Anne Applebaum

And that seems to have kind of, I'm sure there are divisions within that group, but it doesn't leave any room for other conversations, you know, about what kind of other regime we would like.

But this is almost a, you know, the strange thing about this is it's almost a moot point.

I mean, even whatever you think of the Iraq war,

During the invasion, after the invasion, there was a constant conversation about Iraqis and attempts to reach Iraqis and speak to Iraqis.

And there was concern about giving the Iraqis agency so that they could run their own country someday.

And nobody wanted to have a long-term occupation.

That was never the point.

And here there seems to be almost no conversation about the Iranians and what they want and how we could help them live better.

or make them a country that's better integrated with the Middle East.

And that seems to be very odd.

I mean, you know, you're asking that question, but almost nobody else does.

Yeah, I think actually the religious aspect of theocracy in Iran did make a difference.

I mean, if you believe that your power is justified by God and that your...

part of an eternal movement that is legitimate and doesn't need to brook any conversation or debate or opposition because the long range of history will demonstrate that you were right.

I think that gives you a different attitude to the world.

And I think it gives you a different attitude maybe even to fighting.

I mean, I think it's not an accident that the Iranians produced so many people who were inspired by suicide missions and visions of virgins in heaven who would make it all worthwhile.

I mean, it can motivate people and it can give people a sense of certainty that others don't have.

I mean, I suppose there are sort of secular religions like Marxism used to be that give people something similar.

But I think the Iranian regime with its