Chris Hayes

Well, I mean, I think that, look, involuntary attention, I think, is probably necessary for the survival of species. So in that sense, it's fundamental. And I wouldn't say it's worse. The problem is, so let's say you're reading the book. You've made this volitional decision. And as you're reading the book, the little haptic buzz of a notification in your phone goes off.

Now, you notice that because it's designed to use the deep circuitry of compelled attention to force your attention onto the physical sensation of the phone.

Now, you notice that because it's designed to use the deep circuitry of compelled attention to force your attention onto the physical sensation of the phone.

Now, you notice that because it's designed to use the deep circuitry of compelled attention to force your attention onto the physical sensation of the phone.

That is a perfect example of the one-way ratchet of what I call attention capitalism, is that the more important attention gets and the more that people, corporations and platforms have sort of optimized for it competitively, the more they will try to use the tactics of compelled attention to get our attention. rather than to get the part of us that's volitional attention.

That is a perfect example of the one-way ratchet of what I call attention capitalism, is that the more important attention gets and the more that people, corporations and platforms have sort of optimized for it competitively, the more they will try to use the tactics of compelled attention to get our attention. rather than to get the part of us that's volitional attention.

That is a perfect example of the one-way ratchet of what I call attention capitalism, is that the more important attention gets and the more that people, corporations and platforms have sort of optimized for it competitively, the more they will try to use the tactics of compelled attention to get our attention. rather than to get the part of us that's volitional attention.

Now, of course, you still have human will, and in that moment, you're going to decide, am I going to take my phone out to see what the notification was or not? But that little moment, that little interruption... That's pretty new at scale. I think it's totally new at scale. And it's also just absolutely endemic to modern life.

Now, of course, you still have human will, and in that moment, you're going to decide, am I going to take my phone out to see what the notification was or not? But that little moment, that little interruption... That's pretty new at scale. I think it's totally new at scale. And it's also just absolutely endemic to modern life.

Now, of course, you still have human will, and in that moment, you're going to decide, am I going to take my phone out to see what the notification was or not? But that little moment, that little interruption... That's pretty new at scale. I think it's totally new at scale. And it's also just absolutely endemic to modern life.

It's our entire lives now is that wail of the siren going down the street, the clatter of the drop tray. There's very powerful forces attempting to compel our attention away from where we might want to put it in any moment because that's a kind of hack for them for getting our attention.

It's our entire lives now is that wail of the siren going down the street, the clatter of the drop tray. There's very powerful forces attempting to compel our attention away from where we might want to put it in any moment because that's a kind of hack for them for getting our attention.

It's our entire lives now is that wail of the siren going down the street, the clatter of the drop tray. There's very powerful forces attempting to compel our attention away from where we might want to put it in any moment because that's a kind of hack for them for getting our attention.

Yeah, you're reactive and you're in the you're at your sort of biophysical base. Right. You're the comparison that I use in the book. And I think this might be helpful for people to think this through is how hunger works. So with food, we have these deep biological inheritances where there's just universal deep wiring towards sweets, for instance, or fats because they are extremely calorie dense.

Yeah, you're reactive and you're in the you're at your sort of biophysical base. Right. You're the comparison that I use in the book. And I think this might be helpful for people to think this through is how hunger works. So with food, we have these deep biological inheritances where there's just universal deep wiring towards sweets, for instance, or fats because they are extremely calorie dense.

Yeah, you're reactive and you're in the you're at your sort of biophysical base. Right. You're the comparison that I use in the book. And I think this might be helpful for people to think this through is how hunger works. So with food, we have these deep biological inheritances where there's just universal deep wiring towards sweets, for instance, or fats because they are extremely calorie dense.

You can exploit that at scale as McDonald's has and other food operations. And find that you could basically sell cheeseburgers and salty fries and Coca-Cola all over the world because you're working on that deep biological substrate in people. But it's also the case when you ask, well, what do humans like to eat?

You can exploit that at scale as McDonald's has and other food operations. And find that you could basically sell cheeseburgers and salty fries and Coca-Cola all over the world because you're working on that deep biological substrate in people. But it's also the case when you ask, well, what do humans like to eat?

You can exploit that at scale as McDonald's has and other food operations. And find that you could basically sell cheeseburgers and salty fries and Coca-Cola all over the world because you're working on that deep biological substrate in people. But it's also the case when you ask, well, what do humans like to eat?

It's an impossible thing to answer because the answer is basically everything, right? It's amazing all the different things. And what we see in sort of modern food culture and the food industry is a sort of fascinating kind of battle between these twin forces, right? The kind of...