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Cliff Sosin

๐Ÿ‘ค Speaker
646 total appearances

Appearances Over Time

Podcast Appearances

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

And in order to see it turn, what I'm going to do is we work with a third party consulting firm that basically does like analytics, like, you know, web scraping and database, you know, go get credit card data and match it and blah, blah, blah. And so we're like, okay, we're going to just go, we're going to instrument the heck out of this in a way.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

And in order to see it turn, what I'm going to do is we work with a third party consulting firm that basically does like analytics, like, you know, web scraping and database, you know, go get credit card data and match it and blah, blah, blah. And so we're like, okay, we're going to just go, we're going to instrument the heck out of this in a way.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

We already were instrumenting it somewhat, but we're really going to turn our attention to focusing on instrumenting this. And we're going to focus on the things we think we're going to see first when we see the turn. And when we see the turn, we're going to know, and maybe we'll have to pay a little bit more, but that's when we buy the second half of the stock. And that was May.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

We already were instrumenting it somewhat, but we're really going to turn our attention to focusing on instrumenting this. And we're going to focus on the things we think we're going to see first when we see the turn. And when we see the turn, we're going to know, and maybe we'll have to pay a little bit more, but that's when we buy the second half of the stock. And that was May.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

So I bought the first half. And I think it was sort of in the mid-20s was where I ended up getting kind of most of it. And so I bought some in the 80s, some in the mid-20s. And just mentioned like 100 in the 80s and mid-20s. And then we started instrumenting and we started writing. And things just get worse and worse and worse. It's like every marginal data point was worse.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

So I bought the first half. And I think it was sort of in the mid-20s was where I ended up getting kind of most of it. And so I bought some in the 80s, some in the mid-20s. And just mentioned like 100 in the 80s and mid-20s. And then we started instrumenting and we started writing. And things just get worse and worse and worse. It's like every marginal data point was worse.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

I remember the week after Thanksgiving, sales always fall off on Thanksgiving, and then they always come back the week after. It's always a little lower because of seasonality. And it was like sales fell off during Thanksgiving, and then they just didn't.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

I remember the week after Thanksgiving, sales always fall off on Thanksgiving, and then they always come back the week after. It's always a little lower because of seasonality. And it was like sales fell off during Thanksgiving, and then they just didn't.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

And like, you know, you're living this in real time, right? You're just like, what the heck? And so I was really glad I hadn't bought the second half. But at this point we had things pretty well instrumented. And, you know, we had all this rate data, which I hadn't had in the beginning of this process. We had just a lot, like a lot of ways to capture how cars move. There's just a lot.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

And like, you know, you're living this in real time, right? You're just like, what the heck? And so I was really glad I hadn't bought the second half. But at this point we had things pretty well instrumented. And, you know, we had all this rate data, which I hadn't had in the beginning of this process. We had just a lot, like a lot of ways to capture how cars move. There's just a lot.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

So then, you know, the year ends. They put out this poison pill. And... The poison pill basically said that anyone who owns over 5%, which was like me and like two other people, can't buy more stock. And they had very good reason to do this. The reason is they had big NOLs. And there's IRS rules having to do a turnover.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

So then, you know, the year ends. They put out this poison pill. And... The poison pill basically said that anyone who owns over 5%, which was like me and like two other people, can't buy more stock. And they had very good reason to do this. The reason is they had big NOLs. And there's IRS rules having to do a turnover.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

And if there'd be too much turnover amongst the 5% holders, then they would have destroyed the value of those NOLs. the way they repriced it. If a certain amount of turnover happens, they repriced the NOLs based on your market cap. So the market cap was super low, and the NOLs could turnover, and there'd been a bunch of turnovers, so there was a risk they were gonna cross some threshold.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

And if there'd be too much turnover amongst the 5% holders, then they would have destroyed the value of those NOLs. the way they repriced it. If a certain amount of turnover happens, they repriced the NOLs based on your market cap. So the market cap was super low, and the NOLs could turnover, and there'd been a bunch of turnovers, so there was a risk they were gonna cross some threshold.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

And so they put this poison pill in, which made all the sense in the world for them, but it was not particularly helpful for me. But, you know, to be honest, my initial reaction was like, well, that's annoying. But I wasn't planning to buy any right now anyway. Right.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

And so they put this poison pill in, which made all the sense in the world for them, but it was not particularly helpful for me. But, you know, to be honest, my initial reaction was like, well, that's annoying. But I wasn't planning to buy any right now anyway. Right.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

But then as fate would have it, you know, six weeks, eight weeks later, I'm looking at all of my data and like it's all green shoots. And I'm like, darn. That wasn't what I said. It was a different word. And so I tried to reach out to see if they could make an exception. But, of course, you know, they can't, all that stuff. So we ended up not being able to buy anymore.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

But then as fate would have it, you know, six weeks, eight weeks later, I'm looking at all of my data and like it's all green shoots. And I'm like, darn. That wasn't what I said. It was a different word. And so I tried to reach out to see if they could make an exception. But, of course, you know, they can't, all that stuff. So we ended up not being able to buy anymore.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

Now, I should say when I made the decision to buy half now and half later, I promised myself that I wouldn't beat myself up. I said, listen, Cliff, you will be a happy, successful person if you write about this, whether you buy this other half or not. So it's all good. And so I'm still telling myself that.

Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
Cliff Sosin - Investing in Carvana - [Invest Like the Best, EP.421]

Now, I should say when I made the decision to buy half now and half later, I promised myself that I wouldn't beat myself up. I said, listen, Cliff, you will be a happy, successful person if you write about this, whether you buy this other half or not. So it's all good. And so I'm still telling myself that.