Daniel Immerwahr

Is this someone who the world would be better off if this person weren't in power?

And I think the answer is sure.

But then there's another question.

What's an example of that?

Okay, so I mean, I think with Maduro, you know, stolen election, wildly unpopular, I think there's a great argument to be made that Venezuela in the abstract is better off without him being in power.

And I think a lot of Venezuelans feel that way.

And you can make a longer list and it would include Saddam Hussein, etc.

But the problem is you cannot just think of this as...

a sort of deus ex machina operation where one person is sort of taken out of power, you actually have to think about what happens when the United States intervenes.

And then any number of downstream effects ensue.

And there it's a lot harder to make the case that U.S.

intervention has been good for the country.

I mean, by and large, we have studies of this, the effect of the United States intervening in a country makes it more likely to have a coup or,

to go to war with the United States or to clash with the United States or to start having massacres within its borders.

It tends not to be good for the countries who get intervened in.

So one thing to keep in mind, because we keep thinking, journalists keep going for the Panama example, is to think about what happens in Panama.

after Noriega, who was wildly unpopular, is taken into custody.

And there is an ongoing political crisis in Panama because the new government, the new head of state is sworn in on a U.S.

military base and then has a huge legitimacy crisis.

And the story of post-Noriega Panama is not a happy story.