Aytekin Tank

At that time, we had like 15,000 free users. And then once I released that paid version, I was able to convert like 500 to them to the paid version. I remember as soon as I announced the new paid version, half an hour later, someone from Spain, it was very early in the morning. So someone from Spain was the first customer, then someone from the UK, I believe, and then from the East Coast.

At that time, we had like 15,000 free users. And then once I released that paid version, I was able to convert like 500 to them to the paid version. I remember as soon as I announced the new paid version, half an hour later, someone from Spain, it was very early in the morning. So someone from Spain was the first customer, then someone from the UK, I believe, and then from the East Coast.

And then all these subscribers trickling in. And it was a great feeling. Even though they were just paying $9, it was an amazing feeling.

And then all these subscribers trickling in. And it was a great feeling. Even though they were just paying $9, it was an amazing feeling.

I remember one of our developers once came to me. This was a very long time ago. And he said, OK, yeah, we built the, we rewrote JotForm the third time. So are we going to work on something new now? And I said, look at these users, look at these customers, all these requests coming from these customers and how they use our product that we can never finish with this product.

I remember one of our developers once came to me. This was a very long time ago. And he said, OK, yeah, we built the, we rewrote JotForm the third time. So are we going to work on something new now? And I said, look at these users, look at these customers, all these requests coming from these customers and how they use our product that we can never finish with this product.

We have to continue working on improving it. And what happened was over time, um, we discovered that we are not just a form builder, right? In the beginning, it was just like, can we build a product that can let people like, they can just go and build their own forms on their own easily. Like just make the easiest form builder. And, uh, That was our focus.

We have to continue working on improving it. And what happened was over time, um, we discovered that we are not just a form builder, right? In the beginning, it was just like, can we build a product that can let people like, they can just go and build their own forms on their own easily. Like just make the easiest form builder. And, uh, That was our focus.

But over the years, we started seeing that people weren't just using it to create forms. People don't just create forms so that they can collect data. It's actually about some... workflow. It's about some task. It's about some work that needs to be done. So someone is making a request for something. Someone is registering for something. Someone is making a payment to purchase something.

But over the years, we started seeing that people weren't just using it to create forms. People don't just create forms so that they can collect data. It's actually about some... workflow. It's about some task. It's about some work that needs to be done. So someone is making a request for something. Someone is registering for something. Someone is making a payment to purchase something.

There are just so many use cases for forms. and people aren't just filling the forms just to send the data because there is just like so many things happening after that there's a workflow so we started seeing our job as to helping people automate all the things they do once they get the data with the form so we start building all these additional features and products

There are just so many use cases for forms. and people aren't just filling the forms just to send the data because there is just like so many things happening after that there's a workflow so we started seeing our job as to helping people automate all the things they do once they get the data with the form so we start building all these additional features and products

So, for example, recently we released JotForm Sign. So it's a full-blown e-signature product, very similar to DocuSign, because we saw that people who actually had forms, they also needed e-signatures. So we also released this product called JotForm Apps, where you can actually create this mobile app from your forms. And let's say within your company, you have all these forms.

So, for example, recently we released JotForm Sign. So it's a full-blown e-signature product, very similar to DocuSign, because we saw that people who actually had forms, they also needed e-signatures. So we also released this product called JotForm Apps, where you can actually create this mobile app from your forms. And let's say within your company, you have all these forms.

And we actually found the idea because we had the need. Like I was asking people, okay, where is this form? Like where is this HR form? Where is this like, you know, request form? Like I was asking people about like all these forms because we were using our product as much as possible. But I was always losing the URLs for the forms. Right.

And we actually found the idea because we had the need. Like I was asking people, okay, where is this form? Like where is this HR form? Where is this like, you know, request form? Like I was asking people about like all these forms because we were using our product as much as possible. But I was always losing the URLs for the forms. Right.

so we asked like why don't we create a tool where you can actually add all these forms you can build that you can even add more stuff you can add links you can add all these things you can build a app just a no code product uh and then you can even let people install this app uh on their mobile forms or if they want to use it uh from browser they can use it online so we we came up with the idea for jot from apps and that became very successful among our users

so we asked like why don't we create a tool where you can actually add all these forms you can build that you can even add more stuff you can add links you can add all these things you can build a app just a no code product uh and then you can even let people install this app uh on their mobile forms or if they want to use it uh from browser they can use it online so we we came up with the idea for jot from apps and that became very successful among our users

as well. There was a need for document generation because once you fill a form, all that data can be used to create this PDF file, to create a document so you can store it as a durable document, you can send it to other people. We created this PDF designer where you can actually create your document.

as well. There was a need for document generation because once you fill a form, all that data can be used to create this PDF file, to create a document so you can store it as a durable document, you can send it to other people. We created this PDF designer where you can actually create your document.

We added all these tools because the goal was not just to help them create forms, but to help people with all their workflows. And because I've been involved with so much with this automation stuff, I actually wrote a book about it. Last year, I released...

