Dave Davies

All right, let's take another break here, then we'll talk some more. We are speaking with Clay Risen. He is a reporter and editor for The New York Times and the author of eight books. His latest is Red Scare, Blacklists, McCarthyism, and the Making of Modern America. He'll be back to talk more after this short break. I'm Dave Davies, and this is Fresh Air.

All right, let's take another break here, then we'll talk some more. We are speaking with Clay Risen. He is a reporter and editor for The New York Times and the author of eight books. His latest is Red Scare, Blacklists, McCarthyism, and the Making of Modern America. He'll be back to talk more after this short break. I'm Dave Davies, and this is Fresh Air.

Going back to Hollywood for a moment, there was never a blacklist exactly as you say. But as close as it came was a book called Red Channels, a report of communist influence on radio and television produced by something called the American Business Consultants. Who were they? What did they do with this?

Going back to Hollywood for a moment, there was never a blacklist exactly as you say. But as close as it came was a book called Red Channels, a report of communist influence on radio and television produced by something called the American Business Consultants. Who were they? What did they do with this?

Going back to Hollywood for a moment, there was never a blacklist exactly as you say. But as close as it came was a book called Red Channels, a report of communist influence on radio and television produced by something called the American Business Consultants. Who were they? What did they do with this?

Makes you think of social media today. It does. Somebody sees an opportunity. Yeah, let's push this farther.

Makes you think of social media today. It does. Somebody sees an opportunity. Yeah, let's push this farther.

Makes you think of social media today. It does. Somebody sees an opportunity. Yeah, let's push this farther.

We haven't talked about Joe McCarthy. His story is better known than some of the others that we've talked about. But he was certainly the shining knight of the anti-communist crusade.

We haven't talked about Joe McCarthy. His story is better known than some of the others that we've talked about. But he was certainly the shining knight of the anti-communist crusade.

We haven't talked about Joe McCarthy. His story is better known than some of the others that we've talked about. But he was certainly the shining knight of the anti-communist crusade.

A senator from Wisconsin who made many speeches beginning in 1950 claiming to have lists of communists in the State Department or the Defense Department or whatever, but never really seemed to come up with much credible evidence. That run lasted until about 1954 when he was embarrassed in a in a really dramatic Senate hearing and was then censured by his colleagues at the Senate.

A senator from Wisconsin who made many speeches beginning in 1950 claiming to have lists of communists in the State Department or the Defense Department or whatever, but never really seemed to come up with much credible evidence. That run lasted until about 1954 when he was embarrassed in a in a really dramatic Senate hearing and was then censured by his colleagues at the Senate.

A senator from Wisconsin who made many speeches beginning in 1950 claiming to have lists of communists in the State Department or the Defense Department or whatever, but never really seemed to come up with much credible evidence. That run lasted until about 1954 when he was embarrassed in a in a really dramatic Senate hearing and was then censured by his colleagues at the Senate.

It struck me when I read, particularly the way he interacted with Republicans, that this in some ways reminds me of Donald Trump, not completely, but the firing from the hip with accusations that he couldn't prove and the fact that Republicans, a lot of Republicans in Congress didn't particularly respect him, didn't think he was credible, but wouldn't challenge him, right?

It struck me when I read, particularly the way he interacted with Republicans, that this in some ways reminds me of Donald Trump, not completely, but the firing from the hip with accusations that he couldn't prove and the fact that Republicans, a lot of Republicans in Congress didn't particularly respect him, didn't think he was credible, but wouldn't challenge him, right?

It struck me when I read, particularly the way he interacted with Republicans, that this in some ways reminds me of Donald Trump, not completely, but the firing from the hip with accusations that he couldn't prove and the fact that Republicans, a lot of Republicans in Congress didn't particularly respect him, didn't think he was credible, but wouldn't challenge him, right?

It was also striking that there would be hearings in which – in some cases, the chair of the hearings thought, OK, we're going to get McCarthy on the record here and prove that he doesn't know what he's talking about. So he would make some charges and then witnesses would come in who would completely debunk the charges that he had made.

It was also striking that there would be hearings in which – in some cases, the chair of the hearings thought, OK, we're going to get McCarthy on the record here and prove that he doesn't know what he's talking about. So he would make some charges and then witnesses would come in who would completely debunk the charges that he had made.

It was also striking that there would be hearings in which – in some cases, the chair of the hearings thought, OK, we're going to get McCarthy on the record here and prove that he doesn't know what he's talking about. So he would make some charges and then witnesses would come in who would completely debunk the charges that he had made.