Brit Prawat
Appearances
Crime Junkie
MISSING: The Mishawaka Girls
And you said this was a road she probably would have taken before. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: The Mishawaka Girls
Yeah, I can like close my eyes and picture the road you're talking about. Like it's the kind of road that you know like the back of your head if you grew up there.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: The Mishawaka Girls
And in that time, no other cases like this, like, cropped up? Like, it's just these two?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: The Mishawaka Girls
I finished The Advanced Reader last fall in like one sitting. Dare I say, Ashley, it's better than all good people here.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
And I was like, Israel Keyes told you? Of all the bad guys to believe, we're believing Israel Keyes. Israel Keyes.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
And I imagine that like one of them is like at the light and the other one's like, okay, shh, and like kind of darting around the room trying to hear the sound from like where it's coming from.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
I don't know how to pick a lock, but I'm about to find out.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
Well, and with the close-ups, it makes me think of like Peggy. I mean, she was, she had genital mutilation.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
But how would she even know? She didn't know about the tapes. How would she even have any idea of what he's capable of?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
The media frenzy surrounding my arrest has caused immeasurable harm to many people, especially my family. I've lost everything, but I cannot survive the loss of my wife and son and daughter. My death should satisfy the media's thirst for blood so that hopefully everyone else who has been affected by this case can truly begin the process of healing. I love redacted family names very much.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
I am truly sorry for hurting you so deeply. Rich Hammond.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
And not even what he did. He says, like, who has been affected by this case? Not by what he did.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
It saddens me that the Coloradan and other media flits chose to feast on Richard Hammond's tragic plight. I don't condone his alleged behavior, which was limited to the privacy of his own home. Collective gasp. That's like the craziest part to me. Yeah. But the media exploited a man and his family's vulnerability. Don't think anybody else's vulnerability was...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
Rich Hammond was a man and doctor who took time to replenish his society with quality medical care. What he allegedly did was wrong, but in the scheme of things, the hurt he caused was exaggerated after the media got its predatory claws in it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
Oh, Ashley. Words are important to me. They're important to you. They're important to our crime junkies. What he's saying here, like, I cannot make sense of it. Like, re-victimizing them by telling them they're... That's not how that works.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
I say, like, I get... As a victim, like wanting those tapes to be destroyed. If that existed of me, I wouldn't feel safe even with a tape like that locked in an evidence locker. But I'd want the choice.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
But this note is in Peggy's bag, like Matt doesn't have it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
Oh, I think we have our reason for why all of that evidence was destroyed.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
Right. But we know that Tim was exonerated in part by the DNA evidence. So like whatever happened to those partial matches?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
So we have this partial match on one of the samples. Why isn't that DNA alone enough to charge him?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
And she was like, not following protocol, mishandling evidence, not storing things correctly, like not necessarily falsifying things, but really mucking up the system.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
Well, and for me, like Matt doesn't have this history of violence, even if it was something that happened in the heat of the moment. She was mutilated with surgical precision. I know. That doesn't like you don't learn that in like a heat of the moment situation.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
So this is an 88. No one knows and won't know for years about Hammond's secret taping hobby.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
You haven't mentioned that at all. So my question is, like, was she actually seeing someone? Or was she seeing her on-again, off-again boyfriend, Matt, with someone new? She's like, oh, I, too, am newly in love. He's so hot and so rich. So tall. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
They don't ask about this dinner within like the week before she died. Did they... even ask about his alibi.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
Yeah, when I hear broken table, it is a broken table, very obviously.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
Like one of the legs is broken and now it has a piece of wood.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
Which I don't want to discredit Don's memory at all, but like we know human memory is incredibly flawed. There's a million statistics on it. I won't go through all of them, but there's one from the Innocence Project that's something like 70% of wrongful convictions come down to witness misidentification or misremembering. And that's like in the most perfect of circumstances, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
In this case, like, it's in the middle of the night. It's dark.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
I mean, you say strangely, but a couple days later, they were all in on Tim.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
Which the shoe prints, I can kind of like excuse, right? Like she has this note. She might have been there to drop it off, then pick it up. So she was in her purse. Like, okay, but the cigarette butts, like that is a stakeout amount of cigarette butts.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
It doesn't make sense. And I guess my question, too, is, was Matt a violent person? Was their relationship volatile? Because they've been on and off for a while.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
Well, and all the victims are like kind of in the same age range, 37, 39, 30. My Crime Junkie Brain goes, their last names all start with H. Hedrick Hughes Holt.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2
And we're just out here like believing serial killers. Like this is not the first time we've seen this happen. No. It always confuses me, shocks me.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
Hey, Crime Junkies, it's Britt. And have you heard? The wait is over and tickets are now officially on sale for our 2025 Crime Junkie Tour. So make sure you head to our show notes and grab tickets to a show near you. Maybe one of the shows is Fairfax, Virginia? That's our next stop today.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
So since she was found in the river, what about water in her lungs to tell them if she had drowned?
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
I mean, I'm gonna be honest. I didn't even think this was possible. I thought dental records were a sure thing.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
Oh, cool. Like, I will never understand going through all the work of building a composite sketch and then just sticking it in a folder in the back of a box never to be released.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
Okay, but without knowing how she died, there's no way to prove any of this.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
I went down a Google rabbit hole on a previous case and I read an article on healthtalk.org about how only like 25 to 30 percent of people who die by suicide leave notes.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
It says, quote, good day, JC. May I never miss the thrill of being near you. End quote.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
It's super weird. My first thought is it seems kind of hoaxy, but it also reminds me of the Cynthia Jane Anderson story that we did. Yes. Where there was like graffiti like across the street from her office. And that was super creepy.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
Now, technically, a majority of the story took place in Washington, D.C., but as you may remember, investigators found their biggest lead along the river in Fairfax. So let's go back specifically to 2021 when we first told you this story.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
So it's just him saying, I did my own independent investigation as John Walsh. As John Walsh, yeah. And this is what I've come to. That's literally all he has, right? It's strange, yeah.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
But didn't you say that the river is pretty far away from DuPont Circle? Yeah. I guess to me it seems like a really inconvenient way to rob somebody.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
Like if they tried to grab her coat, she like kind of finagled her way out of it and ran and tripped and fell in the river or something. Maybe. I don't know.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
And no one in law enforcement was like, hey, this kind of sounds familiar.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
Which is at least some of the news that the Chang family has been waiting for.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
I mean, I get what they're saying, because you don't want to put the case in a situation where you're up against double jeopardy and you you you lose and you can't try them again. And then the case is just there.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
Exactly. And again, like just keep it open. How many cases have we talked about where the case stays open and it sits in the back of a filing cabinet for God knows how long with just a unsolved mysteries tape in the box or whatever. And like eventually something happens and like no one has touched it for 20 years, but something happens and you have something finally. Why not just keep it open?
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
Just keep it open. I could just say keep it open for the next 20 minutes, but that wouldn't be very entertaining.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
And be sure to follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
So does this Starbucks have any security footage of Joyce in the store?
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
Right. And I mean, customers are really only going to stick out if there's something really distinctive about them. And right. I mean, I would also guess that they sell more than just one tea a night. So even if they did say, yeah, I sold a tea tonight, it could be one of 100. Like it doesn't really tell them much.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
Well, on top of that, like it's also evening. So maybe you want something like more chill, like a tea instead of a coffee or something is where my mind goes.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
And she could have gone in expecting to get a tea and gotten something else.
Crime Junkie
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax
Is this park on Joyce's way home? Like, does it make sense for her to have dropped it there?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
Hi Crime Junkies, Britt here, and now you guys officially know what we've been up to here with our re-releases on Thursdays. It might not technically be an heiress tour, but it is a Crime Junkie tour. We've been taking you through our upcoming 2025 Crime Junkie tour stops. I promise we'll have more deets on the dates, tickets, etc. out very, very soon.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
Right. And I mean, with his car gone, it definitely seems more likely that he went somewhere. Could he have gone out to look for one of those maps?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
Well, and Walmart would have surveillance cameras that the police can check. Right. They do have footage.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
Okay, so speaking of finances, this might be totally irrelevant, but was there any sibling infighting about Brian's mom's care or their parents' assets or anything? I mean, I know you said that Brian was really close with his family, but money can make things really messy. Was there anyone who might have wanted him out of the picture?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
What about those flooded areas? I mean, is there a chance you could have gotten caught in one of those?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
What about those mysterious, quote-unquote, interesting people Brian had told Amanda about?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
Right, but here's the thing I should add, that Amanda doubts that police thoroughly analyzed the electronics.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
Wait, we are weeks into this investigation and police still haven't talked to one of the last people Brian spoke with?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
Okay, but... Based on everything you just said, there was no evidence of an affair.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
And none of them thought it was strange that the car was just sitting there for more than a month?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
OK, so there was probably no one in the passenger seat or they would have had to move that stuff to sit.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
Uh, note to self, if I ever want to disappear, fly out of ATL.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
I just assume my name appears on a list when I walk into an airport, right?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
Hang on. I'm thrilled everything was still there, but I have to ask why? Why didn't Detective Johnson collect it? Why are they just taking this stuff now?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
And you guys, we cannot wait to see you in real life. But in the meantime, we've still got more stops to go. And what's been so great about these re-releases is that not only have we been able to have a little fun with you guys on Thursdays, but most importantly, it's given us the opportunity to re-highlight cases that still need answers. Answers that one of you may have.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
I mean, it sounds like there's some renewed dedication to the case, at least.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
But if something did happen to Brian in the boathouse and then his body was moved somewhere else, wouldn't that kind of point to him knowing his killer? I mean, why would a stranger be at his parents' house?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
They just ignored the bolo? I mean, how are we just now finding out about this?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
He didn't really think that, though, did he, after all that time?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
It does make it easier to seem like everything is possible. Anything is possible.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
So today, we're headed back to Atlanta, Georgia in hopes that someone out there can finally give this family the closure that every loved one deserves.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
None of that is reassuring. Are the medications essential? No.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
I know we've mentioned this before. I'm going to say it again loud and clear for the folks in the back in case anyone listening ever finds himself in this situation. Law enforcement agencies are not required to wait to take a missing persons report, even if that person is an adult. Mm hmm. Totally. File that report. Make them do it.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
And especially in this case, I mean, you would think that Brian's medical conditions would, I don't know, raise the level of concern enough to get it filed right away, at least without any pushback. That was kind of my thought, too.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
OK, but what part of being mad, upset in an argument with your partner is like results in not wanting to take your medication or change your clothes? None of that adds up.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
Well, and even if Brian wanted to break up with Jeff, why would he ditch his entire family too? It doesn't make sense. Yeah. If anything, it sounds like he would turn to them if he was leaving Jeff.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
Yes, and we truly could not do it without each and every one of you tuning in every single week.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta
But how do they know Brian's the one who made the payment? Is there footage of him there?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Hey, Crime Junkies, it's Britt, and we're almost through our upcoming Crime Junkie Tour route, which means we are that much closer to getting to see you in person. 2025 is coming up in no time, and we can't wait to deep dive into a case with you all. But until then, you know the drill, we want to reshare a story from our next stop.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
That's so frustrating. I feel like everyone is just talking around this same group of guys, but no one can actually definitively say, yes, I was there, this is who started the fire. Have they actually talked to any of this group yet?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Oh, so they all just conveniently peaced out at the exact same time?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
I mean, how many accounts said, like, this was going on, these guys were messing with him, like, anytime they were around.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But everybody knows that Donnie always hangs around with these other three guys. Exactly. So that's why he's kind of like being lumped in with them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
No, of course he wasn't. I mean, I know. OK, so if he wasn't there, then where did he get this information? If you tell me he heard it from a friend, I might scream into this mic.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Yeah, and if they were all there and knew that he was on fire but decided not to turn around and help, then they're all technically involved with Aaron's death and could actually be held accountable in some way.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Yeah. So basically, voice stress tests definitely are not all that accurate. I actually found this one study by the National Institute of Justice, and it shows that even the most popular programs used to conduct those tests like at that time are really no better than like flipping a coin when it comes to getting an accurate definition of like truth or lies.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Can you even imagine being told, hey, there's a guy on fire and just not caring or checking it out or anything?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Wait, so he's saying that he wasn't even there when the fire was started?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Okay, to be clear, this could just be another situation where information or supposed details about this crime has been passed down from one friend to another. Is there anyone else who can verify the story, like that friend, for instance?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And today, we're headed back to Phoenix, Arizona, where in January 2023, Ashley told you how an innocent man's life was senselessly ripped away from him. Police are certain there are individuals who know who is responsible, but even today, justice remains to be seen.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
He doesn't know how to get in touch with his friend?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Okay, let me make sure I remember his story. He's the one who originally placed Nate, Charlie, and two other unnamed guys at the scene with Aaron. And he thinks that maybe Nate's brother Max might have joined them later in the evening, but he wasn't like 100% sure. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
I mean, someone was on fire and there was a gas can. Those feel really connected like you'd remember it the first time. And even if the accelerants at the scene were evaporated or washed away, like you said earlier, I don't know how this wasn't in his original version of events. Like a red gas can, that's going to stick out in your mind.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But we have a whole extra person and a gas can in his story.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
OK, I'm going to be honest. I've never heard of something or I don't know, someone being on fire and being like, oh, yeah, this is clearly just a hilarious prank being played on me. What's with these people?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Right, to kind of like throw them off or whatever. Right. So what about Nate and Charlie? Were they ever able to track those two down? Oh, yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And be sure to follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Collecting everything they can is great, but if it got damaged by water or flame extinguishers or even just the fire itself, I mean, is it even going to be useful?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Ugh, I can totally picture this kind of guy, like, hanging out in, like, 7-Eleven parking lots with teenagers, even though they're, like, definitely in their 20s.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And Max isn't one of the two guys that he doesn't know, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Yeah, it definitely sounds like he thinks that they're capable, but maybe that they didn't mean to do this. Is there a chance that they just took things too far and this was actually an accident? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Yeah. Yeah. In conversation with the kids constantly, the focus of everlasting salvation and being together forever without pain and suffering is our ultimate goal and want. In addition, this family lives in daily constant fear of Robert. Okay, first of all, no, your children didn't, like, make this family decision with you. That's bulls**t.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Yeah, please. We have prayed and we have meditated to this decision. Please continue to pray for our salvation and please be in peace that we are no longer suffering. We are sorry for the anguish and sorrow this has caused you, but it was a decision we made as a family. Now we will be together forever without pain and suffering, and we will watch over each other and protect all of you.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
We love you all. I mean, great, we broke it down, but I feel like there's still so much to process in this letter, and I just have more and more questions. I think... The glaring thing out of all of this, though, is Tony is definitely supposed to be dead, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
I'm sorry. One thing led to another. How the hell does someone go from starting a spiritual journey to familicide?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
And maybe that was part of their... Like, they had to be in the same room to be together in the next life?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Okay. I find it a bit... Odd how he successfully sent five other souls, yes, I'm counting the dog, to the afterlife as planned, no issues, but he couldn't seem to send himself. I mean, did he have stab wounds in his stomach? Nope. Shocker.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
I'm sorry if this sounds cold or callous or whatever, but in my opinion, if he really believed the end of the world was coming and they needed to get to the other side as a family so they all had to die together... I just am having a hard time believing that he would have, quote-unquote, failed so many times for weeks and weeks, you know?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
So does he ever explain anything about that end-of-world prophecy from the note? No.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
I mean, even if they're not super social. Well, and it doesn't, like, they weren't even proselytizing. Like, they weren't, like, trying to get other people to join them. What a fancy word. Oh, my God.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Yeah, they weren't, like, trying to, like, convince everyone else that they were right. This was, like, their personal convictions, and that was it, and they didn't even share it. Right.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Okay, but how much of all that communication was actually just Tony? Because according to him, everyone else was killed sometime before Christmas. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
So is that because they haven't really pinpointed when the family died or because even if they were alive, Tony was still like the main communicator? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Which, honestly, is neither here nor there, like, to me. Sure, maybe they knew they weren't going to be around for Christmas, but they also could have just missed the memo to go all out and dress festive.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Maybe I just missed it, but did Tony mention drugging them with the Benadryl in his statement?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Okay, that doesn't make any sense. Of everything he could have lied about, like, literally, he could have lied about who stabbed them, but no, he lied about when they were stabbed? Yeah, it's super weird, right? Well, and why would he stab them after they'd already died?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
He said they started planning the murders in July or even June. It only took them three months to decide they should kill their whole family?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Which even if this happened, huge if, of course a little kid is going to say that. That doesn't mean they're asking to be murdered by their father. I mean, this is some gross levels of manipulation here. I know, I know.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
But what's the timeline here? Is this the next day or now he's saying it all happened at the same time? So this is what I was saying.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
So are they making the connection that this is the same guy they've been checking in on?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
How is his version of events so different from what the physical evidence is clearly saying?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
So I'm guessing nothing really happened at that first check, though.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Okay, again, not to sound like I'm rooting for him to die, but dude, you were in that house with their bodies for weeks. Yeah, like, what's three days?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Well, and, like, yes, he's making all these trips, but he would have had to leave to get the pellet guns at some point, too. I mean, I don't think DoorDash delivers those. Right. So you're not just, like, at home in some state of psychosis. You're getting f***ed in Starbucks. Right.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
At this point, are investigators just, you know, letting him talk, getting as much out of him as possible, or are they calling him out on his BS?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Listen, I know we're not professionals, but money is usually brought up in a lot of the cases we've seen like this. So to me, it seems like it's got to play at least some sort of contributing factor here in my opinion.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Not guilty by reason of insanity or just straight up not guilty and stop? Not guilty and stop. He didn't commit the murders, according to him now. Cool, but he confessed in a note to the police twice.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
But that confession of his was pretty detailed. I should say confessions of his were detailed.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Wait, in this new version, was he still planning on killing his family? Like, why is he looking for the necklace at the condo when he fell asleep? Okay, yeah, so that's a little confusing, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
I'm sorry, the world's going to end and no one has been able to reach them. Ashley, we did not grow up in basically a cult to not call this like the red flag of red flags.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Well, yeah, I'm not even in this family and it's pissing me off. But... Is that why the letter said they were scared of him? I don't understand.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
27 pages seems like a lot of pages for someone who didn't remember anything. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Okay, this first part says, I write to you in response to the letters I received from you to correct all inaccuracies created and generated by the creative writing machine, press, to sell papers and the sheriff's department.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
who went to score a big win after screwing up a prior murder case that the governor of Florida had to intervene and move it out of this district to respond to your absurd allegations in your last letter and to offer you forgiveness. What is even happening?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Okay, and just to be clear, this doesn't have anything to do with either of their cases, right? He's just saying the Sheriff's Department needs a win because of a screw-up somewhere else, right? Yep. Okay, continuing on. First of all, I am 10,000% innocent of all these preposterous charges, both on this state case and on the proposed Medicaid fraud case. So, spoiler alert, we have the letter.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Okay, the next section says, So he's sticking with his story that all of this was her fault, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
So he's just blaming all his problems on her and basically how loyal he was to her and how much he loved her.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
I entered the house to find the melted dessert and remnants on plates on the table. It was some sort of fruit pudding pie in a graham cracker crust. It looked very good, as all of my wife's desserts were, but smelled horrible. Turns out, it was a Benadryl pudding pie.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Okay, this next section is a long one. Long story short, she gave them the Benadryl slash Tylenol PM pie, separated them, woke up at 11.30, stabbed, and then suffocated each one. At the news of this, I ran to the bathroom and puked. I was weak. She continued to tell me what happened and then wanted to pray slash meditate together. I needed to see my kids. When I went in, I was horrified.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
It was peaceful, no signs of struggle as she said, but I couldn't believe her that there wasn't a struggle." I got a warm washcloth and wiped each of their faces, held them, cried and worked to make them look more comfortable by closing their mouths, eyes and loosening their nasal passages. It was normal for me to wash their faces when they weren't well.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Throughout that whole time, Meg kept checking on me, very calmly asking if I was okay while drinking something. Turns out, the Benadryl she'd been stockpiling for a while. I would respond to her, no, you murdered our children. And she would respond, relax and believe in what I saw. I released their souls. Okay, if he's in his right mind during all this, why isn't he calling the police?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Because he says Megan hid their phones. Okay, fine.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Okay, this is winter. It's December. It's snowbird time. Snowbirds are supposed to be in Florida. Yeah, for sure. Well, and also, you can't go to the nearest gas station, try to flag down a car. That's what I'm saying. I mean, there are people you can go to for help. Plus, what the f***? He's even reverting to the whole suffocation thing when the autopsy had already shown...
