Bobbie Johnson

She would receive money that she would then pass along to a bank in China and take a cut along the way.

What that meant was... She got drawn into this, as far as we can tell, by the fact that there was a promise of some money and it was an easy way to earn some cash. And when I spoke to security experts about this, they said it's really typical for somebody to get drawn in, you know, and that's why they choose folks who are able to stay under the radar, right?

What that meant was... She got drawn into this, as far as we can tell, by the fact that there was a promise of some money and it was an easy way to earn some cash. And when I spoke to security experts about this, they said it's really typical for somebody to get drawn in, you know, and that's why they choose folks who are able to stay under the radar, right?

What that meant was... She got drawn into this, as far as we can tell, by the fact that there was a promise of some money and it was an easy way to earn some cash. And when I spoke to security experts about this, they said it's really typical for somebody to get drawn in, you know, and that's why they choose folks who are able to stay under the radar, right?

People who have no significant profile, people who can just look ordinary and behave in pretty ordinary ways. The woman who lives around the corner from you or the guy who lives in the apartment block or whatever, just ordinary folks who can help perpetrate this scam without raising too many suspicions.

People who have no significant profile, people who can just look ordinary and behave in pretty ordinary ways. The woman who lives around the corner from you or the guy who lives in the apartment block or whatever, just ordinary folks who can help perpetrate this scam without raising too many suspicions.

People who have no significant profile, people who can just look ordinary and behave in pretty ordinary ways. The woman who lives around the corner from you or the guy who lives in the apartment block or whatever, just ordinary folks who can help perpetrate this scam without raising too many suspicions.

So typically these guys, and they really are guys, like you say, young, you know, pretty much straight out of college. They are recruited to work in these teams of 10 or 15 people. And they basically operate like a criminal gang in a sort of digital sweatshop. So they are typically sent overseas. I don't think they get many choices.

So typically these guys, and they really are guys, like you say, young, you know, pretty much straight out of college. They are recruited to work in these teams of 10 or 15 people. And they basically operate like a criminal gang in a sort of digital sweatshop. So they are typically sent overseas. I don't think they get many choices.

So typically these guys, and they really are guys, like you say, young, you know, pretty much straight out of college. They are recruited to work in these teams of 10 or 15 people. And they basically operate like a criminal gang in a sort of digital sweatshop. So they are typically sent overseas. I don't think they get many choices.

They're sent overseas to live in a nondescript apartment, and it's pretty much a 24-7 existence. They work there, they eat there, they sleep there. They are only allowed to leave in groups to make sure that nobody runs away. And they get paid by the government, and sometimes pretty well. But the regime also makes it clear that

They're sent overseas to live in a nondescript apartment, and it's pretty much a 24-7 existence. They work there, they eat there, they sleep there. They are only allowed to leave in groups to make sure that nobody runs away. And they get paid by the government, and sometimes pretty well. But the regime also makes it clear that

They're sent overseas to live in a nondescript apartment, and it's pretty much a 24-7 existence. They work there, they eat there, they sleep there. They are only allowed to leave in groups to make sure that nobody runs away. And they get paid by the government, and sometimes pretty well. But the regime also makes it clear that

your family back in South Korea is under extra surveillance to try and dissuade people from trying to escape. But these teams are typically relatively low level. North Korea does also run very high level hacking teams. And this kind of work is maybe a stepping stone towards that, but it's kind of where folks are paying their dues.

your family back in South Korea is under extra surveillance to try and dissuade people from trying to escape. But these teams are typically relatively low level. North Korea does also run very high level hacking teams. And this kind of work is maybe a stepping stone towards that, but it's kind of where folks are paying their dues.

your family back in South Korea is under extra surveillance to try and dissuade people from trying to escape. But these teams are typically relatively low level. North Korea does also run very high level hacking teams. And this kind of work is maybe a stepping stone towards that, but it's kind of where folks are paying their dues.

Yes, so Kim Jong-un is a really interesting and strange leader. I mean, we all know kind of how he's behaved when he appears in public and the kind of things that North Korea has been doing with its weapons programme and threats against other countries.

Yes, so Kim Jong-un is a really interesting and strange leader. I mean, we all know kind of how he's behaved when he appears in public and the kind of things that North Korea has been doing with its weapons programme and threats against other countries.

Yes, so Kim Jong-un is a really interesting and strange leader. I mean, we all know kind of how he's behaved when he appears in public and the kind of things that North Korea has been doing with its weapons programme and threats against other countries.

But unlike his father, who was very kind of anti-technology and pretty old school, Kim Jong-un was actually educated in Switzerland under a pseudonym. He was kind of sent to school there and he had access to Western culture and Western technology. And when he took over in the 2010s as supreme leader, he really switched things around.