Chris Savage

So if you are at like,

four times EBITDA.

So if you have a million of EBITDA, you can have 4 million of debt from there on down, like three, three to one, two to one, one to one.

That's when you're getting into a range that you can like talk to normal banks.

Yeah.

Oh, we were like infinite EBITDA when we started talking.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they had a plan and we like worked with them on this.

Like we built projections and I was like, all right, in 18 months, we're going to have a leverage ratio.

It's going to start at

20x and then it's going to work its way down.

That was one of our covenants.

Can we get our leverage ratio to be in line?

I think it's important to pay attention to those things because those are the boundaries of the incentives for you.

I think SaaS actually can be incredibly powerful

when matched with debt, because if you understand your unit economics with enough depth, like if you understand churn, if you understand expansion, if you understand acquisition, you can actually model out what, like, what should today's revenue be worth in a year?

It makes it much more possible to use debt as a tool.

And in the, like, you know, when we refinanced, we worked.

Yes, we refinanced after a year.