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Mm-hmm. Upon going back into the bedroom, I heard a horrific sound of something rubbing a latex balloon. She had stabbed herself the first time. I ran to her bedside and she said, please don't leave me alone to die as I didn't leave the kids to die alone. When I pulled this knife, it will go quick. I can feel it happening now.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Before I could react, the knife was pulled and thrown on the bed someplace. There was blood, a lot of blood. I begged her to let me call. I would take all responsibility as I felt it was all my fault. After a while, nothing happened.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
She had more of her drink and asked me to leave her for a few minutes as I was stressing her out with all my pleading of asking her to go for help, where phones were, etc.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Which is gross, but can we pause for a second? Isn't Megan supposed to be super sick? Like, practically immobile, you said. That's what he said. But yeah. How is she able to stab herself, get up, walk around, stab herself again, all while apparently chugging Benadryl? I mean, honestly, how would she supposedly be able to kill all the kids if she was so weak?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Okay, but now they know he's home. I mean, they just saw him hobbling around.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
They're a totally normal family. There's nothing off. It's not adding up. Oh, my God. And just to be clear, he's still sticking to this stabbing thing, even though the ME has said that it happened after. I guess. Did first responders happen to see a lot of blood at the scene?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Because the only thing I can come up with that would begin to make sense to sticking with the story is to explain a really bloody scene. But if you're going to change your story to change it, match the facts, I don't know. I don't understand any of it.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Right. And while we're on this topic, was there any forensic evidence that backs up, I mean, any of his story or gives us a clearer picture of anything?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
So, okay, what you're telling me is both the prosecution and the defense are basically going to go to trial with just Tony's numerous conflicting confessions?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Which I kind of get. They're separate cases. But are they thinking they're not at all connected? I am not sure.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast. We'll be back next week with another episode.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
I don't even want to ask, but how did they miss her the first time?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Like snacks that have been sitting out for days and days or even unopened, untouched. Or has Tony been eating and drinking in that room this whole time?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
I mean, can I? Sure. Do I want to? TBD. All of this episode. Yeah. Here we go. As 2019 comes to a close and 2020 commencing, we as a family decided this course of action of salvation for several reasons. We are seeing the end-of-world prophecy coming true and choose not to have our families suffer and be subjected to foreseen tortures, cataclysmic demise, and continued agony.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
We will no longer be separated. Toni will be Willis always and forever now. Megan will no longer be subjected to constant daily pain, torture of living and breathing from her progressive liver and Lyme disease complications. We believe we made the right decision for our family to gain salvation and togetherness forever.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
The continued increasing depression as a result of Al Gula's suicide anniversary, coupled with the agony of the miscarriage of Connor Michael recently and Avery eight years ago, has just fueled the overall depression our whole family suffers on a daily basis.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
In conversation with the kids constantly, the focus of everlasting salvation and being together forever without pain and suffering is our ultimate goal and want. In addition, this family lives in daily, constant fear of Robert. We are very proud of what we contributed to this world, what our children have contributed, and the love we share for each other.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Our one final wish is that we are kept together. Please distribute our ashes along with our fur baby Breezy in either the ocean or at Harkness so we may be with Dad in eternal rest. We have prayed and we have meditated to this decision. Please continue to pray for our salvation and please be in peace that we are no longer suffering.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
We are sorry for the anguish and sorrow this has caused you, but it was a decision we made as a family. Now we will be together forever without pain and suffering, and we will watch over and protect all of you. We love you all. So, yeah. I have so many questions. Like, they're listing people we don't even know. Like, Robert, why are they afraid of him? And who is Al Gula?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Okay, yeah, I caught that right away. Any mention of a prophecy about the end of the world just screams doomsday cult to me.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Todt Family from Orlando
Sure. We will no longer be separated. Tony will be Willis always and forever now. Megan will no longer be subjected to constant daily pain, torture of living and breathing from her progressive liver and Lyme disease complications. Okay, so I don't get that part at all, like the part about Tony, because it's kind of written like Tony's already dead, and spoiler alert, dude's still here.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Wait, if he's trying to make a call out, I guess I don't understand how he's overhearing this conversation. So...
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, but, like, how did the public work around it? Like, I can't imagine that they could just show up and be like, we're going to dig here. Oh, you're absolutely right.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Dear Mom and Dad, We are safe. There's no need to worry about us. Oh, we really missed you in the past two years. At the beach on that day, we were walking to the bus stop when a man in a car stopped us and asked us if we wanted a ride. I said that we did, and that is how it all started. The man would not let us write before.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
He is letting us write tonight because he saw the story in the Herald tonight and felt sorry for you both. He watched us a lot for about six weeks, and then he did not watch us so much. Arna and I talk about you often, but Grant does not remember you at all after more than two years. We have been well-fed all the time. I, as well as Arna and Grant, hope that you are both well.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
The man said to me just now that he will willingly let us go if you come over to Victoria to get us as long as you do not call the police. He said that if you do, the deal is off. You have to pick us up in front of the Dandenong Post Office at 10 minutes to 9 o'clock next Monday, the 26th of February." This is Jane, who is writing.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, but this guy has been kind of embarrassed before in front of his colleagues by believing something that ended up being nothing. What makes him think this one is like a for sure real deal? So here's the thing.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
This story is bananas, but I'm getting super lost. What's the connection to the Beaumonts again?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay. And if he was responsible, like even the way the boys' bodies were found, but the kids weren't? doesn't really add up.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
We have heard some dark stories about people who have dark, twisted fantasies and turn-ons. What? But honestly, I did not see this one coming. It's weird, right? What? Satin? Satin. And like, he can't see it. He can't hear it rustle. Can't be around it. He can't go to weddings, obviously. Like, I'm so floored by this entire thing. But as weird as it is, because it is. Totally.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, but didn't Hayden say that he saw the Beaumont kids with Harry?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Right. Like maybe they're hiding out somewhere because maybe their parents are angry with them because they didn't come home on time. Right.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Oh, my God. That is right. Eerie. Like, obviously, he's older than the sketch, but he would be.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Honestly, the eeriest thing for me is the hairline is... Yeah.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And like the ear shapes, the nose shape. This is creepy. We've talked about it a lot where sketches look really, really, really similar to suspects. But honestly, I think this is the most...
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, that's so shady, though. Like, if you just bought it or bought it in general and it was just hanging around your house, like, why all of a sudden would you just pitch it? Mm-hmm. I mean, that's exactly what I thought, too.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
I feel like the families of these kids have just seen so much like hope that's dashed and then hope that's dashed. Like, do they have any family members that are still around? Like their parents? Like this is 50 years out.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But let's take a moment to appreciate how far we've come as podcasters. Please be nice, like truly be kind.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, but that doesn't clear Harry. Like, they've only dug a couple of places on his property.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So wait, are the police involved in this or is this being run through like another government agency? Like you said, he was from Parliament.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Yeah, especially since again, like this really is like the last opportunity for a search, especially of this size, like three different places. That's like an extensive search.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
I mean, not to go like too dark, too fast, but was kidnapping an option at this point? Like, or are police really just trying to find them in some sort of freak accident on the beach?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, but if someone snatched them, like, someone had to have seen it. You said it was one of the busiest days on the beach, right? Yeah, I mean, it was, yeah, super packed. Even if they didn't realize right away that it was a kidnapping, something would have been off. These three kids just randomly go off with a stranger. Someone would have had to have witnessed something.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, so it means a pretty normal looking guy. He's got kind of a longish face, a big forehead. I guess my next question is, if they saw him well enough to describe him for the sketch, like, what else did the witness like pick up on? Like, how was he acting with the kids? What was his demeanor? How are the kids with him? Stuff like that. So it's interesting.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So the police are thinking maybe the strange man gave them this one-pound note? Exactly.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, but why would he steal less money and give them more back?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Thank you. Hi, Crime Junkies. Britt here. And Happy New Year. Can you believe it's 2025? The perfect time for some New Year resolutions. Maybe you're planning on getting back in the gym, picking up a new hobby, or maybe you're trying to come to our Crime Junkie Life Rule Number 10 live tour. I promise the last one is so easy to stick to.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And this friend only reported this when the police questioned him?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
I mean, he had to have believed him enough to not go give him gas, but... The thing that sticks out to me the most is Eric already had a burner phone. I mean, spoiler alert, that backfired, but having that, plus, like, way earlier asking this friend to, like, do a favor for him, like, it feels like there's some kind of plan here, right? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
But weren't his wife and daughters, like, cleaning up the crime scene?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
I was going to say, like, your son brings the lifeless body of a girl down from his room and you're like, sure, I'll help you load this up in the car and then clean off the driveway and then head to church. It's like unhinged. Yeah. Yeah. And like, did Eric ever say how Leslie died?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
OK, let's say Eric is telling the truth and she overdosed. Like, wouldn't toxicology prove that? There's that. And then why wouldn't you just call 911? Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So, I mean, the million dollar question is, where is Eric now?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And like, I know like you can't make sentences or charges on this, but I can't get over the fact that they knew Leslie. She's someone that they've known and knew for years.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Which would be like the baseline sentences for a murder in the U.S.,
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
I feel like there's still so much we just don't know about this. Like, why did all this happen?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And if you haven't gotten your tickets yet, don't worry, there's still some left. But hurry, they are going so, so quick. We will have a direct link in our show notes. Which brings me to why I'm here today. This Thursday, we're headed to our last tour stop, Las Vegas. And for the special occasion, we're unlocking an episode from the Crime Junkie Fan Club vault.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So she knew this guy. He wasn't just some like rando from Instagram.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Yeah, that's almost exactly what Leslie's mom asks. But the Ibarra family says they don't know where Leslie is, so Leslie's family has no choice but to leave and just to start looking for answers themselves.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
We hope you guys have enjoyed these re-releases as much as we have. We've loved being in your ears each Thursday, re-highlighting cases from all around the country. And we can't wait to see you all in person so, so soon.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And 440 is the last text to her sister, right? Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So really, they're only looking at the distance he could travel within the 10 minutes from the gas station.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So the time and the radius gets even smaller. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Hi Crime Junkies, Britt here, and today we're hitting our last stop on the East Coast, Boston, Massachusetts. Boston is a city known for many things, but as Crime Junkies know that back in 1996, it was the newly found home to an au pair from Sweden that was looking to explore her dreams in the United States. She was supposed to have her whole life ahead of her, but instead never got the chance.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I mean, OK, here's the thing. We're looking at I'm looking at it in the light of like. 2017, where my dogs match each other and occasionally coordinate with me and my husband. So I'm like, my filter is off.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
So very far away to just be hanging out walking your dog.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
She could be in the trunk. What kind of car was it? I have questions.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
No social media, no mutual friends, no crossover, nothing. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Pictures of her in the background in pictures from other people at the club. I mean, we've all seen you.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
OK. OK. Wait. I know this is a while back in the story, but didn't she date a cop or something?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I just pulled it up and I see the picture and it's super spooky. Also, two before it, there's a picture with a white dog wearing sunglasses, which I feel like a Superman dog would also wear. But no, it's a really creepy picture.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
It almost looks like maybe a map or like a fairy tale book. I can't quite tell, honestly. What are your thoughts on it?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Karina Homer? Oh, it doesn't sound familiar. I'm super excited. Britt, you sound a little bit rough today. I am sick, so excuse me if I sound kind of congested and scratchy-throated, because that is exactly what I am, so...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
It's still someone close to her, close to her family, close to her kids.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Yeah. Yeah, it's going to be hard to forget some of those pictures, honestly.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Well, and you also, at least to me, I also have to question the idea of maybe it's not getting a second or closer look because she wasn't a citizen or a U.S. national. You know, like what would our country be implicated in internationally? True. In the event that like it was potentially someone higher up in Boston, like a police officer in Boston.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Yeah. Wow. That was a really good story. I feel like I'm the little kid in The Princess Bride. Yeah. getting a story told to him while I'm sick. Yeah. I mean, it didn't make me feel better at all. And I have so many questions, but you did a really good job. So.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And be sure to check out our website, Crime Junkie Podcast dot com.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
We all still had so many questions back in 2018 when we first told you the story, and I wish we had more answers today. But we're resharing this case as a reminder to all you crime junkies, if you have a secret, for the love of God, tell someone, anyone, because you never know what might happen next.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I thought you said I was going to enjoy this story and it was going to make me feel better. I feel worse now.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I would also stop and talk to this man for the record.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
So you're saying that Crime Stoppers just takes the tips and helps make arrests?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Or like path of least resistance, for lack of better terms.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Okay, so Lakewood wasn't connected, I get it. But, I mean, surely they see this connection, right? Like, to the case of the couple, to the flight attendant who took place, like, that was all just like a week before.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Okay, but this is the first time the public is even hearing about this, quote, pre-dawn hammer attack last month, right? Yes.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
For what? I mean, my mind immediately goes to DNA, but we're talking Lubbock in 84.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Why? What on earth could be more important than this? It's not like this case is cold. It's not even a week out yet.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Okay, so basically Walker suspected this guy was an unsophisticated criminal, especially when looking at the few items that were taken from the victims, which you mentioned in all the cases is nothing big or super valuable was ever removed from any of the houses. Just a little bit of jewelry from Patricia. And then all the cases had this purse that was dumped out.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
And that's because Walker thinks this guy doesn't really know how to get rid of big stuff. Like he doesn't know how to lift like a stereo or TV and sell it to someone else. Just like very easy, small person to person transactions.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
And they think this guy probably has some sort of criminal history, but it's probably pretty petty, like maybe trespassing and maybe even some of his earlier crimes weren't even reported.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
And he also thinks it's plausible that maybe he broke in places before and got caught, and that's when he started carrying the hammer around, kind of to use as a weapon if he did get caught while breaking in somewhere.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
And as far as the guy's background, Walker thinks there might have been some form of violence in his own past, and he probably has issues with drugs and or alcohol now, and is probably kind of a loner. Now, in each case, there were no signs of forced entry. And Walker doesn't think this is because the attacker is like super skilled or anything.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
He thinks he was really just targeting the easiest houses, like the ones with open garage doors or even unlocked doors. This quote I found really interesting. He said, quote, End quote. So, duh, Ron was like, you guys need to be looking for evidence not just at the Bennett home or the homes where the other attacks happened, but dust prints on all the doors in the neighborhoods, too.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Like, the ones that were locked, you might get lucky. Yeah. And overall, Walker basically concludes that what drives this guy is rage, and he's going to keep going until he's stopped.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
I would say the one time I mentioned to you that a kid had said something that upset Eli at school, you're like, OK, who is he?
