Daniel Immerwahr

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And if I'm Russia, well, I've already exercised my quote-unquote right to invade Ukraine for historical reasons.

And now you're going to tell me to end the war before I want to?

Why should I do that?

That's right.

And on and on and on.

And at the same time, when it comes to Greenland, the desire to take Greenland, which Trump is threatening to do, which Stephen Miller is threatening to do, although Marco Rubio says, well, no, maybe we'll buy it.

is that you crack up NATO.

Yeah.

That you're, in essence, invading a NATO territory.

Yeah, yeah.

Something that Trump seems very willing to do.

I'm sure that he's surrounded by people.

He has been for years, been surrounded by people who tell him that there's a cost to breaking up NATO.

Trump has very little patience for NATO.

And what tradition does that come out of?

I mean, so we sometimes call that isolationism.

I don't think that was ever a good word for it then.

It was a sort of pejorative word by supporters of liberal international order for their opponents.

And sometimes you'll see people still call Trump that.