging as Bernie Sanders' heir apparent, Buttigieg and Pritzker carefully laying groundwork, and Gavin Newsom attempting to distance himself from his progressive reputation. He highlights Arizona's Ruben Gallego as a potential breakthrough national figure while acknowledging the Democratic brand remains problematic with many voters despite individual politicians' popularity.Then he dives into a fascinating conversation with "Black Mirror" creator Charlie Brooker, who discusses his dystopian anthology series through the lens of human response to technology rather than the technology itself. Brooker reflects on social media's evolution from optimistic beginning to profit-driven outrage machine, and shares insights on artificial intelligence's most pressing concerns: job displacement and algorithmic management. The conversation covers wide-ranging topics including healthcare differences between the US and UK, AI's impact on education and emotional connections, and the accelerating pace of technological change that feels increasingly destabilizing. Throughout, Brooker maintains his characteristic blend of dark humor and thoughtful analysis about our relationship with technology, even touching on how the COVID pandemic influenced his creative perspective. The episode concludes with "Ask Chuck," where Todd addresses listener questions about the potential echo chamber effect in local news, the potential fracturing of the Republican Party, and speculation about Trump's relationship with stock market fluctuations.00:00 Introduction02:15 The first 100 days report card for the Democratic Party03:00 Democratic voters are not happy with party leadership04:30 Which democratic leaders have performed well?07:20 AOC has become the heir apparent to Bernie Sanders10:30 Pete Buttigieg, JB Pritzker teeing up a 2028 run?12:45 Gavin Newsom is trying to distance himself from his progressive brand15:00 Ruben Gallego could break through on the national stage16:30 The Democratic brand is still toxic with voters18:25 Charlie Brooker joins the show! 18:45 Is Charlie the 21st century George Orwell 20:25 Is Black Mirror meant to be a warning? 22:25 The show isn't about technology, it's about the human response to these tools 25:25 First episode concept came from a podcast Charlie listened to 28:25 The concept of paying for healthcare is foreign outside of America 29:55 Facebook and X were fun at first, but then they turned up the dials for anger and grievance for profit 31:55 How long did Charlie have Black Mirror as an idea before it came to fruition? 33:55 Parallels between Black Mirror and The Twilight Zone?36:00 We thought social media would be great for society… then it turned out quite differently 37:00 How worried should we be about AI? 40:15 The worry with AI will be two things. Will it take my job, and will it be my boss? 41:45 Has Charlie used AI to help with writing on Black Mirror? 42:15 Charlie's writing 44:00 People will be willing to pay more for human customer service rather than dealing with AI 46:30 Is Charlie obsessed with privacy? 48:00 Technology will always put someone out of work 50:15 Will we have to teach spelling in the future? Have we taken away something from society? 52:45 Robocop was an influence on Black Mirror 54:45 The show deals with futuristic concepts, but also feels like it's taking place in the present 56:30 Is Charlie extrapolating the future on his own, or does he talk to experts? 58:00 The inspiration behind the honeybee episode 59:45 Will we see AI avatars teaching history? 1:02:15 People get emotionally attached to AI companions 1:04:30 Will AI conclude that humans are a threat to progress 1:05:15 Technology brought back the dire wolf from extinction 1:06:30 We're living through a period of accelerated technology 1:09:00 The pace of change feels dizzying and destabilizing 1:10:15 Whose to blame for this moment, tech CEO's or politicians? 1:11:00 Could AI rewrite history? 1:15:30 How did the COVID pandemic affect Charlie's thinking? 1:19:00 How long will Charlie continue making more Black Mirror?1:23:15 Chuck’s thoughts on interview with Charlie Brooker1:24:00 Ask Chuck1:24:45 Does local news just become an echo chamber for that community?1:28:10 If the Republican party fractures, who would remain in the “traditional” wing of the party?*1:30:25 Is Trump manipulating the stock market so wealthy people can buy the dip?
Chapter 1: What are the first 100 days of the Democratic Party under Trump?
And that should be up and running without any problems, without you having to manually refresh very soon. And before I get to my guest, and I tell you, this is going to be a fantastic interview. You're going to love it. It's Charlie Brooker. He is the creator of Black Mirror. The amazing Netflix series that's sort of, you know, near term, the futuristic. Some people think it's all dystopian.
