Anthony D. Romero
Appearances
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
That's a good process for us, Ben, because we're not going to be able to kind of turn people out on a dime like this one. We've got to bring people along in the narrative, show them the impunity with which this government is operating and thumbing its nose at the rule of law. We're going to have to grab the right of center with us. We have to bring corporations with us.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
A government that openly defies rule of law and decides to disregard judicial orders is a government that will not be good for corporate interests. It will completely crater the ability for corporations. If you gut the ability for the judicial system to adjudicate right and wrong and hold people accountable, That's going to be very bad for business.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
We're going to have to drag those groups with us, bring them along, convert people as we go. And that's why I think ultimately when the government says, oh, I'm not going to listen to the Supreme Court on the Venezuelan case. I'm going to ship them out without due process, without giving them the notice of requirement, without giving them documents that are required.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
At the final end stage, that's got to be a political solution where people say, no, no, that's not the country we live in. The federal government and one president does not have the ability to openly disregard the law.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
And so that's why I think it's probably a very good thing for us that we take Judge Boasberg, who had been our judge in the Alien Enemies Act case, has continued to probe the issue around whether or not they are in violation and had proceeded with criminal contempt in his matters. I think that's great. Because it slowly builds the narrative where people say, whoa, this is going way too far.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
And then people ultimately will have to vote with their own feet and with their own political power. We've got to let them know that this will not be accepted by large numbers of people. It can't be for lawyers. This can't be a crisis for people like me. It's got to be a crisis for people all across this country, ordinary folk.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
On our website, we have everything on our website. It's constantly updated. We also have an organizing platform, People Power, where people can sign up. be trained, we'll give them materials, we'll give them information. I wanna make sure that they sign up for multiple groups. I mean, there are other groups that are also doing really important work. This is not one stop shopping, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
It's my privilege. My pleasure. Yeah. And they turned those buses around. We got the call from the Supreme Court. I think the clerk called at 1 a.m. to tell us about the order. And that was over the Easter weekend. It's been crazy, Ben. I mean, we've had we have filed 39 lawsuits thus far and we'd be here all day if we had to talk about all of them. You've got the major points. The highlights.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
There's no way to save our democracy with one click of the button. So you gotta sign up with Democracy Forward, you gotta sign up with Public Citizen. There's a whole bunch of other groups, Planned Parenthood, especially as they find themselves in the crosshairs of being defunded, critically important, we defend that institution. This is a time for people to really engage
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
the organizations and the causes that matter most. If he goes after the environmental groups, oh my God, we've got a swarm, right? There's a whole discussion about whether or not they're going to go after the environmental groups because of their advocacy around climate justice. And, you know, I think this is one of the things that the American people, I saw this in Trump 1.0.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
You know, we had filed this lawsuit on family separation. Great lawsuit. We won in court. Where we really won was in the court of public opinion when people said, oh, no, you can't take kids away from their mothers. as a way to kind of deter them from coming to this country. That's cruel. That's torture.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
And when people finally, from celebrities and artists and ordinary people, Laura Bush, right, former first lady, you know, not known for her activism, especially on social media, when they finally all came out, that's when they realized, oh, we've got to backtrack. And that's exactly what we've got to build for here.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
Totally. And when they're saying reasonable notice, they were trying to say that reasonable notice would be as little as 12 hours. to give someone notice that they're being deported out of the country into a third country. I mean, these are Venezuelans being moved to El Salvador. It's one of the worst prisons in the world.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
And the notice they were giving them were documents in English that they could not fully apprehend. So, I mean, that really is going to kind of, I think, stick in the craw of the Supreme Court. When they say reasonable notice, you can't say, a paper that the person can't read within 12 hours.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
