Dan Heath

And we never make our way upstream to try to tackle the systems and the forces that are causing the problems in the first place.

It's incredibly... complicated to solve problems upstream. I'll give you a simple example. I had a conversation with a deputy police chief about a decade ago, and he had this thought experiment where he said, imagine two police officers. And one of those police officers goes downtown where there's a very chaotic intersection. It's a place where cars have collisions a lot of times.

It's incredibly... complicated to solve problems upstream. I'll give you a simple example. I had a conversation with a deputy police chief about a decade ago, and he had this thought experiment where he said, imagine two police officers. And one of those police officers goes downtown where there's a very chaotic intersection. It's a place where cars have collisions a lot of times.

It's incredibly... complicated to solve problems upstream. I'll give you a simple example. I had a conversation with a deputy police chief about a decade ago, and he had this thought experiment where he said, imagine two police officers. And one of those police officers goes downtown where there's a very chaotic intersection. It's a place where cars have collisions a lot of times.

And the officer just kind of stations herself visibly in the intersection. And because she's there and drivers see her, they They slow down, they get a little bit more cautious and accidents are prevented. And then he says, imagine a second officer that goes to a different part of downtown where there is a prohibited right turn. Um, and she stations herself around the corner.

And the officer just kind of stations herself visibly in the intersection. And because she's there and drivers see her, they They slow down, they get a little bit more cautious and accidents are prevented. And then he says, imagine a second officer that goes to a different part of downtown where there is a prohibited right turn. Um, and she stations herself around the corner.

And the officer just kind of stations herself visibly in the intersection. And because she's there and drivers see her, they They slow down, they get a little bit more cautious and accidents are prevented. And then he says, imagine a second officer that goes to a different part of downtown where there is a prohibited right turn. Um, and she stations herself around the corner.

And when people make that illegal right turn, she jumps out and naps them and gives them a ticket. And he says, if you think about these two officers, which one is doing more to protect the public safety? And he says, indisputably, it's the first one. She's preventing crashes. She might be preventing injuries or deaths. But if you ask a different question, which of these officers gets rewarded?

And when people make that illegal right turn, she jumps out and naps them and gives them a ticket. And he says, if you think about these two officers, which one is doing more to protect the public safety? And he says, indisputably, it's the first one. She's preventing crashes. She might be preventing injuries or deaths. But if you ask a different question, which of these officers gets rewarded?

And when people make that illegal right turn, she jumps out and naps them and gives them a ticket. And he says, if you think about these two officers, which one is doing more to protect the public safety? And he says, indisputably, it's the first one. She's preventing crashes. She might be preventing injuries or deaths. But if you ask a different question, which of these officers gets rewarded?

Which of them gets praised? Which of them gets promoted? It's the second officer because she comes back with this stack full of tickets that show what a good job she's done. And meanwhile, that first officer, how does she prove she did anything? You think about there was a guy commuting downtown that morning who crossed through this intersection.

Which of them gets praised? Which of them gets promoted? It's the second officer because she comes back with this stack full of tickets that show what a good job she's done. And meanwhile, that first officer, how does she prove she did anything? You think about there was a guy commuting downtown that morning who crossed through this intersection.

Which of them gets praised? Which of them gets promoted? It's the second officer because she comes back with this stack full of tickets that show what a good job she's done. And meanwhile, that first officer, how does she prove she did anything? You think about there was a guy commuting downtown that morning who crossed through this intersection.

And in an alternate reality where the police officer hadn't been there, he would have been in a car crash, possibly fatal. His life was saved by virtue of the officer being there that morning. He'll never know it, nor will the officer ever know that she saved him in particular. And so there's a kind of maddening ambiguity about upstream efforts. that I think is interesting.

And in an alternate reality where the police officer hadn't been there, he would have been in a car crash, possibly fatal. His life was saved by virtue of the officer being there that morning. He'll never know it, nor will the officer ever know that she saved him in particular. And so there's a kind of maddening ambiguity about upstream efforts. that I think is interesting.

And in an alternate reality where the police officer hadn't been there, he would have been in a car crash, possibly fatal. His life was saved by virtue of the officer being there that morning. He'll never know it, nor will the officer ever know that she saved him in particular. And so there's a kind of maddening ambiguity about upstream efforts. that I think is interesting.

It's like even as you and I could probably say, well, of course you want to go upstream and keep the kids from being thrown in the river. What I wanted to show in the book was basically two things. Number one, there are lots of obstacles to getting upstream.

It's like even as you and I could probably say, well, of course you want to go upstream and keep the kids from being thrown in the river. What I wanted to show in the book was basically two things. Number one, there are lots of obstacles to getting upstream.

It's like even as you and I could probably say, well, of course you want to go upstream and keep the kids from being thrown in the river. What I wanted to show in the book was basically two things. Number one, there are lots of obstacles to getting upstream.

And number two, despite the presence of those obstacles, we've got to try because that's the only recipe for permanently improving systems in our lives and our work and in our communities.