Ahir Shah
Appearances
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
Und die anderen 38% sind Unicorns? Oder das ist... It's just so tasty.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
I say that it was, well, it was for storing grain. And you're like, no, it was a pub. The King's Head isn't where you store the King's Head. It's just a pub, isn't it? Damn it. So I'm going to say that it's where they stored grain. And you're going to be like, no, it was like a coffee shop art gallery.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
Welcome, Ahir. Hello, Greg. And as I learned, it's actually Julius Caesar. So who's the historian now?
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
Was bedeutet das Wort? Entschuldigung, eine Osserei. Eine Bohnenhaus.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
Ich denke, dass Meteor eines dieser schwierigen Dinge ist. Und es gibt Beweise davon, dass es irgendwo nahe ist. Aber weil es keine Beweise von großen Kriegen gibt, oder so etwas, werde ich sagen, dass es nicht erwähnt wurde, dass es keine Krieg war.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
Ich denke, dass Indisch das Wort Hindu auslöst, etymologisch. Ich denke, dass das die Sache ist. I imagine that this is what is now like northwest India and Pakistan.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
That's baffling to me, because you could say, it's as dull and orderly as a Lancashire mining town, or you'd say, this is as dull and orderly as a Lancashire mining town, and it's four and a half thousand years old. That's an exciting thing. All of the things that... The Nuance Window!
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
I'm sure that the current government of India would like us to believe that it was exclusively in India and these people identified as Hindus and had little statues of Ganesh that they carried around with them all the time and invented faster than light travel and all of this sort of business until they were rudely disturbed or what have you.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
But I'm not sure quite how historically accurate some of the BJP's claims on that front are.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
We're the only country in the world that ate the animal on our crest. And I never know whether to feel terrible or brilliant about that.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
You're welcome. You're cool with all the stuff. I know, right? It's like I'm reading from a sheet or something, but no, I haven't.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
Yeah, yeah, it seems like they came out of Oslo and they're about to release their second LP. Darf ich fragen, wenn wir von Städten sprechen, denken Sie, dass es in der Welt Städte gibt, in denen 10 Millionen Menschen leben oder was auch immer, aber ich vermute, dass wir nicht von dieser Art und Weise sprechen. Was bedeutet es also, eine Stadt zu sein in dieser Zeit?
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
Was mir sofort beeindruckend ist, ist, dass ich letztes Jahr nach Pompeji besucht habe. Und gerade die Ebenen, die man sieht, und es gibt eine Art Grid-Elemente darin, und man kann fast sagen, dass es diese Quartier ist und das ist diese Quartier. Es ist unglaublich, sich eine Bildung von etwas wie diesem in Südasien zu sehen und etwas in Europa zu haben.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
Natürlich gibt es Unterschiede, aber es gibt auch bestimmte bemerkenswerte Vergleiche zu mir. Ich glaube, das ist nur so, wie Menschen instinktiv in dieser Weise konurbieren. regardless of where we're from, which is pretty cool. I love the word Conurbate.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
Yeah, no Oxbow Lakes in this shot, unfortunately.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
He's had a really long, varied career. He's gone all around the place.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
Du kennst Unikronen, richtig? Lass uns das als Frage über Unikronen und Dschungel und alles mitnehmen. Given that in so many parts of the world where they didn't know each other and yet they They've still got the idea of like, oh, there's this lizard that breeds fire. Or, oh, there's this horse that's got a stick on his head. Right? Who are we to say that they didn't exist?
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
I think it's just that the archaeological evidence of the unicorns hasn't been found yet. I'm Team Unicorn on this one.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
Vielleicht etwas wie Kühlschrubben und Kollektionen, die für Fertilisierungen in Bäumen auf der Außenwelt genutzt werden.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
Wow, okay. Was, also Wasser würde in Kanälen gedreht werden und dann würde das alles wegnehmen?
