Chris Hayes

That's basically what I think. I kind of agree with that.

That's basically what I think. I kind of agree with that.

Of course it partly is. So that's the first layer, right? But that connects to the next layer, which is the obsession with what is called the mainstream media, the legacy media, all of which is like understandable, but is increasingly a conversation that like a relatively small part of the country is part of. And they're still laser focused on that. And again, I get that.

Of course it partly is. So that's the first layer, right? But that connects to the next layer, which is the obsession with what is called the mainstream media, the legacy media, all of which is like understandable, but is increasingly a conversation that like a relatively small part of the country is part of. And they're still laser focused on that. And again, I get that.

And they're laser focused on it in terms of not making news. Like, I think about this phrase all the time, like not making news as opposed to making news. Making news means getting people's attention. Not making news means not getting people's attention. And the goal of a lot of Democrats always in their communication is to not make news. And Donald Trump's goal is always to make news.

And they're laser focused on it in terms of not making news. Like, I think about this phrase all the time, like not making news as opposed to making news. Making news means getting people's attention. Not making news means not getting people's attention. And the goal of a lot of Democrats always in their communication is to not make news. And Donald Trump's goal is always to make news.

That's my favorite phrase to come out of the election.

That's my favorite phrase to come out of the election.

If you're trying to back it out as a retrofit.

If you're trying to back it out as a retrofit.

And you also have to get the attention of people at the periphery of politics. I mean, how do you get messages to people at the outer periphery? And part of the answer is, You need to draw a lot of attention generally. And it's not like they didn't know this. I mean, the idea of Beyonce, the idea of like using celebrities like, wait, well, these are these are attentional magnets.

And you also have to get the attention of people at the periphery of politics. I mean, how do you get messages to people at the outer periphery? And part of the answer is, You need to draw a lot of attention generally. And it's not like they didn't know this. I mean, the idea of Beyonce, the idea of like using celebrities like, wait, well, these are these are attentional magnets.

They're sort of avatars. But increasingly, it just doesn't work that way anymore.

They're sort of avatars. But increasingly, it just doesn't work that way anymore.

Steve Jobs had this saying that it's not the customer's job to know what they want. And I do think there's a little bit of, like, democratic, like, obsession with numbers and market research that's like, well, what do the numbers say? And part of this is just innovation and improvisation and trying new stuff that hasn't been tried before as opposed to backing out what you think the expectation is.

Steve Jobs had this saying that it's not the customer's job to know what they want. And I do think there's a little bit of, like, democratic, like, obsession with numbers and market research that's like, well, what do the numbers say? And part of this is just innovation and improvisation and trying new stuff that hasn't been tried before as opposed to backing out what you think the expectation is.

And that's really true, I think, with attention entrepreneurship, which is not just to, like, look what does best in the algorithm and not just look at the data, but to try new things. Like, I don't love Joe Rogan's politics, but I... Rogan's a really good podcast host. It's a really good show. I have listened intermittently for years, particularly I used to more than I do now.

And that's really true, I think, with attention entrepreneurship, which is not just to, like, look what does best in the algorithm and not just look at the data, but to try new things. Like, I don't love Joe Rogan's politics, but I... Rogan's a really good podcast host. It's a really good show. I have listened intermittently for years, particularly I used to more than I do now.

You know, I've listened to a Rogan podcast where he does two and a half hours with an astrophysicist. And they're totally fascinating. I mean, part of the problem, too, as I sort of think this through, right... There is an asymmetry about risk. It just is the case that, like, a gaffe for a Democratic politician is going to kind of stick out more and stick more.

You know, I've listened to a Rogan podcast where he does two and a half hours with an astrophysicist. And they're totally fascinating. I mean, part of the problem, too, as I sort of think this through, right... There is an asymmetry about risk. It just is the case that, like, a gaffe for a Democratic politician is going to kind of stick out more and stick more.