Alison Wood Brooks

You've put numbers on what you care about, and then you try and sort of trade on differences to expand the size of the pie and then claim the largest part of it. And as a psychologist, it made me deeply uncomfortable. Not everything is quantifiable. So much about life and about how we feel towards each other is emotional and trust and fun and love.

You've put numbers on what you care about, and then you try and sort of trade on differences to expand the size of the pie and then claim the largest part of it. And as a psychologist, it made me deeply uncomfortable. Not everything is quantifiable. So much about life and about how we feel towards each other is emotional and trust and fun and love.

And I want to keep this private and just felt like we were missing a big piece.

And I want to keep this private and just felt like we were missing a big piece.

Yeah. And missing a huge part of what it means to be the most human we can be. And we love each other and want to have fun. And it's like not about just sort of transactional. How can I get as much information out of you? How can I tell you the most amount of information? Even now, a lot of economists focus very narrowly on information exchange. Are we exchanging accurate information?

Yeah. And missing a huge part of what it means to be the most human we can be. And we love each other and want to have fun. And it's like not about just sort of transactional. How can I get as much information out of you? How can I tell you the most amount of information? Even now, a lot of economists focus very narrowly on information exchange. Are we exchanging accurate information?

But so much of the social world is not about information exchange at all. We're just looking to fill time. We're looking to conceal information and maintain privacy. We just don't want to feel awkward around other people. We want to have fun. We want to learn from each other. I felt like that whole bit needed more of a focus.

But so much of the social world is not about information exchange at all. We're just looking to fill time. We're looking to conceal information and maintain privacy. We just don't want to feel awkward around other people. We want to have fun. We want to learn from each other. I felt like that whole bit needed more of a focus.

Dang, girl. Mid-range jump shots now.

Dang, girl. Mid-range jump shots now.

I mean, we start learning to talk to each other when we're one, one and a half. You're a toddler. You do it every day of your life with an enormous number of people, very diverse range of conversation partners. So by the time you get to be a teenager and then an adult. It's second nature to you. It feels like you should be an expert and maybe you are an expert.

I mean, we start learning to talk to each other when we're one, one and a half. You're a toddler. You do it every day of your life with an enormous number of people, very diverse range of conversation partners. So by the time you get to be a teenager and then an adult. It's second nature to you. It feels like you should be an expert and maybe you are an expert.

You see other people who are seemingly amazing at it and you're like, wow. And then you feel bad if you feel like you're not.

You see other people who are seemingly amazing at it and you're like, wow. And then you feel bad if you feel like you're not.

Right.

Right.

When you look under the hood of what's going on during conversation, it is remarkably complex. You get to this point of acceptance where you're like, of course, there's going to be moments of awkwardness. Of course, we're going to forget to say stuff that we meant to say or say things that we regret or interrupt people or have all these little collisions because it's not second nature.

When you look under the hood of what's going on during conversation, it is remarkably complex. You get to this point of acceptance where you're like, of course, there's going to be moments of awkwardness. Of course, we're going to forget to say stuff that we meant to say or say things that we regret or interrupt people or have all these little collisions because it's not second nature.

And watching children learn to do it, reading or talking, opens your eyes to how this is not natural. This is not innate. It's hard to learn to read. It takes years to really get good at reading. It takes even longer to learn how to be a good conversationalist. And we get to adulthood and we're still not.

And watching children learn to do it, reading or talking, opens your eyes to how this is not natural. This is not innate. It's hard to learn to read. It takes years to really get good at reading. It takes even longer to learn how to be a good conversationalist. And we get to adulthood and we're still not.

Think about how much time you spend picking out your outfit, making a reservation at the restaurant, buying your makeup, getting your hair done. And literally during all of that, you could be thinking, what are two things we could talk about once we're together? But most people don't do that.

Think about how much time you spend picking out your outfit, making a reservation at the restaurant, buying your makeup, getting your hair done. And literally during all of that, you could be thinking, what are two things we could talk about once we're together? But most people don't do that.

It'll flow.

It'll flow.

But also, do you think people might feel like that's contrived? I know people think it's contrived. So we've asked people. There's tremendous aversion to this idea of forethought, particularly for people that you know really well. And it goes back to this assumption or this hope that it's second nature. You have this feeling that conversation should feel natural.

But also, do you think people might feel like that's contrived? I know people think it's contrived. So we've asked people. There's tremendous aversion to this idea of forethought, particularly for people that you know really well. And it goes back to this assumption or this hope that it's second nature. You have this feeling that conversation should feel natural.

The myth of naturalness. It should feel spontaneous and invented on the spot and a little bit magical that you just land on topics that are fun to talk about and there's never going to be a lull and you're going to just know where to go. And we feel that way even more with people that we know really well and love. We're like, oh, it'll just come.

The myth of naturalness. It should feel spontaneous and invented on the spot and a little bit magical that you just land on topics that are fun to talk about and there's never going to be a lull and you're going to just know where to go. And we feel that way even more with people that we know really well and love. We're like, oh, it'll just come.

Which is maybe true a little bit more when you know somebody well compared to like your work colleague that you don't like. But in all of the cases, whether you're averse or not, when you actually have people plan topics ahead of time, their conversations are measurably better.

Which is maybe true a little bit more when you know somebody well compared to like your work colleague that you don't like. But in all of the cases, whether you're averse or not, when you actually have people plan topics ahead of time, their conversations are measurably better.

We actually know very little about when humans evolved the ability to have dialogue and talk to each other. Estimates vary quite widely. There are signs in the archaeological record. The fossil of jewelry is a sign that they must have learned to talk by this point because they had to pass that knowledge down across generations in order for it to be trapped in the archaeological record.

We actually know very little about when humans evolved the ability to have dialogue and talk to each other. Estimates vary quite widely. There are signs in the archaeological record. The fossil of jewelry is a sign that they must have learned to talk by this point because they had to pass that knowledge down across generations in order for it to be trapped in the archaeological record.

Exactly. And then they make hypotheses about, well, would they have been able to collaborate on this if they hadn't yet learned to actually talk to each other, communicate in some way?

Exactly. And then they make hypotheses about, well, would they have been able to collaborate on this if they hadn't yet learned to actually talk to each other, communicate in some way?

Here's the project. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Here's the project. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's how we're trying to figure out when did humans evolve this ability. Then you fast forward. The book starts in the 1700s when there were all of these monarchies in Europe whose kings and queens told people how to talk to each other. Here are the people who are allowed to talk to each other at these times and these are the topics and here are all the compliments you have to say about me.

That's how we're trying to figure out when did humans evolve this ability. Then you fast forward. The book starts in the 1700s when there were all of these monarchies in Europe whose kings and queens told people how to talk to each other. Here are the people who are allowed to talk to each other at these times and these are the topics and here are all the compliments you have to say about me.

Yeah. Right. That was it. And then around the French Revolution and right after in the Enlightenment and during what was called the Age of Conversation, people started to realize, oh, we can get together and talk about what we want to talk about. And it was in these fancy salons in Paris and it was happening all over Europe.

Yeah. Right. That was it. And then around the French Revolution and right after in the Enlightenment and during what was called the Age of Conversation, people started to realize, oh, we can get together and talk about what we want to talk about. And it was in these fancy salons in Paris and it was happening all over Europe.

And so the book zooms in on Immanuel Kant, who was this famous philosopher.

And so the book zooms in on Immanuel Kant, who was this famous philosopher.

And he lived a very fascinating, very regimented life. Most of his life, he would get up and he would go for his walk at a specific time. He would sit down and do his work at a specific time. They called him the Koenigsberg clock. Very regimented guy. He was not wealthy until late in his life when he was finally able to afford a home of his own.

And he lived a very fascinating, very regimented life. Most of his life, he would get up and he would go for his walk at a specific time. He would sit down and do his work at a specific time. They called him the Koenigsberg clock. Very regimented guy. He was not wealthy until late in his life when he was finally able to afford a home of his own.

A sub teacher. And he would have dinner in these rowdy pubs at night. And as this fancy, very smart philosopher, he would get really annoyed. He's like, this is boring. I want to talk to smart people about my smart ideas. So finally, when he was able to get his own house, he started hosting these dinner parties, which became very well known.

A sub teacher. And he would have dinner in these rowdy pubs at night. And as this fancy, very smart philosopher, he would get really annoyed. He's like, this is boring. I want to talk to smart people about my smart ideas. So finally, when he was able to get his own house, he started hosting these dinner parties, which became very well known.

They were highly coveted invitations to Kant's house for these dinner parties. What I found so fascinating to read about and learn is that his dinner parties had all these rules of conversation. So he almost was kind of acting like this little king in his kingdom. And his rules were, we're going to talk about specific topics at the beginning.

They were highly coveted invitations to Kant's house for these dinner parties. What I found so fascinating to read about and learn is that his dinner parties had all these rules of conversation. So he almost was kind of acting like this little king in his kingdom. And his rules were, we're going to talk about specific topics at the beginning.

We're going to talk about specific topics in the middle. Then we're going to joke at the end. We're going to have food and wine that mirrors each of the phases of the meal. I want to go to this.

We're going to talk about specific topics in the middle. Then we're going to joke at the end. We're going to have food and wine that mirrors each of the phases of the meal. I want to go to this.

So surprisingly, he didn't like debate. He didn't really like when people argued about stuff, especially about the French Revolution. He was like, this is for us to have fun and learn from each other. And it should feel delightful the whole time.

So surprisingly, he didn't like debate. He didn't really like when people argued about stuff, especially about the French Revolution. He was like, this is for us to have fun and learn from each other. And it should feel delightful the whole time.

Exactly. And so that was sort of the beginning of it. During the age of conversation, this idea was cropping up all over Europe. There were all these philosophers who were pontificating about what it meant to have good, sparkling conversation. It was sort of subversive because it was the first time that they weren't just doing what the king or queen told them to do.

Exactly. And so that was sort of the beginning of it. During the age of conversation, this idea was cropping up all over Europe. There were all these philosophers who were pontificating about what it meant to have good, sparkling conversation. It was sort of subversive because it was the first time that they weren't just doing what the king or queen told them to do.

And then the industrial revolution happened and people started mixing a lot more. We're not just talking about highfalutin philosophers getting their fancy friends together. People are going everywhere all the time. You never know who you're going to run into in all classes and all status. So we need to now figure out what are we talking about? How are we talking?

And then the industrial revolution happened and people started mixing a lot more. We're not just talking about highfalutin philosophers getting their fancy friends together. People are going everywhere all the time. You never know who you're going to run into in all classes and all status. So we need to now figure out what are we talking about? How are we talking?

What are the new rules of conversation?

What are the new rules of conversation?

And you're going to see them on the road as you're walking past and you're allowed to greet each other. If you say hi, what are you going to say? Can you even tell who's who anymore? Right. And I love that.

And you're going to see them on the road as you're walking past and you're allowed to greet each other. If you say hi, what are you going to say? Can you even tell who's who anymore? Right. And I love that.

Yes. So fast forward. So all of this mixing is happening. The big experiment in democracy is happening in America. All the Europeans think that Americans are no good at conversation. We're talking about ourselves all the time. We spit while they're talking. I mean, there's all kinds of stereotypes developing.

Yes. So fast forward. So all of this mixing is happening. The big experiment in democracy is happening in America. All the Europeans think that Americans are no good at conversation. We're talking about ourselves all the time. We spit while they're talking. I mean, there's all kinds of stereotypes developing.

Fast forward a bit more, in the mid-1900s, middle of the 20th century, game theory appears. So these are economists and game theorists like John Nash from A Beautiful Mind. Oh, sure, sure.

Fast forward a bit more, in the mid-1900s, middle of the 20th century, game theory appears. So these are economists and game theorists like John Nash from A Beautiful Mind. Oh, sure, sure.

