Ana Swanson

Yeah, he says he wanted to learn about different cultures and got to travel a lot around Asia.

Yeah, he says he wanted to learn about different cultures and got to travel a lot around Asia.

And when he came back, he ended up at Harvard studying government and economics in the 80s. He finished his Ph.D., he moves out to Southern California, and he starts teaching economics and public policy at UC Irvine. And then he decides to run for mayor of San Diego.

And when he came back, he ended up at Harvard studying government and economics in the 80s. He finished his Ph.D., he moves out to Southern California, and he starts teaching economics and public policy at UC Irvine. And then he decides to run for mayor of San Diego.

He loses that election, and over the next several years, a couple of huge economic policy shifts happen that really shape his thinking. First, in 1994, comes NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement. And this is a really important moment for the U.S. economy because this was the first time that the U.S. was engaging in a free trade agreement with a developing country, Mexico.

He loses that election, and over the next several years, a couple of huge economic policy shifts happen that really shape his thinking. First, in 1994, comes NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement. And this is a really important moment for the U.S. economy because this was the first time that the U.S. was engaging in a free trade agreement with a developing country, Mexico.

And then in 2001, China enters the World Trade Organization, this other big moment in trade that really shifts the politics of trade in America.

And then in 2001, China enters the World Trade Organization, this other big moment in trade that really shifts the politics of trade in America.

That's right. And it's after these big policy shifts when Navarro starts to see something happening with his students that bothers him.

That's right. And it's after these big policy shifts when Navarro starts to see something happening with his students that bothers him.

He's trying to figure out what's going on, and he lands on something that he calls the China price. And what's that? So he's observing this strange ability for Chinese firms to offer prices that are so much lower than other competitors. And he's saying that is starting to put U.S. manufacturers out of business. So he does a study to try to understand just how they're getting their prices so low.

He's trying to figure out what's going on, and he lands on something that he calls the China price. And what's that? So he's observing this strange ability for Chinese firms to offer prices that are so much lower than other competitors. And he's saying that is starting to put U.S. manufacturers out of business. So he does a study to try to understand just how they're getting their prices so low.

So one way companies could get their prices low is by paying their workers lower wages. But Navarro finds that China is doing a lot more than that.

So one way companies could get their prices low is by paying their workers lower wages. But Navarro finds that China is doing a lot more than that.

And he's so troubled by this that he ends up writing three books on China. The first was called The Coming China Wars. It just got skewered in the financial times.

And he's so troubled by this that he ends up writing three books on China. The first was called The Coming China Wars. It just got skewered in the financial times.

He's right that a lot of people agree now that the Chinese government was not playing by international trade rules. But even if they were, I think the entry of basically a billion people into the global economy would have been a huge shock either way. And it ends up being kind of complicated in terms of who benefited and who lost. Okay, so let's talk about that.

He's right that a lot of people agree now that the Chinese government was not playing by international trade rules. But even if they were, I think the entry of basically a billion people into the global economy would have been a huge shock either way. And it ends up being kind of complicated in terms of who benefited and who lost. Okay, so let's talk about that.

Tell me what some of the benefits are first. So the first benefit is that you do have a lot of Chinese people lifted out of poverty. So hundreds of millions of Chinese people who are moving out of poverty into the middle class. And then you have basically the American standard of living today created. How many people do you know who love Costco, who love to buy inexpensive things off of Amazon?

Tell me what some of the benefits are first. So the first benefit is that you do have a lot of Chinese people lifted out of poverty. So hundreds of millions of Chinese people who are moving out of poverty into the middle class. And then you have basically the American standard of living today created. How many people do you know who love Costco, who love to buy inexpensive things off of Amazon?