Andy Darroch

So something that's already not...

100% transparent.

And I don't mean that in a derogatory way.

It's just the nature of the type of loans that are in there.

It becomes often more Byzantine, more opaque, less transparent what you're invested in.

And again, when returns are good, no one cares.

But when returns aren't, people care a lot.

What's the Buffett thing when the tide goes out?

Yeah, when the tide goes out, you see who's been swimming naked has got to be one of the most used terms in the world.

And I think there might be some high net worth investors that will get a pretty good view of some sea cucumbers over the next couple of years, I fear.

On that as well, like these are loans, right?

So ideally they're rolling over.

So in a perfect world, you know, you might not be able to sell all these things instantly, but, you know, it depends on the manager.

They might have a hundred, they might have more, they might have less loans.

And every quarter, a certain degree of those should be rolling over.

So it's not that you'll never get your money back, even in, you know, worst case scenario, XYZ fund, freezes, gates, whatever.

It's just when you will get it back.

That's the key thing here.

Yeah, just on that though, like if you are, you know, getting credit from a loan or debt or whatever from a private credit firm, it generally means that you're probably not able to get it from a bank or the bond market.

So one of the, one of the issues people have with the space at the moment, and particularly on this SaaSpocalypse type thing is that a lot of these businesses aren't as backed by, you know, hard assets as you would like as a creditor.