We added all these tools because the goal was not just to help them create forms, but to help people with all their workflows. And because I've been involved with so much with this automation stuff, I actually wrote a book about it. Last year, I released...

the book automate your busy work and it became a wall street journal bestseller and uh and in that book i i actually talk about what i learned uh as an entrepreneur automating all the things like all the busy work because that was a big struggle for me uh what i learned automating the stuff uh what is the company what kind of uh

the book automate your busy work and it became a wall street journal bestseller and uh and in that book i i actually talk about what i learned uh as an entrepreneur automating all the things like all the busy work because that was a big struggle for me uh what i learned automating the stuff uh what is the company what kind of uh

things we automated that actually resulted in so much more productivity and how we helped people automate their busy work with our product. So all those things that because I have been involved with automation so much, it just makes sense to write the book about it and I think it turned out to be a great book and it was released last year and it found a great audience.

things we automated that actually resulted in so much more productivity and how we helped people automate their busy work with our product. So all those things that because I have been involved with automation so much, it just makes sense to write the book about it and I think it turned out to be a great book and it was released last year and it found a great audience.

like I kind of hated it because it wasn't very challenging. Like just, you know, typing HTML to create forms or just handle them backend to send emails, things like that. So I wanted to find a product that can actually do that. And I searched for it. There were some products, but they were well done.

like I kind of hated it because it wasn't very challenging. Like just, you know, typing HTML to create forms or just handle them backend to send emails, things like that. So I wanted to find a product that can actually do that. And I searched for it. There were some products, but they were well done.

And when you have customers, when you have so many customers, so many users, millions of users, that even if I created a new product, the amount of value you provide is multiplied by the number of people who will actually get that value, right? So if you already have 25 million users here,

And when you have customers, when you have so many customers, so many users, millions of users, that even if I created a new product, the amount of value you provide is multiplied by the number of people who will actually get that value, right? So if you already have 25 million users here,

Why don't you just go and provide more value to them as opposed to come up with a new idea and try to just get new users, new customers to the new idea, which is very difficult. So I kind of found a way to kind of satisfy that entrepreneurship. like that need by actually building those new additional features, products to the existing users.

Why don't you just go and provide more value to them as opposed to come up with a new idea and try to just get new users, new customers to the new idea, which is very difficult. So I kind of found a way to kind of satisfy that entrepreneurship. like that need by actually building those new additional features, products to the existing users.

And that's a great way to actually kind of provide value to your existing users. And we also recently released our enterprise version. And for the first, I believe, 12 years of JotForm, probably more than 12 years, there was no salesperson. It was all SaaS service. So people would come to JotForm and they would use the free version, upgrade to the paid version. It's great.

And that's a great way to actually kind of provide value to your existing users. And we also recently released our enterprise version. And for the first, I believe, 12 years of JotForm, probably more than 12 years, there was no salesperson. It was all SaaS service. So people would come to JotForm and they would use the free version, upgrade to the paid version. It's great.

And I'm kind of an introvert. So it's just like I never liked sales. I'm not a salesperson. You know, and I also didn't know any salespeople. So it's just, you know, this was good and comfortable. But I remember once there was this like big company customer who, you know, who asked me like, hey, come to our office. You know, we want to buy like we want to pay you a lot and just, you know.

And I'm kind of an introvert. So it's just like I never liked sales. I'm not a salesperson. You know, and I also didn't know any salespeople. So it's just, you know, this was good and comfortable. But I remember once there was this like big company customer who, you know, who asked me like, hey, come to our office. You know, we want to buy like we want to pay you a lot and just, you know.

uh, buy just form like for the company. And I was like, you know, uh, and I was at that time, like I had some other stuff, like I didn't, you know, I, I didn't feel like, you know, taking, going, uh, taking a plane and going there like, and, uh, and then, uh, I lost that customer. That was a potential big client and I didn't do it. And we actually didn't have a product for a whole company anyway.

uh, buy just form like for the company. And I was like, you know, uh, and I was at that time, like I had some other stuff, like I didn't, you know, I, I didn't feel like, you know, taking, going, uh, taking a plane and going there like, and, uh, and then, uh, I lost that customer. That was a potential big client and I didn't do it. And we actually didn't have a product for a whole company anyway.

So it's just, we were lacking something. And that's when I came up with the idea of JotForm Enterprise. Okay, why don't we create a product for bigger companies, for companies who want to use it as a team, like for users who want to use it as a team, like who want to collaborate, who want to, you know, share data among each other, share forms among

So it's just, we were lacking something. And that's when I came up with the idea of JotForm Enterprise. Okay, why don't we create a product for bigger companies, for companies who want to use it as a team, like for users who want to use it as a team, like who want to collaborate, who want to, you know, share data among each other, share forms among

teams uh things like that uh so and like actually learning sales like building a sales team right it it was something uh completely like something i didn't know what so uh this was uh 20 i think uh this was like 2018 so we created the just from enterprise product uh so i had my first sales

teams uh things like that uh so and like actually learning sales like building a sales team right it it was something uh completely like something i didn't know what so uh this was uh 20 i think uh this was like 2018 so we created the just from enterprise product uh so i had my first sales

Hello, Chris. Great to be on your show. Thank you for that great introduction.

Hello, Chris. Great to be on your show. Thank you for that great introduction.

uh higher like and uh this was coming from a big sales company like you know big title like very knowledge he came in and he couldn't sell a single uh jot form to a company so it's It didn't work out. Like he kind of came from a big company. So he didn't have that startup knowledge or just started from scratch. So that didn't work out. So I hired someone else. And she also didn't work out.

uh higher like and uh this was coming from a big sales company like you know big title like very knowledge he came in and he couldn't sell a single uh jot form to a company so it's It didn't work out. Like he kind of came from a big company. So he didn't have that startup knowledge or just started from scratch. So that didn't work out. So I hired someone else. And she also didn't work out.

