Arthur Kroeber

So there were a few more communication channels that they handed off to Trump that I think have not been made use of.

So we're back to essentially zero except for the trade.

And that is a very, very dangerous situation to be in with regard to global public health, any kind of sort of global coordination, whether it be on macroeconomics or climate effort or whatever, and on these issues like AI, right?

I think that's a really bad place to be.

So we're starting at a, I think, a rather dangerous position.

I think it should be a priority to figure out how we can get there.

And it's very hard to see how we get there given the political environment, frankly, in both countries.

So in the United States, you have this narrative that

China is this bad actor.

They have an illegitimate government.

They are a systemic rival.

We basically have to contain, constrain, control them.

And any kind of interaction with them is in and of itself dangerous.

So you have people in Congress saying, I don't want to go to China.

There's no point in going to China.

A, because I'll pay a political price for it if I go there.

I will be tarred as someone who went to China and therefore is tainted.

And what can I possibly learn?

I already know what I need to know, right?

So you have...