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Where can I find them? The child is going to have to have a talk with me. Like, I am raging at this point. This is unacceptable, people.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Wait, didn't you say that at some point that all the other attacks described a black man as the attacker? Okay, so, yes.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
I'm honestly shocked to find that there were no hits. I mean, you said earlier they didn't think this was a first time crime, like this guy had to have done this before.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Yeah, Ashley, I'm going to be honest. This was really, really cool the first like two or three times we saw this happen.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Yeah, like the only thing that's kind of interesting specifically about this one is they do do an age progression on it. So like what he would have looked like at the time versus what he may look like now. But like you said, pretty generic white guy.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Right, he's like everyone and no one at the same time. Yeah. So you have enough for phenotyping, which means I assume they can do genealogy from that, right?
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
But it's also like not like a vial of sample that you're taking out that like cannot be. Yeah, what's the harm in leaving it in? Yeah, like my mind is blown here and I have a lot of questions, but maybe not for this episode.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Okay, but at this point, Kingman, Arizona, should have had that original report from Aurora, Colorado, looking for...
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
that APB yeah like looking for similar MOs similar crimes cases anything like that like yeah obviously this isn't a hammer it's a rock but it's someone breaking in and bashing someone's head in yeah in the middle of the night feels pretty similar to me yes and this is where again like was no one reading the cork board or I just like I don't know right like whose inbox has this been sitting in for 11 days yeah and they just haven't read it yet
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Just like what the FBI profiler predicted. Like, that's exactly what they said was going to happen.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Ashley, you didn't tell me I was going to have to puke during this episode. I'm sorry. You need to give me a warning.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Okay, I guess I'm struggling to, like, wrap my head around something. Like, how could he just be sitting there this whole time and, like, there was never any sort of CODIS connection or CODIS hit? Like, obviously there was, like, that weird anomaly with Patricia's sample, whatever. But aren't there laws that felons have to have their DNA tested and, like, submitted into a profile and a system?
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Okay, when you were going to explain this, I fully were expecting you to say like, it took so long because testing took so long because we see that happen so often. But they just weren't testing. You're just telling me that they just weren't doing it.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
And be sure to follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
But could they tell which one was the killer's main motive?
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
So the letter said, quote, Pat was a gentle, sincere woman with soft brown eyes and a slender figure. She knew how hard life could be and why it was important to take the time to laugh, fast to respond to her friend's needs. Perhaps the person who took her life didn't know all of this about her, but I would like him to.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
He should realize that no matter what he was feeling when he took Pat's last breath of life, he took something from all of us who loved her. He took her special qualities that touched our lives." That's honestly really beautiful and sweet.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
As if you didn't need to be reminded that this happened in 1984. Truly.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
i don't have any proof of that because again that story was never picked up by the media like at all which seems so bizarre to me it seems like this is exactly the kind of story that you'd want to go out to the community like does anybody know anything did you see anything oh and also this is happening i don't know maybe make sure your garage doors are shut lock your doors stuff like that
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
I mean, this dude is clearly escalating and within like a matter of days.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Okay, so zero excuses for me on why they didn't make these cases public in Aurora, but I'm not sure it would have prevented anything from happening to Patricia, you know? Like, the news of these attacks wouldn't have ever made it to her, especially in 1984.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
And there's like a little notification system or something. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
CAPTURED: Hammer Killer in Denver
Yeah, I was just kind of thinking about this temp job I used to have as a receptionist where I had to sort mail for this huge corporation and trying to figure out like even what to do with a simple envelope sometimes was incredibly messy and confusing. And that was just like 10 years ago. This is how long ago? Like this isn't still happening. This is the 80s, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York
Hi, crime junkies, it's Britt, and we are heading back to the Big Apple, New York City, and we can't wait to get back here in person soon. There's truly nothing like walking the streets of Times Square, seeing the Statue of Liberty, or crossing the Brooklyn Bridge. But as we all know, danger likes to hide in beautiful places, including the concrete jungle.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York
Okay, but, like, why? Like, is he selling this stuff? Is he, like, does he need it for money?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York
I'm sorry, no. There is no way a power player like that is going to get so personally involved and, like, risk their own career for a defendant in, like, this crazy high-profile murder case just because their faith told them to. Like...
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York
Okay, so he's popular and he's free again. But like everyone in his friend group knew that he was a thief, right? Yeah, totally. I guess I'm kind of surprised that they weren't more disillusioned with him like earlier on. And I'm shocked that he didn't get caught before this.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York
The lengths these people are willing to go to to shield Robert from his responsibility, it honestly just blows my mind. Like, it sounds like the prosecution is up against this crazy huge wall. Like, not only are they trying to build their case, but they have to fight all of this at the same time. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York
So today, we're going back to October 2019, when we first told you the story of how in 1986, danger found its way to Central Park.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York
Did the jury see the same pictures we did? Like, the horrific bruises on Jennifer's neck and how badly she'd been beaten? Like... All that, and they can't agree on intent. Like, how do you not see that?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York
Oh my god, no. Like, does the media at least leave them alone now?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York
And be sure to follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York
Wait, where are these kids' parents? You're telling me that they just leave their teenagers for days at a time by themselves. Yes.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York
Again, we grew up in a completely different world, so I might just be, like, totally oblivious to this. But this doesn't feel like normal high school partying. No. Like, the kinds of substance you're talking about, they're, like, some really hard drugs. And the amount that these kids are partying, I feel like there could be, like, some legit substance issues. Oh, absolutely.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York
But I got to say, I'm kind of with the police on this one. I'm having a hard time buying the story that he like couldn't get away. Was Jennifer like super tall or strong? Like, I guess I'm wondering, how was she able to overpower him? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
I thought the bite marks already matched Calvin's mold.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
Yeah, like, I guess how can it match both other than, like, they're all Ts?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
Let us find this guy guilty that these guys that you're investigating say are like. Well, the guy who the guy who's told her to stop is the guy she's investigating.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
Which... is great, but it wasn't all hearsay. I mean, like, how does he explain, like, the insurance policy he had on Gayle?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
Does he list himself as the common law husband of all his employees, too, though?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
Right. It's not incomprehensible that no one wants to touch his case with a 15-foot pole.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
Have any of the families mentioned anything about this?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
Especially if he's, like, trying to muscle money out of people. Right, right, right. Like, kind of puff himself up.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
Which makes a $3,000 drug debt seem a little far-fetched. Exactly.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
what are they afraid of when it comes to, like, recanting?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
Okay, could have used you guys talking, speaking up, anything years ago.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
Okay. It says, quote, one said the photos were of such poor quality that he refused to compare them against the molds. A second wrote that the marks were more likely than not made by insects or artifacts. If the purpose of the exercise, he continued, was to match these marks to a set of teeth, it borders on the unbelievable.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
A third thought that some contusions on one body were probable human bite marks, but he couldn't match any of the molds to them. Two others did match a mark to one of the molds, but it was not Spence's. It belonged to a housewife from Phillipsburg, Kansas.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
Wait, I thought this dude just had like a random job as a corrections officer. Like, how is he getting them breaks and stuff?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
Wait, wait, is that just the end of the story, the end of this episode? I was expecting more fight, more change?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
Are you like protecting evidence within it? Or protecting the fact that there's not evidence in it?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
Could the motive be sexual? I mean, you mentioned that she was naked, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
There are no coincidences in criminal investigations.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 2
But why kill her if the letter is already out there?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Are they like totally estranged by this point? Are they still trying to talk to him, convince him to like tell them what happened?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Okay, I feel like this is one of your favorite little reminders. Years change things. Relationships.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Yeah, time makes people maybe change their mind about talking.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Honestly, this whole thing seems kind of premeditated. Like, you're going to a shed to pick up a barrel and you end up putting your wife's body in the barrel after you kill her?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Sometimes stuff happens fast, and you've got to move, like, just as quickly. I can totally see her popping out, leaving everything to take care of whatever emergency farm thing happened somewhere else.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
But the prosecution asked for a body or a witness. And now they have a witness.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Right, like even with this witness, it's still a no body case.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
pathologists from the University of Illinois? You know, every day in this job, I learn something new.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So unless someone else just happened to be randomly burning a barrel next to this same side of this tree in the summer of 81.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Okay, if I were cops suspecting a guy of murder, top of my to-do list after he skirts an indictment isn't return gun to rightful owner. Like- Especially when that man is the person who possibly just got out of a murder charge. I know. And I don't know if they have to because there was no indictment. In my mind, I've seen people hold evidence forever. Yeah, like it's still evidence.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Does this little jailbreak attempt plot twist result in like additional charges for Fred now?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
I'm sorry, Ashley. I feel like I need to see like a picture of Fred or something. Like what kind of power does he have over these women to get them to do this like truly wild stuff?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Like, but again, not the, like... Not the beautiful, handsome, charismatic-looking, charismatic being. Maybe in his younger years. Eh.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Ashley, I feel like you should have led with all of that information.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
I mean, it's Fred, right? Not like Fred Fred because he's in county lockup, but like... It's Fred. Someone for Fred.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
I mean, all a good defense attorney needs is to find one small crack, and it sounds like they found one.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Wait, is he like missing, missing or just like hiding out, avoiding the trial?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So the big question now is, did Vicki McAllister have blonde curly hair?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Is there any testing they can do on it to see if it was used recently or anything?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
You know, it's always so like chilling but devastating to me when a victim like sees it coming. You know, like it's like a train barreling towards them that they can't stop. They can do nothing to stop.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Right. And also, like, I feel like we should take anything Dale says with like a grain of salt. Like he was probably doing illegal stuff with Fred.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Also, even if Dale is telling the truth, Fred being at his place at night kind of means nothing, right? Like we don't know when Charlotte actually went missing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
I just remember like miles and miles of fields with like these little houses peppered here and there, some wooded areas. Sometimes they're like separating the field. Sometimes they're just like in the middle hanging out.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Yeah. And again, like there's not much going on. There's not a lot out there. But if you're looking for something, the land can just seem endless to a point.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Well, and it's also not like this is just a suspect off the streets for Jenny and Jeff. Like this is their dad.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello
I mean, it's 1979. This is literally, like, the time to do that.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello
But still, he's not denying that they had had sex that night.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello
Okay. And I hate to ask this, but with the head trauma, how reliable is Diana's memory at this point? You mentioned earlier that she had had some memory loss.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello
So hold up. Kevin has been telling the truth this whole time.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello
And it would have helped him to say that, right? Right, right.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello
I honestly can't imagine how difficult that would be to process, like you said, to reconcile what you feel like you know versus what is known.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello
And they're saying someone broke in and did that in this 20-minute window.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello
I can't imagine being in that headspace where, you know, in the days leading up to this, you're like, oh, like, I can't wait to go to the hospital to see their new baby, their new grandchild.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello
Is that what they fought about? Or did the drinking lead to fighting about other things?
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
Hi Crime Junkies, it's Britt, and it's just me for right now, but not for long, so let me fill you in. A few months ago, our team was working on a case involving a girl who, along with her siblings, survived a home invasion in 1993 in which a man broke in and killed both of their parents.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
And so she's like she's saying all this to like inform who's ever on the other side. Why would she say that otherwise?
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
Yeah. So let's start with a little bit about you. Take us to your background, your childhood. Tell us about your culture.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
Yeah. I was gonna say if some like if I was in that situation now as an adult, I'd be like, wait, maybe I would even question myself. And you were nine. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
And what stands out to me in all of this is you talked earlier about like human error. This wasn't one human error two months before this happened. This wasn't one human error the night that it happened. This was error upon error upon misstep upon misstep the entire way through.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
Our family, which I'm sorry, I thought that's what law enforcement was for. Like, these are the very people put in place. Yeah. Right. Like by the government to protect you, protect you quite literally their job. Yeah, that's that's kind of their whole thing.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
She was the instigator. Yes. Oh, my God. Yeah. Not the man stalking her. No. Not his problem. Absolutely not. Her response to that was the problem. Yeah. So what was next for you and your siblings? What was the future like for you guys?
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
Yeah. And being responsible for trying to save his family. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
It sounds like a really beautiful way to grow up. Really, really tight family, really close and happy. Yeah. But we're here today for a specific reason. And I think now is like a really good time to kind of turn into that. Can you take me to everything that kind of happened?
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
That girl was Fallon Farinacci, and she is now a dedicated advocate for missing and murdered Indigenous people working to bring awareness, justice, and policy changes to address the crisis affecting Indigenous communities. And so in honor of May being National Missing and Murdered Indigenous Persons Awareness Month, we thought this was an important story to share. But it's her story.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
So what do you do for your own mental health? We've talked a little bit about mental health and how important it is having lived through this trauma. What do you do for you?
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
Right. They weren't the ones saying like, hey, let's look into this. It sounds like a good idea to do that. No, of course.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
And just roots itself there. And especially I have to imagine not just feeling unheard, but having documented proof that for hour upon hour, no one listened. Yeah. What made you click yes? Like, what made you go for it? I have no idea.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
You were making noise before you were even trying to, really.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
It's overwhelming the change that needs to happen in so many different sectors, but especially this one. Yes. Yeah. So that kind of leaves me with like a huge question for you. Where do you need us? What can we do?