She couldn't figure out a way to sell just one, but we were also improving the product. So I promoted someone from within the company that also didn't work out. So like three times I failed. Because I have no sales experience, I didn't even know what kind of salesperson would be the first sales, what would be the best person. So finally, from my network, I was introduced to the fourth person.

She couldn't figure out a way to sell just one, but we were also improving the product. So I promoted someone from within the company that also didn't work out. So like three times I failed. Because I have no sales experience, I didn't even know what kind of salesperson would be the first sales, what would be the best person. So finally, from my network, I was introduced to the fourth person.

And this person actually had experience helping startups build sales teams. He actually did that before. He knew what to do and he knew how to sell it. So he came in and I was ready to give up. I was like, Hey, you know, just, I don't want to fire anybody else. Just, you know, why don't we just do it like a three month deal? Just let's have a quota for three months.

And this person actually had experience helping startups build sales teams. He actually did that before. He knew what to do and he knew how to sell it. So he came in and I was ready to give up. I was like, Hey, you know, just, I don't want to fire anybody else. Just, you know, why don't we just do it like a three month deal? Just let's have a quota for three months.

If you can sell JotForm Enterprise, then that's great. Like we can continue. And, you know, if you don't like it, you know, it's also, so we just started as a contractor for three months and then he came in and he started, he did an amazing job. He passed the quota and then,

If you can sell JotForm Enterprise, then that's great. Like we can continue. And, you know, if you don't like it, you know, it's also, so we just started as a contractor for three months and then he came in and he started, he did an amazing job. He passed the quota and then,

he actually you know uh he also worked really well with our team so we built all the necessary uh like all necessary like features compliances because you know there are no companies like shell who use jetform and those kind of like big companies they need like compliances like they need a suck to compliance

he actually you know uh he also worked really well with our team so we built all the necessary uh like all necessary like features compliances because you know there are no companies like shell who use jetform and those kind of like big companies they need like compliances like they need a suck to compliance

They need, you know, some, you know, if they are healthcare company, they need HIPAA compliance. So there are all these like different kind of stuff that's needed if you are selling to enterprise. You cannot have that if you don't have like a team that can actually work on all those things. So he came in, he built the team.

They need, you know, some, you know, if they are healthcare company, they need HIPAA compliance. So there are all these like different kind of stuff that's needed if you are selling to enterprise. You cannot have that if you don't have like a team that can actually work on all those things. So he came in, he built the team.

So now we have like 20 salespeople and just for enterprise is now 30% of our revenues. It started from zero to 30% of our revenues in just like, you know, five years.

So now we have like 20 salespeople and just for enterprise is now 30% of our revenues. It started from zero to 30% of our revenues in just like, you know, five years.

Yeah, I mean, you have to make those mistakes to learn from them. Sometimes there's no shortcut. Yes, yes.

Yeah, I mean, you have to make those mistakes to learn from them. Sometimes there's no shortcut. Yes, yes.

I guess it's about... And before I started JotForm, I never managed anybody, right? I was an individual contributor as a developer in my previous job. But luckily, I hired my first employee the first year, second employee, second year. So literally, for the first five years, I only added like one person to the company every year. So learning management was really important for me.

I guess it's about... And before I started JotForm, I never managed anybody, right? I was an individual contributor as a developer in my previous job. But luckily, I hired my first employee the first year, second employee, second year. So literally, for the first five years, I only added like one person to the company every year. So learning management was really important for me.

But I will say, I think it's also about the time management. So how you use your time. So I remember a few years into JotForm, and we were like three, four employees at this time. And I was spending all my day. There wasn't any customer support. So I was spending all my day doing customer support. answering emails, accounting, legal, HR, ordering supplies for the office.

But I will say, I think it's also about the time management. So how you use your time. So I remember a few years into JotForm, and we were like three, four employees at this time. And I was spending all my day. There wasn't any customer support. So I was spending all my day doing customer support. answering emails, accounting, legal, HR, ordering supplies for the office.

I was busy with the busy work. But what I really liked was working on my product. And that's what actually made the difference in the long term. And And I was really struggling. And right at this moment, something else happened. Google actually came to the ring. Google Forms was released. So now I'm not really moving forward with my product. I'm struggling. I'm spending all my day with busy work.

I was busy with the busy work. But what I really liked was working on my product. And that's what actually made the difference in the long term. And And I was really struggling. And right at this moment, something else happened. Google actually came to the ring. Google Forms was released. So now I'm not really moving forward with my product. I'm struggling. I'm spending all my day with busy work.

And now I have to compete with Google. So it was a turning point for me. I think that's when I decided, OK, I have to change something. And the solution was automation. and delegation. For example, I went to Upwork, at that time it was called Odesk. I went to Upwork and I hired these support employees, contractors from all over the world. and just handed over the support work to them.

And now I have to compete with Google. So it was a turning point for me. I think that's when I decided, OK, I have to change something. And the solution was automation. and delegation. For example, I went to Upwork, at that time it was called Odesk. I went to Upwork and I hired these support employees, contractors from all over the world. and just handed over the support work to them.