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
I am going to guess that it is because there is no sort of equivalent like portraiture or anything like that. You know, you've got these things of animals, but you don't have it of people, the faces of people at least.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
Mit dieser modernen Dividende, macht das deinen Job als Archäologen schwieriger, wenn du versucht hast, die Wahrheit dieser Zivilisation zu beurteilen, die diese kontemporären Grenzen gesperrt hat?
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
Das ist das Ding mit einem Show wie diesem, mit sehr illustrierten akademischen Kredenzen und so weiter, wo immer so oft jemand ein kleines Ding ausgibt. Und als Nachbar bin ich so, was? Warte! Du hast einen Blick auf meine Beine und du weißt, was ich gegessen habe. Das ist es. Lass das nicht da liegen. That's so cool!
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
This is very sinister. If we were to find your body in an abandoned warehouse.
You're Dead to Me
The Indus Civilisation (Radio Edit)
Oh my God. So like you'd be able to tell my parents' skeletons would show that they were likely born in India?
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
That's too much culture. What other arts and cultural activities are important in Edo, Japan, Satana? A visual art I want to think about.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
So that slightly brings us on actually to something I wanted to bring up next actually is Edo Japan's relationship with the wider world because obviously Japan is a series of islands. Ahir, what do you know of Japan's attitude towards foreign traders and missionaries?
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
But that does not mean that Japan was completely isolated, Satana. The idea here, it's not like they shut the door and trapped out the world. They didn't stop the world getting in, did they?
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
And this policy of semi-isolation held until the end of the period, towards the 1850s. Ahir, do you know who turned up in the 1850s knocking on Japan's door? It was I, Ahir.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
Normally on this show, the default answer is the British Empire. That's normally what happens, about 80%. Weirdly, on this one, it's America. Yeah, the United States. Which I was not expecting. The Americans show up in the 1850s, and it's a guy by the name of Commodore Matthew Perry, not the beloved actor from Friends. 1853, tell me the story, Satana.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
Okay, Ahir, we've got a picture actually we can show you. This is by an unknown artist. It's one of Matthew Perry's ships. Would you like to describe it for us?
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
This is a depiction of a suspicious foreign power, Satana. Wow. That's the perception at the time. And once the Americans are sort of through the door, Britain are like, well, could we come in? You've done a deal with them and we're good at empires too. So the British, who else, Satana?
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
Ahir, if you were the government of the Shogunate of Japan, how would you respond to this influx of Western powers waving treaties in your face?
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
Satana, the really interesting thing is that the shogunate at this stage consults the emperor, who for 250 years has been sort of, you know, over there somewhere in Kyoto. But suddenly the shogun consults the emperor for his advice.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
Oh, good name for a movement. Yeah, it is, isn't it? Two different policies in one movement. I like that.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
And so we've got all these domestic issues now in the 1860s. So we've got famines, angry peasants in the countryside, angry people in the cities, a bunch of foreign countries parking their warships on Japan's front lawn. Ahir, how would you solve this in the Ahir shogunate? I'm going to keep using that. Sorry, I'm very happy with it.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
You'd say, well, just sort of farewell. Thanks very much. You have a go.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
Okay, good. I mean, Satana, we're coming towards the Meiji Restoration. So do you want to talk us through the lead up to that?
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
So things are going really wrong because we're back to the political violence that we started our story with, really.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
It's the endo of the edo. We're out. It's done. Mission accomplished. 265 years. Edo period. Completed it, mate.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
Okay, well, that's been a fascinating chat. It's time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Ahio and I set down our samurai swords and we sit quietly with our rice bowl for two minutes while Dr. Satana takes centre stage to tell us something we need to know about Edo, Japan. Without much further ado...