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
Well, and I think... I hear that statistic, and unfortunately, I'm sure it's like this in Canada as well. In the U.S., that statistic is skewed because that's reported cases. Yeah, exactly. And that's also for our case as well. That's not the ones that aren't being reported or aren't being classified correctly or are being downplayed. So they don't fit that statistic.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
We talked a little bit about how your mom was very aware that her life was in danger, that at least her life was in danger, if not her family's. If there's a listener out there right now who who is in that place in their mind, they feel threatened. They feel like their life is in danger. What what can they do to make their voice heard and protect themselves?
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
Fallon, I cannot thank you enough for being here and being willing to tell us and the Crime Junkies your story. Such an important one. Is there anything else you'd like to add at the tail end of this?
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned a GoFundMe. Yes. We'll make sure to link that in the show notes as well as resources for the U.S. and Canada. So listeners, be sure to check that out. And again, thank you so much for being here.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
So I appreciate it very much. You are definitely not alone. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an Audiochuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
Which it's like family crown would be like family court here in the States. Yes. So like custody and stuff like that. That's... Not the situation at all.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
Which, again, like in family court would make sense. Like you have mediations as like a means to an end. But that's, again, not the case here.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
Yeah, especially like it comes across your desk, you open it to continue on with it versus like passing it off to like who it actually belongs to, where it can actually be handled properly with the court system that should be handling it. Feels like more than human error.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
So who better to tell it than herself? Today, I've invited Fallon to the Crime Junkie Clubhouse so we can hear directly from her. Now, before we jump in, I will tell you right up here at the top that we will not be naming Fallon's parents killer throughout the episode. For your reference, his name is Andre Ducharme, but as I'm sure you can understand, Fallon prefers not to use his name.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
Right. And I know here in the States is one of those things where you can't even act on it until it's violated. Yeah. Right. So like it's there until what? Yeah. Right. And like it doesn't do any good. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
She only refers to him as her mom's stalker or the stalker. And out of respect, I'll be doing the same. All right, enough of me. This is the story of Fallon Farinacci. Fallon, welcome to the Crime Junkie Clubhouse. We are so thankful you are here. You came all the way from Canada to be with us here in Indiana, and that's just incredible.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
So like the person who should have been going out and talking to this clearly irrational person. Yes. Holding hostages. Mm-hmm.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
Keeping an eye on the situation he's responsible for. Yeah, he accidentally fell back asleep. I can't imagine having that position and doing that, like having such disregard for the situation. Yes.
Crime Junkie
SURVIVED: Fallon Farinacci
And this is a small community. Like, I grew up in a small town. Like, there's usually not a lot around small communities. Like, you're kind of just a little dot on the map. Yeah. So this isn't...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
Well, and you have to assume he's going into this kind of knowing that Jeremy's likely lying to him with every single breath. That has to color everything Jeremy says.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
So, like, he shouldn't be driving around getting stuck in the mud, and also it can't be because Jeremy has it?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
So, the truck that got stuck, was that, like, Brian or Dave's truck? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
Well, I was also going to say, Brian and Dave are going to be the most impossible names to track down. Like, in Indiana, really?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
Okay, are we still waiting to arrest Jeremy? Like, I feel like right now could be a really good time.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
I mean, it's just such an outlandish— Is he saying this because he wants to? They got in a fight, and he's, like, at this, like, hiding place. Or you're just, like, showboating. I mean, it's— Bullshitting, yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
So are they thinking that the abuse could have been part of Jeremy's motive, like killing his dad with some sort of retribution for this alleged abuse?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
OK, you told me you would give me a lot of background, but then get to the search.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
So I know this is important, but is this the murder weapon?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
Right. Did this unit not pop up on any of the record searches before?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
But now he's been arrested and he couldn't. He couldn't pay for the unit and he couldn't replace the air fresheners. And is the murder weapon in the storage unit?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
So they just think this other family member knew about it but didn't tell anyone?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
Did she, like... fall out of her chair shocked? Or, like, what's the deal with her brother, I guess?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
And has Jeremy been around during this time that Fred's been missing?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
Probably not mentioning that he's been using dad's credit card.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
He had like a place and that's where he would go with his buddies. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
They were like, I don't know, moving together, one might say. Exactly. So it's time to go chat with Jeremy. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
Okay, so what's with this freezer that everyone's talking about? Like, I would think that you would know if there was a body in your own freezer, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Roger "Fred" Farmer
But I think the whole point is like, OK, you're like saying this rumor that he's rumored to have confessed to himself. Right. Right.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Who was the federal agent?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Yeah, that's the type of embarrassment that like wakes you up in the middle of the night seven years later and you just continue to cringe. Yes.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But it was a blizzard. Like, would we even expect there to be footprints in the snow?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
It's almost like a disconnection or dissociation with reality anymore.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But then why delete the calls? Right. Like, looking for your friend is a good thing.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Right. And I know a big theory online is that she was calling to find John's phone. So then they could, like, plant it outside near his body.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And we're just supposed to, like, believe all that. Like, that twice, the exact footage we need, including one from a local library, is just, uh-oh, missing, sorry.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So we're using this confession as that it actually happened, not a misremembering of what she said or what she could have said. And they like pick at this at trial.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Well, and didn't she, like, really early on, like, tell Carrie on the phone, like, I think he's dead? Like, right off the bat, she goes immediately to, John is no longer alive. Maybe he even got hit by a plow or something?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
They've been drinking all night. Is he sleeping it off somewhere?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But she's also kind of accusing him of maybe being with another woman in those voicemails, right? I know. It doesn't...
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Either way, how does no one remember this the right way?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And she drove off pissed. Yeah, wasn't she leaving, like, really, really angry voicemails, like, that whole night?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
This is what I could never, like, wrap my head around. Like, how are all the injuries so high up if she hit him, assuming he's standing, like, with her car?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And I feel like that's what, like, has fed into the conspiracy stuff is, like, they got rid of the dog. I mean, as a dog person, that's impossible to understand.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Okay. And aside, you or another friend like messed up a doggy DNA test for the same reason. Like it came back like completely bovine. Oh, that wasn't me. Yeah. Someone did like a dog DNA test and the test came back as like not dog because they had to give their dog a treat to do the swab. No way.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Yeah. So like that, like in my mind, like bears some credence. But also the Alberts sold their home around the same time, too, which like the combination of the two things, the defense, I think, finds pretty suspicious. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Yeah, like every crime junkie knows Life360, right? You should. Anyways, it basically like it's a tracking app for teens or whatever.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But that can't be the excuse for everything. The data isn't wrong. Those calls weren't answered. The data is wrong. Like I wasn't driving around. I know. I know. That's just a blanket excuse at this point.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Well, And I can't figure out why. Like, I still don't get the motive. I don't know. I think it's because there isn't a strong one.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Yeah, more people helping and trying to figure this all out.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Well, and didn't they make, like, a big deal about the Apple health data during the trial? Like, John specifically, like, where he moved and when he moved and all of that. Yes.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Well, and I was thinking when you were saying, like, the steps and how long it was, like... My devices think that I am running a marathon. Because we're doing this and talking. When I'm knitting. Because my hands and wrists are moving. And it's like, oh, wow, you're getting your steps in. And I was like, oh, dear.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Right, because at one point, she's not just asking if she hit him. Like, she says she did hit him, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
But is there proof he bought the truck or the truck? Oh, yeah. If Tracy's story about the murder was real?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
There's no proof of the intention or like. Right. Okay. Right.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
I know. Okay, just to lay this all out. No, you got it. The guy who sold potential evidence for profit and potentially like to help a suspect out and like by helping him out, like by helping him like cover something up. Well, I don't know why he did it. Okay. Potentially. Potentially. Allegedly. Maybe. Maybe.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
But now he's in charge. Of all the evidence. Of all the evidence.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
Okay, again, the guy who takes the statement is fired and charged. The guy who did the super sketchy thing is fined and given another job within the department and also, like, with the evidence, which is what he was accused of. Makes sense. Where's the rule book in all of this? Like, I'm not sure what's right and wrong here. Like...
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
I know what is, but what do they consider is right and wrong here?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
Like, even if you didn't do this intentionally... Why? Frankie Richard is in custody for things. And you're also, like, getting rid of something that's his?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
But is he a useful asset if he's just allowed to keep committing whatever crime he wants?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
Could Lawrence and or Byron have wanted to kill her to keep her quiet about Ernestine's homicide?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
Literally just, I think police killed your daughter and I think I'm in danger. Okay, bye. Yep.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
I was going to say, I feel like at this point we are... Kind of back to like, who do you go to?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
And I'm assuming Brittany and Crystal fit this sort of pattern, ran in the same circles, knew the same people.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
To each their own, as long as everyone's a consenting adult.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
I mean, I feel like there's proof of what people are saying. Like, I feel like there's proof that it's true. And hi, maybe we do need someone on the outside in charge of all of this.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
This is like the same as the muggy thing, though. If someone wanted to silence her, they waited so long to do it.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
That would be the same jail where Danny worked. Yep. Interesting.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
Which, no matter which way you slice it, is illegal because inmates can't consent to having sex with an officer. Correct.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
So it is possible that he would hear things first, right? Like knowing Loretta was missing or that Crystal had been killed, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
And I'd like to assume that if... There were no matches. We'd also want to say that part out loud, too, right? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
This one is great. It's kind of made me giggle. It's about a scary situation that actually turned into something not so scary and kind of a learning experience, too. So I liked it. I wanted to come on and tell you, first, thank you for telling the stories of the unheard. They need to be told. Second, thank you for retelling stories of survivors and giving us enough life rules to write a book on.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
However, one of these life rules actually saved my life. Kind of. I went to a store on a highway. It is a huge discount store and draws crowds of all kinds. It was a rainy day and I was by myself. I put my headphones in and turned on Crime Junkie to go thrifting. In the rain, it's just such a vibe. However, when I went back to the car, I loaded my stuff, got in the car, and drove off.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
I looked in the rearview mirror to merge lanes, and that's when I saw it. A tag. I was so scared. It was on the back window, a black object that wasn't meant to be there. My stomach dropped. The blood ran out of my face. And then I noticed a vehicle behind me. When I turned, they turned. This is when my radar went on. I started looking at the roads I was on. I was watching the time.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
I called my husband who had my kids. I told him what happened and then told him when I turned onto a new road, this was before we knew about Life 360, of course the person behind me turned. We traveled 26 miles like this. Shut up. Each turn closer to home, more dread of getting out of the car. I was terrified, but kept it together and marked each location and the time I turned.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
I even made my husband write it down. It was scary. Call the police. Hang up on your husband. Two more turns to home. Don't go home. I decided to go out to the farm where his parents lived. So these people didn't know where I lived. But they're like in this rural area, I assume? Yeah. Where I live, my dogs, my family lived. I had a newborn and a two-year-old at the time. I couldn't do it.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
One more turn towards the farm, the car behind me turned on a side road. That's when I turned in, ran into the house. This was the fastest I have ever ran. My husband and father-in-law went out to look at the car. They come back in laughing. I was in tears. They proceeded to tell me that the back wiper cover had come undone at the time.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
It was sticking up, which made it look like there was a black tag. Then the car that was following me, a van carrying Amish folks home from a shopping trip. Because the driver stopped by and talked to my father-in-law, because they knew each other. Now we make jokes about it, but I'm thankful that I was able to run a practice run because you never know when the real time comes.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
Because of this, we became fan club members shortly after, created If I Go Missing folders, got Life 360, and then fixed my car. Be prepared. Thank you, Ashley and Britt.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
I mean, we talked about this a couple of times. I thought Justin went missing and I called you first. You called me. We searched the house and it was a car that looked just like his parked in front of our car when he was not home. So I like this story.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
And now they've both been found in canals under suspicious circumstances. So I assume this only fuels the serial killer talk out there.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
The assumption being that she'd been in that bag and they'd used it to transport her. Yeah. Can they test the porch that the bag was matched on?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
But connections and like last moment connections to three out of four. I know. I know. It feels like more than a coincidence.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
There can't be a serial killer if three of the women couldn't be determined to be killed. Homicide. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8
What's that? I've never heard of a serial dumper. You haven't heard of it because it's not a thing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Okay, so just to be clear, Bud has a son who is around like Betty's age driving the car.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And by doing that, they're basically just discounting taxi driver Phillip's sighting. Like, this whole list, everything that they're counting on, they're main lead right now.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Was there anything that they could collect to potentially use later?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Okay. It says, Sirs, the following information was related to persons in the fall of 1971 concerning the murdering of a young lady later found on a beach near the Paw, Manitoba. The story was related by Lee Colgan being in a state of intoxication and near tears that he had been driving his car accompanied by Jim Houghton and Norman Manger.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
There were two or three mentioned, but their names are forgotten. They had forced the girl into this car where it was then driven to the murder site, the girl being raped by all. She had threatened police action. She was then murdered using a screwdriver, punch, or similar instrument.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Gordy Buck had seemingly witnessed the car returning from the beach in the early a.m., and Lee Colgan lives in constant fear of information possible being forwarded to the local authorities. It is hoped that investigation by the officers can produce results. The informants do not wish to identify as reprisals were threatened by Lee Colgan against the friends and families concerned.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
These men are all of the local area of the Paw, Manitoba.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
I know. And was this car still being, like, driven around? Like, the family had to have known.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Okay, so he's just, like, at the airport because that's where he is.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Like, surely someone reported this and looked into it. It's not important for me to come forward with it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And literally the others are just standing around watching it happen.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So if Dwayne is the one holding the weapon, Jim just was out there with him watching it happen? He helped Dwayne drag Betty?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
I mean, they have physical evidence, too, right? Like they have the murder weapon or two of them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Which makes sense because they weren't able to test any of that, to like definitively, without a doubt, say this was Betty's blood, this was Betty's hair.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Okay, so just to do some math... There were four people known to have been involved in this crime.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Like, fully there, while it happened, four people. There were three arrests. Mm-hmm. There were then two people on trial.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And out of those two people, we got... One conviction. One conviction. Yes.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
But what I can't get past is there were four people there that night. It, to me, doesn't really matter.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
That you're a nice guy now or if you were the one holding the weapon or not.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
While also, like, bragging about it on the down low. Like, almost making a mockery of the lack of justice.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So the only conviction we got. You got 10 years. Yielded a sentence of 10 years.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