Yes, Morgenstern, Thomas Schelling. Now, they studied what they called coordination games. which were really simple. But at the time, they were really hot and flashy. So it would be like the game of chicken as a coordination game. Any choice two or more people are making independently that they can't talk to each other. So like in a game of chicken, you're coming towards each other.

Yes, Morgenstern, Thomas Schelling. Now, they studied what they called coordination games. which were really simple. But at the time, they were really hot and flashy. So it would be like the game of chicken as a coordination game. Any choice two or more people are making independently that they can't talk to each other. So like in a game of chicken, you're coming towards each other.

You both have to choose, am I going to go right or am I going to go left? But you can't talk about it. If you coordinate, you pass successfully. Motorcycles or Sea-Doos or whatever you're on. Horses with jowls. Yes, exactly. If you miscoordinate, you collide. That's a simple one. There are non-cooperative coordination games, like the Prisoner's Dilemma. Do you know the Prisoner's Dilemma?

You both have to choose, am I going to go right or am I going to go left? But you can't talk about it. If you coordinate, you pass successfully. Motorcycles or Sea-Doos or whatever you're on. Horses with jowls. Yes, exactly. If you miscoordinate, you collide. That's a simple one. There are non-cooperative coordination games, like the Prisoner's Dilemma. Do you know the Prisoner's Dilemma?

No, that's different. That's the Stanford Prison Experiment.

No, that's different. That's the Stanford Prison Experiment.

I thought you just had an electric shock just now.

I thought you just had an electric shock just now.

Milgram, that's how I react to the name, too. Yes, Milgram did the Stanford Prison Experiment and the shocks.

Milgram, that's how I react to the name, too. Yes, Milgram did the Stanford Prison Experiment and the shocks.

No?

No?

Is different.

Is different.

That was a different guy. I thought Milgram did shocks.

That was a different guy. I thought Milgram did shocks.

Yes, Stanford Prism. Milgram is like the shock. Milgram. Okay. Oh, yeah. I'm going to quiz you at the end.

Yes, Stanford Prism. Milgram is like the shock. Milgram. Okay. Oh, yeah. I'm going to quiz you at the end.

Yeah, yeah, because it's a stimulant, right? Yeah. We cut through so many cases of Diet Coke at HBS, at Harvard, because so many of the faculty are ADHD and they're self-medicating. medicating in tiny doses. That makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, because it's a stimulant, right? Yeah. We cut through so many cases of Diet Coke at HBS, at Harvard, because so many of the faculty are ADHD and they're self-medicating. medicating in tiny doses. That makes sense.

Okay, sorry. So yours is separate from all of it. Forget about Zimbardo's Sanford Prison Experiment. Forget about the shock. So the Prisoner's Dilemma is a coordination game that people were thinking about.

Okay, sorry. So yours is separate from all of it. Forget about Zimbardo's Sanford Prison Experiment. Forget about the shock. So the Prisoner's Dilemma is a coordination game that people were thinking about.

You imagine there's two people being questioned in separate rooms, interrogated about a crime, and they both face a choice, and they can't talk to each other about it, to either stay quiet or snitch. If they both stay quiet, they're going to go to jail, but not for very long. If they both snitch, they both go to jail for much longer.

You imagine there's two people being questioned in separate rooms, interrogated about a crime, and they both face a choice, and they can't talk to each other about it, to either stay quiet or snitch. If they both stay quiet, they're going to go to jail, but not for very long. If they both snitch, they both go to jail for much longer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it seems simple that you should stay quiet, except if you snitch and the other guy stays quiet, you walk free.

So it seems simple that you should stay quiet, except if you snitch and the other guy stays quiet, you walk free.

Everybody is tempted to betray. And so this is a non-cooperative coordination game because you're incentivized to not cooperate. Oh, interesting.

Everybody is tempted to betray. And so this is a non-cooperative coordination game because you're incentivized to not cooperate. Oh, interesting.

That's what makes it hard. The biggest reward is to walk free.

That's what makes it hard. The biggest reward is to walk free.

In theory, logically, but if you're the person, you start to get the sense of why these games are interesting to people because then you can change all kinds of stuff. Who are you imagining in the other room? What's your relationship with them? What do you know about the person? If you did this game 10 times in a row based on their prior behavior, what do you do in the last round?

In theory, logically, but if you're the person, you start to get the sense of why these games are interesting to people because then you can change all kinds of stuff. Who are you imagining in the other room? What's your relationship with them? What do you know about the person? If you did this game 10 times in a row based on their prior behavior, what do you do in the last round?

Tell me.

Tell me.

These games have been studied so much that I'm sure there are lots of cross-cultural findings about how Germans play, how everyone plays. So economists and game theorists were kind of obsessed with these coordination games. Now fast forward to now. We have whole fields that have been studying social psychology, communication, all of this stuff.

These games have been studied so much that I'm sure there are lots of cross-cultural findings about how Germans play, how everyone plays. So economists and game theorists were kind of obsessed with these coordination games. Now fast forward to now. We have whole fields that have been studying social psychology, communication, all of this stuff.

And what I realized is even though we have these whole fields that are about interpersonal interaction, not a lot of people had gone to the trouble of actually recording real people talking to real people at very large scale. The reason they hadn't is because we needed new technology to do it.

And what I realized is even though we have these whole fields that are about interpersonal interaction, not a lot of people had gone to the trouble of actually recording real people talking to real people at very large scale. The reason they hadn't is because we needed new technology to do it.

We needed natural language processing and machine learning to help us analyze tons of transcripts at once. We just weren't ready to do it until very recently. But as we were sort of like, oh, we should do that. We should record tons of conversations and analyze them.

We needed natural language processing and machine learning to help us analyze tons of transcripts at once. We just weren't ready to do it until very recently. But as we were sort of like, oh, we should do that. We should record tons of conversations and analyze them.

I also realized conversation is just like those coordination games that the game theorists were studying back in the 1950s, like Thomas Schelling. He has a famous one where he asked people, if you had to meet up with people at noon tomorrow in New York City, where would you go?

I also realized conversation is just like those coordination games that the game theorists were studying back in the 1950s, like Thomas Schelling. He has a famous one where he asked people, if you had to meet up with people at noon tomorrow in New York City, where would you go?

Is it a riddle or is it just a fun talking? It's just a coordination game. You can't talk about it. Oh. And everybody writes down their answer.

Is it a riddle or is it just a fun talking? It's just a coordination game. You can't talk about it. Oh. And everybody writes down their answer.

Let's pick L.A. Let's do it. Okay, yeah. So if you had to meet up with Monica tomorrow somewhere in L.A. at noon, think in your mind where you would go. And it's not here. It can't be here.

Let's pick L.A. Let's do it. Okay, yeah. So if you had to meet up with Monica tomorrow somewhere in L.A. at noon, think in your mind where you would go. And it's not here. It can't be here.

Monica, what's your answer? Cara.

Monica, what's your answer? Cara.

Oh, the bar at Cara? Yeah. Or the restaurant.

Oh, the bar at Cara? Yeah. Or the restaurant.

The most frequent one that people say is Grand Central Station. Everyone will be arriving there.

The most frequent one that people say is Grand Central Station. Everyone will be arriving there.

Thomas Schelling called them focal points. It's because it's stuff that your mind goes to quickly that you think other people are going to do. Yeah, high probability.

Thomas Schelling called them focal points. It's because it's stuff that your mind goes to quickly that you think other people are going to do. Yeah, high probability.

Yeah. We're here. That's a focal point for you in your shared reality and your relationship that helps you coordinate. So what we realized about conversation is it's just like these coordination games, except every little detail. moment is like a coordination game. When you're trying to decide, what are we going to talk about next? How are we going to talk about it?

Yeah. We're here. That's a focal point for you in your shared reality and your relationship that helps you coordinate. So what we realized about conversation is it's just like these coordination games, except every little detail. moment is like a coordination game. When you're trying to decide, what are we going to talk about next? How are we going to talk about it?

What are they excited for me to ask? Where should we go next? Requires this level of shared reality, these focal points and this mind reading, but it's so much more than just one choice. Do you stay quiet or snitch? It's like, and now, and now, and now, and now, and you have to make those choices relentlessly.

What are they excited for me to ask? Where should we go next? Requires this level of shared reality, these focal points and this mind reading, but it's so much more than just one choice. Do you stay quiet or snitch? It's like, and now, and now, and now, and now, and you have to make those choices relentlessly.

I wanted you to say that it was Britney Spears because she had that, like, amazing... I know. Remember the ad back in the day? She was so hot.

I wanted you to say that it was Britney Spears because she had that, like, amazing... I know. Remember the ad back in the day? She was so hot.

I agree. It is incredible. That's what linguists will tell you.

I agree. It is incredible. That's what linguists will tell you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

She was so gorge. I would love to see a resurgence. Get back in it. Britney Spears with the Diet Pepsi. She's the one bringing it back. That's what I want. Addison Rae. Addison Rae. Kind of a new gen Britney Spears, if we're being real.

She was so gorge. I would love to see a resurgence. Get back in it. Britney Spears with the Diet Pepsi. She's the one bringing it back. That's what I want. Addison Rae. Addison Rae. Kind of a new gen Britney Spears, if we're being real.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah, it is.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.

Ariana Grande?

Ariana Grande?

Yes. Look at you with your memory. Holy moly.

Yes. Look at you with your memory. Holy moly.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I'm turning 40 next month.

I'm turning 40 next month.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.

I am at a major inflection point in my life. You're hitting me at the right time. You're young.

I am at a major inflection point in my life. You're hitting me at the right time. You're young.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I grew up in upstate New York in the Finger Lakes area. Very Rust Belt-y. Yeah. When I was growing up there, not fancy. Since I've moved away and become an adult, it's a beautiful place, and I think the world is more onto it now.

I grew up in upstate New York in the Finger Lakes area. Very Rust Belt-y. Yeah. When I was growing up there, not fancy. Since I've moved away and become an adult, it's a beautiful place, and I think the world is more onto it now.

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Oh! Am I the expert? Maybe. I think I might be the expert.

Oh! Am I the expert? Maybe. I think I might be the expert.

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That's a good point. Won't be as objective. A lived expert.

That's a good point. Won't be as objective. A lived expert.

It would be a pair like you. One person is the never-ending question asker. The other person's just answering. And every time Monica talks, she has to end by asking a follow-up question. Oh, wow. And it sounds so extreme, but the experience of it is like Scotty. The experience of it is magic. You immediately move away from small talk. You start learning so much about the other person.

It would be a pair like you. One person is the never-ending question asker. The other person's just answering. And every time Monica talks, she has to end by asking a follow-up question. Oh, wow. And it sounds so extreme, but the experience of it is like Scotty. The experience of it is magic. You immediately move away from small talk. You start learning so much about the other person.

He started playing a character. You started asking questions you already knew the answer to. So part of this that matters is that you should do it as yourself.

He started playing a character. You started asking questions you already knew the answer to. So part of this that matters is that you should do it as yourself.

We talk a lot.

We talk a lot.

I got these at a local store near where I live.

I got these at a local store near where I live.

I love fashion. I actually talk about this with some of my mom friends. As like a fashionista gets older, you get fewer and fewer touch points with people who are actually fashionable, which is alarming because you're like, oh no, I feel myself getting out of touch.

I love fashion. I actually talk about this with some of my mom friends. As like a fashionista gets older, you get fewer and fewer touch points with people who are actually fashionable, which is alarming because you're like, oh no, I feel myself getting out of touch.

Yes. So I have hundreds of students who are in their 20s. So I get to observe that. I have fancy colleagues who are all ages and flavors of style. I then have all my community friends, cool parents. And then there's social media. So I'm like, am I following the right influencer accounts? Am I getting the right ads?

