Up First from NPR
Defense Department Leak, Mourning Francis, SCOTUS Considers Opting Out
Tue, 22 Apr 2025
Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth continues to find himself mired in controversy. Also — tributes have poured in from around the world remembering Pope Francis as a leader who advocated for the poor and the dispossessed, and the Supreme Court considers a case brought by parents who want to pull their kids out of public school classes because of objections to some learning materials. Want more comprehensive analysis of the most important news of the day, plus a little fun? Subscribe to the Up First newsletter.Today's episode of Up First was edited by Andrew Sussman, Ryland Barton, Krishnadev Calamur, Arezou Rezvani and Janaya Williams.It was produced by Ziad Buchh, Nia Dumas and Christopher Thomas.We get engineering support from Arthur Laurent. And our technical director is Carleigh Strange.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
Chapter 1: What controversies surround Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth?
That's a great sound. President Trump praised his defense secretary even as an official talked of a search for a replacement.
Pete Hicks has shared details of a forthcoming attack in a second group chat. Also, why did an official in his office quit and why were others fired?
I'm Leila Faudel, that's Steve Inskeep, and this is Up First from NPR News. Some people were in tears at St. Peter's Square. They put into words their appreciation for the late Pope Francis.
His concern for others and the world and trying to set an example.
Also, some parents seek the right to pick what their kids are exposed to in school.
It's just very heartbreaking to me how many parents feel like they have to choose between educating their child and raising their children in their faith.
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Chapter 2: What are the details of the leaked Defense Department Signal chats?
A Supreme Court case tests the power to opt out of some lessons. Stay with us. We've got the news you need to start your day. We are waiting to see how, if at all, President Trump addresses the leadership of the Defense Department.
One U.S. official tells NPR that the search is underway to replace Defense Secretary Pete Hexeth. Publicly, the president is standing behind him after a tumultuous week. Hexeth's office fired some of his aides. Then came revelations that the secretary shared details of impending airstrikes in Yemen again.
NPR confirmed the second chat on the messaging app Signal, which included Hegseth's wife, his brother, and his personal lawyer. The first chat was with top officials and a journalist who was inadvertently included.
NPR's Quill Lawrence is here to tell us more. Quill, good morning. Hey, good morning. So we'll note that you're reporting this story with our colleague Tom Bowman. What are you guys hearing? Yeah, a U.S.
official told us that the search has begun after this second round of headlines about Hegseth. I should add that the White House has said our anonymous source doesn't know what they're talking about. But at a Rose Garden event yesterday, the president stood firmly by Hegseth, at least publicly.
No, he's doing a great job. It's just fake news. They just bring up stories. I guess it sounds like disgruntled employees. You know, he was put there to get rid of a lot of bad people, and that's what he's doing.
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Chapter 3: How is the White House responding to the Defense Department leaks?
Quill, that phrase disgruntled employees. I think Hank Seth used a similar phrase in his public remarks about this and referred to people who were fired in his office. What's he talking about?
Yeah, there were four senior advisors to Hegseth who left in just the past week. Former Defense Department spokesman John Elliott resigned last week and then published a quite extraordinary opinion piece calling the past month at the Pentagon a, quote, full-blown meltdown and saying that this infighting is hurting President Trump.
He served in Trump's first administration and appears to want to continue to serve, but Three other Pentagon advisors, Colin Carroll, Dan Caldwell, and Darren Selnick, were escorted out of the Pentagon and accused of leaking information to the press.
They then put out, as a trio, the three of them put out a joint statement on X saying that their dismissal was unconscionable and that they haven't even been told what they stand accused of leaking. All three of them served in uniform. They say they understand the importance of information security. Caldwell and Selnick, notably, are longtime associates of of Hegseth.
They've worked with him over a decade back to when he was at Concerned Veterans for America, a policy group.
So I'm trying to figure out what all of this adds up to. The White House does appear to be backing Hegseth, but he's been revealed, NPR has confirmed, the original New York Times report, that there was a second chat group on Signal where he was sharing information about an impending attack.
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Chapter 4: What is the impact of the Defense Department leak on national security?
Yeah, I mean, with the first chat group, it was against Pentagon policy to use Signal for that. There were a lot of security issues with it, discussing details of an attack hours before the bombs hit in Yemen. But the people in that chat were the vice president, the secretary of state, people who would need to know.
This second group, it appears that Hegseth was just cut and pasting this actionable intelligence about U.S. strikes to his wife. People who just, I can't think of any conceivable... need they would have to know this information. And military sources, veterans I talked to, were just outraged about this. They say that it really did put U.S. lives at risk and American security at risk.
And they're concerned that this example being set, you know, the military really drills into troops that they have to take responsibility for their actions, own up. And so far, Hegseth has not done that yet for either of these signal chats.
Yeah, and I guess we should emphasize Hegseth's side has insisted no classified information was shared, leaning on how they define classified information. But it was information about an impending attack, which is always considered sensitive. Quill, thanks so much. Thank you, Steve. That's NPR's Quill Lawrence.