It is clear that Betty Osborne would not have been killed if she had not been Aboriginal. The four men who took her to her death from the streets of the Paw that night had gone looking for an Aboriginal girl with whom to party. they found Betty Osborne. When she refused to party, she was driven out of town and murdered.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Those who abducted her showed a total lack of regard for her person or her rights as an individual. Those who stood by while the physical assault took place, while sexual advances were made, and while she was being beaten to death showed their own racism, sexism, and indifference. Those who knew the story and remained silent must share their guilt.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And be sure to follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
I have to imagine that Playboy boyfriend is one of the first people they look into.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
Which are all like pretty bold allegations. Did this tipster happen to mention why he felt Jimmy was involved? Like he felt this pretty strongly.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
Hypnosis, that means they have someone to hypnotize. Like who?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
You know, we see this all the time and it's so incredibly heartless, right? Like, yeah, you're messing around with police, wasting their time. But the most devastating part is giving Kimberly and Ethan's families this like little tiny glimmering bit of hope. And then it just gets ripped away just like that.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
But is there any evidence that Ethan or Kimberly were involved in drugs or would be in the park to buy drugs?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
Yeah. Maybe someone approached them about drugs and an argument ensued.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
I mean, they were probably still so focused on Don that, I mean, in 87.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
And in this, does Detective Sloan have the same hunch about Don that police had back in 85?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
You said DNA. What were they trying to match Jimmy's DNA to?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
Does he still think it's Don then? Like was Don's DNA tested?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
OK, that's all public information about like the crime scene.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
Even if he's talking about West Side Park, like this could just be a troll.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
And what I keep coming back to is, like, Jimmy's DNA didn't match the holster.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
This month, we have a submission from Kayla. My best friend and I are huge crime junkie fans. We actually have tickets to see you in New York in May. So soon. See you soon. But before I was a crime junkie myself, my best friend had stumbled upon one of your episodes at the end of the year in 2019. It had to do with domestic abuse. I can't remember the specific episode.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
However, when this episode was released, I was the one in the abusive relationship. I was still in denial at the time, even with all the mental and physical signs. I still acted like he was different and this wasn't abuse. I remember one night after work, my best friend was giving me a ride home and she played that episode in her car on the drive home.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
I only half listened as I felt like she was being dramatic and my boyfriend at the time would never go as far as murdering me. However, there are a few things that stuck out to me and it was what you guys said at the end. Oh, my God. At that time, everything had hit me like a ton of bricks.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
Everything said in the episode, the reason my best friend played it, all of it was flooding through my mind. I decided I didn't want to be a victim anymore. And I've since been able to get away. He is now in prison. I have three Siberian Huskies that helped me get through and gave me a purpose. And I am now an avid listener of your podcast.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
I use the resources you guys share, listen to the advice given, and hear the stories of the ones who weren't as lucky as me to make it out alive. I want to be a voice for them and advocate for victims. Your podcast, mixed with Walking My Dogs, literally got me through the toughest time of my life. My best friend and I can't wait to see you guys in New York.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
Thank you for sharing the stories and everything that you guys do.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
Yeah, but then why would it be on the dash and not in Ethan's hand? Like, thinking he was maybe trying to protect himself or something.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
The gunshot residue, they're in a car that's a pretty small enclosed place. They were both shot. That's explainable.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
Which, speaking of Terry, how did he not hear the gunshots? Like, he was in the park.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
Oh, my God. My daughter answers like random questions like this all the time. And it's frustrating then. It's infuriatingly frustrating here.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
Yeah. We all are. But most of us aren't melting down in the spot where they were found. So, like, what's your story, dude? Who is this guy?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders
And, like, that's great. I guess my biggest hangup about him as a possible suspect is why. Like, what would his motive even be for killing Kimberly and Ethan?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
But did it actually happen? I mean, you just said the time that this was, this is, like, peak satanic panic, like, era.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Which, I mean, this is like Occam's razor. It makes the most sense.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I mean, him witnessing a drug deal and then things going south or being tied to a tree, those seem a little out there. But him ODing doesn't seem that far fetched. I mean, no one can really explain why he was seen like stumbling around. He was at this party. Everyone's climbing up or no one's talking.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
It might have been like an OD that he was even conscious of because it seems like some of the witness statements, he didn't even know what was going on with himself.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And this is first thing in the morning, like as they're discovering Randy's not at their home.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I mean, I don't know how to feel about this. Yay? Question mark? Whose foot is it?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Because if you find a foot, it more than likely means the rest of the body is not alive. Who does it belong to? Right. And like.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Was there any significance to the timing of it being burned down? Like were police starting to like want to search it?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Are Randy's parents still thinking that something happened to Randy at the farm?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Like someone on the inside knows or feels like there could be something more that can be done that's not happening.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And having grown up sneaking clips of the Jerry Springer show with my parents. Having just watched the, like, expose thing. Oh, I haven't watched it yet.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
This was what the reaction, like, this is the reaction they wanted.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
But we're still kind of at square one because none of this told us how Randy's disappearance has anything to do with Eric at all.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Right. And if, if, if, if, big capital letter, if, this does somehow tie back to Eric and like protecting question mark Everett or like getting retribution. Why kill Randy?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
It doesn't make sense. And why kill just Randy? Like. teens, plural, were terrorizing Everett and one kid goes missing.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Right. Like everything is in here. Right. But because we don't we can't definitively say that they ever even talked. It almost feels more likely that they could have. And this is the answer. And this is why we don't know for sure.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So this isn't even coming from, like, law enforcement, court records involving Eric. Well, I think that's where they get it. But it's not, like, direct to the leeches. It's coming from these kind of three random people.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I'm sorry. I'm going to need you to rewind a little bit. Why is the teenager crying in the driveway? And like teenagers, I have one, not the cleanest people. They had a party the night before and there's no evidence of it.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Well, and I feel like so many agencies are giving them kind of the runaround.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
You didn't bring them in, though. You arrested them. Right. It feels like they're trying to downplay what happened, right? Yeah. To arrest someone, you have to have an arrest warrant. You need probable cause to get a warrant. You need someone to sign off on this. It's not just investigative purposes. Right.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
It wasn't out of nowhere. That's why they believed it when Terry showed up.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Or was it just a chance that he like reached out at the same time?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Or even picking up like how kind of odd all of these things put together are.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Okay. Sorry. I'm still wrapping my mind around this Terry Lee situation. Yeah. Did the police make those arrests based off of Terry's info then?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
If you're working for Unsolved Mysteries, you kind of want the mysteries to be solved, right? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
The end goal? Yeah, I don't. It's all bananas. Continue, Terry Lee.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Did Terry slash Lee get in trouble for his involvement? That's kind of a silly question. I don't even know what the crime is or would be.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So, I mean, where do they stand on Terry? Did they even know what this press conference in their house was going to be about?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I mean, what if there's nothing to talk about? I just keep coming back to the fact that Randy's still missing, but so is the car. The car was never found. Like, what if this was just a tragic accident and they went into the water somewhere?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And I guess that's just the thing that makes the most sense to me. Like if Randy found his keys and drove away. You said at the beginning, that's like Occam's razor. That's the most likely thing to have happened here. But the only thing that has me pausing and like rethinking literally everything. Is there so much weirdness?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
3-29-91. Other than being after Randy went missing, is there any significance to that date?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I was going to ask, like, when did this happen? Was it around 91? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
That is so wild. And, like... I'm not even going to ask the question because you don't have the answer. We don't know if this was like maybe like a tribute that a friend did.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And I guess I keep thinking if this is foul play, someone did an incredible job at hiding that car.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Which makes me wonder if they do have something that they just don't want anyone to know, whether it's a suspect or evidence that they just don't want out there yet.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Especially because when you think about evidence or a person like I said yet and immediately regretted it, like what's there to lose at this point?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Today, we have a submission from Autumn. Hi, guys. I have been listening to y'all's podcast since 2020, and I fell in love with true crime. I've always been interested in crime, even as a child watching CSI, Dateline, etc. Same.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Yeah. But y'all's podcast opened the door to more conversations about crime and violence, especially partner violence, that more people should be having. I actually work as a victim slash sexual assault advocate for my local county in Texas and just received my national certification of credentials. And y'all's podcast helped fuel that passion for advocacy work.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Hearing all the stories weekly of women and men killed and assaulted, the statistics you present in your episodes, the advice on how to handle missing person reports and handle law enforcement have all been things I've used to excel in my work as an advocate. In my interview, I actually mentioned the seven times to leave statistic that I learned from your podcast.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
My job is to help lessen the trauma victims experience from being subject to violent crime. And I can't tell you how many women and men I see dealing with horrible abuse. I use my position as a way to advocate for their strength to leave, provide them resources to get out and let them know they're not alone in their fight.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Every week, the stories you tell on the podcast remind me why my work will never end and why I do what I do. Every episode reminds me why victim advocates are such an important asset to victims and their families. Thank you both for the work you do advocating and for inspiring people like me to join advocacy fields too.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And what's crazy is, like, I would never have said that, like, I would have never thought of podcasting as an advocacy field, but we are. Let's go, girl. Amazing. Thank you, Autumn.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So do we know, like, towards the end of his time there, when did he leave? How was he planning on leaving? Like, was it with a group of people?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And that's 7 o'clock in the morning. Party ends at 2.30. I was going to say, there were only stragglers who were staying overnight at 2.30. Yes. That is such a small amount of time to just make any evidence that a party even happened disappear.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
My husband and my son both, like, play D&D pretty regularly. It is, I think it's kind of lame. But, like, everyone has their thing.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Everyone has their thing. And, like, this is so benign and innocuous. And, like, I'm trying to put myself in the mid-80s when this was, like, a big, very scary thing.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Something that not everyone else in the community is doing. And that's sad and frustrating.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
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Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
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Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
And, like, I've seen these drawings so many times, Ashley. And... They're violent. They're violent.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
Some of them have, like, machete, like, knives. Yes. And, like, stabs. There's also things that are, like, military patches. Yeah. And there's homework in the middle of one of the drawings.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
And I told you like my son's in high school now. He was in middle school and he also drew weird things. Like I showed you some of his drawings. It was like a cat god and a scepter. But it's also like on algebra homework. It all felt very benign to me.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
Police identified her as Peggy Hetrick, 37, college dropout, bar hopper and aspiring writer who worked at the Fashion Bar, a nearby clothing store. Her friends privately worried something horrible would happen to her, given her late night impulses, her jealousies, her appetite for adventure.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
Sometimes she would head out into the night just to collect details for the book she was writing or to spy on her boyfriend.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
Which the only thing police would have that belonged to Peggy is evidence.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
Which matricide is killing your mom and displaced in this case would mean like Peggy equals Tim's mom.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
Which, like, is a theory. But if you're watching on YouTube, you can see it. If you're listening on the app, it just popped up. His mom doesn't have red hair, Ashley?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
They couldn't have taken him to trial, convicted him on just this. They wouldn't have arrested him just on that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
Which we talk about appeals a lot in our episodes, but I think it's easy to forget how expensive it is. It costs money to fight for your life like this.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
The prosecution essentially owns the rights to the evidence against you.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
And I just want to point out exactly what you said. This happens next. So this evidence destruction happens after they get permission to test it. It's not like, oops, we don't have the evidence anymore. It's gone. It's, oh, you want it? We're getting rid of it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
It's wild. It has nothing to do with this case, but it's something that we know.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
Today's special episode of Crime Junkie is presented by State Farm. Ever had that feeling of what now when life throws something at you that you didn't see coming? Maybe it's a car accident, a big move, or even just driving off a lot with your brand new car. With a State Farm agent, you know someone is there to help you choose the coverage you need. With so
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
My problem with that is like her coat isn't just on her. It's on her with her purse still over her shoulder.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
But there should still be like dust and pieces of grass.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
And the blood there by the curb and the trail, that's from the stab wound, not the mutilation, right? Like active bleeding.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1
And don't wait too long because once it's gone, it is gone.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
So we're back there. That adds almost, what, three more decades to the estimated time frame of her death? Yes.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But what about the ring? Judy O'Donnell doesn't match the initials.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Which is... Shocking, a surprise, and like disappointing, but at least they have DNA that they can work with now, right?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
When they checked missing persons reports, were they checking from the Midwest or just like New York and the surrounding area?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
That kind of match right off the bat is... Unheard of almost. Yeah, really rare. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Uh, the uppercase M, lowercase C, uppercase G from the ring.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Okay, so we've got one man, three wives, two of whom were at the same time, and at least four kids?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Hold up. Can we please, like, call them Junior and Senior from here on out? Can you imagine, like, having a son and naming after you? And then having a wife whose daughter is named after her? It's wild. So sure.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
So Pat was the witness at her daughter's wedding to this grown-ass man? Yes. Cool, cool, cool.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Hold up. I know the clothing label date was wrong, but what about that rat poison wrapper? Wasn't that from like the late 70s?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Wait, are you saying the character Pauly Walnuts was based on him or that the actor himself actually used to be a mobster?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Well, yeah, someone encased in concrete kind of speaks for itself.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
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Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
OK, well, we're going to do our best so you guys can see the presentation. Yeah, for sure. On the website. And make sure you send us your submission for the good and cheer us up a little bit.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
It makes me wonder if she left home or was somehow like taken from family or caretakers well before she died. Like at some point, somebody cared enough to get her that expensive dental work. But then somewhere along the line, something changed. Right.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Okay, but at least with this watch being from 66, we know that this body is at least from like the 60s.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Was that all buried with her or did it just like end up with her over time?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Well, and it's not just about burying her, right? Like, unless this basement already had concrete stored in it, they'd have to haul that down there, making multiple trips in and out, like, make the concrete.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
You know what doesn't make sense to me about the sex worker theory, though? Like, in so many cases we've covered where the victims were sex workers, the killers just dumped them somewhere on the side of the road, in an alley, ditch. They didn't even try to hide what they've done or what they did.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And like if they did do that, like Lisk, like they did try to hide, the victims were like super, super hidden, close together, or at least buried outdoors. But this guy, he went to extreme lengths to try to make sure like she would never be found, not even by accident. Right.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Yeah, but anything could happen. Like, what if he dies? I guess, in my opinion, why wait?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And Ray aside, is there any theory around why hands and heads were removed? I mean, to prevent identification...