And we just shuffle you out of the country into a third party country and lock you up possibly for the rest of your life in the most dangerous prison in the Western hemisphere. And that's saying a lot is really I don't think it's going to fly.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
Because I don't know what's gonna, the future portends. But I know I'm overly neurotic and I prepare for the worst case. And so we have been marching through organizational plans even before when even Biden was in the race. And then when Kamala Harris got into the race, we were planning out for what we would do if Trump were to win the presidency a second time.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
We know his playbook from the first time around. At that time, we filed 434 legal actions against the Trump administration. But we knew the same playbook would not work in Trump 2.0. And so we need to redouble our efforts and rethink it.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
So we issued a bunch of public documents, I think seven memos all in, analyzing the Trump campaign's promises on all these different issue areas, abortion, voting rights, immigrants. Free speech. But then we spent a lot of time internally kind of studying, like, how would we operationalize those plans?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
And so that's why on the first day when he signed the executive order trying to undo birthright citizenship, we can talk about I think it's trampling on hollowed ground.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
right but we were able to file our lawsuit first of any other organization or entity within two hours of him signing that executive order because we had figured out the theories we had figured out where we're going to file we had identified clients pregnant women immigrants in in the jurisdiction we wanted to file whose kids would be born after the executive order would go into effect and whose kids would be stripped of u.s citizenship so we had kind of gamed it all out
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
And then so when we saw that the executive order was coming down the pike, we were ready to hit play. And that's been our playbook all throughout. I mean, even with the Alien Enemies Act, we had kind of mapped out a bunch of those issues.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
Now, some of this we're having to make up in real time because the facts are changing, the circumstances are changing, the rulings from the Supreme Court or the district courts requires to be nimble and to change our strategy as it evolves. But the level of, there were literally thousands of ACLU staff hours spent on a Trump strategy even before the election.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
And then after he became president, we had to get even doubly more ready.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
Yeah, we were surprised. So this one is not our case. This is a series of other cases brought by state attorneys general. And so it's more on the procedural matter around birthright citizenship, about whether or not they have standing to bring this case and whether or not a federal judge should be able to grant a nationwide injunction across the whole country.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
So it's going to be on the more limited procedural issues. But obviously, we'll be reading the tea leaves like everybody else to see that when ultimately the full question is broached. You know, can Donald Trump, by executive order, revoke birthright citizenship? So let's break it down for a second, because for me, this is one of the most important cases we've got, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
Birthright citizenship was put in place to fix America's original sin with chattel slavery. It's how we took the children of slaves and made them citizens. It is hollowed ground. The 14th Amendment was the way in which we perfected this American experiment in democracy and equality under the law.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
It's also the way that we ensured that after generations of immigrants came to our nation's shores, that we were all equal citizens under the law. If you were born here, you're an American.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
period right so this idea that we're going to kind of delve into a person's family background if your mother or your father were not u.s citizens if they were not here lawfully that we will deny you citizenship it really is a massive power grab on some of the most critical side of issues that affect this country like
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
who we are as a people, the fact that we are a nation of immigrants, of all people, equal under the law, right? And so that's why, for me, this is one of the most important cases. Because if he is allowed to undo birthright citizenship with an executive order, something that's in the statute, it's been codified in statute, and it's in the Constitution, right? It's the 14th Amendment.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
then we really are in much more perilous ground than I think we want to be. So that's why this first case is really about, it should have been, I didn't think they would grant oral argument on it. Usually they handle the preliminary motions like this one on the shadow doc and they issue opinions if they want to, but this one they've granted oral argument, surprising to many.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
I'm going to try to get down there for May 15th. We want to see ultimately how they might be stacking up. I think we win this one. I've been betting on this one. I don't usually bet because the Supreme Court always breaks my heart. But I think this one, even we get...