Yes. So I have hundreds of students who are in their 20s. So I get to observe that. I have fancy colleagues who are all ages and flavors of style. I then have all my community friends, cool parents. And then there's social media. So I'm like, am I following the right influencer accounts? Am I getting the right ads?

Calculus for women deciding what to wear in different contexts they find themselves in is so complicated.

Calculus for women deciding what to wear in different contexts they find themselves in is so complicated.

Oh, I try not to. So this is part of one of my goals. I used to go much harder when I was in my 20s. I wanted to get noticed. I wanted to be different. I wanted to be the one sort of setting the trend. As I've gotten older, I think it's more about not taking too big of a swing. I don't like that feeling.

Oh, I try not to. So this is part of one of my goals. I used to go much harder when I was in my 20s. I wanted to get noticed. I wanted to be different. I wanted to be the one sort of setting the trend. As I've gotten older, I think it's more about not taking too big of a swing. I don't like that feeling.

No. I played a little safer, I would say. Even today, I was going to wear like a hot pink sweater. And at the last second, I was like, I'm black. Thank you. Wait, you said you were afraid to ask that?

No. I played a little safer, I would say. Even today, I was going to wear like a hot pink sweater. And at the last second, I was like, I'm black. Thank you. Wait, you said you were afraid to ask that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's very bonding. I didn't even realize you were doing it to me. You thought this was a random conversation. I thought you were just asking me. That's so fun.

And that's very bonding. I didn't even realize you were doing it to me. You thought this was a random conversation. I thought you were just asking me. That's so fun.

This is something I am always working on in myself about conversation is more quickly revealing my vulnerability, my mistakes, my failures, my moments of embarrassment and shame. I'm so hungry to get it out of other people and probably too slow to share it with others.

This is something I am always working on in myself about conversation is more quickly revealing my vulnerability, my mistakes, my failures, my moments of embarrassment and shame. I'm so hungry to get it out of other people and probably too slow to share it with others.

So that is very interesting. And we all have multiple selves. But as a twin, you get to see one of your sort of selves outside of your body. It's an amazing, lucky life. I don't know anything else, but it's really quite something.

So that is very interesting. And we all have multiple selves. But as a twin, you get to see one of your sort of selves outside of your body. It's an amazing, lucky life. I don't know anything else, but it's really quite something.

How do they respond that you think that's not good? They're guarded? They feel threatened?

How do they respond that you think that's not good? They're guarded? They feel threatened?

And then I'm like, bye. You trusted me with your heart and I stomped on it. The reframe of that is that you actually gave it a chance. Nobody needs to waste their time small talking with people.

And then I'm like, bye. You trusted me with your heart and I stomped on it. The reframe of that is that you actually gave it a chance. Nobody needs to waste their time small talking with people.

You're a sharer.

You're a sharer.

This is verbal kissing. This is you sharing something vulnerable.

This is verbal kissing. This is you sharing something vulnerable.

There are people, though, every relationship in their life is like this and they want nothing else, myself included. Yeah, same. I have a colleague at Harvard named Leslie John who's writing a book called Reveal. And it's all about this conundrum of the spectrum from full opacity where you share nothing to full transparency.

There are people, though, every relationship in their life is like this and they want nothing else, myself included. Yeah, same. I have a colleague at Harvard named Leslie John who's writing a book called Reveal. And it's all about this conundrum of the spectrum from full opacity where you share nothing to full transparency.

If you could download the full contents of your brain and give it to somebody else as a gift, we're making these choices constantly of how much do we share of ourselves and what consequences come from it. Closeness.

If you could download the full contents of your brain and give it to somebody else as a gift, we're making these choices constantly of how much do we share of ourselves and what consequences come from it. Closeness.

No.

No.

I think about this all the time. One of the downsides of getting really good at conversation is that you don't actually have the bandwidth to be the best friend, the best boss, the best colleague to a thousand people. And it's such a first world problem.

I think about this all the time. One of the downsides of getting really good at conversation is that you don't actually have the bandwidth to be the best friend, the best boss, the best colleague to a thousand people. And it's such a first world problem.

You're right. I'm not an expert. I don't know those answers. But you're identical. We're identical. We didn't know we were identical until high school. What? The AP biology class was like, hey, can we test you and figure it out? Oh, wow.

You're right. I'm not an expert. I don't know those answers. But you're identical. We're identical. We didn't know we were identical until high school. What? The AP biology class was like, hey, can we test you and figure it out? Oh, wow.

If you really work on this skill and people are willing to trust you and share with you and love being with you, the problem then becomes that person actually doesn't have the time and energy to fulfill that role all the time to that many people.

If you really work on this skill and people are willing to trust you and share with you and love being with you, the problem then becomes that person actually doesn't have the time and energy to fulfill that role all the time to that many people.

It is not about boomers. Let me say that first of all. It is about humans of all ages and it's named after a boomerang. So it's when I ask you a question. So if I say to you, Monica, how was your weekend?

It is not about boomers. Let me say that first of all. It is about humans of all ages and it's named after a boomerang. So it's when I ask you a question. So if I say to you, Monica, how was your weekend?

How was yours? Let me tell you about my weekend. You're asking so that you can talk.

How was yours? Let me tell you about my weekend. You're asking so that you can talk.

Exactly. Very specific.

Exactly. Very specific.

Very specific. Yeah. So this is boomer asking because it's like a boomerang. You're throwing out the boomerang. You let them answer and then you bring it right back to yourself immediately.

Very specific. Yeah. So this is boomer asking because it's like a boomerang. You're throwing out the boomerang. You let them answer and then you bring it right back to yourself immediately.

People do it all the time. I do it.

People do it all the time. I do it.

And then you lay the results side by side. This was way before 23andMe. And they were identical. I mean, looked like the same person. Wow. My parents didn't know they were having twins until I was out. It sounds like the dark ages.

And then you lay the results side by side. This was way before 23andMe. And they were identical. I mean, looked like the same person. Wow. My parents didn't know they were having twins until I was out. It sounds like the dark ages.

Your hand looks different? Yeah.

Your hand looks different? Yeah.

It's all about the timing. So if you really want to hear about Dax's hand car experiences, and he shares with you very openly, the important thing is follow up on his thing first. So it feels like you actually care because you do. Yeah. Before we get back to your hand changing into a new hand. Luckily, he did not understand what I was talking about.

It's all about the timing. So if you really want to hear about Dax's hand car experiences, and he shares with you very openly, the important thing is follow up on his thing first. So it feels like you actually care because you do. Yeah. Before we get back to your hand changing into a new hand. Luckily, he did not understand what I was talking about.

So we study that exactly. Oh, tell me. So we randomly assign people to either start with a question, let someone answer and then tell a story or just tell the story. Just telling the story is better. Whether you're bragging, whether you're complaining or whether you're just saying something weird and neutral. Yeah. Like, oh, I think my hand morphed into a different hand.

So we study that exactly. Oh, tell me. So we randomly assign people to either start with a question, let someone answer and then tell a story or just tell the story. Just telling the story is better. Whether you're bragging, whether you're complaining or whether you're just saying something weird and neutral. Yeah. Like, oh, I think my hand morphed into a different hand.

It's better to just share it. Which then may trigger reciprocity. That's the hope. But you don't have control over that. But you're going to get the satisfaction of sharing whatever this thing you're dying to share. And you hope that the person you're talking to is actually interested and ask about it or share about themselves. Yeah, interesting.

It's better to just share it. Which then may trigger reciprocity. That's the hope. But you don't have control over that. But you're going to get the satisfaction of sharing whatever this thing you're dying to share. And you hope that the person you're talking to is actually interested and ask about it or share about themselves. Yeah, interesting.

That's almost a gotcha question unto itself. It's not. It's not. It's not. A gotcha question is really in the eye of the receiver. If the person feels like you're testing them.

That's almost a gotcha question unto itself. It's not. It's not. It's not. A gotcha question is really in the eye of the receiver. If the person feels like you're testing them.

Leading them, making them feel like you want to prove how incompetent they are, that they're a liar, expose them as a fraud. So if I were to say, Dax, you said that you were an actor. Are you acting in anything right now? Oh, yeah. Like, what the hell? You could do it for fun. If we're best friends and I want to tease you, that's a really funny way to do it.

Leading them, making them feel like you want to prove how incompetent they are, that they're a liar, expose them as a fraud. So if I were to say, Dax, you said that you were an actor. Are you acting in anything right now? Oh, yeah. Like, what the hell? You could do it for fun. If we're best friends and I want to tease you, that's a really funny way to do it.

If we're not, and that's a legitimate question, what an asshole. That's a really quick way to make someone feel really bad.

If we're not, and that's a legitimate question, what an asshole. That's a really quick way to make someone feel really bad.

No, I'm reading you as you're asking me this to embarrass me, to exploit me, to make me look bad. But it's a gotcha question. The same question lobbed from someone who doesn't actually know the answer and really cares about you. Yeah, just wants to know. It's great. The importance is like sort of caring intention.

No, I'm reading you as you're asking me this to embarrass me, to exploit me, to make me look bad. But it's a gotcha question. The same question lobbed from someone who doesn't actually know the answer and really cares about you. Yeah, just wants to know. It's great. The importance is like sort of caring intention.

Of course. In the same way that you do if you're hanging out with your sibling or your very close friend and they do something, there's always a vicarious embarrassment. But this is amplified even more because it's a reflection of you. You're watching yourself do an embarrassing thing as it unfolds live. And you have this normal sibling thing where you're like, stop.

Of course. In the same way that you do if you're hanging out with your sibling or your very close friend and they do something, there's always a vicarious embarrassment. But this is amplified even more because it's a reflection of you. You're watching yourself do an embarrassing thing as it unfolds live. And you have this normal sibling thing where you're like, stop.

Can I give you guys a compliment?

Can I give you guys a compliment?

Which is a levity move. Oh, she's doing it. Really, I think the reason that this podcast and you guys are so great is because you're so good at balancing gravity and levity. It's almost the whole mission of the conversations you have is you want to have stuff you take seriously and you take learning seriously. You take issues and topics seriously. And all the way along, you want it to be fun.

Which is a levity move. Oh, she's doing it. Really, I think the reason that this podcast and you guys are so great is because you're so good at balancing gravity and levity. It's almost the whole mission of the conversations you have is you want to have stuff you take seriously and you take learning seriously. You take issues and topics seriously. And all the way along, you want it to be fun.

You accomplished the mission. I agree that that's the mission. Do you disagree that that's the mission?

You accomplished the mission. I agree that that's the mission. Do you disagree that that's the mission?

My motive?

My motive?

Oh, let's assess why.

Oh, let's assess why.

So we've done research on the relationship between humor and power. Even one joke or one moment where you make other people laugh in a conversation means you're much more likely to be voted as the leader of the group. So I think often when we think of levity or humor, We have a tendency to think of it as like this bonus, this extra sparkly thing that might happen sometimes. And that's nice.

So we've done research on the relationship between humor and power. Even one joke or one moment where you make other people laugh in a conversation means you're much more likely to be voted as the leader of the group. So I think often when we think of levity or humor, We have a tendency to think of it as like this bonus, this extra sparkly thing that might happen sometimes. And that's nice.

When you actually study the psychology of humor and levity in conversation and its relationship with status and power, the core determinant of the status hierarchy. So I think your sense of I'm doing this to reclaim power and control is legitimate.

When you actually study the psychology of humor and levity in conversation and its relationship with status and power, the core determinant of the status hierarchy. So I think your sense of I'm doing this to reclaim power and control is legitimate.

And it's this little micro moment of power because you're like, I know I'm going to say this thing and I'm pretty sure you're going to laugh. Just even that power over somebody to evoke that emotional response in that moment is tremendous. And it signals something about you that you have the competence, the wherewithal, the dominance to make that happen again in the future.