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
Thank you, Satana, for that wonderful lesson. Thank you. Really enjoyable. Listener, after today's episode, you want more from our here. We've got our episodes on the rise of Julius Kaiser and the Indus civilization. And for a different East Asian story, try our episode on Tang Dynasty China. That's a medieval story, which I enjoyed very much.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
But it's time to just say thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the sensational Dr. Satana Suzuki from SOAS. Thank you, Satana. Thank you so much. I had a great fun. Yeah, it was real fun. And in Comedy Corner, we had the always amazing Ahir Shah. Thank you, Ahir. Thank you. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we restore another topic to its rightful place in history.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
But for now, I'm off to go and stage a revival of Shogun the Musical, because every Shogun needs show tunes. Bye!
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are boarding our black ships and sailing back to 17th century Japan to learn all about life in the Edo period. And to help us distinguish our kosodei from our kimono, we have two very special guests in History Corner.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
She's a lecturer in both Japanese and modern Japanese history at SOAS, University of London. It's Dr. Satana Suzuki. Welcome, Satana.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
We're very excited to have you. And in Comedy Corner, he's a stand-up comedian, writer and the winner of the Edinburgh Festival Comedy Award 2023. Maybe you've heard him on Radio 4, but you'll definitely remember him from our episodes about Julius Caesar, Julius Kaiser or the Indus Civilisation. It's Ahir Shah. Welcome back, Ahir. Hello, thank you very much for having me back.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
So I think we can say we've got two experts in the room today, which is very exciting. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And for listeners outside of Japan, I suspect chances are the answer is not very much, much like me. Maybe you've seen the Keanu Reeves historical blockbuster, 47 Ronin.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
Maybe you're a video game fan and you've played Shogun Total War, my fave. But most likely you'll know the recent TV series that I have mentioned already, Shogun. It's based on a novel by James Clavel, which likely... lately fictionalises the foundation of the Tokugawa shogunate. And if you're a real shogun head, maybe you saw the short-lived 1990 musical, also based on Clavel's novel.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
But what's the true story behind this brilliant TV show? What did Samurai really get up to? Let's find out. Right, Ahir, when did the Edo period start?
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
And as Satana, we start the dynasty a tiny bit later. We start it the same year that in England or Britain we start the Stuart era, 1603. So how long is the Edo period? Why did we start it there?
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
And this is a time of warfare, instability. This is not a peaceful era.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
So the five-year-old is the new shogun, but not really. A council is put in charge, and one of the members of that council is a rival of Hideyoshi.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
And that is the big win that establishes the beginnings of the Edo shogunate.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
OK, so Tokugawa Ieyasu, named shogun. He is the first shogun of our period, of the Edo period. Ahir, do you know what it translates to in English, shogun? I don't know.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
Who are the social groups in society at this time? We have the elite groups, don't we? So we should we start with them.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
From my point of view, growing up, I knew a lot about ninjas and samurai, but actually I didn't really. So what do you think of when you think of samurai?
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
Amazing. They're just slicing their way through mountains of paperwork. Yeah. So artisans are craftspeople. They're making things. Peasants are farmers. And then merchants are selling.
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
Satana, you said in the second half of the Edo period, which we're saying is 265 years or so. In the second half of that period, the economic sort of patterns, they change and there's a sort of decrease in population or there's a slowdown. What happens at that time then?
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
So that was life in the kind of rural areas, I think. Ahir, I want to turn to you and ask you about city life, actually. So what do you imagine of the Edo period and the cities in Japan at this time?
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
I think that's a very fair answer. And of course, the character in the show is not a real character, but it's based on a real guy, William Adams. So there was an English pilot who arrived in Japan. We call this the Edo period because of Edo, the city, which was huge, wasn't it, Satana?
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
I mean, economic decline, boo, but I don't know anything about the history of economics, so I'm going to move on to the stuff that I like. And that's why you're not being paid £8,000 to hear. So let's talk more about culture and entertainment in Edo, Japan. Ahir, what do you think are the go-to cultural kind of touchstones that people respect and admire?
You're Dead to Me
Edo Japan (Radio Edit)
And how long does a play last? Is it two hours with an intermission?