Chris Johns

Maybe there were others.

I'd be delighted to hear yours.

And inevitably, he talks about Italy.

I've also said for many years, echoing Ganesh's remarks, that Italy really did want to be governed by Brussels rather than itself because Italy was ungovernable.

In the 1950s, for example, it had seven prime ministers.

And of course, that has echoes in the UK today.

So Britain...

Ganesh says, was a well-run country in the 1970s when it joined and was ambivalent about the EU because the EU wasn't well-run domestically.

And each different country, I've mentioned two, had domestic reasons for wanting to cede power to Brussels so that these countries could become better run.

And I think that was part of it.

It wasn't maybe the main part of it, but it was certainly a whole part of what was going on.

You and I have

talked many, many times about the original founding of the EU as a peace project designed to prevent Germany and France going to war every 50 years.

Now, the idea that Britain was a well-run country in the 1970s is an interesting one.

And Ganesh talks about the Rolls-Royce civil service, the fact that the monarchy was...

Well respected, the BBC was a global institution with also huge respect.

I suspect the writers of Yes Minister, a British comedy programme taking the mickey out of British governance, that Rolls-Royce civil service in particular, would disagree with the idea that Britain was well run in the 70s.

And it's certainly growing.

I grew up in the 70s in many ways, if I ever did grow up, Jim.

And it didn't feel like a well-run place to me back then.