And I started automating all the work, like all the HR work, I started automating them. You know, the way we developed our product, we streamlined and automated everything. So it's just, and like, I was spending like, maybe like five, six hours a day, and I was able to

And I started automating all the work, like all the HR work, I started automating them. You know, the way we developed our product, we streamlined and automated everything. So it's just, and like, I was spending like, maybe like five, six hours a day, and I was able to

automate many things I do and I was able to reduce that to like one hour a day I think that was the biggest one so automation and delegation really saved me and just I learned to focus on the most important thing automation And every morning, you know, I make sure that I just, you know, launch this full screen text editor, iRider on Mac and just a blank screen blinking, you know, white blinking.

automate many things I do and I was able to reduce that to like one hour a day I think that was the biggest one so automation and delegation really saved me and just I learned to focus on the most important thing automation And every morning, you know, I make sure that I just, you know, launch this full screen text editor, iRider on Mac and just a blank screen blinking, you know, white blinking.

uh cursor and then i start typing what's the most important thing i can work on today and just if nothing comes to my mind i will just write whatever comes to my mind and at some point like okay this is a really important thing and sometimes there are like urgent emails there and i don't check my emails i don't check uh you know the social media or anything i just make sure that i i focus on that most important thing for the for the day and

uh cursor and then i start typing what's the most important thing i can work on today and just if nothing comes to my mind i will just write whatever comes to my mind and at some point like okay this is a really important thing and sometimes there are like urgent emails there and i don't check my emails i don't check uh you know the social media or anything i just make sure that i i focus on that most important thing for the for the day and

That's the most important thing.

That's the most important thing.

Yeah. So I've worked for internet.com between 2000 and 2005, and I was a developer. So we had over 100 websites, and these websites were all about things like web development, about all kinds of technology stuff. And while I was working there as a developer, one of my tasks was to create these online forms for our editors.

Yeah. So I've worked for internet.com between 2000 and 2005, and I was a developer. So we had over 100 websites, and these websites were all about things like web development, about all kinds of technology stuff. And while I was working there as a developer, one of my tasks was to create these online forms for our editors.

I'm on Twitter. I'm also writing on, you know, Forbes, Fast Company, Entrepreneur. And I also have a website, my first name, last name, .com, itakingtank.com, where I have, you know, you can get like the free first chapter of my book, uh, you know, read it for free. Um, and like all my articles on my blog posts are there as well. Um, so yeah, that's where you can find me.

I'm on Twitter. I'm also writing on, you know, Forbes, Fast Company, Entrepreneur. And I also have a website, my first name, last name, .com, itakingtank.com, where I have, you know, you can get like the free first chapter of my book, uh, you know, read it for free. Um, and like all my articles on my blog posts are there as well. Um, so yeah, that's where you can find me.

So I would create these contact forms, surveys, questionnaires, contest forms, payment forms, all kinds of forms. And, like, at that time, like, I kind of hated it because, you know, it wasn't very challenging, like, just, you know, typing HTML to create forms or just, you know, handling the backend to send emails, things like that. So I really didn't enjoy creating forms at that time.

So I would create these contact forms, surveys, questionnaires, contest forms, payment forms, all kinds of forms. And, like, at that time, like, I kind of hated it because, you know, it wasn't very challenging, like, just, you know, typing HTML to create forms or just, you know, handling the backend to send emails, things like that. So I really didn't enjoy creating forms at that time.

So I wanted to find a product that can actually do that. And I searched for it. There were some products, but they were well done. So at that time, it clicked on my mind that if I ever start my business, this is the product I could build. So at some point, I decided, okay, I can actually make this. I can really do a good job. I can make a great product. And I understood the...

So I wanted to find a product that can actually do that. And I searched for it. There were some products, but they were well done. So at that time, it clicked on my mind that if I ever start my business, this is the product I could build. So at some point, I decided, okay, I can actually make this. I can really do a good job. I can make a great product. And I understood the...

So at that time, it clicked on my mind that if I ever start my business, this is the product I could build. With that knowledge, I quit my job, I forged it, and I built JotForm.

So at that time, it clicked on my mind that if I ever start my business, this is the product I could build. With that knowledge, I quit my job, I forged it, and I built JotForm.

reason people would use that because I've been like building like hundreds of forms for our editors. So I knew like what they needed. So I actually knew the knowledge. So I think that's very important if you're an entrepreneur, like having that firsthand knowledge about like what people need, what people are asking for is really useful. So with that knowledge, I quit my job.

reason people would use that because I've been like building like hundreds of forms for our editors. So I knew like what they needed. So I actually knew the knowledge. So I think that's very important if you're an entrepreneur, like having that firsthand knowledge about like what people need, what people are asking for is really useful. So with that knowledge, I quit my job.

I forged it and I built JotForm. And the first year, I made it all free because I wanted to get as many people to use it as possible. It was all free. Even today, it's free. Until you receive 100 form submissions per month, it's all free. We have 25 million users now because we have this free version. That's the biggest marketing tool you can have.

I forged it and I built JotForm. And the first year, I made it all free because I wanted to get as many people to use it as possible. It was all free. Even today, it's free. Until you receive 100 form submissions per month, it's all free. We have 25 million users now because we have this free version. That's the biggest marketing tool you can have.

Giving something away for free is the biggest marketing tool. I love that.

Giving something away for free is the biggest marketing tool. I love that.

So I was working in this basement within these cubicles at internet.com. And I remember going up two stairs to my manager. I remember walking up those stairs and I was feeling like my legs were shaking, actually. I was like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? This was my dream job. And when I graduated college, like studying in the US, computer science was my dream.