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Like the FBI asked him for it or he did that as part of his investigation?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And Chief Tortelot said no one has been ruled out as a person of interest.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Is that stuff her family can share with her? Didn't you mention something about Ray's mom?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And were they close? Like, I know cousins can mean, like, very different things for different families.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
She basically predicted exactly what was going to happen to her.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
What? Reese told someone that she was afraid that she was going to end up like her cousin, that someone was mad at her. Someone was going to cut off her head. Yes. A couple months later, the exact thing happens. I know. Exactly like she predicted. And no one looked into it.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
I wish these different counties would just talk to each other more.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Nobody noticed she was gone for five months?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Do we know which is correct? Was she meeting a girlfriend or Pedro that last night?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
It says, on 4-4-12 at 2.40 p.m., squad 2131 went to the address of 825 South 23rd Street, number 6, to conduct follow-up regarding the missing person, Julia Baez. At the address, we found that apartment number 6 does not exist. The building only houses apartments 1 through 5. This was confirmed by the mailboxes and meters located in the rear of the building.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
There was also no Baez on the mailboxes. What? I know. It's 22 years later and also this apartment doesn't exist?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
I mean, did they try to contact her children or do more follow up with Pedro or the friend she was out with? Not that I know of.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Is this his way of telling the public not to panic? Or is he, like, trying to connect things?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
You can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Okay, this month's submission is actually a sort of response to a story that we featured on the Good segment before. Ooh, full circle. Yeah, I don't know if you remember, but back in September 2023, we read a letter about the Freedom Canine Project, which is an Indianapolis organization specializing in training service dogs for victims of sexual violence and people with PTSD. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Well, some pretty cool things have been happening over there, and this is a submission from Lydia. Dear Ashley, Britt, and team, I'm not sure if you remember us, but you featured my nonprofit organization, Survivors Companion, then going by the name Freedom Canine Project, on a good segment a little over a year ago. And wow, what a freaking impact you made.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Not only did your donation make a gigantic difference in what we were able to accomplish this year, but your crime junkies showed up and showed us so much love. In donations, follows, volunteering, etc., They really came through and helped us grow in ways I never could have expected. We are so grateful and hope you know what an impact you've made. Lydia, CEO and head trainer. Thank you, you guys.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
That is like a good for you guys. Like our listeners went out and donated, volunteered for this organization just by hearing some good. The good continues.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Well, that's not exactly what you want to hear from an investigator.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And for me, I always like can't quite wrap my head around the statement, there's no evidence of foul play because there isn't evidence of not foul play. Like, what does that mean?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
It's always so wild to me that psychics were just like regularly involved in investigations back then.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Quick question. Is Tortolat a common name there? No.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
But, I mean, it could have been more. When people were calling 911, did they say one shot or…
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
But it's not uncommon for witness accounts to be off, especially in what seems like a really chaotic situation like this was.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
Does Brenda mention Frank at all? Like is he part of her narrative, her story?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
OK, so what about the girls that Solomon was with? Did Frank or Brenda describe them? Like, was one of them Gail?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
But if these guys were already in a gang, why would they need to do some kind of initiation?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
Yeah, I mean, I've watched Law & Order. They all come with that little like headline of where it is, what's happening, what time it is. And it's like constant.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
This is like beyond frustrating to me. I feel like all the puzzle pieces are right there, right here.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
So wait, did no one ask Brenda if he was there? Like about Frank's like witnessing of it?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
While you're talking to me, let me tell you that this other person is also connected to this other case you haven't even talked about yet.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
Would they both get charged with murder or just one of them since it was technically like the bullet, like the gunshot that killed him and the one who shot him could be charged with murder versus the one who stabbed him?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
You can also follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
So had he, like, still been in the park after playing basketball? Or was he at that party that was going on?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
I don't even know what kind of person names their child Loser. I can't even begin to guess.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
So all that stuff about him like rushing upstairs, getting the jacket, going back out, like all of that in her story is just gone.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
And if Gail's lying and she actually was with Solomon when he was killed, I mean, that's not just an eyewitness. It's like an essential eyewitness.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
That doesn't make any sense. Like, Solomon wasn't in a gang.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Solomon Robinson
So they're basically hoping to catch these guys for something else and then connect it back to Solomon.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
I guess I'm trying to, like, think of how I greet my friends or, like, my neighbors.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, like, I would say, like, good morning to anyone walking down the street, I think.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Which makes even less sense. If we're working off the theory that they knew she'd be outside and timed it to when Sergio might be leaving, then why even get there that early? Why would you be waiting around at 2 a.m.? If they're already there, why not attack when she goes out to get Starbucks at like 6 o'clock?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So there's a chance that they came by at 2 to scope the area out.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Yeah, like a long coat that's, like, kind of billowing out or could billow out. And then there's definitely, like, go-go boots or, now that you mention it, stormtrooper boots would make sense. That's what they think. I don't know.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And what about the woman that Sergio had mentioned earlier, especially since there's a chance the shooter might be female?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So what about her actual work? Like, could she have found out about something she wasn't supposed to?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
I mean, it's not like a garage sale is a secret, though. That's kind of the whole point. I mean, surely someone mentioned it or heard about it in passing in the past months.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And why were they holding it on a Friday? Wouldn't a Saturday make more sense?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And there's not some, like, garage sale spree killer out there at the time, right? No. Like, I don't think I've heard of any similar cases.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Yeah, but everyone knows that police checked phone records. Like, what if he used a burner? I mean, did they use, like, one of those cell tower dumps that they do where they just get everything?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Right. But it wouldn't necessarily have to be like a fortune that we're talking about. And we've heard stories about hitmen working for pennies, practically nothing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
But when you think about everything that had to line up, like, just so perfectly for all of this to happen this way.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And like you said, since when is half a million dollars not that much?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
But even just knowing about the policy could be enough of a motive, even if you never actually get the money. True. And you still haven't mentioned anyone else who knew Liz's schedule and had something to gain from her death. Just him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Yeah. Someone says like, oh, I thought this was weird that they did. They seem to have this in their relationship. She mentioned this one time. There's nothing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And hang on, did Liz confront Oscar about any of this? It feels like she's kind of removed from all of this financial stuff.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Well, and it's not even like his dad would have gotten the money when Liz died. I don't see how it helps him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Okay, but if we're supposed to believe that Sergio didn't even know the amount of the policy, he likely didn't know it was going to double if she was murdered. How the heck would Oscar have known?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
It becomes like Oscar is the mastermind theory. Right. Is Sergio suspicious of his dad at all?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
How did they set off her alarm if she was shot out by the driveway?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Can they narrow it down by looking at other connections, trying to triangulate people who own a Frontier or a dark-colored Frontier and a .38 revolver?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And I was honestly about to say something similar about the truck. I mean, maybe it was stolen or borrowed from a
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And this feels like a no-brainer, but I assume they checked everyone in the neighborhood, like, especially in that specific cul-de-sac?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
I mean, this is just kind of what happens, right? Like the longer a case stays unsolved, the more room there is for speculation and misinformation and rumors and gossip.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
That sounds like something you would say if you knew who did it and knew that that person was close to them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And did he ever end up collecting on that life insurance policy?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And they can't just keep it away forever, though, can they?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Is there a reason people are saying this is a possibility? Like, to me, I feel like we know this person is waiting specifically for Sergio to leave. They don't need the camera. You don't need the camera because this is like part of their routine.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Which is a super short amount of time, but I'm thinking like people are leaving for work, taking like their dogs on walks. Did anyone see this happen?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Were they coming back to get something? Like did they stop or was it just a drive by? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And maybe they parked further away because they had spotted that camera.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
I guess I'm trying to decide where the line is between like crime junkie paranoid and laying out all this groundwork to cover your tracks. It's strange.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
So it's kind of looking like Simons might have been right with his theory that, like, it all comes down to Jill.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
Ugh! Bloody Hitchhiker Dude might warrant some further investigation.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
And you didn't really talk much about the scene. Like, do we know they were actually killed at Spiegelville Park or could they have been killed at Caney Park and then moved?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
But that also could be like almost drag marks if like they could look kind of similar, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
Though he rarely discusses it with other law enforcement officers, Simons insists he's always been able to feel a certain violence in the air at the scene of a crime. It lingers, he says, like a choking residue, a grim, almost tangible reminder that on a particular spot, some unspeakable evil has taken place.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
On several occasions, in fact, he's returned to the scene only to find the atmosphere of violence still present, as real as it had been at the time of the initial investigation. In the darkening woods of Spiegelville Park, there were no such feelings.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
Do you know if anyone searched Caney Park to see if there was blood there? I mean, screams or not?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
I mean, who's to say that they were killed outside, I guess?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
It seems like you said like a note like notable gashes.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
Did she make any kind of conclusions about what kind of weapon had been used?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
The first thing that comes to mind is, like, whoever did this, like, didn't come, quote-unquote, prepared, right? Or at least prepared for three people.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
And it's weird that, like, it's all Jill's stuff, right? Isn't it? It's her bra. It's her shirt. Like, she's the through line with the bindings. She's the only one with defensive wounds. She has the, like, most notable torture wounds.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
Have any of the families mentioned anything about this?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
We are so excited to see you guys in just a few short months. And I cannot wait to bring you, seriously, like, the wildest case, Ashley. Like, and to do it in person.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
And this would be like a hell of a first murder, like zero to 100. Right.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
Especially if he's, like, trying to muscle money out of people. Right, right, right. Like, kind of puff himself up.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
Which makes a $3,000 drug debt seem a little far-fetched.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
A bold move. I don't hate it. Oh. But... I mean, I've seen people get demoted for less. Yeah, I was like, that's dangerous.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
But, like, he knows that's not real, right? Like, who the hell would promise to solve, like, any case, let alone this case, in a week?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
But what's connecting Chili to all of this? I feel like he's kind of like popping up out of nowhere.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
But the line between follow your gut and trust your gut at all costs, like I feel like it's starting to blur and like not in a great way.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
Okay, I take it all back. Maybe the gut isn't totally off.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
I mean, do they look that similar that Munir would mix them up?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
Does this accident policy, like, pay out on murder? Like, I know they're all different, but, like, does it have to be a true accident? I don't know.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
And, like, what Simons was authorized to offer, right? Yeah, exactly.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
And I'm Britt. And I have some exciting news. Last week, we officially shared that we are hitting the road for a Crime Junkie tour.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
And in this, like, theory, this layout of how everything happened, is Munir still the mastermind of it all? Like, are we still talking a case of, like, mistaken identity? It was supposed to be Gail, but it was Jill?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
Do they actually have anything concrete proving Munir hired them?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
And the next question is, if Kenneth is here, where are Jill and Raylene?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
This is it. And six years ago, tickets sold super, super fast.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
How does he even know that there was a single target, though?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
And like you even like it even happened when you went on a tour with the deck, too.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
Like I know sometimes it wasn't like rebelling and being like, I'm just not going back. It was sincere.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1
I guess I don't get why Jill sounded so scared the day that she had talked to her mom about moving home. It doesn't seem like she was scared of Kenneth.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
That's so inefficient. Like, everyone knows, like, a tiny little piece of one case that just keeps getting, like, hot-potatoed around to investigators.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
Did they ever find out where Gerald was last seen? Because I feel like that's the pattern here. The rest of them were all seen at like a bar or a nightclub.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
So he's not just saying that his patient confessed. He's saying that he believes that confession.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
I assume with him being called the doodler, the public knows about the sketches, too, right?
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
And this guy is, like, a good artist, too, that they're calling in about?
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
And are you saying that they won't even like come in and ID the guy or they just won't cooperate if slash when it comes to testifying?
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
OK, can you just put this a little bit in context for me? When Warren is attacked in April of 75.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
I wonder if it was after Harold because that's when he got the string of other victims that start surviving.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
So why are they even doing all this? Like what exactly are they looking for?
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
Okay. Yeah. I was kind of wondering about that. Like, he's saying this guy confessed to him. He believes the confession. Like, dude, I don't know.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
I mean, TBD records in the 70s, plus, like, maybe he's already passed away. I mean, how old was he back then?
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
Was there a chance the name was wrong? Like, was it, like, a visiting doctor? Like, a temp? A sub?
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
Like, I get maybe not a threat to the public, but do we not care about justice for his victims?
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
Those are like two different things I understand, but let's address at least one of them.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
I mean, one could even say that they're like the second wave of victims of the doodler, you know?
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
It's like he's not a threat to the community that he was a threat to at the time.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
Yes. I think you're going to love this one. This is from Joy. Hi, ladies. Story time. I live in central Arkansas. Last year, we had a 14-year-old girl who ran away from home in our community. A very long and interesting story. But anyway, here's what I want people to know.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
But anyway. Details. But anyway, moving right along. Community involvement lesson number one. The community became aware that she was missing, but the local police were not doing much and didn't consider her missing because it was clear she left on her own. The mama bears in our community called BS.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
They organized, hung banners, created social media feeds, contacted organizations, contacted media outlets, hit the streets with flyers, and pressured the police. Through community pressure, the police finally stepped up and started really looking for her and participating in finding her. Community Involvement Lesson 2.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
Because the Mama Bears were able to get her photo spread countrywide, and the crime junkies of the world are awesome, a librarian hundreds of miles away in another state was able to recognize her from the missing child post and called police. We got her back safe and sound. She had been gone for weeks, had hopped a train, and was so far away. But people paid attention, cared, and got involved.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
Community Involvement Lesson 3. Because of the community's vocal unwillingness to accept that a child that runs away shouldn't be looked for, the local police have been much more active in the search for missing quote-unquote runaway teens. And the even better news is that it has spread through the entire central Arkansas area.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
I now see all of our regional police stations posting about and investigating runaway cases and treating these kids as missing. They don't want to face the wrath of the mama bears.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
I know. Anyway, be weird, be rude, save lives, which I think is amazing. Isn't that so, like... Full body chills. I love that one.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
So when they get out there, did the guy in the water look like he had just gone in or had he been dead for a while? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
And do we know what he had gotten in trouble with police for? Like, why they had his records?
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
Which to me makes me wonder if maybe Gerald was out there like with the caller, like they were out on the beach together.
Crime Junkie
SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler
It's like an area of San Francisco that in the 70s had a really vibrant, progressive culture.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
He says, quote, But then you've got guilt. It's the worst thing. I can't think of anything worse.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Hey Crime Junkies, it's Britt, and I'm jumping in here because post-recording this episode, some news happened. As I'm sure you all know, a verdict has since been reached in the Delphi case, and Richard Allen has been found guilty on all counts. Though there's some mixed feelings about this one, the jury felt like there was enough presented to convict him. So that's where we're at today.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
But like Ashley said, verdict aside, all we had hoped for was some type of closure for the families by the end of all of this. Of course, this conviction won't give them Abby and Libby back, but hopefully they've found at least some of the answers they've been searching for. Answers that, unfortunately, not every family gets in seven years or 10 years or even a lifetime.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
There's no lawnmower. There's no phone. It's just them. No.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
But that doesn't mean we should ever stop fighting for them. So let's jump back into today's story where justice is still yet to be served.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Double abductions that are incredibly rare.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
And then Lyric and Elizabeth happened in 2012 by who knows.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
When did this guy even have time to get married?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
And let's be clear, there's a pattern here. He goes to prison, gets out. Within a year, he's reoffending. Like every time.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Ashley, can I tell you something shocking? Phones don't abduct people.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
OK, but I feel like we don't see a lot of consistency in pattern with his other stuff, though. So, like, why would that like is there enough to say like this isn't something he would do based on the wide variety of ways he's assaulting people in the past?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Yeah. He's he's a bad guy who preys on people.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Yeah, so it says Perp may have been experiencing problems in his personal life, may not talk much about the case, but is probably following it closely in the news, may have altered his appearance and or the appearance of his vehicle.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Perp is probably familiar with Myers Lake, could probably blend in and could be from Evansdale or Braymore County. Probably used either a ruse or threats of violence to get the girls to comply.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
And it says he probably chose Seven Bridges because he knew how secluded it is.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
And like probably has a history of abductions and attempted abductions.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Well, and, like, he didn't just know about the area. He ran away and hid there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
He knows it's secluded because he chose it as a hiding place.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
So that's like a sedan. So, I mean, what would he have done with Lyric and Elizabeth's bikes? Like, Michael, he had a truck. Like, that made sense.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
I mean, I kind of leaned toward, like, dumped there just thinking about how her purse was kind of, like, tossed in another area.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
And the bodies were somewhere completely different.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
And no one in any way has connected Richard Allen, who's charged in the Delphi case, to Iowa at all, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Strange turn of fate or small town America.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
I was going to say, I feel like this is enough that they'll believe me, but I can distance myself from it. And then when it starts falling apart, he has to kind of like out himself more.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
And it's far enough that he has to... Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Yeah, make sure that the paper trail is clean.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
But investigators are still saying Michael's in the clear.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
And they haven't done anything to contradict that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
So I like we just give you a little extra. Yeah. Okay, so this one is from Jennifer H., and it definitely, definitely gives me so much to be grateful for. Hi, Ashley and Britt, and all of the incredible staff at AudioChalk. Which, side note, hi. Like, thank you so much for, like, saying something about our incredible, incredible team here.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
I'm 49 years old and live with my family in Westfield, Indiana. Oh, boy. Yeah. I love her, but, like, no, I don't. Like, clearly you've been listening to me and Brett. Yeah. Well, for as long as I can remember, like literally since I was about 10 years old, it was my dream to become a lawyer. From a young age, I have been passionate about justice for victims and for those wrongfully convicted.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
I knew I could help change the world by working in the legal field. However, growing up in a cult that wouldn't allow women in the workplace, I gave up on that dream. Many years later, after we escaped the cult and I started my re-entry into the real world, I just assumed that dream was gone and that I had to grieve what could have been.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
During the beginning stages of my healing journey from the trauma of being in a cult, I discovered you and your podcast. I couldn't get enough. Yes, I am a top tier fan club member, have been to your events and tell everyone I meet about the incredible work you all are doing. That passion for fighting for justice was reignited thanks in large part to the work you're all doing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
After much soul searching, lots of therapy and self-reflection, I realized that I am the only one who gets to decide my destiny. Yes, girl. The passion for justice still burns hot in my soul. Watching what you at Audiochuck have accomplished for victims, their families, and the narrative around true crime has motivated me to grab my dreams and run with them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
That being said, at the age of 49, I have applied and been accepted into college as a first semester freshman. I will be majoring in criminal justice with the hope of going to law school once I have my undergraduate degree. Is it a lofty and possibly crazy goal? Probably.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
But you all have inspired me to fight for my dreams and help change the world by advocating for victims and their families. I hope someday to meet you all in person. Actually, let's be honest, working for AudioJack would be an absolute dream come true. Girl, you're just around the corner. I know, Westfield, come on.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Thank you again for all the work you do for victims, for teaching us the life rules of a crime junkie, and for inspiring so many of us to never give up the fight for justice. Here's to, oh, I got chills, a long season of justice. gratefully, Jennifer H. And to women not stepping aside. I love this letter so much.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
She used the word destiny and it's such a powerful word.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
And I love that... All the time. At 49, she's... That's the thing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
I'm going to be completely honest. When we started Crime Junkie, we said we were going to give it a year. When we're 30, we have to get serious. We have to like, if it doesn't happen by then, it's over for us. We said that. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
And a dream. Like, she's been dreaming about this.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Do the girls normally come out to this lake?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Is there anything there with the bikes, like their shoes? I mean, they wouldn't wear their shoes to go swimming, like any of their stuff?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
There's no way that they searched this entire lake in an hour.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
You know, if you want something done right. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Honestly, I was going to stop you and say same. Like, why would Elizabeth's purse be on the fence on the other side?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Right, I'd say that's a plea. With 30 years?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
But how would any of that connect to the girls?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
We've had cases where people are on like blood pressure medication and they opt to refuse a polygraph because like they don't know that's going to affect things. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Which I'm sure makes them just look even more suspicious. I mean, it becomes like a vicious cycle.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
Yeah. Are the investigators looking at anyone else, like, besides the family?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins
And anything that's out there isn't going to be near the quality that we have today.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Wouldn't it be nine victims if six were already there and then three came home?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
You just keep repeating that like it's going to make more sense a second time around. What the f*** is an abortion boat?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Nothing to back this up, I assume. Just kind of a combining of their two possible scenarios.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Can we prove that that part is real, this duo and their clinic?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Is he saying that they did this procedure on the boat? Or like the boat that picked them up and was supposed to take them to where the abortion would happen?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Want to wish all mothers a last Mother's Day. Yes, I said last Mother's Day. Just now, over TV, the name has been changed to Birthing Person Day. I hope all you women slash mothers see the respect the Democrats have for your kind of devotion to America's youth.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Let me be one of the first to announce support for renaming all abortion centers, abortion doctors, and Planned Parenthood groups killing centers from this day forward as a last vestige of true patriotic Americanism. Our mothers.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Yesterday, my dear Aunt Shirley was buried at 90 years old, the devoted mother to four wonderful children and the surrogate mother of more than 30 foster children in her busy lifetime. She was more than a birthing person. She was God's angel sent to Earth to become a mother, not to be a murderer of children or killing centers where confused women go who don't have the ability to be a mother."
