In this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum reflects on the 80th anniversary of the end of World War II in Europe, examining how postwar reconciliation—not battlefield triumph—became America’s true finest hour. He contrasts that legacy with Donald Trump’s recent bombastic Victory Day statement, urging a rededication to the values that built a more peaceful world. David is then joined by The Atlantic’s Anne Applebaum to discuss the astonishing and brazen corruption of the Trump presidency, how authoritarian regimes seek to break institutions, and the hardship of losing friendships to politics. Finally, David answers listener questions on fostering open-minded political dialogue among polarized high-school students, why America hasn’t developed a strong worker-based political movement like its European counterparts, and how to think about class in modern U.S. politics. He also weighs in on the risk of data suppression under the Trump administration and reflects on whether his long-held conservative values still belong to the political right. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/podsub. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Full Episode
Hello, and welcome to Episode 5 of The David Frum Show. I'm David Frum, a staff writer at The Atlantic. This week, I'll be joined by my Atlantic colleague and dear friend, Anne Applebaum, one of the world's leading authorities on democracy and authoritarianism, kleptocracy, and the rule of law. I am so looking forward to the conversation with Anne, but first, some thoughts.
This podcast will post in the week that the world commemorates the 80th anniversary of the end of the Second World War in Europe. The Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler committed suicide on April 30th, 1945. After his death, the German armies in Europe, one by one, began to approach the Allied commanders to surrender in Italy, in northwestern Europe.
Finally, on May 7th, the overall command structure of the German armies approached the Supreme Allied Commander, Dwight Eisenhower, to discuss an instrument of surrender for all the remaining German forces. The original instrument of surrender was rejected by the Soviet army. It didn't mention the Soviet Union explicitly, and they had some other objections to it.
And so the final instrument was negotiated during the day of May 8th, was agreed shortly before 10 o'clock PM on the 8th of May, and went into effect a little past 11 PM on the 8th of May. 11 p.m. May 8th was, of course, the early morning in Moscow, May 9th. And so this chain of events is left ever afterwards, a question mark.
But what is the exact and proper date of the end of the Second World War in Europe, whether it's May 8th, as it was in Berlin and where the Allied armies were, or May 9th, as it was in Moscow? Of course, the war itself would continue for more months.
As the Germans surrendered in the West, American forces in the Pacific were fighting a brutal battle on the island of Okinawa, one of the bloodiest battles of the whole war, certainly I think the bloodiest battle of the American Pacific campaign.
And no one knew on the day that the Nazis surrendered how long that war in the Pacific would last, except for a handful of Americans who were party to the secret of the atomic bomb,
Most Americans, most people assumed that there was probably another year of fighting ahead, an invasion of Japan and many thousands, maybe many hundreds of thousands of American casualties and allied casualties too, because the American army that entered Japan would be supported by Commonwealth forces, Australia, British, Canadian. But the atomic bomb did explode.
Japan did surrender and the war came to an end, a final and formal end. with the surrender ceremony in Tokyo Bay on the 2nd of September, 1945. So this is a time of commemoration. And in this time, the President of the United States, Donald Trump, issued a very strange post about the event on the 8th of May.
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