And it's this little micro moment of power because you're like, I know I'm going to say this thing and I'm pretty sure you're going to laugh. Just even that power over somebody to evoke that emotional response in that moment is tremendous. And it signals something about you that you have the competence, the wherewithal, the dominance to make that happen again in the future.

And people read that as a very core competency.

And people read that as a very core competency.

A lot of funny people do this, this recovery thing. I'm here all night. That was the joke. Right. Right. The recovery of like, well, at least I tried. So in this same research where we're studying humor and power, what we found is even when jokes totally flop, people don't laugh. They think they're inappropriate. They don't think they're funny.

A lot of funny people do this, this recovery thing. I'm here all night. That was the joke. Right. Right. The recovery of like, well, at least I tried. So in this same research where we're studying humor and power, what we found is even when jokes totally flop, people don't laugh. They think they're inappropriate. They don't think they're funny.

You still get a boost in how people perceive your confidence because you are at least confident enough to try. Yeah. And even that is admirable.

You still get a boost in how people perceive your confidence because you are at least confident enough to try. Yeah. And even that is admirable.

Moment to moment, when people are talking to each other, when they're walking through the world, what are kind people thinking about and what are they saying to other people? I was, as a psychologist, so curious to try and figure that out. And I think we've come up with some pretty concrete answers of what people who are prioritizing other people's needs more frequently than others.

Moment to moment, when people are talking to each other, when they're walking through the world, what are kind people thinking about and what are they saying to other people? I was, as a psychologist, so curious to try and figure that out. And I think we've come up with some pretty concrete answers of what people who are prioritizing other people's needs more frequently than others.

These are kind people. And they do some predictable things during conversation. More respectful language that makes people feel worthy and seen and known and understood.

These are kind people. And they do some predictable things during conversation. More respectful language that makes people feel worthy and seen and known and understood.

Using people's names is a good start. I think you're worthy of even knowing who you are. Just as a starting place. Think of how many conversations you've had where you didn't know someone's name. It's a very uneasy feeling. Because you can't give them that respect. How can I show you that I care about you and respect you if I don't even know your name? That's a weird feeling.

Using people's names is a good start. I think you're worthy of even knowing who you are. Just as a starting place. Think of how many conversations you've had where you didn't know someone's name. It's a very uneasy feeling. Because you can't give them that respect. How can I show you that I care about you and respect you if I don't even know your name? That's a weird feeling.

Let's slap on name tags, guys. Right. Just as a start, that's such a basic thing. But every little linguistic choice you make is an opportunity to show respect or not. Positive language is more respectful than negative. It shows people that you like being with them. Literally things like, great, good, awesome, cool, love that.

Let's slap on name tags, guys. Right. Just as a start, that's such a basic thing. But every little linguistic choice you make is an opportunity to show respect or not. Positive language is more respectful than negative. It shows people that you like being with them. Literally things like, great, good, awesome, cool, love that.

As opposed to negative language that's like, no, uh-uh, hmm, that sucks. That makes you feel like you're not enjoying being with me. And then making people feel like they're worthy of your time and attention, which then ties into listening. So when we think about listening, there's decades of work on active listening, which is mostly nonverbal cue, like nodding, smiling, leaning forward.

As opposed to negative language that's like, no, uh-uh, hmm, that sucks. That makes you feel like you're not enjoying being with me. And then making people feel like they're worthy of your time and attention, which then ties into listening. So when we think about listening, there's decades of work on active listening, which is mostly nonverbal cue, like nodding, smiling, leaning forward.

Two things. You're sort of watching a version of yourself interact in the world. So that's a passive version of feedback where you're seeing how the world reacts to this version of you. But then you're also directly talking to each other in the way that very close siblings do. And you feel even more empowered to be sort of brutal to each other, right? Yeah. Ew, gross. Don't do that. Relentless.

Two things. You're sort of watching a version of yourself interact in the world. So that's a passive version of feedback where you're seeing how the world reacts to this version of you. But then you're also directly talking to each other in the way that very close siblings do. And you feel even more empowered to be sort of brutal to each other, right? Yeah. Ew, gross. Don't do that. Relentless.

And our more recent research on listening, what we find is great conversationalists use their words to show people that they've heard them. Those can't be faked. So if you're sitting on Zoom, you can be like smiling and nodding, but you're off to the side making a grocery list or texting your friends.

And our more recent research on listening, what we find is great conversationalists use their words to show people that they've heard them. Those can't be faked. So if you're sitting on Zoom, you can be like smiling and nodding, but you're off to the side making a grocery list or texting your friends.

What you can't fake are things like follow-up questions, callbacks, which is your ding, ding, ding, I think. Yeah. Right? Love a ding, ding, ding. Can't fake a ding, ding, ding if you didn't hear it the first time. Yep. Paraphrasing what other people have said, repeating back to them what they've said. Am I understanding you right?

What you can't fake are things like follow-up questions, callbacks, which is your ding, ding, ding, I think. Yeah. Right? Love a ding, ding, ding. Can't fake a ding, ding, ding if you didn't hear it the first time. Yep. Paraphrasing what other people have said, repeating back to them what they've said. Am I understanding you right?

There's another piece of kindness that we haven't talked about yet, which is receptiveness to opposing viewpoints. So when you confront a moment of difficulty... where you really disagree, many of these same skills, the listening with your words and validating people, that's when it becomes especially important and especially hard to do. Imagine you hate people who had affairs.

There's another piece of kindness that we haven't talked about yet, which is receptiveness to opposing viewpoints. So when you confront a moment of difficulty... where you really disagree, many of these same skills, the listening with your words and validating people, that's when it becomes especially important and especially hard to do. Imagine you hate people who had affairs.

And in that moment, you're friends with them having an affair. I hate half the world. And in that moment, what a good conversationalist would do would be, I hear that you're saying you had an affair. It makes so much sense that you're feeling upset about that. Let's consider for a second why this is a bad decision.

And in that moment, you're friends with them having an affair. I hate half the world. And in that moment, what a good conversationalist would do would be, I hear that you're saying you had an affair. It makes so much sense that you're feeling upset about that. Let's consider for a second why this is a bad decision.

So before you go on to disagree with them, you have to do that hard work of validating them. And almost everyone skips over that. Totally.

So before you go on to disagree with them, you have to do that hard work of validating them. And almost everyone skips over that. Totally.

Nobody's doing it.

Nobody's doing it.

I love watching that show. Actually, one of the tactics most helpful on that show, they have these really lovely coaches who come in before their dates and they have them brainstorm topics. Ahead of time. And I'm like, yeah, everybody needs to be doing that.

I love watching that show. Actually, one of the tactics most helpful on that show, they have these really lovely coaches who come in before their dates and they have them brainstorm topics. Ahead of time. And I'm like, yeah, everybody needs to be doing that.

In all different vectors. In all different directions.

In all different vectors. In all different directions.

I think to some people, it's not obvious how much more difficult groups are than dyads, than one-on-one, because it feels like you're doing the same task. You're talking, you're listening, you're with other people. It's clear that it's harder to coordinate, but I don't think we've realized how much harder, even here. This whole time, I'm toggling my eye gaze between both of you.

I think to some people, it's not obvious how much more difficult groups are than dyads, than one-on-one, because it feels like you're doing the same task. You're talking, you're listening, you're with other people. It's clear that it's harder to coordinate, but I don't think we've realized how much harder, even here. This whole time, I'm toggling my eye gaze between both of you.

We are still that way. She lives a mile down the road from me. She does. She also has three kids, two boys and a little girl.

We are still that way. She lives a mile down the road from me. She does. She also has three kids, two boys and a little girl.

Monica's so patient. She's such a good listener. And we're all doing this calculus that's quite a bit different than if it were just me and Monica or just me and Dax together. As soon as a third person pulls up a chair, everything changes. Someone can sit there, be part of the conversation and never talk. That's different than one-on-one where you have to go back and forth.

Monica's so patient. She's such a good listener. And we're all doing this calculus that's quite a bit different than if it were just me and Monica or just me and Dax together. As soon as a third person pulls up a chair, everything changes. Someone can sit there, be part of the conversation and never talk. That's different than one-on-one where you have to go back and forth.

And so I think people don't realize that as group size grows, the coordination challenges of all conversations grow exponentially. Every person in the group has a unique shared reality, a unique relationship. What's boring to Dax might be really exciting to me and Monica. So all of those little micro decisions get even more fraught.

And so I think people don't realize that as group size grows, the coordination challenges of all conversations grow exponentially. Every person in the group has a unique shared reality, a unique relationship. What's boring to Dax might be really exciting to me and Monica. So all of those little micro decisions get even more fraught.

And one of the things that we have to navigate is status differences. As people get thrown into the mix, every group has an inherent status hierarchy. So the status hierarchy is determined by all kinds of things. Sometimes it's a formal hierarchy, like at an organization, there's a boss or on an army battalion, there's a leader.

And one of the things that we have to navigate is status differences. As people get thrown into the mix, every group has an inherent status hierarchy. So the status hierarchy is determined by all kinds of things. Sometimes it's a formal hierarchy, like at an organization, there's a boss or on an army battalion, there's a leader.

Sometimes it's age, sometimes it's level of wealth, sometimes it's expertise, but it's other things, gender, it's race. It's all of these things that our minds are doing this calculation of who has the most power here, who has the most liking and respect, who's the most influential. And we do this internal sort of ranking in a group. And it affects all the ways that people behave.

Sometimes it's age, sometimes it's level of wealth, sometimes it's expertise, but it's other things, gender, it's race. It's all of these things that our minds are doing this calculation of who has the most power here, who has the most liking and respect, who's the most influential. And we do this internal sort of ranking in a group. And it affects all the ways that people behave.

Swear to God.

Swear to God.

We tend to look at people who have high status when they're speaking. They speak more. So you look at them. But also when they're not speaking, we look to see their emotional reactions because they determine the norms. Like, are they surprised by this? Are they pissed about this? Should I be pissed about this? Which makes lower status group members feel invisible.

We tend to look at people who have high status when they're speaking. They speak more. So you look at them. But also when they're not speaking, we look to see their emotional reactions because they determine the norms. Like, are they surprised by this? Are they pissed about this? Should I be pissed about this? Which makes lower status group members feel invisible.

She's not a professor. She's a cool twin. She runs a nonprofit. It's amazing. It's called Prime Coalition.

She's not a professor. She's a cool twin. She runs a nonprofit. It's amazing. It's called Prime Coalition.

You're literally not looking at them as much. They feel less welcome to contribute. The revelation that we've sort of realized by studying conversations at the topic level, as you move from one thing to another, the status hierarchy shifts from one topic to the next. Oh, interesting. We start talking about fashion. Yeah. All of a sudden, I am not going to be looking at Dax as much.

You're literally not looking at them as much. They feel less welcome to contribute. The revelation that we've sort of realized by studying conversations at the topic level, as you move from one thing to another, the status hierarchy shifts from one topic to the next. Oh, interesting. We start talking about fashion. Yeah. All of a sudden, I am not going to be looking at Dax as much.

I'm going to be deferring to Monica, who's super cool. Yeah, I forgot to give you my guess. In a little bit.

I'm going to be deferring to Monica, who's super cool. Yeah, I forgot to give you my guess. In a little bit.

But if we switch to a new topic on which I have the most expertise, things are going to change. Imagine there's five other people here who have all different expertise and levels of status. So it's shifting dynamically as we move from one topic to the next. It's not like you go to a work meeting and the boss guy is always top dog.

But if we switch to a new topic on which I have the most expertise, things are going to change. Imagine there's five other people here who have all different expertise and levels of status. So it's shifting dynamically as we move from one topic to the next. It's not like you go to a work meeting and the boss guy is always top dog.