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Thank God she was already in heaven today and didn't have to bear being demoted from a truly loving mother to just another person the Democrats can add to their voter rolls as a person. Sort of like changing the name applied to an illegal criminal alien to a poor undocumented person. Wow, Ashley. What? Mm-hmm.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
I was going to say, I am a horse girl. I grew up with a horse that I would have never in a million years left behind for anything. He was my baby.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
No, like standing on the shore, it honestly looks like an ocean.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Are they sure they even got on a boat in the first place? I know we have that one sighting of the three girls getting on the boat, but did anyone else see that happen?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
But it also might just mean that the guy who owned the boat isn't around to report it missing or couldn't call it missing. in before something happened.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
all the more reason to be suspicious. I mean, something clearly happened here. The boat didn't douse itself in gasoline.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
A metal rowboat that was also made of turquoise plywood and collided with something with enough force to just completely disintegrate it into pieces.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
So now they think the women peaced out on purpose?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Okay, so not drowning, but no evidence of foul play. Based on what? What?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
But there's also no evidence that it wasn't foul play.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Yeah, and listen, I get that walked off on their own is always a theory when you have a person go missing. But to me, it seems super far-fetched to think about three women with three different lives, three different sets of circumstances, all committing to disappearing at once on purpose. It's not not possible.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
She didn't even give him the letter, though. I know. And that has nothing to explain the other two disappearing with her.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And again, I say it has nothing to do with why Anne and Patricia would have left. Like, they're not giving up their lives in, what, solidarity over a husband's hobby?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Obviously, like you said, I knew about the concept, but I wanted to read up a little bit before this episode. So I found an article on Scary Mommy, which I'll link to if you want to go deeper. There's even a book on this. But basically, there were these homes where families of unmarried, pregnant girls and women...
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
They hid their daughters away while they were pregnant so no one would have to see them.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Obviously, they were out there living their lives. The women were the ones forced to wear the scarlet letter in the form of that baby bump. Then once they gave birth and their babies were adopted out voluntarily or otherwise, then and only then could the women and girls be returned to polite society.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Hold up. She went to Mexico to marry someone to get her U.S. immigration papers in order? It doesn't make sense. And now she's supposedly stuck in Mexico or the U.S.?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
OK, none of this BS even explains the car, though. Like, if you're going to tell us a story, tell us a whole story, Jonathan. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Mm-hmm. And what does he have to say about that 727 number?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Based on the video, can they tell if he put anything in the car?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So her family has to regularly interact with the person that they're pretty sure killed their sister and their daughter. Well, not even interact, but, like, in their own home. I mean, that's gotta be, like, absolute hell for them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
I mean, what more do we need here, people? I know. I mean, arrest this guy already.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
They have camera footage. The fibers. To me, the camera footage is almost better than an eyewitness. You don't have to worry about memories getting misinterpreted from actual footage. Then you have cadaver dogs hitting in the trunk.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Yeah. Yeah. Like you have him lying about her car. You have him pretending to be her over text messages. Like there's so much that's there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Which is why cases like this have to be taken so seriously from the very beginning.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Okay. I mean, unless he's like out of underwear, what's the rush?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And it's just like, well, it doesn't seem like he's planning on taking care of Astrid. Like, it seems like he's going to leave her there with Yeneth.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
They say, Hey girl, how are you? Sorry for what I did with Astrid. I'm not going to be able to help Jonathan by myself, please. I'm good, don't worry about me, please. I'll call Jonathan now to tell him how things are. I don't want to talk to anyone for the moment. Give me my space. I just want to put down my thoughts and what I want to do.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Yeah. Like, can he even do that without the other parent there? Like, he's only one of two people who have custody of Astrid.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Oh, wait, the ones that made him, like, feel so much better. Because nothing's wrong. Nothing's wrong.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
I'm going to be honest, I don't think Lizbeth's going to get the message.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And were they close with Jonathan before this? Like, is this kind of, I guess I'm trying to figure out, like, is this in line with what they know about him? Like, do they have, like, any sort of context?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
I'm sorry, what? Between this and all the victims' faces either being covered or turned away, that feels really intentional and like important. Like whoever did this didn't actually want to see their faces, who they were doing this to.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
And that's kind of what they all say, though, right? Like, what about money problems?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
Is it just me or is it odd that the baby's cause of death is different?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
Which to me is all the more reason to think that the door wasn't kicked in. I mean, you'd think that Cheryl would have heard that her husband's out of town, you know, like she might be feeling super aware, waking at every little sound, let alone the sound of her door being kicked in.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
And I realize this was, like you said, the 90s. Basic forensics were probably a little less common knowledge back then. But this guy's a science teacher. Like he might have had like a little deeper knowledge on all that stuff than a normal layperson. What's confusing is the kids weren't messed with. So like, why try to throw things off with the waterbed with her?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
Or you just have the other option that it just got turned on.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
It means nothing, and it's just this additional weird thing in the crime scene.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
And depending on the story in the cut, I'm like seven different pant sizes. I feel like he could probably have squeezed his feet into size 11 shoes.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
But John's story was that he didn't even leave the hotel until late that morning to go golfing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
If this was like months, even weeks ago, I'd be like, okay, little mix up. But we're not asking about a month ago, John. We're literally talking like 24 hours ago.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
Was it all truly staging, though? I mean, the photos being turned around feel like a very real... That part feels real, right? And it would take time to do, but it more makes me think it was someone, like you said, who knew the family, who couldn't bear to look at all these photos. It's the only real thing here.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
Listen, I am admittedly not a math girlie. But how hard would that be to fake, though? Especially if this was like planned well in advance, just pad your mileage log here and there for days, weeks. So when it all comes down to it, those extra miles in your murder your family road trip are already, quote unquote, accounted for.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
Yeah. And if we have footage of this traffic stop, do we have like other footage, hotels, businesses?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
Which, like you said, might explain why there wasn't any blood on John's clothes or in his car or anywhere on him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
Isn't hep B usually transmitted through like sexual activity or IV drug use? Like it's kind of rare to see it in a kid, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
And when you say hair, like what are we talking about? Like strands, a clump? Like what are we dealing with here?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
If he was home Saturday and all of this could have happened after she washed the comforter, but before he left, like that doesn't it doesn't feel definitive to me.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
And do we know for sure she even washed the comforter that week, though? Like she's running errands. She has a sick kid. Her husband's going out of town for a conference. Like I could see that being something that doesn't happen this week.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
And like another thing I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is the motive. Like, does one actually exist?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
Murdering your wife and kids doesn't feel like a sexually motivated crime. So where does that play into this theory?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
OK, I thought it was weird that he was driving around going dinner with another woman solo while he's out of town and his wife and kids are back at home. Dude, I was like, I don't know, maybe it's me. I know. That's kind of weird, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
But all of this just has me even more upside down on what to think about this one. There is like a lot of not great stuff here, but like nothing is flashing lights guilty to me. On the other hand, nothing is like totally innocent either. I truly don't know where I stand.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
A halfway decent defense attorney will rip his story to shreds.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
And I'm thinking all of this is happening while the U.S. is still, like, peak satanic panic era.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
But does that mean it's someone they didn't know had contact with him or someone who wasn't being... Like there's still like a hole potentially in that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
Same goes for Rita. And because of double jeopardy laws, John can't be tried again with this information or not.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
Yeah, that feels like... Weird. Like, wouldn't even believe it if it was a movie on the nose. Weird. Why are they dropping his name immediately?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
Like someone is painting the bottom of their shoes like every step or two.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
But maybe they ran out of paint because they used it all on their freaking shoes?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
So when I hear beige paint, I'm going to be honest, it's not like the flashiest color around. You would expect like red or something, right? Yeah, like would this even stand out on their walls?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
Well, I was going to say, maybe they ran out of paint with the wall art, but the prints should be there and be...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
Why even open those? There would be nothing there to find but like cleaning supplies.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: The Feeney Family
Wait, can we, as millennials, just real quick acknowledge that this is a teacher named Mr. Feeney? Oh, my, like, Boy Meets World heart? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So he was off, but he was supposed to be at work. Yes. Then where was he?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Listen, I don't want to take an especially deep dive into the mind of sexual predators, but I have to wonder, like, if he did do something to Richanda, he could have kind of gotten off on it. Like, the knowledge of what he did would kind of carry through and arouse him later, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And are they bringing Kay up at all when he's in the hop seat for Richanda?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
That feels like it could be a motive for John to do something, though. Like, if he knew that she talked and hadn't been listened to the first time or he was afraid that maybe she would again.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And I assume they've talked to all the friends and stuff and we're sure she actually even made it. on the run. Like, nothing happened to her wherever it is they're all staying?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
No, that's not suspicious at all, Ashley. What are you talking about?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
What about Melissa and Sheila's cases? Did they ever bring anything against him there?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
That's honestly what's been in the back of my mind this whole time. Has he ever been linked to any other cases?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
How does it even happen? This is like the best and kind of the only lead that they have.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
While you're on vacation with your husband to like... And then decide mid-run. Right. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So he's giving pretty precise details that, I don't know, maybe only the killer would know.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But John can't be there or with them right when he sees Kay, which he's already admitted to, like, a couple of times. Right. It feels like the only window that really matters here.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Was there ever a polygraph for John then? Because I feel like we would have learned he was a liar like a year earlier.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
And a sleeping bag feels like a really important detail here.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
Which pretty much tells you everything you need to know about how the police viewed her, like, as the person that they were looking for.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
So, okay, I'm kind of getting a little twisted on this. In this time when they find this stuff out about Robert being with Heather, are they still holding the position with her mom that she just walked off on her own?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
Am I the only one who thinks that's maybe like a good thing?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
Because making mistakes or doing things in error, like, we should correct those things. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
But there's like shoe prints on her thigh, shoe prints on her chest.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
Hold up. He's legit still holding on to that? Yes. He did the tox screen. There wasn't a lethal amount of drugs in her system. Yes. It actually can't be an overdose?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
Which, quick question, did they ever go looking for Heather's body after Robert's mom talked to them?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
What else do they want? What else could they possibly need, Ashley?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
But they want someone with like the actual legit title medical examiner to give their official stamped opinion. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
Just to be clear, she was found wrapped in plastic.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
Oh, that's not good news. They're going to be screwed getting any sort of evidence or samples off of her body then.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
Well, and Robert's mom's story, like, mentions two other guys. Like, is it possible that he's, like, working with other people or other people know more about this?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
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Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
Okay, my mind is reeling, but does he at least determine if it's actually bleach on her?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
And was her phone really like out of minutes or disconnected or whatever?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins
OK, but now they've got his full DNA profile on these boxers in Kayla's case.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
So, OK, is a theory that she was in the car, like leaving when they pulled up or that she's already dead in the bathtub?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
I know you said the rag is like question mark, question mark, windshield wiper thing. But the yellow paint, is there yellow paint in the house?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Also, maybe she could have put it there. It's her rag. Like, it could be nothing, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
And did they test any of the stuff around the house? Like, the blood on the pillows, the mucus stains, the hairs on the pencil?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
But we know that the house was getting a lot of work done. There were people in and out all the time. They could be like getting used to that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
I don't know. Well, yeah, I'm thinking of Birdie and like we have like two of Eli's friends who come over like at least once a week and have. Every time. Like since we've had Birdie and like she's still like, wait, who are you?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Was there something else going on that they were paying attention? Like, was there a bunny, literally?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
They have fingerprints, right? Like, they don't need to go off witness statements and polygraphs.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Again, what I imagine is that he... He also, like, passed a poly, has an alibi, something. You'll see.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
And everyone's first instinct right now is to just point fingers at the nearest Black person.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
OK, so obviously we've talked a lot about like looking outside people who come in. But has anyone looked at Charles or maybe even Buddy for that matter, like at all, like just to make sure everybody's versions are lining up? So yes to Charles. OK.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Oh, cool, cool, cool. Perfect. Okay, you're good. Awesome. Taking care of things?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Wait, Charles just takes a three-hour lunch break? Don't you love the 50s? Comes back for an hour. Not even, like a half hour. Yeah, barely. And then is like, I think I've done enough here.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
There's like a lack of connection and intimacy. Yes. Across the relationship in many facets, maybe. Yes. Okay. Yes.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
To, like, really truly support the idea that anything was going on.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Right. They would have to like go in and be like, okay, never mind, just kidding. Let's not reschedule it again. Yes. Okay.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Which to me seems way more likely because if her back was acting up and she fell into the back, like how do the rugs get there? It doesn't get explained in an accident.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Or explain that that's why she's in the bathroom and not coming out.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
But didn't they clear everybody who was working at the house? Yes. Again, they say that, but like... But we don't know how or when or who those people are. They just kind of blanket say it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
So hold up. How long has Buddy been home for? I mean, did he like just come in before his dad got there?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
And, like, also, inconclusive is not wrong. Inconclusive is just, I'm nervous-ish. And he worked at the house.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Yeah, I was like every sentence I'd be like, OK, he's the guy. And then you'd say something like coming out in the rope to make the sandwich.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
The cold water. We know the water was leaving at 3 and not 1.40 when the women saw the car leaving. Like, those are not small things. Those are huge discrepancies.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
It's like one step forward, two steps back every time he says something.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
He wasn't providing any, like, only the killer knew information.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Like, I don't know if it's... I mean, it's not even a boy. It's just like 10-year-old kid, right? Like kind of still oblivious to the world. They're kids.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Okay. The letter says, R.E. Malvina Krutz. The same afternoon on the day of this murder, I was in my car at 49th and Meridian heading west waiting for a light to change when a slim, very dark complexioned man with mustache was locking car north of Meridian on west side of street. He ran like a speed racer south on Meridian just as light was changing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
While crossing street, he made movement toward his cab but seems to toss something toward the west. Some days later, making the same trip, I drove slowly west on 49th as two small boys picked something out of the street on south side of 49th west of Meridian. I heard one say, someone has lost their car keys. I remember another car was parked on west side Meridian about third house down.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Are they the same letter writer? Like, there's so many questions. Are they the same letter writer? Are they just two letters that, like, back each other up? We don't know.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
So he's not even like trying to stick to the original story he told detectives.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
But if you're like not expecting your mom to be home, she said she was going to be gone this afternoon, right? She's like doing your paper route. Maybe she's doing it because she's also running errands.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
He's 10. She made a sandwich. Everything's taken care of. That's lunchtime. I'm talking about when he's home from school. I don't know. I just think that him not noticing these things isn't wild. He's like, okay, looks literally in the room around him. His mom's not there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Or his room's a mess, but his mom's not home to see it. So he doesn't have to do it until she asks him. That's fair.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
And like, I'll just do whatever I want until she forces me to clean it up, whatever.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
It doesn't seem that bonkers, but like, do we know are these hairs on the pencil Malvina's? Like that feels like we can decide that, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Because there's hair stuck to it versus it being like a struggle with the towel rack or whatever.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Like someone maybe used the rugs to, like, drag her into the bathroom, get her into the tub.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Yeah, I would say the rugs underneath her. Like, why are they there if this was an accident?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Well, and, like, I guess, great, we found this towel with blood on it, but it goes back to exactly what we were just talking about, right? Like, when is this happening? How is this happening? What all is happening?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Right. So could the delivery driver hear Melvina like through the door? Was it that close?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Right. Which is going to make narrowing down those fingerprints even more difficult.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Which are very different statements. Yeah. And either way, she didn't want Mildred anywhere around, but like also not helpful.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Malvina Krutz
Okay. They just watched her car. They let her car out of the driveway with someone else driving it. They go around to the back where the door is already open and like waltz inside, plop down and are like, okay, where is she?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Hi, Crime Junkies. Ashley and I are officially on the road, and we had an amazing time at our first few shows. Thank you so much to all of the amazing Crime Junkies we saw last week in Indy, Detroit, and Nashville. If you haven't gotten your tickets for an upcoming Crime Junkie Life Rule number 10 tour stop yet, now is the time.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And in all this time, there are no like really viable suspects.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
The letter says, HPD, if you want to know who killed C. Henry and A. Atkinson, it will cost $100,000. Reply, Hugh Chronicle personal column, Munn 3-12-01 only. A lawyer will be hired to make sure you play straight. Anon. And Hugh Chronicle... Houston Chronicle. Is like the Houston Chronicle and Munn is Monday, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
The man wore a fishnet stocking over his face, black gloves, and a dark shirt and pants that matched, possibly a uniform. He held a long-barreled handgun in his left hand. "'Where's Randy?' he asked, referring to her boyfriend by name. He taunted her, putting the gun to her head and cocking it. He bound her hands behind her back with gray duct tape before taking cash from her purse."