So I was working in this basement within these cubicles at internet.com. And I remember going up two stairs to my manager. I remember walking up those stairs and I was feeling like my legs were shaking, actually. I was like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? This was my dream job. And when I graduated college, like studying in the US, computer science was my dream.

Like working on the internet sector, like being a developer was my dream. I reached all those dreams. And now why am I like just quitting this? And just like, you know, like I was asking myself.

Like working on the internet sector, like being a developer was my dream. I reached all those dreams. And now why am I like just quitting this? And just like, you know, like I was asking myself.

I think I was making like 75K, something like that. Which? Yeah, I mean... I paid money. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's great money. Yeah. But at the same time, I was kind of afraid, but I also had this kind of experience doing my own products on the site. That actually gave me the confidence because...

I think I was making like 75K, something like that. Which? Yeah, I mean... I paid money. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's great money. Yeah. But at the same time, I was kind of afraid, but I also had this kind of experience doing my own products on the site. That actually gave me the confidence because...

While I was working there full-time, even before I worked there full-time, when I was a student, I would create these open-source products. I would give them away, and I learned so much about building products. Then I started selling them on the side as well. I actually learned about things like SEO, marketing, customer support, things like that.

While I was working there full-time, even before I worked there full-time, when I was a student, I would create these open-source products. I would give them away, and I learned so much about building products. Then I started selling them on the side as well. I actually learned about things like SEO, marketing, customer support, things like that.

Because I did that for a long time, I also kind of had that confidence that I could do this. I could do this because I was actually earning as much as I earned at my full-time job when I quit my job. So I kind of had this infinite runway. Yeah, so that actually gave me confidence to be able to quit. And the other thing is, it's not just about the money. It's about learning.

Because I did that for a long time, I also kind of had that confidence that I could do this. I could do this because I was actually earning as much as I earned at my full-time job when I quit my job. So I kind of had this infinite runway. Yeah, so that actually gave me confidence to be able to quit. And the other thing is, it's not just about the money. It's about learning.

I never recommend first-time founders to just quit their jobs and just start building a product. That's very stressful. You don't want that stress while you are building your product. So what you want to do is do it on the side. Do it as a side job where you can actually learn all the skills. Because there's so many skills you need to learn to become a successful entrepreneur.

I never recommend first-time founders to just quit their jobs and just start building a product. That's very stressful. You don't want that stress while you are building your product. So what you want to do is do it on the side. Do it as a side job where you can actually learn all the skills. Because there's so many skills you need to learn to become a successful entrepreneur.

And the earlier you can start, the better. So don't just wait for like, I will quit my job one day and I will start my business. Start it now. You don't need to wait for it. Even if you work like one hour a day, the amount of learnings you will have will accumulate. And when you quit your job, you will have all the experience you need to actually do a good job.

And the earlier you can start, the better. So don't just wait for like, I will quit my job one day and I will start my business. Start it now. You don't need to wait for it. Even if you work like one hour a day, the amount of learnings you will have will accumulate. And when you quit your job, you will have all the experience you need to actually do a good job.

And you will also have the confidence. And if you can actually start building your product beforehand, That also helps so that you can focus on like growing your business as opposed to like starting from scratch.

And you will also have the confidence. And if you can actually start building your product beforehand, That also helps so that you can focus on like growing your business as opposed to like starting from scratch.

Exactly. So while I was building JotForm, I actually continued the same way I did before I quit my job. So instead of going to my full-time job, I would actually start working on jazz form. So I was living in Brooklyn at that time. I would just, uh, just like I would go to office, I would just go out and start working in, in a, in a cafe in Brooklyn Heights.

Exactly. So while I was building JotForm, I actually continued the same way I did before I quit my job. So instead of going to my full-time job, I would actually start working on jazz form. So I was living in Brooklyn at that time. I would just, uh, just like I would go to office, I would just go out and start working in, in a, in a cafe in Brooklyn Heights.

And I would walk the Brooklyn bridge to Manhattan and I would just, Spent all my day working from different cafes and start building JotForm that way. It was all fun, but at the same time, I would still work on my customs. I will still take care of my existing customers. I dedicated my time to the new product because I really believed in this product would be successful because I saw the need.

And I would walk the Brooklyn bridge to Manhattan and I would just, Spent all my day working from different cafes and start building JotForm that way. It was all fun, but at the same time, I would still work on my customs. I will still take care of my existing customers. I dedicated my time to the new product because I really believed in this product would be successful because I saw the need.

And the other thing is like the other products I built, all the side gigs, they didn't have this growth curve. Like they were kind of stuck in slow growth. So that's also another thing you learn when you do things on the side. What kind of business model doesn't work?

And the other thing is like the other products I built, all the side gigs, they didn't have this growth curve. Like they were kind of stuck in slow growth. So that's also another thing you learn when you do things on the side. What kind of business model doesn't work?

For example, selling software as a single copy, single version doesn't really scale, doesn't work because you have to find a customer for every sale, right? But when you build a subscription software, when you build a service,

For example, selling software as a single copy, single version doesn't really scale, doesn't work because you have to find a customer for every sale, right? But when you build a subscription software, when you build a service,

that people pay every month or every month, every year, that scales because if your product is good, if you don't have churn, if you have high retention rate, that it's going to snowball. It's going to start very slowly. And for example, the first year it was all free, right? 2006, I released Chatform.

that people pay every month or every month, every year, that scales because if your product is good, if you don't have churn, if you have high retention rate, that it's going to snowball. It's going to start very slowly. And for example, the first year it was all free, right? 2006, I released Chatform.