Imagine you land on a topic where all of a sudden low woman on the totem pole has all the value to add. She better feel safe and included enough and welcome to speak when you get to that topic.

Imagine you land on a topic where all of a sudden low woman on the totem pole has all the value to add. She better feel safe and included enough and welcome to speak when you get to that topic.

It's like a self-toast.

It's like a self-toast.

You can. It's how our brains are built.

You can. It's how our brains are built.

Eradication is not the right goal. The goal instead, the sort of reframe is when you are in that high status position, what can you do to lift other people up? When you're in the low status role and you're marginalized, what can you possibly do to cope with a very difficult position that you're in?

Eradication is not the right goal. The goal instead, the sort of reframe is when you are in that high status position, what can you do to lift other people up? When you're in the low status role and you're marginalized, what can you possibly do to cope with a very difficult position that you're in?

It sucks. You have a narrower range of things that you're allowed to say that will be seen as appropriate or as a value add. So then you're less likely to speak. And if you never speak, you're not actually bringing value. Nobody ever gets to know you and what you can do. It's this crazy double buy. Our job is to try and learn as much as we can about each other, regardless of status.

It sucks. You have a narrower range of things that you're allowed to say that will be seen as appropriate or as a value add. So then you're less likely to speak. And if you never speak, you're not actually bringing value. Nobody ever gets to know you and what you can do. It's this crazy double buy. Our job is to try and learn as much as we can about each other, regardless of status.

But you can't eradicate it. It's what we're built to do. And status striving, right? We all want to ascend and maintain.

But you can't eradicate it. It's what we're built to do. And status striving, right? We all want to ascend and maintain.

She's super smart. Yeah, she's the dad when you've never seen anyone who looks as pretty as her.

She's super smart. Yeah, she's the dad when you've never seen anyone who looks as pretty as her.

Yeah, food and safety and attraction and reproduction.

Yeah, food and safety and attraction and reproduction.

Exactly. It's like a weird self-toast. Yeah. But honestly, I admire her so much. She's done really amazing things.

Exactly. It's like a weird self-toast. Yeah. But honestly, I admire her so much. She's done really amazing things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When you say that people's reactions are sometimes not what you expect, in what direction are the reactions surprising or have been surprising?

When you say that people's reactions are sometimes not what you expect, in what direction are the reactions surprising or have been surprising?

Can I tell you who I talked to about this?

Can I tell you who I talked to about this?

Orna.

Orna.

You hang out with Orna. Orna Goralnik from Couples Therapy. So this chapter on apologies opens with this story from Couples Therapy, one of the couples on the show. Which one? Tashira and Drew. They're from, I think, season one or two. They're amazing. She got pregnant and they started living together. They were in a really rocky place. Yes. I think it was in the pandemic phase of the show-ish.

You hang out with Orna. Orna Goralnik from Couples Therapy. So this chapter on apologies opens with this story from Couples Therapy, one of the couples on the show. Which one? Tashira and Drew. They're from, I think, season one or two. They're amazing. She got pregnant and they started living together. They were in a really rocky place. Yes. I think it was in the pandemic phase of the show-ish.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes. And they didn't sleep in the same room, which is fine for those of you who don't go sleep. It's fine. But they were in a really rocky place. I thought that they were not going to end up together. And then you follow them through their therapy. And by the end, one of the things that they got so good at is apologizing to each other. They're not snipping at each other anymore.

Yes. And they didn't sleep in the same room, which is fine for those of you who don't go sleep. It's fine. But they were in a really rocky place. I thought that they were not going to end up together. And then you follow them through their therapy. And by the end, one of the things that they got so good at is apologizing to each other. They're not snipping at each other anymore.

They're not like chewing on their resentments. And so I talked to Orna about it, what she thinks of apologies broadly and in the context of this couple in particular. And she was like, here's what apologies do. Two things. One, they show someone that you understand them, that you understand that there was harm to you.

They're not like chewing on their resentments. And so I talked to Orna about it, what she thinks of apologies broadly and in the context of this couple in particular. And she was like, here's what apologies do. Two things. One, they show someone that you understand them, that you understand that there was harm to you.

Big time.

Big time.

And maybe it was at your hands, maybe it wasn't, but it shows that you understand them. and that you are taking some responsibility, that you care that they've been harmed and that you want to be part of the solution. So that if you can show those two things, that you understand someone and you're taking accountability, if you can do that without apologizing, you don't have to apologize.

And maybe it was at your hands, maybe it wasn't, but it shows that you understand them. and that you are taking some responsibility, that you care that they've been harmed and that you want to be part of the solution. So that if you can show those two things, that you understand someone and you're taking accountability, if you can do that without apologizing, you don't have to apologize.

However, apologies are the best shortcut that we have to do those two things in a sincere and really meaningful way. I really think they're the most powerful thing we have in our conversational toolkit.

However, apologies are the best shortcut that we have to do those two things in a sincere and really meaningful way. I really think they're the most powerful thing we have in our conversational toolkit.

I said the same thing in the book. I wrote a little story about my oldest, Kevin. It was honestly the most rewarding moment I think ever as a parent.

I said the same thing in the book. I wrote a little story about my oldest, Kevin. It was honestly the most rewarding moment I think ever as a parent.

Oh, it's a doozy. He was a heck of a toddler. He was like a biter hitter. Okay. He used to headbutt. He has all these big ideas and he was a late talker. He was so frustrated. He couldn't express them.

Oh, it's a doozy. He was a heck of a toddler. He was like a biter hitter. Okay. He used to headbutt. He has all these big ideas and he was a late talker. He was so frustrated. He couldn't express them.

The whole existence, my whole existence anyway, is every moment you're making these choices of who am I going to be? How are we similar? How are we going to differentiate? When are we going to cooperate and work together and collaborate? When are we going to compete? She's going to play the flute. I'm going to play the oboe. But we're both going to be in the orchestra. Yeah.

The whole existence, my whole existence anyway, is every moment you're making these choices of who am I going to be? How are we similar? How are we going to differentiate? When are we going to cooperate and work together and collaborate? When are we going to compete? She's going to play the flute. I'm going to play the oboe. But we're both going to be in the orchestra. Yeah.

Yeah. So dumb. Yeah. So he was having a tantrum and I picked him up and he flung his head back and he broke my nose. You can see it's like a little crooked. It's okay. I know I still look great. You look crooked. It's fine.

Yeah. So dumb. Yeah. So he was having a tantrum and I picked him up and he flung his head back and he broke my nose. You can see it's like a little crooked. It's okay. I know I still look great. You look crooked. It's fine.

He had to be maybe three at the time. It was so enraging for all the reasons. I still hadn't taught him to be the kind of person who wouldn't hurt someone like that. He also was three, so he didn't really care. A hard mothering phase. Fast forward, he's now nine turning 10. Maybe he was around when he was seven. He was reading Diary of a Wimpy Kid.

He had to be maybe three at the time. It was so enraging for all the reasons. I still hadn't taught him to be the kind of person who wouldn't hurt someone like that. He also was three, so he didn't really care. A hard mothering phase. Fast forward, he's now nine turning 10. Maybe he was around when he was seven. He was reading Diary of a Wimpy Kid.

And the main character, Greg Heffley, we were reading together and Greg Heffley apologized to Rowley, which is his best friend, which was rare. He's kind of usually like a jerk to his best friend. And Kevin paused. And in that moment turned to me and he was like, mom, remember when I broke your nose when I was like a toddler? And I say, yeah. It wasn't great.

And the main character, Greg Heffley, we were reading together and Greg Heffley apologized to Rowley, which is his best friend, which was rare. He's kind of usually like a jerk to his best friend. And Kevin paused. And in that moment turned to me and he was like, mom, remember when I broke your nose when I was like a toddler? And I say, yeah. It wasn't great.

Thank you for the reminder. As I was staring back at me in the mirror every day, he looked in my eyes and he goes, I'm so sorry. Oh, it was so beautiful. I couldn't believe that occurred to him.

Thank you for the reminder. As I was staring back at me in the mirror every day, he looked in my eyes and he goes, I'm so sorry. Oh, it was so beautiful. I couldn't believe that occurred to him.

I think it is more powerful because it's harder to do, harder to say.

I think it is more powerful because it's harder to do, harder to say.

You're right. You are doing an action by apologizing that is harder and more vulnerable to do. It is the action of love rather than just saying it.

You're right. You are doing an action by apologizing that is harder and more vulnerable to do. It is the action of love rather than just saying it.

They're also saying in that moment, I'm saying this to you because I want to have a relationship with you in the future. Because I want you to see me as the kind of person that deserves being in a relationship with. And I want to be with you. And my standards for us are high. Let's get back there.

They're also saying in that moment, I'm saying this to you because I want to have a relationship with you in the future. Because I want you to see me as the kind of person that deserves being in a relationship with. And I want to be with you. And my standards for us are high. Let's get back there.

But this is the crux of kindness always is figuring out what other people need. Do they need to hear the apology? Most of the time the answer is yes.

But this is the crux of kindness always is figuring out what other people need. Do they need to hear the apology? Most of the time the answer is yes.

And every once in a while, if you're apologizing like nine times for the same thing, you're going to start just reminding the person of the thing that happened that wasn't good. There is a tipping point where it becomes too much. Or you just start feeling like, well, that means nothing.

And every once in a while, if you're apologizing like nine times for the same thing, you're going to start just reminding the person of the thing that happened that wasn't good. There is a tipping point where it becomes too much. Or you just start feeling like, well, that means nothing.

She's a three-point shooter. Vice versa. I got that Brooks mid-range.

She's a three-point shooter. Vice versa. I got that Brooks mid-range.

There's a single study of live conversation that shows that refusing to apologize or neglecting to apologize is better than apologizing. But the sort of tipping point is when your partner doesn't feel like it's sincere. Right. You're not doing it well. You're saying like, I'm so sorry you feel that way. There's a lot of ways to give a bad apology.

There's a single study of live conversation that shows that refusing to apologize or neglecting to apologize is better than apologizing. But the sort of tipping point is when your partner doesn't feel like it's sincere. Right. You're not doing it well. You're saying like, I'm so sorry you feel that way. There's a lot of ways to give a bad apology.

So you need to apologize frequently, but do it well.

So you need to apologize frequently, but do it well.

Don't just promise to change. Actually change.

Don't just promise to change. Actually change.

Blowing sobriety or blowing relational.

Blowing sobriety or blowing relational.

Because it's part of the healthy suite of skills that is going to help you do the right thing to begin with. Yeah. If you're able to anticipate it's going to be super hard for me to stonewall for a while, take space, come back, apologize, give them time, then they forgive me, then we move on. That process can be circumvented by not yelling in the first place.

Because it's part of the healthy suite of skills that is going to help you do the right thing to begin with. Yeah. If you're able to anticipate it's going to be super hard for me to stonewall for a while, take space, come back, apologize, give them time, then they forgive me, then we move on. That process can be circumvented by not yelling in the first place.

But we're human. We're all going to mess up. We're all going to yell at people sometimes if they break your nose.

But we're human. We're all going to mess up. We're all going to yell at people sometimes if they break your nose.

His name's Kevin, so I was like the mom from Home Alone. I like popped him down and ran away to look in the mirror.

His name's Kevin, so I was like the mom from Home Alone. I like popped him down and ran away to look in the mirror.

Oh, me too. How fun. You guys, thank you so much for having me.

Oh, me too. How fun. You guys, thank you so much for having me.

We're not quiet, shrinking violet. One of me would have already been a lot.

We're not quiet, shrinking violet. One of me would have already been a lot.

