Adam Tooze

And that includes big corporate capital, which has its DEI and its ESG agendas, none of which they're down with. And it's done in the name of a kind of entrepreneurialism, which is Jacksonian, which is about breaking things and seeing what happens next.

And that includes big corporate capital, which has its DEI and its ESG agendas, none of which they're down with. And it's done in the name of a kind of entrepreneurialism, which is Jacksonian, which is about breaking things and seeing what happens next.

But it was wallpaper that was held in place by tens of thousands of people whose job it was and who did believe in it and whose careers were actually owed to it. It's a real thing. And who are real people. There were real people and talented and there were elements of that story that actually worked, right? Affirmative action was a program that actually transformed American society for the better.

But it was wallpaper that was held in place by tens of thousands of people whose job it was and who did believe in it and whose careers were actually owed to it. It's a real thing. And who are real people. There were real people and talented and there were elements of that story that actually worked, right? Affirmative action was a program that actually transformed American society for the better.

And so we can't let go of that. But that I think is the double element that's at work here. And I would agree with you, John, that the vision that someone like Musk holds out is I just don't think we've ever quite seen anything. I go back to Jules Verne and late 19th century sci-fi where you've got some bad villainous business guy who's got an island and a submarine and a rocket.

And so we can't let go of that. But that I think is the double element that's at work here. And I would agree with you, John, that the vision that someone like Musk holds out is I just don't think we've ever quite seen anything. I go back to Jules Verne and late 19th century sci-fi where you've got some bad villainous business guy who's got an island and a submarine and a rocket.

And the crazy thing is he has an island and a submarine and a rocket. We're going to iRobot here. He's got like thousands of satellites. It's insane.

And the crazy thing is he has an island and a submarine and a rocket. We're going to iRobot here. He's got like thousands of satellites. It's insane.

In another way of reading, this would be less manipulative and it would be more optimistic in the sense that these changes are happening in American society. Women are going to college at rates never before seen. They dominate in many parts of education. DEI, as far as they're concerned, is not some sort of concession. It's just companies getting real.

In another way of reading, this would be less manipulative and it would be more optimistic in the sense that these changes are happening in American society. Women are going to college at rates never before seen. They dominate in many parts of education. DEI, as far as they're concerned, is not some sort of concession. It's just companies getting real.

No, they're trying to constrict it is what I'm saying. Yeah, exactly. And they were flexing around it and trying to figure out what their positioning is in relation to it. I think at that level, the same is true about the American working class. It's a large percentage of women and it's incredibly diverse. And so like woke strategies of recognizing that diversity are just realism.

No, they're trying to constrict it is what I'm saying. Yeah, exactly. And they were flexing around it and trying to figure out what their positioning is in relation to it. I think at that level, the same is true about the American working class. It's a large percentage of women and it's incredibly diverse. And so like woke strategies of recognizing that diversity are just realism.

No, I mean, I basically agree with you. As late as the 1970s, there was still that fear that if unemployment went really high, there would be something akin to social upheaval. And in parts of the world, in Europe, for instance, in Italy, in Great Britain for a time, it did actually look that way. 68 was a working class uprising in much of Europe at that time.

No, I mean, I basically agree with you. As late as the 1970s, there was still that fear that if unemployment went really high, there would be something akin to social upheaval. And in parts of the world, in Europe, for instance, in Italy, in Great Britain for a time, it did actually look that way. 68 was a working class uprising in much of Europe at that time.

But that fear is no longer, and that's part of the just grotesquery of the current moment. And Trump's inauguration with just the lineup of incredibly rich men as a kind of ostentatious display. And insofar as we can point, I mean, part of my argument a minute ago was there is a social pressure.

But that fear is no longer, and that's part of the just grotesquery of the current moment. And Trump's inauguration with just the lineup of incredibly rich men as a kind of ostentatious display. And insofar as we can point, I mean, part of my argument a minute ago was there is a social pressure.

I mean, I think it's going to be really interesting to see in the long run how gender rights, how issues around reproductive freedom and so on play out in American society, because I don't think the conservative agenda will work. It's not a threat of a revolution, but it is a huge polarization in politics we're seeing around the world between men and women. And in the end, that may tell.

I mean, I think it's going to be really interesting to see in the long run how gender rights, how issues around reproductive freedom and so on play out in American society, because I don't think the conservative agenda will work. It's not a threat of a revolution, but it is a huge polarization in politics we're seeing around the world between men and women. And in the end, that may tell.

The question now is, what does the PMC do? Because they are a much larger group than manufacturing industrial workers.

The question now is, what does the PMC do? Because they are a much larger group than manufacturing industrial workers.