And since we mentioned Signal, we will also mention that NPR's CEO chairs the board of the nonprofit Signal Foundation, which we cover like any other entity. Church bells tolled from Notre Dame in Paris to the Philippines for the death of Pope Francis.
He died on Monday at 88 years old after leading the Catholic Church's 1.4 billion followers. Tributes have poured in from around the world remembering Jorge Mario Bergoglio, the first pope from Latin America, as a leader who advocated for the poor and the dispossessed. In Rome, the faithful gathered for rosary prayers for Francis and preparations are underway for his funeral.
NPR's Ruth Sherlock is in Rome. Hi there, Ruth. Hi, good morning. What are you hearing from people in St. Peter's Square?
There's real emotion and a sense of loss. You know, many were in tears at the rosary prayers last night. But Steve, people are also talking about Francis's legacy, about what he stood for in his 12 years as pope. This is Ruth Angeletti from Montana.
His concern for others and the world. the environment, but concern for other people and trying to set an example.
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Chapter 5: How is the world mourning Pope Francis?
Yeah, it's been fascinating to reflect on how much he changed the tone of the church without changing the underlying rules of the church.
Yeah, exactly.
And now we go on to the funeral and a selection. What are you hearing about the next few days?
His body will be moved to St. Peter's Basilica where people could come to see him from Wednesday. Previous popes were placed in these three nested coffins standing on an elevated bier for the public viewing. But Francis has ordered that he'll be put in a single wooden coffin and it's going to be positioned facing the church pews. His funeral will be Saturday.
Of course, many people will come from all around the world, including President Trump.
And then what about the conclave that comes after?
Well, it's the largest conclave in history. Pope Francis has appointed 108 of the 135 cardinals who can vote in that conclave. Here's Austin Ivory, Pope Francis's biographer.
He's appointed so many cardinals who are from far-flung places, often with very small Catholic populations, who are on the frontier of inter-religious dialogue or war or suffering, or anyway, the realities of the world, so that they bring those realities into the room.
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Chapter 6: What legacy did Pope Francis leave for the Catholic Church?
So even if Francis chooses cardinals with a similar outlook, experts say, many will still differ and view on some of the huge range of issues, and there's really no guarantee that the conclave will choose a more liberal pope like Francis.
Yeah, it's a fascinating choice to be watching. NPR's Ruth Sherlock, thanks so much.
Thank you.
Today, the U.S. Supreme Court considers a question about public schools.
Right. That question is whether and when parents should be allowed to pull their kids out of class over religious objections. Can parents pick and choose different bits of the curriculum, taking education a la carte?
NPR legal affairs correspondent Nina Totenberg is covering this case. Hi, Nina. Hi there, Steve. So what are the basics of the case before the court?
At the center of the case is the school system in our own nearby Montgomery County, Maryland. And it's the most religiously diverse county in the United States of America. It has 160,000 students of almost all faiths. And on one side are parents who want to opt their elementary and middle school children out of classes. when those classes include storybooks with LGBTQ characters and themes.
And the parents contend that the books expose their children to ideas that contradict their religious values. I talked to Grace Morrison, who's one of the parents who's suing the school system. Her daughter was 10 when the LGBTQ books were introduced in their curriculum. So rather than risk exposure to the unwanted ideas, Morrison is homeschooling her daughter, and here she is.
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Chapter 7: What are the debates about Pope Francis's reforms and leadership?
Chapter 8: What is the Supreme Court case regarding parents opting out of school lessons?
Also, some parents seek the right to pick what their kids are exposed to in school.
It's just very heartbreaking to me how many parents feel like they have to choose between educating their child and raising their children in their faith.
A Supreme Court case tests the power to opt out of some lessons. Stay with us. We've got the news you need to start your day. We are waiting to see how, if at all, President Trump addresses the leadership of the Defense Department.
One U.S. official tells NPR that the search is underway to replace Defense Secretary Pete Hexeth. Publicly, the president is standing behind him after a tumultuous week. Hexeth's office fired some of his aides. Then came revelations that the secretary shared details of impending airstrikes in Yemen again.
NPR confirmed the second chat on the messaging app Signal, which included Hegseth's wife, his brother, and his personal lawyer. The first chat was with top officials and a journalist who was inadvertently included.
NPR's Quill Lawrence is here to tell us more. Quill, good morning. Hey, good morning. So we'll note that you're reporting this story with our colleague Tom Bowman. What are you guys hearing? Yeah, a U.S.
official told us that the search has begun after this second round of headlines about Hegseth. I should add that the White House has said our anonymous source doesn't know what they're talking about. But at a Rose Garden event yesterday, the president stood firmly by Hegseth, at least publicly.
No, he's doing a great job. It's just fake news. They just bring up stories. I guess it sounds like disgruntled employees. You know, he was put there to get rid of a lot of bad people, and that's what he's doing.
Quill, that phrase disgruntled employees. I think Hank Seth used a similar phrase in his public remarks about this and referred to people who were fired in his office. What's he talking about?
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