What's interesting is. I will tell you this. I had a lot of thoughts of what I thought motivated Charlie Brooker on various shows. I bet you as Black Mirror fans, you will assume some things that you will find out are not true. Right.
the, what, uh, what motivated him, what were his, what were his, uh, creative, uh, mentors, if you will, both individuals and of different movies and shows, uh, just trust me, you're going to love this interview. Uh, you're going to love him and you're going to learn a lot about what it takes to create Black Mirror, um, in the mind of Charlie Brooker. It is just, I am, uh,
I would have him on weekly if he had the time to do it. And there's no doubt, as you'll find out in this interview, this dude would be a lot of fun to be in a writer's room with. That's for sure. But before I get to there... I've spent a lot of time this week talking about the first 100 days of Donald Trump.
But there is an opposition party that's out there, and I thought it would be worth doing the first 100 days report card, if you will, for the Democrats. Because as bad as things have gone for Donald Trump, this has not been a seesaw. As Trump goes down, Democrats go up. That has not been the case. In fact, the hallmark of all of the polling you've seen is even as Donald Trump's going down,
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Chapter 2: Why is AOC considered the heir apparent to Bernie Sanders?
the brand of the Democratic Party has yet to improve in the minds of voters. And arguably, that's a pretty honest assessment, right? What have the Democrats done to improve their brand? They really haven't done anything yet. If anything, they're still trying to figure it out. It isn't clear where this party is headed. What is universally clear, though, is that the D.C.
leadership of the Democratic Party is not very popular at all, whether it's Akeem Jeffries, Chuck Schumer. They're feeling some pressure. I've talked to some donors who are very frustrated with Jeffries. Don't understand why Nancy Pelosi is still sort of lingering over the leadership of the House as much.
I had one one prominent donor say to me over the weekend, I'm glad Nancy Pelosi was there to do what was needed to be done with Joe Biden's candidacy. But. But her shadow over the party is only hurting Jeffries in the long run and is only hurting the party's brand in the long run.
If the party is going to try to gear itself to the future, its leadership of the previous 20 years probably needs to step aside completely. So that is that you certainly hear that. Obviously, Chuck Schumer has been feeling the heat. He's probably getting more of the arrows than most, considering he had to make a tough decision.
which was whether to shut down the government or sort of let Donald Trump have have a situation that wasn't going to be popular with the base of his party. I do think politically he made the right call. He just communicated the idea extraordinarily poorly since he spent one day talking up the idea of orchestrating a shutdown and then immediately backtracking on that front.
But his political calculus about what the right call was, I think has turned out to be right, which is don't get in Donald Trump's way if he's in the middle of hurting himself politically. That's been the James Carville strategy. So I would say if you were going to give grades, the D.C. leadership is is is not getting good grades. I don't think they're getting passing grades yet.
Now, the question is, who individually has had a good first hundred days in the Democratic Party? Well, probably the best way to judge that is you is you look at it through the prism of future elections and the prism of of. trying to position yourself as a leader or a player at the table, trying to figure out what is the Democratic Party going to look like?
What is the Democratic brand going to be? So immediately, when you look at people who have made an early effort to make an impression, Cory Booker, he certainly has decided to take matters more into his own hands. He did the 25 hour filibuster, which got a reasonable amount of attention. In fact, When he timed it, if you recall, I thought it was fascinating when he timed it.
He timed it during the election and day of that first special election in April, which had the Wisconsin election and those two specials in Florida. So it was sort of feeding the Democratic base as they were getting excited about winning some of these special elections, overperforming in some of these special elections. And here he was sort of hijacking the D.C. message machine for a day.
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Chapter 3: How does Charlie Brooker view his role in relation to Orwell?
Both Cory Booker and Chris Murphy, as far as their own standing, have made progress in where they're trying to get to. I don't know if they're the right answer. We're going to find out, right? Cory Booker could not get traction when he ran for president in 2020. Maybe that'll change this time, but some of the efforts he's making, you can see what he's doing, and it makes sense.
Chris Murphy, same thing, gets a little less attention than Cory Booker, but you see what he's trying to do. It may be just the Washington baggage. You know, I'm convinced that the Democratic primary electorate come 2027, 2028 is just going to care about two things, new and electable. Now, electable is going to be a debate. Right.
Chapter 4: Is 'Black Mirror' a warning about technology?
Everybody has a different version of who's electable and what's electable. But new, I think, is going to be a big deal. Right. On the other first hundred days, Bernie Sanders and AOC. Right. Obviously, I think Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has probably had, for her personal politics, a very strong first 100 days, right? She's already in line.
There's no question anymore of who's the heir apparent to the Bernie movement. It is her. It is not going to be Ro Khanna. It is not going to be anybody else. It is going to be her. It is hers unless somehow she decides not to run for president. Now, she's got two options sitting in front of her in 2028. If she chooses not to run for president, she could run for Chuck Schumer's Senate seat.
