Audra McDonald
Appearances
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
I think a couple reasons, but the main one is because I am a mother of two girls. I also have two step-sons. And I am that mom that is sometimes off, not necessarily leading what I call the glamorous life. For me, my life gets glamorous when I get to be home with my family. Sometimes I feel very guilty sometimes. about being gone and being away.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
So the song speaks to those fears for me and what my children might actually think or feel in terms of wanting and needing me and missing me and not having me there. So I sing that song as therapy for my fears, I guess.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
It's a theater household.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
Yes, and I have to say, my youngest one is most, you know, because our other kids are a product of, my husband is an actor, Will Swenson, and, you know, our kids from our other marriage is a product of one performer and then someone who's not a performer, but our little one, poor thing. Yeah. That's just a child of performers' DNA coming in on both sides.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
And it really was a Thanksgiving dinner that I had probably about six years ago. And... The late, great Gavin Creel was a very, very dear friend of ours. Very, very, very close. We were very close to him. And we usually spent Thanksgivings together. And he was there. And he said, I want to talk to you about something. I want to talk to you about something. And then he pulled me into the garage.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
And our little one, who just turned eight a couple days ago. We were at a get-together, and a friend of mine was also at this get-together, and he's also in Gypsy. And we were getting ready to start rehearsals, and he went up to Sally, and he's like, you know I'm going to be working with your mom in Gypsy. And he said, is anything, what do you want to tell me? And she said, well...
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
First of all, she's got a lot of vibrato.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
He's like, here, come here, come here, come here. You need to play Rose in Gypsy. You got to do it. You just got to do it. Can you imagine a black woman? It has to be you. You got to do it. You got to do it. I was like, what? You're crazy. He's like, you have to do this. You have to do this. And I was like, huh, that's interesting. Yeah, I could see how it could be played by a black woman.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
And yeah, that'd be a real challenge. And then just conversations kind of started. And Stephen Sondheim was obviously still alive at the time. And he was very supportive of the idea and said yes. And then we started down that long road. And it just took a long time for it all to come together, timing and whatnot.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
Sondheim another one that I miss terribly he's always been an incredible teacher and supporter very supportive my career has always sort of like offered suggestions and ideas and he would come to all my shows and just be supportive and whenever I was in any sort of performance involving his music, he was there and had his thoughts. And I just felt very supported by him.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
And so when it was brought up to him, he thought it was a great idea. And he said, I think that's terrific. And actually there was another show of his too that, you know, he kind of wanted me to be a part of as well. And I was like, well, is it okay if we do this one first? He's like, whichever one you want to do first, that's fine with me. What's the other one? A little night music.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
Maybe some of that.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
Let me get this one out of the way.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
Oh, no, no, no. You have to, you know, I mean, the great thing about Gypsy is, is while it's based on, you know, the real life story of Gypsy Rose Lee, it is very specifically about
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
On the libretto, the only way they were able to legally actually do it, because June Havoc almost tried to stop Arthur Lawrence and Jerome Robbins and Stephen Sondheim because she wasn't happy with the way she was being depicted in the show. And so the way that they were able to legally get beyond that was to call this a musical fable. And so it's suggested by, you know, her history.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
So obviously I start with that as source material. You know, you have to. And then I sort of build in, okay, she can still be from Seattle, of course. There were black people in Seattle then. There's enough actual history that I can then use based on Rose's life and what I know about life for black people at that time as well and bring that into the story too.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
It's not saying, oh, we have to kind of make believe that there were black people performing in vaudeville at this time. We have to kind of make believe that there were black people in Seattle. There were black people who ended up becoming strippers or any of that. We don't have to make believe. It actually happened. It actually existed. And so it's embodied.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
But I will say we're not changing a single solitary line in the show. Not a single solitary one. There's no need. And some of them actually exist. hit in a different way. Really? When you think about some of the lines coming out of a black woman, they hit in a different way in 2024.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
Square sort of things that don't historically maybe line up in a literal way It's a musical fable That's all I got I have a lot more but that's all I'll say it's a musical fable. It's a fable How do you square that people just burst into song? Look, I mean, I have dealt with this my entire career.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
You know, people upset with me for, you know, that I was playing Carrie in Carousel saying, well, she wouldn't have been black. There's a man who comes down from heaven with a star in his hand. People who are going to want to come and see the show and take the journey with us can take the journey. Those who want to intellectualize and make it about something else, they can do that too.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
