Ben Rhodes

People still disappear in large numbers.

In some parts of Mexico, it's still quite dangerous for ordinary people.

On the other hand, this is going to remind people of the worst parts of when Felipe Calderon, a prior president,

basically declared war on the cartels, and they declared war on the population.

And you saw massive violence that really began a period of large-scale disappearances, fragmentation, a lot of infighting that led to a lot of civilian deaths as well.

So I think that they are fearful of the consequence.

But I think in general, the idea of being more aggressive against organized crime is popular.

Wow.

What has been effective?

Very little.

Very little.

The reality is that what has been effective is, to an extent, a demand reduction in the United States sometimes works.

Look, you're exactly right about that.

The problem with fentanyl is that it is easy, relatively easy to synthesize in Mexico once the precursors

or even the precursors to the precursors have made their way through the very normal industrial supply chain.

I was talking to a banking official in Central America who said these organizations know exactly what they're doing.

They'll order maybe three or four percent more supply to legitimate industrial sites and then siphon off those supplies to kind of to create what to develop what they need.

They know what they're doing.

And I think that that is that's one of the great challenges.

You know, what does work is going after them like enterprises.