As I told you in a previous during the Dan Goldman preview there when I said keep an eye on him for the future. I believe, you know, I don't believe Schumer ends up running for reelection by 2028. Right. That just you sort of see where you kind of see where that's going. And I think he could be vulnerable in a primary if he's not careful on 2028.
I don't think that's the way he would want to go out. So, you know, I don't know this. Nobody knows this. He's certainly been a very successful New York politician. So I'm not going to sit here and say that he should know when the time to go is. But I would be I certainly if I were a betting man, and as many of you know, I do enjoy a fan duel, a fan, a fan duel app every now and then.
I certainly would be betting against him running for re-election in 28. So the question is, does does she want to be a constant long term player in D.C. or does she want to? Go for it and seeing if she can win the nomination. I'm skeptical she can win the nomination. I'm not sure. I go back to electability. Will she be able to pass the electability test, which is, again, very subjective?
But I think the perception and there's going to be we'll see what the evidence shows. But I think she starts with a perception that she's going to have a hard time winning in places like Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. But I'm going to just always be careful to under I'm not going to undersell her. She is what I like to describe as a very talented political athlete.
And sometimes, you know, you look at the NFL draft and you'll see sort of, oh, somebody's got his arms are too short or he doesn't have big enough hands and all this stuff. But they're just so good at being a football player. They overcome whatever physical challenges. Trait that that that they should have that they don't have.
And so I feel the same way about politicians is that, you know, they can be such good campaigners. They can overcome. Maybe it's a character flaw. Maybe they overcome an ideological issue, whatever it is. that you can overcome these things if you're talented enough. So I am I'm hesitant to assume AOC can overcome these things. I think she's proven to be a very talented, a talented politician.
And I'm just watching her go from activist to elected activist to start trying to have more say, you know, both figuring out how to balance inside game versus outside game.
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Chapter 5: What are the implications of AI on jobs and creativity?
Chapter 6: How does healthcare differ between the US and UK?
Chapter 7: What is the future of AI in our emotional connections?
Chapter 8: How has the COVID pandemic influenced Charlie Brooker's perspective?
I'm an amazing team around me that has been able to get me into some social spaces that I I had not been to before, including my new and growing audience on YouTube. Like and subscribe. Do I say that enough? So I appreciate that. Apple Podcasts, Spotify. By the way, I tweeted out, we know some of you who get Apple, we're fixing that and feed issue.
And that should be up and running without any problems, without you having to manually refresh very soon. And before I get to my guest, and I tell you, this is going to be a fantastic interview. You're going to love it. It's Charlie Brooker. He is the creator of Black Mirror. The amazing Netflix series that's sort of, you know, near term, the futuristic. Some people think it's all dystopian.
What's interesting is. I will tell you this. I had a lot of thoughts of what I thought motivated Charlie Brooker on various shows. I bet you as Black Mirror fans, you will assume some things that you will find out are not true. Right.
the, what, uh, what motivated him, what were his, what were his, uh, creative, uh, mentors, if you will, both individuals and of different movies and shows, uh, just trust me, you're going to love this interview. Uh, you're going to love him and you're going to learn a lot about what it takes to create Black Mirror, um, in the mind of Charlie Brooker. It is just, I am, uh,
I would have him on weekly if he had the time to do it. And there's no doubt, as you'll find out in this interview, this dude would be a lot of fun to be in a writer's room with. That's for sure. But before I get to there... I've spent a lot of time this week talking about the first 100 days of Donald Trump.
But there is an opposition party that's out there, and I thought it would be worth doing the first 100 days report card, if you will, for the Democrats. Because as bad as things have gone for Donald Trump, this has not been a seesaw. As Trump goes down, Democrats go up. That has not been the case. In fact, the hallmark of all of the polling you've seen is even as Donald Trump's going down,
the brand of the Democratic Party has yet to improve in the minds of voters. And arguably, that's a pretty honest assessment, right? What have the Democrats done to improve their brand? They really haven't done anything yet. If anything, they're still trying to figure it out. It isn't clear where this party is headed. What is universally clear, though, is that the D.C.
leadership of the Democratic Party is not very popular at all, whether it's Akeem Jeffries, Chuck Schumer. They're feeling some pressure. I've talked to some donors who are very frustrated with Jeffries. Don't understand why Nancy Pelosi is still sort of lingering over the leadership of the House as much.
I had one one prominent donor say to me over the weekend, I'm glad Nancy Pelosi was there to do what was needed to be done with Joe Biden's candidacy. But. But her shadow over the party is only hurting Jeffries in the long run and is only hurting the party's brand in the long run.
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