It was all free, but I was getting like I was alone at that time, like just subscription, like free users gradually. But in 2007, I worked on some paid like plan for that features. So when I released that incident, I got like 500 subscribers. And at that time, it was just $9 a month. So it was only like $4,500 per month. But it wasn't big.

It was all free, but I was getting like I was alone at that time, like just subscription, like free users gradually. But in 2007, I worked on some paid like plan for that features. So when I released that incident, I got like 500 subscribers. And at that time, it was just $9 a month. So it was only like $4,500 per month. But it wasn't big.

But because the product was good, because people were insuring, that continued to increase over the years. And so, you know, even today, like we have customers who has been with us for more than 10 years for a long time. And it's just it's very important, like because in a subscription product, in a product that's like people pay as they go along.

But because the product was good, because people were insuring, that continued to increase over the years. And so, you know, even today, like we have customers who has been with us for more than 10 years for a long time. And it's just it's very important, like because in a subscription product, in a product that's like people pay as they go along.

you have that motivation to keep them happy because it adds up. And that's a great business model. But when you have to find a customer for every sale, it just doesn't add up. And instead of making existing customers happy, you're focused on the new sales all the time. And that's just... I prefer working on the quality of my product as opposed to just...

you have that motivation to keep them happy because it adds up. And that's a great business model. But when you have to find a customer for every sale, it just doesn't add up. And instead of making existing customers happy, you're focused on the new sales all the time. And that's just... I prefer working on the quality of my product as opposed to just...

You know, making flashy, you know, trying to find new customers.

You know, making flashy, you know, trying to find new customers.

At that time, we had like 15,000 free users. And then once I released that paid version, I was able to convert like 500 to them to the paid version. I remember as soon as I announced the new paid version, half an hour later, someone from Spain, it was very early in the morning. So someone from Spain was the first customer, then someone from the UK, I believe, and then from the East Coast.

And then all these subscribers trickling in. And it was a great feeling. Even though they were just paying $9, it was an amazing feeling.

I remember one of our developers once came to me. This was a very long time ago. And he said, OK, yeah, we built the, we rewrote JotForm the third time. So are we going to work on something new now? And I said, look at these users, look at these customers, all these requests coming from these customers and how they use our product that we can never finish with this product.

We have to continue working on improving it. And what happened was over time, um, we discovered that we are not just a form builder, right? In the beginning, it was just like, can we build a product that can let people like, they can just go and build their own forms on their own easily. Like just make the easiest form builder. And, uh, That was our focus.

But over the years, we started seeing that people weren't just using it to create forms. People don't just create forms so that they can collect data. It's actually about some... workflow. It's about some task. It's about some work that needs to be done. So someone is making a request for something. Someone is registering for something. Someone is making a payment to purchase something.

There are just so many use cases for forms. and people aren't just filling the forms just to send the data because there is just like so many things happening after that there's a workflow so we started seeing our job as to helping people automate all the things they do once they get the data with the form so we start building all these additional features and products

So, for example, recently we released JotForm Sign. So it's a full-blown e-signature product, very similar to DocuSign, because we saw that people who actually had forms, they also needed e-signatures. So we also released this product called JotForm Apps, where you can actually create this mobile app from your forms. And let's say within your company, you have all these forms.

And we actually found the idea because we had the need. Like I was asking people, okay, where is this form? Like where is this HR form? Where is this like, you know, request form? Like I was asking people about like all these forms because we were using our product as much as possible. But I was always losing the URLs for the forms. Right.

so we asked like why don't we create a tool where you can actually add all these forms you can build that you can even add more stuff you can add links you can add all these things you can build a app just a no code product uh and then you can even let people install this app uh on their mobile forms or if they want to use it uh from browser they can use it online so we we came up with the idea for jot from apps and that became very successful among our users

as well. There was a need for document generation because once you fill a form, all that data can be used to create this PDF file, to create a document so you can store it as a durable document, you can send it to other people. We created this PDF designer where you can actually create your document.

We added all these tools because the goal was not just to help them create forms, but to help people with all their workflows. And because I've been involved with so much with this automation stuff, I actually wrote a book about it. Last year, I released...

the book automate your busy work and it became a wall street journal bestseller and uh and in that book i i actually talk about what i learned uh as an entrepreneur automating all the things like all the busy work because that was a big struggle for me uh what i learned automating the stuff uh what is the company what kind of uh

things we automated that actually resulted in so much more productivity and how we helped people automate their busy work with our product. So all those things that because I have been involved with automation so much, it just makes sense to write the book about it and I think it turned out to be a great book and it was released last year and it found a great audience.

like I kind of hated it because it wasn't very challenging. Like just, you know, typing HTML to create forms or just handle them backend to send emails, things like that. So I wanted to find a product that can actually do that. And I searched for it. There were some products, but they were well done.

And when you have customers, when you have so many customers, so many users, millions of users, that even if I created a new product, the amount of value you provide is multiplied by the number of people who will actually get that value, right? So if you already have 25 million users here,

Why don't you just go and provide more value to them as opposed to come up with a new idea and try to just get new users, new customers to the new idea, which is very difficult. So I kind of found a way to kind of satisfy that entrepreneurship. like that need by actually building those new additional features, products to the existing users.

