The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
532. A Dialogue So Dangerous, It Just Might Bring You Wisdom | John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall
24 Mar 2025
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall. They discuss the vertical dimension, proper orientation within the hierarchy of values, the normative versus the ethical, and what makes something more “real” in a pragmatic and philosophical sense. John Vervaeke is an associate professor of psychology & cognitive science at the University of Toronto. John publishes and conducts research on the nature of intelligence, rationality, wisdom & meaning in life emphasizing relevance realization, non-propositional kinds of knowing & 4E cognitive science. Jordan Hall, previously known as Jordan Greenhall, is an entrepreneur and systems thinker with a focus on the intersection of technology, culture, and governance. Hall co-founded DivX, Inc., a pioneer in digital video technology, where he served as CEO and Executive Chairman through its early growth and IPO. Prior to that, he was a key figure at MP3.com, helping to revolutionize the digital music space. His early career also includes a brief stint as a lawyer, having earned his law degree from Harvard before transitioning into technology leadership and investment. This episode was filmed on December 27th, 2024. | Links | For Jordan Hall: On X https://x.com/jgreenhall?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor On YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMzT-mdCqoyEv_-YZVtE7MQ For John Vervaeke: On X https://x.com/drjohnvervaeke?lang=en On Youtube https://www.youtube.com/user/johnvervaeke Website https://johnvervaeke.com/ Find John Vervaeke on Lectern http://lectern.teachable.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Full Episode
Voluntary self-sacrifice is the uniting metanarrative. And that works to unite people psychologically, and it works to unite them socially. I'll challenge you.
I think the metanarrative isn't self-sacrifice. I think it's sacrifice in service of getting to what is most real.
I've been trying to figure out how conscience operates psychologically. One of the things that might distinguish AI systems from human beings is this vertical dimension.
I think that what drives self-destruction is self-deception. So if at the heart of evil is self-destruction, why would any system destroy itself?
That does in fact have an inevitable collapse, a downward spiral into chaos.
This goes back to the idea of conscience, you know. So maybe once you get your goals set, the perceptual systems, are they going to lay out the landscape for navigation? Well, that's a very hard question.
Yeah, well, they get harder as you go up the ladder. Today's conversation is an extension and continuation of a series of conversations I've had, most particularly, I would say, with John Vervaeke, who joins me today, and also with Jonathan Paggio. And those conversations really center on
specifying the foundational principles of iterable society and stable psyche, that's a decent way of thinking about it, or specifying more clearly and understandably the apex towards which systems of value And that's a very complicated set of problems, and so it takes a lot of conversations to make progress. But I found I've been able to make a lot of progress with John and Jonathan.
They're also both lecturing, by the way, as well as me, for Peterson Academy. And so one of the things Peterson Academy is doing is aggregating a group of thinkers who are pursuing this problem some directly like John and Jonathan, some more peripherally.
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