Anne Applebaum

You've just hit on a really, really important point about alliances. One of the things that makes the United States different from other large superpowers on the planet is that we have had for many decades these values-based alliances. that are based on long-term relationships, trading relationships, cultural relationships, military ties, but also personal ties.

The U.S., Europe, Australia, Japan, South Korea, these are countries that have worked together in ways that are deeper than mere opportunism. And they've understood those relationships for a long time as being kind of win-win relationships. They're not zero-sum. It's not like one person wins, one person loses. And you're right. Unlike the relationships of the autocratic world,

The U.S., Europe, Australia, Japan, South Korea, these are countries that have worked together in ways that are deeper than mere opportunism. And they've understood those relationships for a long time as being kind of win-win relationships. They're not zero-sum. It's not like one person wins, one person loses. And you're right. Unlike the relationships of the autocratic world,

The U.S., Europe, Australia, Japan, South Korea, these are countries that have worked together in ways that are deeper than mere opportunism. And they've understood those relationships for a long time as being kind of win-win relationships. They're not zero-sum. It's not like one person wins, one person loses. And you're right. Unlike the relationships of the autocratic world,

they're not merely opportunistic. They're not simply to achieve, you know, a business deal. You know, they're meant to be long term and they're meant to last a long time. And they are, of course, right now under threat.

they're not merely opportunistic. They're not simply to achieve, you know, a business deal. You know, they're meant to be long term and they're meant to last a long time. And they are, of course, right now under threat.

they're not merely opportunistic. They're not simply to achieve, you know, a business deal. You know, they're meant to be long term and they're meant to last a long time. And they are, of course, right now under threat.

This is right. So, yes, the Soviet Union did seek to appear to be an international law abiding state. And it took seriously criticisms of the Soviet Union at the U.N. This is actually before both of our time. But there's a famous scene at the U.N., you know, many decades ago when Khrushchev, who was then the leader of the Soviet Union, famously was supposed to have banged his shoe on the table.

This is right. So, yes, the Soviet Union did seek to appear to be an international law abiding state. And it took seriously criticisms of the Soviet Union at the U.N. This is actually before both of our time. But there's a famous scene at the U.N., you know, many decades ago when Khrushchev, who was then the leader of the Soviet Union, famously was supposed to have banged his shoe on the table.

This is right. So, yes, the Soviet Union did seek to appear to be an international law abiding state. And it took seriously criticisms of the Soviet Union at the U.N. This is actually before both of our time. But there's a famous scene at the U.N., you know, many decades ago when Khrushchev, who was then the leader of the Soviet Union, famously was supposed to have banged his shoe on the table.

OK. And the reason why he, which, by the way, it's not clear whether it really happened, but it's one of those things that's too good to check. But supposedly banged his shoe on the table. And the reason he did it was because another delegate, if memory serves, it was from someone from the Philippines, but I could be wrong, had accused him of violating the rights of people in Central Europe.

OK. And the reason why he, which, by the way, it's not clear whether it really happened, but it's one of those things that's too good to check. But supposedly banged his shoe on the table. And the reason he did it was because another delegate, if memory serves, it was from someone from the Philippines, but I could be wrong, had accused him of violating the rights of people in Central Europe.

OK. And the reason why he, which, by the way, it's not clear whether it really happened, but it's one of those things that's too good to check. But supposedly banged his shoe on the table. And the reason he did it was because another delegate, if memory serves, it was from someone from the Philippines, but I could be wrong, had accused him of violating the rights of people in Central Europe.

And that's outrageous. You know, we would never do that, you know. So what he was objecting to was a criticism of the Soviet Union was depriving of people of rights. So you are right that what we're seeing now, this began with Russia actually, is a group of states who no longer even pretend that they are conforming to international law.

And that's outrageous. You know, we would never do that, you know. So what he was objecting to was a criticism of the Soviet Union was depriving of people of rights. So you are right that what we're seeing now, this began with Russia actually, is a group of states who no longer even pretend that they are conforming to international law.

And that's outrageous. You know, we would never do that, you know. So what he was objecting to was a criticism of the Soviet Union was depriving of people of rights. So you are right that what we're seeing now, this began with Russia actually, is a group of states who no longer even pretend that they are conforming to international law.

In fact, one of the primary reasons, I believe, for the Russian invasion of Ukraine three years ago, and we're almost at the anniversary, Three years ago was because, I mean, obviously it was part of the reason was Putin wants a new Russian empire. Part of the reason was he wanted to show that he would crush democracy in Ukraine to discourage any Russians from wanting to take that route.

In fact, one of the primary reasons, I believe, for the Russian invasion of Ukraine three years ago, and we're almost at the anniversary, Three years ago was because, I mean, obviously it was part of the reason was Putin wants a new Russian empire. Part of the reason was he wanted to show that he would crush democracy in Ukraine to discourage any Russians from wanting to take that route.

In fact, one of the primary reasons, I believe, for the Russian invasion of Ukraine three years ago, and we're almost at the anniversary, Three years ago was because, I mean, obviously it was part of the reason was Putin wants a new Russian empire. Part of the reason was he wanted to show that he would crush democracy in Ukraine to discourage any Russians from wanting to take that route.

But he also wanted to say, look, I can do this. I can invade Ukraine. I can bomb civilians. I can kidnap children. He's kidnapped 20,000 children, taken them from occupied Ukraine to Russia. I can torture people. I can defy the Geneva Conventions, the UN Charter, all kinds of institutional language on human rights. I can do all of this and you can't stop me.