And that's a great way to actually kind of provide value to your existing users. And we also recently released our enterprise version. And for the first, I believe, 12 years of JotForm, probably more than 12 years, there was no salesperson. It was all SaaS service. So people would come to JotForm and they would use the free version, upgrade to the paid version. It's great.

And I'm kind of an introvert. So it's just like I never liked sales. I'm not a salesperson. You know, and I also didn't know any salespeople. So it's just, you know, this was good and comfortable. But I remember once there was this like big company customer who, you know, who asked me like, hey, come to our office. You know, we want to buy like we want to pay you a lot and just, you know.

uh, buy just form like for the company. And I was like, you know, uh, and I was at that time, like I had some other stuff, like I didn't, you know, I, I didn't feel like, you know, taking, going, uh, taking a plane and going there like, and, uh, and then, uh, I lost that customer. That was a potential big client and I didn't do it. And we actually didn't have a product for a whole company anyway.

So it's just, we were lacking something. And that's when I came up with the idea of JotForm Enterprise. Okay, why don't we create a product for bigger companies, for companies who want to use it as a team, like for users who want to use it as a team, like who want to collaborate, who want to, you know, share data among each other, share forms among

teams uh things like that uh so and like actually learning sales like building a sales team right it it was something uh completely like something i didn't know what so uh this was uh 20 i think uh this was like 2018 so we created the just from enterprise product uh so i had my first sales

Hello, Chris. Great to be on your show. Thank you for that great introduction.

uh higher like and uh this was coming from a big sales company like you know big title like very knowledge he came in and he couldn't sell a single uh jot form to a company so it's It didn't work out. Like he kind of came from a big company. So he didn't have that startup knowledge or just started from scratch. So that didn't work out. So I hired someone else. And she also didn't work out.

She couldn't figure out a way to sell just one, but we were also improving the product. So I promoted someone from within the company that also didn't work out. So like three times I failed. Because I have no sales experience, I didn't even know what kind of salesperson would be the first sales, what would be the best person. So finally, from my network, I was introduced to the fourth person.

And this person actually had experience helping startups build sales teams. He actually did that before. He knew what to do and he knew how to sell it. So he came in and I was ready to give up. I was like, Hey, you know, just, I don't want to fire anybody else. Just, you know, why don't we just do it like a three month deal? Just let's have a quota for three months.

If you can sell JotForm Enterprise, then that's great. Like we can continue. And, you know, if you don't like it, you know, it's also, so we just started as a contractor for three months and then he came in and he started, he did an amazing job. He passed the quota and then,

he actually you know uh he also worked really well with our team so we built all the necessary uh like all necessary like features compliances because you know there are no companies like shell who use jetform and those kind of like big companies they need like compliances like they need a suck to compliance

They need, you know, some, you know, if they are healthcare company, they need HIPAA compliance. So there are all these like different kind of stuff that's needed if you are selling to enterprise. You cannot have that if you don't have like a team that can actually work on all those things. So he came in, he built the team.

So now we have like 20 salespeople and just for enterprise is now 30% of our revenues. It started from zero to 30% of our revenues in just like, you know, five years.

Yeah, I mean, you have to make those mistakes to learn from them. Sometimes there's no shortcut. Yes, yes.

I guess it's about... And before I started JotForm, I never managed anybody, right? I was an individual contributor as a developer in my previous job. But luckily, I hired my first employee the first year, second employee, second year. So literally, for the first five years, I only added like one person to the company every year. So learning management was really important for me.

But I will say, I think it's also about the time management. So how you use your time. So I remember a few years into JotForm, and we were like three, four employees at this time. And I was spending all my day. There wasn't any customer support. So I was spending all my day doing customer support. answering emails, accounting, legal, HR, ordering supplies for the office.

I was busy with the busy work. But what I really liked was working on my product. And that's what actually made the difference in the long term. And And I was really struggling. And right at this moment, something else happened. Google actually came to the ring. Google Forms was released. So now I'm not really moving forward with my product. I'm struggling. I'm spending all my day with busy work.

And now I have to compete with Google. So it was a turning point for me. I think that's when I decided, OK, I have to change something. And the solution was automation. and delegation. For example, I went to Upwork, at that time it was called Odesk. I went to Upwork and I hired these support employees, contractors from all over the world. and just handed over the support work to them.

And I started automating all the work, like all the HR work, I started automating them. You know, the way we developed our product, we streamlined and automated everything. So it's just, and like, I was spending like, maybe like five, six hours a day, and I was able to

automate many things I do and I was able to reduce that to like one hour a day I think that was the biggest one so automation and delegation really saved me and just I learned to focus on the most important thing automation And every morning, you know, I make sure that I just, you know, launch this full screen text editor, iRider on Mac and just a blank screen blinking, you know, white blinking.

uh cursor and then i start typing what's the most important thing i can work on today and just if nothing comes to my mind i will just write whatever comes to my mind and at some point like okay this is a really important thing and sometimes there are like urgent emails there and i don't check my emails i don't check uh you know the social media or anything i just make sure that i i focus on that most important thing for the for the day and

That's the most important thing.

Yeah. So I've worked for internet.com between 2000 and 2005, and I was a developer. So we had over 100 websites, and these websites were all about things like web development, about all kinds of technology stuff. And while I was working there as a developer, one of my tasks was to create these online forms for our editors.