We did a twin trick in my class the first year I ever taught. I didn't tell anyone I had a twin. Saved it till the end of the semester. It was our day on deception. And we dressed the same. And I went in and I did the normal milling with the students before. Then you go out to close the door. But Sarah came back in and she started the class and she just opened her arms and she was like, deception.

We did a twin trick in my class the first year I ever taught. I didn't tell anyone I had a twin. Saved it till the end of the semester. It was our day on deception. And we dressed the same. And I went in and I did the normal milling with the students before. Then you go out to close the door. But Sarah came back in and she started the class and she just opened her arms and she was like, deception.

Thank you Thank you.

Thank you Thank you.

Of course. I think we only dated the same guy once. What if you said four times? You did do that. Maybe when you're young, one year we held hands for a week and then four years later they went on a date. I think that's kind of the extent of it. Because that would be really weird.

Of course. I think we only dated the same guy once. What if you said four times? You did do that. Maybe when you're young, one year we held hands for a week and then four years later they went on a date. I think that's kind of the extent of it. Because that would be really weird.

They are similar in some ways, but quite different. She's always had different tastes than me, actually, in suitors and in the ways that complement how she and I are different from each other. And you saw this a little bit in the book. I was so hard on her about who she was dating. My expectations for who she would end up with were even higher than for myself, which are already so high.

They are similar in some ways, but quite different. She's always had different tastes than me, actually, in suitors and in the ways that complement how she and I are different from each other. And you saw this a little bit in the book. I was so hard on her about who she was dating. My expectations for who she would end up with were even higher than for myself, which are already so high.

Both. Because it's like having a mirror, you actually get a better sense of what you're good at and not good at because you have this example of someone who is actually slightly better or slightly worse than you at certain tasks. As a psychologist now, for a long time, I would have loved to believe that everything is malleable.

Both. Because it's like having a mirror, you actually get a better sense of what you're good at and not good at because you have this example of someone who is actually slightly better or slightly worse than you at certain tasks. As a psychologist now, for a long time, I would have loved to believe that everything is malleable.

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Everything is trainable and learnable and you can change so much about yourself. But I think being an identical twin does highlight how many things are outside your control and genetic. Our hands, if you laid them side by side, I could not tell them apart. Our feet, our voices.

Everything is trainable and learnable and you can change so much about yourself. But I think being an identical twin does highlight how many things are outside your control and genetic. Our hands, if you laid them side by side, I could not tell them apart. Our feet, our voices.

I still to this day answer the phone, hello, this is Allison, because I can't even tell the difference in our voices just on the phone. There are things about our bodies and about your mind that you don't have control over. And then I had my own kids. They each come out so different. And you're like, holy cow, nature's really a thing.

I still to this day answer the phone, hello, this is Allison, because I can't even tell the difference in our voices just on the phone. There are things about our bodies and about your mind that you don't have control over. And then I had my own kids. They each come out so different. And you're like, holy cow, nature's really a thing.

Okay.

Okay.

Psychology was my major, and I got a minor. They called a certificate there in finance, not because I was interested in finance per se, but because I was really interested in economics and this judgment and decision-making behavioral science stuff.

Psychology was my major, and I got a minor. They called a certificate there in finance, not because I was interested in finance per se, but because I was really interested in economics and this judgment and decision-making behavioral science stuff.

In this book and in my course and in conversation in general, there's so much mind reading that you have to do of all people. We're constantly trying to figure out what are they thinking about? How are they feeling? Are they interested in this right now? Are they bored? There's this tremendous level of mind reading. I think

In this book and in my course and in conversation in general, there's so much mind reading that you have to do of all people. We're constantly trying to figure out what are they thinking about? How are they feeling? Are they interested in this right now? Are they bored? There's this tremendous level of mind reading. I think

twins get better at that with each other this is a hypothesis this has not been studied but possibly they get better at it with other people as well because they just had more practice doing it their whole development their whole childhood but i think that's where the stereotype comes from with twins is that they can read each other's minds they've spent a lot of time together they know each other really really well and their brains work similarly see

twins get better at that with each other this is a hypothesis this has not been studied but possibly they get better at it with other people as well because they just had more practice doing it their whole development their whole childhood but i think that's where the stereotype comes from with twins is that they can read each other's minds they've spent a lot of time together they know each other really really well and their brains work similarly see

Totally. And what it has shown me is even though we're so good at predicting what the other person will do, we have this tight knit, which psychologists would call shared reality. You're better at predicting what your twin's going to do than probably anyone else in the world. And I still don't know exactly what she's thinking and feeling. Yeah.

Totally. And what it has shown me is even though we're so good at predicting what the other person will do, we have this tight knit, which psychologists would call shared reality. You're better at predicting what your twin's going to do than probably anyone else in the world. And I still don't know exactly what she's thinking and feeling. Yeah.

It just shows you even when you have so much in common, you have the same upbringing, the same genes, so many shared experiences, you still can't read people's minds. There's still a mystery element. You can get close.

It just shows you even when you have so much in common, you have the same upbringing, the same genes, so many shared experiences, you still can't read people's minds. There's still a mystery element. You can get close.

Literally.

Literally.

The more you interact with somebody, the more you actually care and are good at pattern recognition and pick up on patterns in their behavior and how they think, you can get better at it, especially within specific relationships. But you still don't know perfectly what Monica's thinking all the time.

The more you interact with somebody, the more you actually care and are good at pattern recognition and pick up on patterns in their behavior and how they think, you can get better at it, especially within specific relationships. But you still don't know perfectly what Monica's thinking all the time.

Exactly right.

Exactly right.

Yeah. And emotions.

Yeah. And emotions.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I realized that there was a lot of research in clinical psychology about anxiety and the sort of high level anxiety that requires medication or. therapy. And I was like, you know what, though? Everybody's feeling anxious a lot of the time, and it's influencing how they're walking through the world, all of the decisions they're making, all of these choices, how they talk to other people.

I realized that there was a lot of research in clinical psychology about anxiety and the sort of high level anxiety that requires medication or. therapy. And I was like, you know what, though? Everybody's feeling anxious a lot of the time, and it's influencing how they're walking through the world, all of the decisions they're making, all of these choices, how they talk to other people.

I wonder if there's a way that we can study anxiety in that way, that's sort of outside the sphere of clinical psych as a pathology that needs diagnosis, which is obviously so important. But what about the sort of lower grade normal anxiety that most people are feeling a lot of the time? Let's figure out how that's influencing the choices that they're making as they go through their day.

I wonder if there's a way that we can study anxiety in that way, that's sort of outside the sphere of clinical psych as a pathology that needs diagnosis, which is obviously so important. But what about the sort of lower grade normal anxiety that most people are feeling a lot of the time? Let's figure out how that's influencing the choices that they're making as they go through their day.

Negotiation was one of the places that we looked, but we also looked at advice. When do you seek advice? When do you take advice?

Negotiation was one of the places that we looked, but we also looked at advice. When do you seek advice? When do you take advice?

Who do you seek it from? Do you feel like you have to listen to it? Dax doesn't seek advice from anyone.

Who do you seek it from? Do you feel like you have to listen to it? Dax doesn't seek advice from anyone.

Negotiation has been this course that's been taught at every business school and law school for a long time now. It's a great course. The students show up, they take on these roles and they pretend to be, you know, the manager of a factory and you have to negotiate all this stuff. It's informative. It's great. As I was teaching it, though, a couple of things occurred to me.

Negotiation has been this course that's been taught at every business school and law school for a long time now. It's a great course. The students show up, they take on these roles and they pretend to be, you know, the manager of a factory and you have to negotiate all this stuff. It's informative. It's great. As I was teaching it, though, a couple of things occurred to me.

One, our students at Harvard are already very strategic people. And I was like, do I need to be teaching people who are already quite strategic to be even more... Hard driving. Does that align with my values? That's question number one.

One, our students at Harvard are already very strategic people. And I was like, do I need to be teaching people who are already quite strategic to be even more... Hard driving. Does that align with my values? That's question number one.

Number two, so many of the exercises were like, well, you have to negotiate for a car or you're going to go buy a house or you're going to negotiate a merger or a really big deal at work. I was like, I'm a grown up and I don't really have those conversations very often. Maybe once every two months. But you know what I do all the time?

Number two, so many of the exercises were like, well, you have to negotiate for a car or you're going to go buy a house or you're going to negotiate a merger or a really big deal at work. I was like, I'm a grown up and I don't really have those conversations very often. Maybe once every two months. But you know what I do all the time?

is talk to people in conversations that on their surface should be easy. And then at moments I'm like, oh, this is maybe not as easy or as fun as it should be. So my sort of aperture of what I was getting curious about and thinking about how to help people was sort of widening.

is talk to people in conversations that on their surface should be easy. And then at moments I'm like, oh, this is maybe not as easy or as fun as it should be. So my sort of aperture of what I was getting curious about and thinking about how to help people was sort of widening.

What's that? I love that word. Chin wag is literally your chin just, ah, bah, bah, bah. It's a synonym for talking.

What's that? I love that word. Chin wag is literally your chin just, ah, bah, bah, bah. It's a synonym for talking.

I needed to know. That's what you do here. It's true.

I needed to know. That's what you do here. It's true.

I remember very vividly back when I was teaching the negotiation course, I had a student raise her hand one day and she was like, so is this just about like solving a math problem? Because in the way that those exercises were set up and the way that we think about negotiating, it sort of is because it's all these things that are quantifiable.

I remember very vividly back when I was teaching the negotiation course, I had a student raise her hand one day and she was like, so is this just about like solving a math problem? Because in the way that those exercises were set up and the way that we think about negotiating, it sort of is because it's all these things that are quantifiable.

You've put numbers on what you care about, and then you try and sort of trade on differences to expand the size of the pie and then claim the largest part of it. And as a psychologist, it made me deeply uncomfortable. Not everything is quantifiable. So much about life and about how we feel towards each other is emotional and trust and fun and love.

And I want to keep this private and just felt like we were missing a big piece.

Yeah. And missing a huge part of what it means to be the most human we can be. And we love each other and want to have fun. And it's like not about just sort of transactional. How can I get as much information out of you? How can I tell you the most amount of information? Even now, a lot of economists focus very narrowly on information exchange. Are we exchanging accurate information?

But so much of the social world is not about information exchange at all. We're just looking to fill time. We're looking to conceal information and maintain privacy. We just don't want to feel awkward around other people. We want to have fun. We want to learn from each other. I felt like that whole bit needed more of a focus.

Dang, girl. Mid-range jump shots now.

I mean, we start learning to talk to each other when we're one, one and a half. You're a toddler. You do it every day of your life with an enormous number of people, very diverse range of conversation partners. So by the time you get to be a teenager and then an adult. It's second nature to you. It feels like you should be an expert and maybe you are an expert.

You see other people who are seemingly amazing at it and you're like, wow. And then you feel bad if you feel like you're not.

Right.

When you look under the hood of what's going on during conversation, it is remarkably complex. You get to this point of acceptance where you're like, of course, there's going to be moments of awkwardness. Of course, we're going to forget to say stuff that we meant to say or say things that we regret or interrupt people or have all these little collisions because it's not second nature.

And watching children learn to do it, reading or talking, opens your eyes to how this is not natural. This is not innate. It's hard to learn to read. It takes years to really get good at reading. It takes even longer to learn how to be a good conversationalist. And we get to adulthood and we're still not.

Think about how much time you spend picking out your outfit, making a reservation at the restaurant, buying your makeup, getting your hair done. And literally during all of that, you could be thinking, what are two things we could talk about once we're together? But most people don't do that.

It'll flow.

But also, do you think people might feel like that's contrived? I know people think it's contrived. So we've asked people. There's tremendous aversion to this idea of forethought, particularly for people that you know really well. And it goes back to this assumption or this hope that it's second nature. You have this feeling that conversation should feel natural.