But that's what we're doing. We're telling the story. Amen.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
Yeah, I had gone to Juilliard because I was from Fresno and I wanted to be on Broadway. I've known that I wanted to be on Broadway since I was nine and I moved there. to New York and I went to Juilliard because they accepted me. But I auditioned in the vocal department instead of in the acting department. It was probably what I should have done.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
But I just thought, well, I have a strong voice so I'll do that. And so what I underestimated was how much I would be shoved in the classical direction vocally. And I wasn't really given the opportunity to take acting lessons, to take movement or, you know, diction like all the other acting students at Juilliard were doing. You know, people like, actually, I was in school with Viola Davis.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
She was there at the same time as well and other really wonderful people. But I was stuck. I was watching them do this and I wasn't. And here I was in New York at Juilliard practicing. My address was literally Broadway. And I had never felt so far away from my goal, which was Broadway. So I left school. I like to joke that I did the four-year program in five years.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
And I left Juilliard for a little while because I just couldn't handle it anymore. And one of the things I ended up doing while I was taking some time off was I auditioned for things and I got into the touring company of the Secret Garden. And so I went on the road with that. And then I came back and did the last two months of Secret Garden on Broadway and finished school at the same time.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
And then from that, I went back out on the road and I got an agent and my agent said, we've got this audition for you for Carousel.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
I marry Mr. Snow Then it's off to home we'll go And both of us will look a little dreamy Roger McDonald singing a bit from Carousel, and she's talking with The New Yorker's Michael Shulman.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
We started the day working on Everything's Coming Up Roses. And then after lunch, we did Roses Turn. So that's how my day's gone today.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
It breezes below
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
I wasn't even thinking leading lady. I was, you know, a little black girl from Fresno, nine years old, in this dinner theater. Got to be Uncle Jocko's kitty. I was, you know, a kid in the ensemble of Hello, Dolly! I, you know, I ended up, they cast me when I was 16 to play Eva Peron and Evita at the local dinner theater.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
It's very intense. Very intense, yeah. But...
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
Which was a big scandal because they double cast the role and the other woman was a 23 or 24 year old white woman. And so this is Fresno land of like Devin Nunes.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
Right. So, yeah. So people would call the box office and say, is the black or the white one on tonight? I'm not even kidding. But, you know, in my estimation, I just wanted to be on Broadway. I just wanted to do theater, and I wanted to be on Broadway, and I didn't care what I did. As long as I got to be on Broadway, that was the goal, you know?
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
It was guided primarily as a means of sort of like to be therapy for me because I was a hyperactive child who was having a lot of problems in school, not socializing well, considered very overdramatic. And... But not functioning well, you know? And they were told, let's try Ritalin. This was 1976, 77. Let's try Ritalin.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
And my parents thought, no, we don't want to, I'm not judging anybody who does do it. And my parents weren't either. They just said, we don't think that's right for our girl. But they knew that I liked to sing. And they had gone to see a show at this dinner theater and said, why don't you go and audition for that? And that lit me up.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
Yeah. Dark for you. I mean, was it a longtime dream of mine? No. No. It's a show that I obviously grew up knowing and loving, and I was in it in my dinner theater in Fresno, California. I played one of Uncle Jocko's kiddies. And, you know, I've seen, you know, the few iterations that I've been able to see, you know, obviously in the movie, the TV movie. Yeah.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
Yeah. Um, so the dinner theater had their main stage where they would have the musicals and then they had a smaller stage where they would do plays called the second space. And, um, They were doing The Miracle Worker, and I auditioned and got cast as sort of the servant black girl, slave girl. I don't think she's a slave, but she's a servant girl in The Miracle Worker.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
And I guess I just went and auditioned without telling my parents whatever. And when I got cast, they said, you will absolutely not be playing that role. Absolutely not. And I was upset. And they said, you'll understand when you're older, but we don't want you doing that. And so they put their foot down. And I understand it. I understand why they did that. You know, my parents were educators.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
My dad ended up being associate superintendent of schools in Fresno, California before he retired. And my mom worked at California State University. for years, and, like, I remember trying to watch Little Rascals, and they were like, no, no, no, no, no, you're not watching that.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
You know, they, you know, pride in who I was and pride in being a black person and not demeaning myself in a society that, you know, sought to demean and separate and other black people was something they were very... very adamant about making sure that I had pride in myself in that way. And so, no, I remember trying to thinking about trying to audition for showboat as well.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
Audra McDonald on Stephen Sondheim, “Gypsy,” and Being Black on Broadway
And they were like, you ain't doing that. You can do it. Not that. I mean, again, wonderful musical, but my parents were like, there's other, you don't need to do that.