I'm on Twitter. I'm also writing on, you know, Forbes, Fast Company, Entrepreneur. And I also have a website, my first name, last name, .com, itakingtank.com, where I have, you know, you can get like the free first chapter of my book, uh, you know, read it for free. Um, and like all my articles on my blog posts are there as well. Um, so yeah, that's where you can find me.

So I would create these contact forms, surveys, questionnaires, contest forms, payment forms, all kinds of forms. And, like, at that time, like, I kind of hated it because, you know, it wasn't very challenging, like, just, you know, typing HTML to create forms or just, you know, handling the backend to send emails, things like that. So I really didn't enjoy creating forms at that time.

So I wanted to find a product that can actually do that. And I searched for it. There were some products, but they were well done. So at that time, it clicked on my mind that if I ever start my business, this is the product I could build. So at some point, I decided, okay, I can actually make this. I can really do a good job. I can make a great product. And I understood the...

So at that time, it clicked on my mind that if I ever start my business, this is the product I could build. With that knowledge, I quit my job, I forged it, and I built JotForm.

reason people would use that because I've been like building like hundreds of forms for our editors. So I knew like what they needed. So I actually knew the knowledge. So I think that's very important if you're an entrepreneur, like having that firsthand knowledge about like what people need, what people are asking for is really useful. So with that knowledge, I quit my job.

I forged it and I built JotForm. And the first year, I made it all free because I wanted to get as many people to use it as possible. It was all free. Even today, it's free. Until you receive 100 form submissions per month, it's all free. We have 25 million users now because we have this free version. That's the biggest marketing tool you can have.

Giving something away for free is the biggest marketing tool. I love that.

So I was working in this basement within these cubicles at internet.com. And I remember going up two stairs to my manager. I remember walking up those stairs and I was feeling like my legs were shaking, actually. I was like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? This was my dream job. And when I graduated college, like studying in the US, computer science was my dream.

Like working on the internet sector, like being a developer was my dream. I reached all those dreams. And now why am I like just quitting this? And just like, you know, like I was asking myself.

I think I was making like 75K, something like that. Which? Yeah, I mean... I paid money. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's great money. Yeah. But at the same time, I was kind of afraid, but I also had this kind of experience doing my own products on the site. That actually gave me the confidence because...

While I was working there full-time, even before I worked there full-time, when I was a student, I would create these open-source products. I would give them away, and I learned so much about building products. Then I started selling them on the side as well. I actually learned about things like SEO, marketing, customer support, things like that.

Because I did that for a long time, I also kind of had that confidence that I could do this. I could do this because I was actually earning as much as I earned at my full-time job when I quit my job. So I kind of had this infinite runway. Yeah, so that actually gave me confidence to be able to quit. And the other thing is, it's not just about the money. It's about learning.

I never recommend first-time founders to just quit their jobs and just start building a product. That's very stressful. You don't want that stress while you are building your product. So what you want to do is do it on the side. Do it as a side job where you can actually learn all the skills. Because there's so many skills you need to learn to become a successful entrepreneur.

And the earlier you can start, the better. So don't just wait for like, I will quit my job one day and I will start my business. Start it now. You don't need to wait for it. Even if you work like one hour a day, the amount of learnings you will have will accumulate. And when you quit your job, you will have all the experience you need to actually do a good job.

And you will also have the confidence. And if you can actually start building your product beforehand, That also helps so that you can focus on like growing your business as opposed to like starting from scratch.

Exactly. So while I was building JotForm, I actually continued the same way I did before I quit my job. So instead of going to my full-time job, I would actually start working on jazz form. So I was living in Brooklyn at that time. I would just, uh, just like I would go to office, I would just go out and start working in, in a, in a cafe in Brooklyn Heights.

And I would walk the Brooklyn bridge to Manhattan and I would just, Spent all my day working from different cafes and start building JotForm that way. It was all fun, but at the same time, I would still work on my customs. I will still take care of my existing customers. I dedicated my time to the new product because I really believed in this product would be successful because I saw the need.

And the other thing is like the other products I built, all the side gigs, they didn't have this growth curve. Like they were kind of stuck in slow growth. So that's also another thing you learn when you do things on the side. What kind of business model doesn't work?

For example, selling software as a single copy, single version doesn't really scale, doesn't work because you have to find a customer for every sale, right? But when you build a subscription software, when you build a service,

that people pay every month or every month, every year, that scales because if your product is good, if you don't have churn, if you have high retention rate, that it's going to snowball. It's going to start very slowly. And for example, the first year it was all free, right? 2006, I released Chatform.

It was all free, but I was getting like I was alone at that time, like just subscription, like free users gradually. But in 2007, I worked on some paid like plan for that features. So when I released that incident, I got like 500 subscribers. And at that time, it was just $9 a month. So it was only like $4,500 per month. But it wasn't big.

But because the product was good, because people were insuring, that continued to increase over the years. And so, you know, even today, like we have customers who has been with us for more than 10 years for a long time. And it's just it's very important, like because in a subscription product, in a product that's like people pay as they go along.

you have that motivation to keep them happy because it adds up. And that's a great business model. But when you have to find a customer for every sale, it just doesn't add up. And instead of making existing customers happy, you're focused on the new sales all the time. And that's just... I prefer working on the quality of my product as opposed to just...

You know, making flashy, you know, trying to find new customers.