The myth of naturalness. It should feel spontaneous and invented on the spot and a little bit magical that you just land on topics that are fun to talk about and there's never going to be a lull and you're going to just know where to go. And we feel that way even more with people that we know really well and love. We're like, oh, it'll just come.

Which is maybe true a little bit more when you know somebody well compared to like your work colleague that you don't like. But in all of the cases, whether you're averse or not, when you actually have people plan topics ahead of time, their conversations are measurably better.

We actually know very little about when humans evolved the ability to have dialogue and talk to each other. Estimates vary quite widely. There are signs in the archaeological record. The fossil of jewelry is a sign that they must have learned to talk by this point because they had to pass that knowledge down across generations in order for it to be trapped in the archaeological record.

Exactly. And then they make hypotheses about, well, would they have been able to collaborate on this if they hadn't yet learned to actually talk to each other, communicate in some way?

Here's the project. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's how we're trying to figure out when did humans evolve this ability. Then you fast forward. The book starts in the 1700s when there were all of these monarchies in Europe whose kings and queens told people how to talk to each other. Here are the people who are allowed to talk to each other at these times and these are the topics and here are all the compliments you have to say about me.

Yeah. Right. That was it. And then around the French Revolution and right after in the Enlightenment and during what was called the Age of Conversation, people started to realize, oh, we can get together and talk about what we want to talk about. And it was in these fancy salons in Paris and it was happening all over Europe.

And so the book zooms in on Immanuel Kant, who was this famous philosopher.

And he lived a very fascinating, very regimented life. Most of his life, he would get up and he would go for his walk at a specific time. He would sit down and do his work at a specific time. They called him the Koenigsberg clock. Very regimented guy. He was not wealthy until late in his life when he was finally able to afford a home of his own.

A sub teacher. And he would have dinner in these rowdy pubs at night. And as this fancy, very smart philosopher, he would get really annoyed. He's like, this is boring. I want to talk to smart people about my smart ideas. So finally, when he was able to get his own house, he started hosting these dinner parties, which became very well known.

They were highly coveted invitations to Kant's house for these dinner parties. What I found so fascinating to read about and learn is that his dinner parties had all these rules of conversation. So he almost was kind of acting like this little king in his kingdom. And his rules were, we're going to talk about specific topics at the beginning.

We're going to talk about specific topics in the middle. Then we're going to joke at the end. We're going to have food and wine that mirrors each of the phases of the meal. I want to go to this.

So surprisingly, he didn't like debate. He didn't really like when people argued about stuff, especially about the French Revolution. He was like, this is for us to have fun and learn from each other. And it should feel delightful the whole time.

Exactly. And so that was sort of the beginning of it. During the age of conversation, this idea was cropping up all over Europe. There were all these philosophers who were pontificating about what it meant to have good, sparkling conversation. It was sort of subversive because it was the first time that they weren't just doing what the king or queen told them to do.

And then the industrial revolution happened and people started mixing a lot more. We're not just talking about highfalutin philosophers getting their fancy friends together. People are going everywhere all the time. You never know who you're going to run into in all classes and all status. So we need to now figure out what are we talking about? How are we talking?

What are the new rules of conversation?

And you're going to see them on the road as you're walking past and you're allowed to greet each other. If you say hi, what are you going to say? Can you even tell who's who anymore? Right. And I love that.

Yes. So fast forward. So all of this mixing is happening. The big experiment in democracy is happening in America. All the Europeans think that Americans are no good at conversation. We're talking about ourselves all the time. We spit while they're talking. I mean, there's all kinds of stereotypes developing.

Fast forward a bit more, in the mid-1900s, middle of the 20th century, game theory appears. So these are economists and game theorists like John Nash from A Beautiful Mind. Oh, sure, sure.

Yes, Morgenstern, Thomas Schelling. Now, they studied what they called coordination games. which were really simple. But at the time, they were really hot and flashy. So it would be like the game of chicken as a coordination game. Any choice two or more people are making independently that they can't talk to each other. So like in a game of chicken, you're coming towards each other.

You both have to choose, am I going to go right or am I going to go left? But you can't talk about it. If you coordinate, you pass successfully. Motorcycles or Sea-Doos or whatever you're on. Horses with jowls. Yes, exactly. If you miscoordinate, you collide. That's a simple one. There are non-cooperative coordination games, like the Prisoner's Dilemma. Do you know the Prisoner's Dilemma?

No, that's different. That's the Stanford Prison Experiment.

I thought you just had an electric shock just now.

Milgram, that's how I react to the name, too. Yes, Milgram did the Stanford Prison Experiment and the shocks.

No?

Is different.

That was a different guy. I thought Milgram did shocks.

Yes, Stanford Prism. Milgram is like the shock. Milgram. Okay. Oh, yeah. I'm going to quiz you at the end.

Yeah, yeah, because it's a stimulant, right? Yeah. We cut through so many cases of Diet Coke at HBS, at Harvard, because so many of the faculty are ADHD and they're self-medicating. medicating in tiny doses. That makes sense.

Okay, sorry. So yours is separate from all of it. Forget about Zimbardo's Sanford Prison Experiment. Forget about the shock. So the Prisoner's Dilemma is a coordination game that people were thinking about.

You imagine there's two people being questioned in separate rooms, interrogated about a crime, and they both face a choice, and they can't talk to each other about it, to either stay quiet or snitch. If they both stay quiet, they're going to go to jail, but not for very long. If they both snitch, they both go to jail for much longer.

Yeah.

So it seems simple that you should stay quiet, except if you snitch and the other guy stays quiet, you walk free.

Everybody is tempted to betray. And so this is a non-cooperative coordination game because you're incentivized to not cooperate. Oh, interesting.

That's what makes it hard. The biggest reward is to walk free.

In theory, logically, but if you're the person, you start to get the sense of why these games are interesting to people because then you can change all kinds of stuff. Who are you imagining in the other room? What's your relationship with them? What do you know about the person? If you did this game 10 times in a row based on their prior behavior, what do you do in the last round?

Tell me.

These games have been studied so much that I'm sure there are lots of cross-cultural findings about how Germans play, how everyone plays. So economists and game theorists were kind of obsessed with these coordination games. Now fast forward to now. We have whole fields that have been studying social psychology, communication, all of this stuff.

And what I realized is even though we have these whole fields that are about interpersonal interaction, not a lot of people had gone to the trouble of actually recording real people talking to real people at very large scale. The reason they hadn't is because we needed new technology to do it.

We needed natural language processing and machine learning to help us analyze tons of transcripts at once. We just weren't ready to do it until very recently. But as we were sort of like, oh, we should do that. We should record tons of conversations and analyze them.

I also realized conversation is just like those coordination games that the game theorists were studying back in the 1950s, like Thomas Schelling. He has a famous one where he asked people, if you had to meet up with people at noon tomorrow in New York City, where would you go?

Is it a riddle or is it just a fun talking? It's just a coordination game. You can't talk about it. Oh. And everybody writes down their answer.

Let's pick L.A. Let's do it. Okay, yeah. So if you had to meet up with Monica tomorrow somewhere in L.A. at noon, think in your mind where you would go. And it's not here. It can't be here.

Monica, what's your answer? Cara.

Oh, the bar at Cara? Yeah. Or the restaurant.

The most frequent one that people say is Grand Central Station. Everyone will be arriving there.

Thomas Schelling called them focal points. It's because it's stuff that your mind goes to quickly that you think other people are going to do. Yeah, high probability.

Yeah. We're here. That's a focal point for you in your shared reality and your relationship that helps you coordinate. So what we realized about conversation is it's just like these coordination games, except every little detail. moment is like a coordination game. When you're trying to decide, what are we going to talk about next? How are we going to talk about it?

What are they excited for me to ask? Where should we go next? Requires this level of shared reality, these focal points and this mind reading, but it's so much more than just one choice. Do you stay quiet or snitch? It's like, and now, and now, and now, and now, and you have to make those choices relentlessly.

I wanted you to say that it was Britney Spears because she had that, like, amazing... I know. Remember the ad back in the day? She was so hot.

I agree. It is incredible. That's what linguists will tell you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

She was so gorge. I would love to see a resurgence. Get back in it. Britney Spears with the Diet Pepsi. She's the one bringing it back. That's what I want. Addison Rae. Addison Rae. Kind of a new gen Britney Spears, if we're being real.

Thank you.

Yeah, it is.

Thank you. Thank you.

Ariana Grande?

Yes. Look at you with your memory. Holy moly.

Thank you.

I'm turning 40 next month.

Thank you. Thank you.

I am at a major inflection point in my life. You're hitting me at the right time. You're young.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I grew up in upstate New York in the Finger Lakes area. Very Rust Belt-y. Yeah. When I was growing up there, not fancy. Since I've moved away and become an adult, it's a beautiful place, and I think the world is more onto it now.

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Oh! Am I the expert? Maybe. I think I might be the expert.

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That's a good point. Won't be as objective. A lived expert.

It would be a pair like you. One person is the never-ending question asker. The other person's just answering. And every time Monica talks, she has to end by asking a follow-up question. Oh, wow. And it sounds so extreme, but the experience of it is like Scotty. The experience of it is magic. You immediately move away from small talk. You start learning so much about the other person.

He started playing a character. You started asking questions you already knew the answer to. So part of this that matters is that you should do it as yourself.

We talk a lot.

I got these at a local store near where I live.

I love fashion. I actually talk about this with some of my mom friends. As like a fashionista gets older, you get fewer and fewer touch points with people who are actually fashionable, which is alarming because you're like, oh no, I feel myself getting out of touch.

Yes. So I have hundreds of students who are in their 20s. So I get to observe that. I have fancy colleagues who are all ages and flavors of style. I then have all my community friends, cool parents. And then there's social media. So I'm like, am I following the right influencer accounts? Am I getting the right ads?

Calculus for women deciding what to wear in different contexts they find themselves in is so complicated.

Oh, I try not to. So this is part of one of my goals. I used to go much harder when I was in my 20s. I wanted to get noticed. I wanted to be different. I wanted to be the one sort of setting the trend. As I've gotten older, I think it's more about not taking too big of a swing. I don't like that feeling.

No. I played a little safer, I would say. Even today, I was going to wear like a hot pink sweater. And at the last second, I was like, I'm black. Thank you. Wait, you said you were afraid to ask that?

Yeah.

And that's very bonding. I didn't even realize you were doing it to me. You thought this was a random conversation. I thought you were just asking me. That's so fun.

This is something I am always working on in myself about conversation is more quickly revealing my vulnerability, my mistakes, my failures, my moments of embarrassment and shame. I'm so hungry to get it out of other people and probably too slow to share it with others.

So that is very interesting. And we all have multiple selves. But as a twin, you get to see one of your sort of selves outside of your body. It's an amazing, lucky life. I don't know anything else, but it's really quite something.

How do they respond that you think that's not good? They're guarded? They feel threatened?

And then I'm like, bye. You trusted me with your heart and I stomped on it. The reframe of that is that you actually gave it a chance. Nobody needs to waste their time small talking with people.

You're a sharer.

This is verbal kissing. This is you sharing something vulnerable.

There are people, though, every relationship in their life is like this and they want nothing else, myself included. Yeah, same. I have a colleague at Harvard named Leslie John who's writing a book called Reveal. And it's all about this conundrum of the spectrum from full opacity where you share nothing to full transparency.

If you could download the full contents of your brain and give it to somebody else as a gift, we're making these choices constantly of how much do we share of ourselves and what consequences come from it. Closeness.

No.

I think about this all the time. One of the downsides of getting really good at conversation is that you don't actually have the bandwidth to be the best friend, the best boss, the best colleague to a thousand people. And it's such a first world problem.

