Bilawal Sidhu

You're never going to be able to catch me.

Wow.

Let me push on this a little bit.

So if this is true and we can end up in this sort of standoff scenario and sort of the equivalent of mutually assured destruction, you've also said that the U.S.

should embrace open source AI, even after China's deep seek showed what's possible with a fraction of the compute.

But doesn't open sourcing these models just like hand capabilities to adversaries that will accelerate their own timelines?

I want to talk about one of the recurring tensions here before we move on to the dreams, is to sort of moderate these AI systems at scale, right?

There's this weird tension in AI safety that the solution to preventing 1984

often sounds a lot like 1984.

So proof of personhood is a hot topic, moderating these systems at scale is a hot topic.

How do you view that trade-off?

In trying to prevent dystopia, let's say preventing non-state actors from using these models in undesirable ways, we might accidentally end up building the ultimate surveillance state.

So zero-knowledge proofs and other techniques like that.

Zero-knowledge proofs are the most obvious.

All right, let's change gears, shall we, to...

Dreams.

In your book Genesis, you strike a cautiously optimistic tone, which you obviously co-authored with Henry Kissinger.

When you look ahead to the future, what should we all be excited about?

Let's say we don't screw it up.

Let's say we get into this world of radical abundance.