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Then he duct taped her eyes and mouth shut, threw her on the bed, and shoved a bag or pillowcase over her head.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
I mean, to me, it's just as likely that he was a customer at the club.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
I'm sorry. There's no way that all of this is coincidental.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Wait, so that part might be coincidental. But when this guy attacked the first girl, he was looking for her boyfriend.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Calls him out by name. Maybe Cheryl and Andy's attack was about Andy. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Hold up. How old was that security guard that found Andy's car, uniform, military stance?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So when everything with Lake Waco basically unraveled, did anyone go back to see if there could have been a connection?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
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Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
You can also follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So this security guy is, like, what, rummaging through a random car he found? Like, that feels weird to me.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
But how did the security guard miss that? I mean, wasn't he in the car?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
A response like, oh, there are two missing kids in a bloody car.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
When I hear all of that, my mind instantly goes to like... Like the Lake Waco of it all, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So theoretically, it could have just been one guy, but my money is on two.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Did they get any biologics from the autopsies? Like anything that they can get DNA from?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
But it makes you feel like the driver had to have live there or was close to someone who did live there if he like was at the complex like back and forth a couple times like he was there and then he wasn't and then he like you would think but all I know is that according to David police canvassed the complex and that didn't lead them to Marcus or to anyone who knew Marcus
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Yeah, but what about the people who knew the driver? I know we don't know who he is, but like he doesn't live there. But that guy has to have a tie there. To me, it's a chain, right? Like the person in the complex leads you to the driver. The driver leads you to who gave him the car. And like that goes all the way back to Marcus and why he doesn't have his car and where he is.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
I mean, you'd think. So those two prints were the only prints in the car, right? Like, I guess I thought you were saying that those were the only prints that weren't his.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
So Detective Filter... Not like smudged or smeared or incomplete.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
They're kind of like the same car. They definitely look incredibly similar.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Did they arrest anyone else in connection to it? I mean, it was more than one person, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Wait, how old is Charles? I'm wondering if he could have been the one seen driving Marcus's car?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Hold up. What's the motive? Charles got harassed? and then just snapped on Ethan?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
It like factory resets it. Yes. And it loses all the information.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Did anything prompt that move or was it just like kind of growing up, wanting your own space?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
But that could be why he's acting so strange around Marcus's family. He knows they're all going to find out about this and be upset about the drugs.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And I don't know how like churchy they raised him, but I can see that maybe being a reason why he hit it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And that's probably the reason he kept the school thing to himself. Like the disappointment that like not only is he disappointing them, but he's already disappointed them. So it's like one more thing. Right. Had they noticed any changes in Marcus's behavior, like looking back, like knowing or finding out about all this now?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Yeah. Aren't there like two like little marks that are right next to each other on her back that Lou said like look like they could be stun gun marks or something?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
So it would have been like useful timing wise. Something might have been there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
So with the intruder theory, I get the what and the how of the idea. I think it like lines up. It makes sense. There's elements to it that make sense. But I guess that leaves us with like the two major questions left, which is who and why.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
So you gave us two possible whys, but without really landing on one, how do you even get to who?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
But whoa, like... I mean, how did the DA get away with saying that they didn't get an indictment?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Yeah, I remember watching this and it almost being painful to watch. And then watching what happens after it was, like, even worse. And I feel bad empathy for him because, like... He's already going through a lot in his life. And then to be on camera, it changes so much of like who you are, how you react, like what you say. And he didn't like, and keep in mind, he didn't grow up on camera.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
No, he was like sequestered is like the best word I can think of. Like we didn't see Burke.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
A relationship and a bond that like siblings have and you don't necessarily like put the weight in them as a kid.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Yeah, because I'm with you. Like, I don't think he did anything, but there is just so much that my siblings would do that I would do that they knew about that our parents just didn't see. Like, it's as kids, you kind of live in your own world, like below the line of sight of your parents in a certain way.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
This is not the answer that anyone wants to hear, but you have to start all over. You have to.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
So did you ask John why they agreed to do something like this?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
I've always wondered a little if she went, like, off book in that interview. Like, you can kind of tell she's still pretty medicated.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
So were there a lot of inconsistencies in the little that we did get?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Which is why you have a lawyer in the room with you, but you need to go into the room. You need to be there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Yes, but like, which came first, right? Like, it's a very chicken and egg situation. If they talked to the police and the police had cleared them, would there be the tabloid that put them in the center of things? Or are they in the center of things?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
So at this point, it sounds like police are relying on... Other details almost like not just we don't like how the family is acting to support all these suspicions that they have.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
If you're going to hold someone for ransom, you should probably have the ransom note written. Yeah. It's a thought.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
That also doesn't make sense because why would you like hope that there's a notebook and a pen readily available for you to in 20 minutes.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Not $100,000, not $150,000. And split, too, in different bills. And John was like, I mean, they were kind of loaded.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Or even lower, like, a round number of, like, $100,000. Like, the $18—it's the $18 that's so weird.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Well... And the language itself felt like her. If I'm remembering, like, her interviews, right? Like, it's kind of flowery, over the top. Like, they linked words like hence and attache. When I said that, I was like, ooh, that's a word.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
And I would also say that, like, you would be able to tell the difference if you and I wrote, like, the same things. Because we would use completely different words.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Yeah, we've said it a million times, but I mean, never say never, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
So I was never really clear, like, which one of these things was her cause of death, though.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Which all that makes sense, but I still don't, I'm not seeing what came first.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Did they find urine anywhere else in the house? Like if she was laying down and I've seen the pictures of the underwear and the pants, I mean, they're saturated. If she's laying down, empties her bladder that much to just like drench her clothes completely. It should be somewhere.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
The ransom note says, Mr. Ramsey, listen carefully. We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We respect your business, but not the country that it serves. At this time, we have your daughter in our possession. She is safe and unharmed. If you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter. you will withdraw $118,000 from your account.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
$100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills. Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you get home, you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you between 8 and 10 a.m. tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The delivery will be exhausting, so I advise you to be rested.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
I spoke with Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey while Burke continued to sleep. Mrs. Ramsey told me that she had gone into JonBenet's room at about 545 hours to wake her in preparation for a short family trip the family was to take later that day. She found JonBenet's room empty and then discovered the note as she walked down the stairs. She immediately called police.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Okay, so then just go to the... So there's like... There's another section.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
They told me they had spent Christmas night with the redacted and that they arrived home at 2200 hours. Ms. Ramsey said that JonBenet's and Burke's bedrooms are separate and are located on the second floor of the three-story house with the master bedroom on the top floor. JonBenet's bedroom has an access door to the second floor porch, which was locked and undamaged.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
OK, Linda says Officer French told me that when he arrived, he met with Patsy Ramsey, Jean Benet's mother. Patsy was very upset and distraught. It was difficult for Officer French to obtain information from her. Officer French also spoke with John Ramsey, Jean Benet's father.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Officer French learned that the Ramsey family had been at a friend's house on the late afternoon and evening of December 25th. Jean Benet and her brother Burke went to bed shortly after the family returned home. John Ramsey had read to JonBenet after she'd gone to bed and before she went to sleep. JonBenet had last been seen wearing a red turtleneck and white long underwear.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Patsy woke up this morning and discovered the suspected ransom note at the bottom of the spiral staircase. Patsy originally thought that the note may have been left by the housekeeper. Officer French has been told that the Ramsey family had been planning to leave early this morning for Michigan. The Ramsey family has a home in Upper Michigan.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
After Patsy discovered the note, she went to Jean Benet's bedroom. Patsy discovered Jean Benet was missing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
I did ask Patsy a few questions and was able to receive some information. The following is information I received from Patsy. Patsy has gotten up on the morning of December 26th, 1996 and had gone downstairs from her bedroom to the kitchen. Patsy used the back, i.e. west stairway.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
The back stairway consists of a spiral staircase leading from just outside JonBenet's bedroom to the northwest corner of the first floor of the house. At the bottom of the spiral staircase, Patsy discovered a three-page handwritten note. The note had been written on legal pad-sized paper. Patsy said she originally thought the note might have been left by her housekeeper.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
After Patsy looked at the note and read it, she ran to JonBenet's bedroom. JonBenet was missing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
What? What? John said he went to bed at approximately 20 to 30 hours.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence an earlier pickup of your daughter. Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for a proper burial.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
And again, why even talk to CNN in the first place? Yeah. To protect Boulder, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
I didn't. I couldn't read the whole thing. I had just gotten up. We were on our... It was the day after Christmas, and we were going to go visiting, and it was quite early in the morning, and I got dressed and was on my way to the kitchen to make some coffee, and we have a back staircase from the bedroom areas, and I always come down that staircase, and I'm usually the first one down.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
And the note was lying across the three pages across the run of one of the stair treads. And it was kind of dimly lit. It was just very early in the morning. And I started to read it and it was addressed to John. It said, Mr. Ramsey. And it said, we have your daughter. And I, you know, it just wasn't registering. And I may have gotten through another sentence. I can't. We have your daughter.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
And I don't know if I got any further than that. And I immediately ran back upstairs and pushed open her door. And she was not in her bed. And I screamed for John.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you, so I advise you not to provoke them. Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as police, FBI, et cetera, will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
I'm appalled that anyone would think that John or I would be involved in such a hideous, heinous crime. But let me assure that I did not kill Jean Benet. It did not have anything to do with this. I love that child with my whole of my heart and soul. We feel like there are at least two people on the face of this earth that know who did this.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
And that is the killer and someone that that person may have confided in.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
She also talks about screaming for John. And that's new. Didn't she say she called the police immediately? Or even in one version, didn't she say she saw Jean Benet was not in her bed before she even saw the letter? Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
But Patsy goes to bed. Bert goes to bed. John takes JonBenet up, reads to her, puts her to bed. All within like a half an hour.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
You will be scanned for electronic devices, and if any are found, she dies. You can try to deceive us. But be warned that we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics. You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to outsmart us. Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Handle what, though? I don't, I'm not following what's happening.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
That still doesn't answer my question. Like, what was he saying when he was flipping out?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
You and your family are under constant scrutiny, as well as the authorities. Don't try to grow a brain, John. You are not the only fat cat around, so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't underestimate us, John. Use that good Southern common sense of yours. It's up to you now, John. Victory.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Submissive isn't necessarily the right, like exact word, but like the dad husbands.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Yeah, they're handling it and we don't need to worry about it. And so we don't ask any questions.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
And what does John say about this, though? Like, the guy who was actually in the conversation. Who had the conversation. The conversation with you.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
I'm sorry, what is happening and how did I not know any of this?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
You could help by telling us what you were saying to them when you were freaking out. That seems like a really good place to start.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Wait, they'd been talking about the basement discovery? I don't know. And, like, who...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Well, calling all Boulder journalists who gave a card to Fleet White, the crime junkies kind of want to know some things.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Yeah, but, I mean, this literally happened to me yesterday. Mae fell asleep in a car. Justin fully unbuckled her out of her seat, carried her in, laid her on her bed, and she slept for another hour.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
But when does the big size 12 underwear get put on her in all of this?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Right. I was going to say, but there's like a lot of like transcription and using reports as references that might have been happening.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
what always baffles me is how had no one looked in this room this wine cellar like the whole day there were so many people in that house and they were everywhere except for JonBenet's room but this is one of like the great mysteries and it's
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Right. And I think the other thing that sticks with me is I've heard it before that he'd made like a beeline for this wine cellar.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Oh, no. We could see the covers at the grocery store and that was it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
I like I don't know what it's like when we the bye bye birdie when my mom always taped over a part that she thought was too scandalous for us to watch. And we thought it was going to be so bad. It was so much worse in our heads. And we watched it and it was just a dance scene that she had cut. Yeah, that was it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Like 17 different lines saying the exact same thing written slightly different just to back up things.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
And when you say, like, our origin story, like, we were tabloid height when it happened. This is what made us crime junkies.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Okay, that was so much. I edited it down. Yeah, you trimmed this up for clarity. We only got the big parts, the important parts. But I mean, I guess what I'm taking away from it is he's thinking that the police and the DA...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
So there were times when maybe things weren't collected in a timely manner, but it wasn't because the Ramseys were withholding things. It's because things weren't like flowing properly on the law enforcement side.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Which, this is a point that Boulder police gets roasted on, right? Like, people are just all over the house, contaminating the crap out of, like... What is actually a crime scene?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
So I think a lot of people missed this. So basically in a nutshell, Fleet is saying that there's just mad corruption. Yeah. Not so much corruption, but like conflict of interest.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
So a bill was made with the intention of clarifying the law so there was more like transparency in the process for the public, which would basically let them issue certain reports from grand jury proceedings, but still keep other parts of things confidential.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Check. But by the time it reached the system, timing it, like, right after JonBenet's death, and with the help of people providing advisement, consultation, or representation in her case, it was a little different. Different, yeah. Because I know where this is going, I'll cut right to the chase.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
One of the main things that it would allow them to do is say that, like, oh, the jury didn't indict, which means there's no case, my hands are tied, blah, blah, blah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
So basically everyone decided the Ramseys had nothing to do with it because the grand jury didn't indict them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
So like no one bought it. It was like me giving a house to you or something like that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
It almost feels like almost like an executor of a will type situation, like a figurehead for an organization and a foundation. Yeah. or whatnot? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Okay, so this is a total aside, but I just read a book. It's called Tell Me Everything, The Story of a Private Investigation. And it's about this private investigator's assistant who is investigating University of Colorado. And one of the people that she's investigating is someone who is living in the Ramsey house at the time of the investigation, which is like... Wait, what year?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Late 90s, early 2000s. So it's like in this interim period? In this interim period. Okay. Ew, odd. And, like, he's not a person who should be able to necessarily afford a 6,000-square-foot mansion.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Yeah. Weird. Just a thought. Just an aside. Just a weird thing. Do you just like happen to read that book?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Yeah, but I think I'm confused. I thought the Steins lived in Boulder.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
And again, not to reference this book, but the timing is interesting because the scandal that the book was investigating was a sex scandal at the University of Colorado. He's not mentioned, though, right? No. But it's happening at the university, and there's a cover-up, and there's money involved.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Yeah, there was like this grate thing covering the area to get into the window. And there were like officers who said they saw spiderwebs on this grate. They said it had been there for a while. Someone would have messed it up if the grate had been moved to get into the window. Yeah. I never really see anything like to fully refute that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
I think maybe I heard once they said that maybe the webs weren't like as fresh as they thought they were.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
They were more, like, cobwebby spiderwebs. But I don't know what that means.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Right. Versus like the legal pad that was left there, the pen, the paintbrush.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
Things that were sourced in the house, but also left in the house. Left.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
So there's been a profile in CODIS for like 20 years with no hits.