You're right. I'm not an expert. I don't know those answers. But you're identical. We're identical. We didn't know we were identical until high school. What? The AP biology class was like, hey, can we test you and figure it out? Oh, wow.

If you really work on this skill and people are willing to trust you and share with you and love being with you, the problem then becomes that person actually doesn't have the time and energy to fulfill that role all the time to that many people.

It is not about boomers. Let me say that first of all. It is about humans of all ages and it's named after a boomerang. So it's when I ask you a question. So if I say to you, Monica, how was your weekend?

How was yours? Let me tell you about my weekend. You're asking so that you can talk.

Exactly. Very specific.

Very specific. Yeah. So this is boomer asking because it's like a boomerang. You're throwing out the boomerang. You let them answer and then you bring it right back to yourself immediately.

People do it all the time. I do it.

And then you lay the results side by side. This was way before 23andMe. And they were identical. I mean, looked like the same person. Wow. My parents didn't know they were having twins until I was out. It sounds like the dark ages.

Your hand looks different? Yeah.

It's all about the timing. So if you really want to hear about Dax's hand car experiences, and he shares with you very openly, the important thing is follow up on his thing first. So it feels like you actually care because you do. Yeah. Before we get back to your hand changing into a new hand. Luckily, he did not understand what I was talking about.

So we study that exactly. Oh, tell me. So we randomly assign people to either start with a question, let someone answer and then tell a story or just tell the story. Just telling the story is better. Whether you're bragging, whether you're complaining or whether you're just saying something weird and neutral. Yeah. Like, oh, I think my hand morphed into a different hand.

It's better to just share it. Which then may trigger reciprocity. That's the hope. But you don't have control over that. But you're going to get the satisfaction of sharing whatever this thing you're dying to share. And you hope that the person you're talking to is actually interested and ask about it or share about themselves. Yeah, interesting.

That's almost a gotcha question unto itself. It's not. It's not. It's not. A gotcha question is really in the eye of the receiver. If the person feels like you're testing them.

Leading them, making them feel like you want to prove how incompetent they are, that they're a liar, expose them as a fraud. So if I were to say, Dax, you said that you were an actor. Are you acting in anything right now? Oh, yeah. Like, what the hell? You could do it for fun. If we're best friends and I want to tease you, that's a really funny way to do it.

If we're not, and that's a legitimate question, what an asshole. That's a really quick way to make someone feel really bad.

No, I'm reading you as you're asking me this to embarrass me, to exploit me, to make me look bad. But it's a gotcha question. The same question lobbed from someone who doesn't actually know the answer and really cares about you. Yeah, just wants to know. It's great. The importance is like sort of caring intention.

Of course. In the same way that you do if you're hanging out with your sibling or your very close friend and they do something, there's always a vicarious embarrassment. But this is amplified even more because it's a reflection of you. You're watching yourself do an embarrassing thing as it unfolds live. And you have this normal sibling thing where you're like, stop.

Can I give you guys a compliment?

Which is a levity move. Oh, she's doing it. Really, I think the reason that this podcast and you guys are so great is because you're so good at balancing gravity and levity. It's almost the whole mission of the conversations you have is you want to have stuff you take seriously and you take learning seriously. You take issues and topics seriously. And all the way along, you want it to be fun.

You accomplished the mission. I agree that that's the mission. Do you disagree that that's the mission?

My motive?

Oh, let's assess why.

So we've done research on the relationship between humor and power. Even one joke or one moment where you make other people laugh in a conversation means you're much more likely to be voted as the leader of the group. So I think often when we think of levity or humor, We have a tendency to think of it as like this bonus, this extra sparkly thing that might happen sometimes. And that's nice.

When you actually study the psychology of humor and levity in conversation and its relationship with status and power, the core determinant of the status hierarchy. So I think your sense of I'm doing this to reclaim power and control is legitimate.

And it's this little micro moment of power because you're like, I know I'm going to say this thing and I'm pretty sure you're going to laugh. Just even that power over somebody to evoke that emotional response in that moment is tremendous. And it signals something about you that you have the competence, the wherewithal, the dominance to make that happen again in the future.

And people read that as a very core competency.

A lot of funny people do this, this recovery thing. I'm here all night. That was the joke. Right. Right. The recovery of like, well, at least I tried. So in this same research where we're studying humor and power, what we found is even when jokes totally flop, people don't laugh. They think they're inappropriate. They don't think they're funny.

You still get a boost in how people perceive your confidence because you are at least confident enough to try. Yeah. And even that is admirable.

Moment to moment, when people are talking to each other, when they're walking through the world, what are kind people thinking about and what are they saying to other people? I was, as a psychologist, so curious to try and figure that out. And I think we've come up with some pretty concrete answers of what people who are prioritizing other people's needs more frequently than others.

These are kind people. And they do some predictable things during conversation. More respectful language that makes people feel worthy and seen and known and understood.

Using people's names is a good start. I think you're worthy of even knowing who you are. Just as a starting place. Think of how many conversations you've had where you didn't know someone's name. It's a very uneasy feeling. Because you can't give them that respect. How can I show you that I care about you and respect you if I don't even know your name? That's a weird feeling.

Let's slap on name tags, guys. Right. Just as a start, that's such a basic thing. But every little linguistic choice you make is an opportunity to show respect or not. Positive language is more respectful than negative. It shows people that you like being with them. Literally things like, great, good, awesome, cool, love that.

As opposed to negative language that's like, no, uh-uh, hmm, that sucks. That makes you feel like you're not enjoying being with me. And then making people feel like they're worthy of your time and attention, which then ties into listening. So when we think about listening, there's decades of work on active listening, which is mostly nonverbal cue, like nodding, smiling, leaning forward.

Two things. You're sort of watching a version of yourself interact in the world. So that's a passive version of feedback where you're seeing how the world reacts to this version of you. But then you're also directly talking to each other in the way that very close siblings do. And you feel even more empowered to be sort of brutal to each other, right? Yeah. Ew, gross. Don't do that. Relentless.

And our more recent research on listening, what we find is great conversationalists use their words to show people that they've heard them. Those can't be faked. So if you're sitting on Zoom, you can be like smiling and nodding, but you're off to the side making a grocery list or texting your friends.

What you can't fake are things like follow-up questions, callbacks, which is your ding, ding, ding, I think. Yeah. Right? Love a ding, ding, ding. Can't fake a ding, ding, ding if you didn't hear it the first time. Yep. Paraphrasing what other people have said, repeating back to them what they've said. Am I understanding you right?

There's another piece of kindness that we haven't talked about yet, which is receptiveness to opposing viewpoints. So when you confront a moment of difficulty... where you really disagree, many of these same skills, the listening with your words and validating people, that's when it becomes especially important and especially hard to do. Imagine you hate people who had affairs.

And in that moment, you're friends with them having an affair. I hate half the world. And in that moment, what a good conversationalist would do would be, I hear that you're saying you had an affair. It makes so much sense that you're feeling upset about that. Let's consider for a second why this is a bad decision.

So before you go on to disagree with them, you have to do that hard work of validating them. And almost everyone skips over that. Totally.

Nobody's doing it.

I love watching that show. Actually, one of the tactics most helpful on that show, they have these really lovely coaches who come in before their dates and they have them brainstorm topics. Ahead of time. And I'm like, yeah, everybody needs to be doing that.

In all different vectors. In all different directions.

I think to some people, it's not obvious how much more difficult groups are than dyads, than one-on-one, because it feels like you're doing the same task. You're talking, you're listening, you're with other people. It's clear that it's harder to coordinate, but I don't think we've realized how much harder, even here. This whole time, I'm toggling my eye gaze between both of you.

We are still that way. She lives a mile down the road from me. She does. She also has three kids, two boys and a little girl.

Monica's so patient. She's such a good listener. And we're all doing this calculus that's quite a bit different than if it were just me and Monica or just me and Dax together. As soon as a third person pulls up a chair, everything changes. Someone can sit there, be part of the conversation and never talk. That's different than one-on-one where you have to go back and forth.

And so I think people don't realize that as group size grows, the coordination challenges of all conversations grow exponentially. Every person in the group has a unique shared reality, a unique relationship. What's boring to Dax might be really exciting to me and Monica. So all of those little micro decisions get even more fraught.

And one of the things that we have to navigate is status differences. As people get thrown into the mix, every group has an inherent status hierarchy. So the status hierarchy is determined by all kinds of things. Sometimes it's a formal hierarchy, like at an organization, there's a boss or on an army battalion, there's a leader.

Sometimes it's age, sometimes it's level of wealth, sometimes it's expertise, but it's other things, gender, it's race. It's all of these things that our minds are doing this calculation of who has the most power here, who has the most liking and respect, who's the most influential. And we do this internal sort of ranking in a group. And it affects all the ways that people behave.

Swear to God.

We tend to look at people who have high status when they're speaking. They speak more. So you look at them. But also when they're not speaking, we look to see their emotional reactions because they determine the norms. Like, are they surprised by this? Are they pissed about this? Should I be pissed about this? Which makes lower status group members feel invisible.

She's not a professor. She's a cool twin. She runs a nonprofit. It's amazing. It's called Prime Coalition.

You're literally not looking at them as much. They feel less welcome to contribute. The revelation that we've sort of realized by studying conversations at the topic level, as you move from one thing to another, the status hierarchy shifts from one topic to the next. Oh, interesting. We start talking about fashion. Yeah. All of a sudden, I am not going to be looking at Dax as much.

I'm going to be deferring to Monica, who's super cool. Yeah, I forgot to give you my guess. In a little bit.

But if we switch to a new topic on which I have the most expertise, things are going to change. Imagine there's five other people here who have all different expertise and levels of status. So it's shifting dynamically as we move from one topic to the next. It's not like you go to a work meeting and the boss guy is always top dog.

Imagine you land on a topic where all of a sudden low woman on the totem pole has all the value to add. She better feel safe and included enough and welcome to speak when you get to that topic.

It's like a self-toast.

You can. It's how our brains are built.

Eradication is not the right goal. The goal instead, the sort of reframe is when you are in that high status position, what can you do to lift other people up? When you're in the low status role and you're marginalized, what can you possibly do to cope with a very difficult position that you're in?

It sucks. You have a narrower range of things that you're allowed to say that will be seen as appropriate or as a value add. So then you're less likely to speak. And if you never speak, you're not actually bringing value. Nobody ever gets to know you and what you can do. It's this crazy double buy. Our job is to try and learn as much as we can about each other, regardless of status.

But you can't eradicate it. It's what we're built to do. And status striving, right? We all want to ascend and maintain.

She's super smart. Yeah, she's the dad when you've never seen anyone who looks as pretty as her.

Yeah, food and safety and attraction and reproduction.

Exactly. It's like a weird self-toast. Yeah. But honestly, I admire her so much. She's done really amazing things.

Yeah.

When you say that people's reactions are sometimes not what you expect, in what direction are the reactions surprising or have been surprising?

Can I tell you who I talked to about this?

Orna.

You hang out with Orna. Orna Goralnik from Couples Therapy. So this chapter on apologies opens with this story from Couples Therapy, one of the couples on the show. Which one? Tashira and Drew. They're from, I think, season one or two. They're amazing. She got pregnant and they started living together. They were in a really rocky place. Yes. I think it was in the pandemic phase of the show-ish.

Yeah.

Yes. And they didn't sleep in the same room, which is fine for those of you who don't go sleep. It's fine. But they were in a really rocky place. I thought that they were not going to end up together. And then you follow them through their therapy. And by the end, one of the things that they got so good at is apologizing to each other. They're not snipping at each other anymore.

They're not like chewing on their resentments. And so I talked to Orna about it, what she thinks of apologies broadly and in the context of this couple in particular. And she was like, here's what apologies do. Two things. One, they show someone that you understand them, that you understand that there was harm to you.

Big time.