Andy Bloch

This is Mark again.

And one of the effects of this or the implications of these data are that a pathological gambler going into the casino who's actually losing, his brain is firing like he's winning.

Oh, it's way crazy.

And so you are experiencing those same sensations as a win when you're not winning.

whether or not she's completely controlled by or has control over her own behavior, I think is open to debate.

It depends, I guess, on your worldview of if you believe in free will and choice or if you believe that people's behavior is under environmental control.

Well, as a behavioral psychologist, I would tend to believe the latter.

Well, I think I would probably need to look at the case more.

What happened earlier on that led her into this mess that she found satisfaction from gambling away her life savings?

Okay, well, right.

Okay, well, I guess if you're going to push me on this, I would say that the casino should not be held accountable.

Should not be held accountable because I think they only played a participating factor in a complex life.

Not guilty.

Sarah Koenig, these days she's at Serial Productions, hosting her own podcast and also helping out with shows like their latest one, The Idiot, which you may remember we excerpted a few weeks ago and which I still recommend.

Since we first broadcast today's show, Mark Dixon moved from SIU to the University of Illinois.

Thanks to Charles Duhigg, who now writes for The New Yorker, his book The Power of Habit, which is where we heard about this story.

There's our sale online in many, many places, including his own website, charlesduhigg.com.

If you or somebody you know is struggling with a gambling problem, the National Council on Problem Gambling has resources.

You can call or text 1-800-MY-RESET.

We'll be right back.