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
some of the kind of conservatives like the textualists like uh like justice gorsuch how could he not rule that the plain language both in the statute and in the 14th amendment governed here um but we'll have to see how the uh how the procedural arguments go on the 15th and then it will be back up at the court i think with on on the merits at some subsequent points
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
And here we played a role, but frankly, there have been other groups that have really carried more of the burden and pulled the sled more than we have. Public Citizen, Democracy Forward, two of our sister groups have really played a tremendous role in challenging the elimination of workers from the workforce out of Doge. What we've done is the ACLU in the early days decided to kind of
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
carpet bomb probably the wrong metaphor i'm sure but to kind of drop over 40 freedom of information acts on the federal agencies telling them tell us what information doge is accessing and for what purposes and on whom right we use foia freedom of information as democracy's x-ray it's a way to make sure that you have sight lines into what's happening in our democracy when a government like this one is so opaque and so non-transparent
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
So recently, I think just yesterday, we then converted some of those actions into full-on lawsuits because they've been dragging their feet on giving us the data on veterans, on whether or not the IRS is turning over data on immigrants. And so that will give us... the material with which to file subsequent lawsuits as well.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
There have been a whole series of other suits that other groups have filed, like Public Status, like I mentioned, and Democracy Forward, on the rights of federal government employees. Obviously, AMG, the Government Workers Union for Federal Workers, has been deeply involved with it. And one of the things that I will say, Ben, on your podcast is that
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
This is such a moment that the level of coordination among different organizations has been nothing like I've seen in my 24 years as head of the ACLU. It is brilliant. They say they're shock and awing us. I am shocked and awed at the level of coordination, of goodwill, of sharing of resources, of passing the baton so that we can all run this relay. And so this is not just an ACLU battle.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
This is really a whole ecosystem of nonprofit organizations, of lawyers who are going to hold the government's feet to the fire.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
Well, we've got to take it every day. You don't give up an inch. Everything they try to accomplish, we must make them fight for, right? Every step of the way. That's why the capitulation of these law firms and of some of these universities was so disheartening to me. Those were moments where I just said, damn. I mean, you cannot give that up without a fight.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
You've got to make sure if they're going to grab more ground, every inch they have to battle us for. And that's why I am really proud on our lawyers on the Alien Enemies Act case. This is the case on behalf of the Venezuelans who they want to kind of move out of the country. Some of them they moved, some of them they were not able to.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
and say that they have invoked the 1798 statute, the Alien Enemies Act statute, to say that they have the ability to deny people due process and remove them to third-party countries. I mean, it is incredible to me. We've had the lawyers pull all-nighters.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
You know, when the Supreme Court said, well, now you have to file habeas petitions in each of the different jurisdictions, most of the people would have said, We got up and did it, right? So we started filing habeas after habeas in every single one of these district courts. We will do that.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
And then they're saying, oh, no, now we need to kind of have a more better knowledge around the due process or the notice requirements. We are tracking it then. And part of what we need to do collectively is not surrender an inch without a pitched battle. Make them fight for every little success. Because that is what we're here for.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
And when they try to intimidate us, which they're trying to do now, there's all these rumors around executive orders that are going to come down. They're going to come down on environmental groups or immigrants groups or democracy groups. We don't know. We'll have to wait and see.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
We are already so well organized to make sure that we do not see an inch without giving it everything we've got collectively.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
They've got lawyers ready to go general or litigating like the birthright citizenship case. That's not our case. That's the cases of the attorneys general from the blue states. I love it. I love it. I mean, it's just like, we have to divide and conquer. There's way too much going on. And so, you know, the case in Maryland, not my case. Someone else's, of Abrego Garcia.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
They're handling, they're doing a beautiful job on that case. And we're talking with them, we're sharing notes. We're comparing. We're sharing information. But I think this is one of those moments when you really have to kind of divide up the work. And especially if the executive orders that are anticipated are coming down, it would be targeting kind of the weaker parts of the nonprofit ecosystem.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
Then we all have a responsibility to kind of show up and stand up in solidarity and do everything we can.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
we've got to build the public momentum and support for this. So that means the time and the narrative is on our side, right? So you have to then continue to use all the legal procedures to put the screws tighter into them, right? civil sanctions, right?
The MeidasTouch Podcast
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero on Trump Lawsuits
And just if they kind of defy openly a court order, then we can ask the judges to start imposing civil sanctions on those government officials who are openly defying the order. There'll be a whole process by which to determine and adjudicate culpability, like who's actually thumbing their nose at the courts. We take that.