Clare Stephens

But what is well expressed in parts of this doco is that's true, but also it can be very uncomfortable because it comes with no credibility.

And if you've built yourself on credibility, that's an awkward thing.

I loved when he described when he and the Bad Seeds met her and they said, we'd never met anyone in our lives who liked life.

And we were terrified of her.

We were shocked at it.

She comes in probably a bit like you just described.

Yeah.

Like barrel of like, yay.

And they're just like, whoa.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And when he talked about how pop music is a joy machine, like this is the thing is that there was a time in the 90s for sure where pop music was very uncool.

Remember, this is Pete Grunge.

This is Pete Nirvana.

This is Nick Cave with his like blood running down him and whatever.

Like pop music was so uncool.

And what you realise as you uncouple yourself from all the coolness of everything is that the beauty of great pop is that it is a joy machine.

It just feels great.

It is great.

It just makes you.

And I love that even Nick Cave, who is still a god of darkness, even in his elderly years, fully recognises that.