Dave Rosenthal

Any thoughts, Jared? Where are you at with this? I guess I'm just still confused. Not because you're not doing a good job.

Any thoughts, Jared? Where are you at with this? I guess I'm just still confused. Not because you're not doing a good job.

It's a lot of information. It's a lot of information. And maybe I do need a diagram, perhaps. Yes. Because I'm jumping kind of from noun to noun. I can put a diagram in your show notes. Yeah, that would probably be helpful.

It's a lot of information. It's a lot of information. And maybe I do need a diagram, perhaps. Yes. Because I'm jumping kind of from noun to noun. I can put a diagram in your show notes. Yeah, that would probably be helpful.

Yes. Where are the open source lines drawn across these distributions, like Fedora, CentOS Stream?

Yes. Where are the open source lines drawn across these distributions, like Fedora, CentOS Stream?

I want to hear about the future, man. Yeah. Juicy. Juicy future stuff. Well, real quick before that, how does Meta get their support when their CentOS stream doesn't do what it needs to do? Like, what do they do?

I want to hear about the future, man. Yeah. Juicy. Juicy future stuff. Well, real quick before that, how does Meta get their support when their CentOS stream doesn't do what it needs to do? Like, what do they do?

Max Howell, creator of Homebrew, creator of Tea Protocol. Did I cover all the gamut, or is there more?

Max Howell, creator of Homebrew, creator of Tea Protocol. Did I cover all the gamut, or is there more?

There you go. I do like to hit on what people care about. Now, I think... The last time you and I crossed paths was some sort of announcement around T, I think. And maybe that was TXCL or something. There's more to it. It's been a while. But I remember you put something out. I covered it on Change Dog News. And I wrote something about it, like, I feel like they're trying to boil the ocean.

There you go. I do like to hit on what people care about. Now, I think... The last time you and I crossed paths was some sort of announcement around T, I think. And maybe that was TXCL or something. There's more to it. It's been a while. But I remember you put something out. I covered it on Change Dog News. And I wrote something about it, like, I feel like they're trying to boil the ocean.

I don't know what I said. Oh, yeah, yeah. And that affected your game plans by some way, right?

I don't know what I said. Oh, yeah, yeah. And that affected your game plans by some way, right?

Carl George. Go ahead, Jared. You got one teed up. I was just trying to get his name on the record here, just in case he says something. He might run away.

Carl George. Go ahead, Jared. You got one teed up. I was just trying to get his name on the record here, just in case he says something. He might run away.

Right. The people beneath the people beneath the people, right? Like the dependency of the dependency and letting that value chain trickle down or trickle up, whatever direction you're looking at it from. So how does that work then?

Right. The people beneath the people beneath the people, right? Like the dependency of the dependency and letting that value chain trickle down or trickle up, whatever direction you're looking at it from. So how does that work then?

Right. Because if they received a bunch of token for their package getting popular and they went to go sell it and they were just dumping on the market and the demand wasn't there, then the price would crash and you'd have your typical peaks and valleys of the crypto sphere. So you're trying to stabilize the coin, basically? Or what's the tokenomics?

Right. Because if they received a bunch of token for their package getting popular and they went to go sell it and they were just dumping on the market and the demand wasn't there, then the price would crash and you'd have your typical peaks and valleys of the crypto sphere. So you're trying to stabilize the coin, basically? Or what's the tokenomics?

You're trying to stabilize the value of the token?

You're trying to stabilize the value of the token?

Gotcha.

Gotcha.

Yeah, there's been some spammers spamming.

Yeah, there's been some spammers spamming.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, sometimes you learn as you go. I remember that happening. I don't remember what my comment was at the time, but once I saw it, I was like, yeah, this seems like a natural progression. So you live and learn, right? Live and learn. And it was still early, so that's good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, sometimes you learn as you go. I remember that happening. I don't remember what my comment was at the time, but once I saw it, I was like, yeah, this seems like a natural progression. So you live and learn, right? Live and learn. And it was still early, so that's good.

Cool.

Cool.

So what would, so say there's a piece of software that's signed up for the T protocol, and so I can use T to execute it, right? Am I then required to also buy into the, like to give back value, or is it still I can just use that without doing it if I want to? Like it'll lock you in?

So what would, so say there's a piece of software that's signed up for the T protocol, and so I can use T to execute it, right? Am I then required to also buy into the, like to give back value, or is it still I can just use that without doing it if I want to? Like it'll lock you in?

Now, inside of the T protocol, can I place specific bets or buy into specific packages?

Now, inside of the T protocol, can I place specific bets or buy into specific packages?

So let's say I know my buddy Adam is about to release a new NPM package, a JavaScript thing. It's going to take the world by storm. I could stake his package when it first comes out, and as that package gains in usage, I would benefit from that? Is that how it works?

So let's say I know my buddy Adam is about to release a new NPM package, a JavaScript thing. It's going to take the world by storm. I could stake his package when it first comes out, and as that package gains in usage, I would benefit from that? Is that how it works?

Plus I can do it on my own packages, right?

Plus I can do it on my own packages, right?

When are we going to see?

When are we going to see?

I think I appreciate people trying new stuff. I think there's a large number of developers who are just so anti-crypto that it's going to be a stumbling block or something you'll have to overcome. Now, if it starts to work and work well and it's on Ethereum, you said, so that's proof of stake, right?

I think I appreciate people trying new stuff. I think there's a large number of developers who are just so anti-crypto that it's going to be a stumbling block or something you'll have to overcome. Now, if it starts to work and work well and it's on Ethereum, you said, so that's proof of stake, right?

So it's not just it's not the proof of work like Bitcoin, which a lot of people have problem with energy draw. So it doesn't have that particular problem. Maybe you can overcome some of the anti-crypto stance of the developer community at large. Is that fair to say? I think so.

So it's not just it's not the proof of work like Bitcoin, which a lot of people have problem with energy draw. So it doesn't have that particular problem. Maybe you can overcome some of the anti-crypto stance of the developer community at large. Is that fair to say? I think so.

I've been always more on the fence because I think there's potentially cool and interesting new things you can do that you couldn't do before. And I'm waiting to see them, kind of where I've been. And so maybe this is one where we say, here's a cool use of crypto that actually... does what it's supposed to do and brings value and all that. I hope it works out.

I've been always more on the fence because I think there's potentially cool and interesting new things you can do that you couldn't do before. And I'm waiting to see them, kind of where I've been. And so maybe this is one where we say, here's a cool use of crypto that actually... does what it's supposed to do and brings value and all that. I hope it works out.

Anti-crypto sentiment.

Anti-crypto sentiment.

Yeah, I hope it's because it doesn't, I mean, I hope it works out, A. But B, if it fails, I hope it's because it just, the idea fails, not because it's haters.

Yeah, I hope it's because it doesn't, I mean, I hope it works out, A. But B, if it fails, I hope it's because it just, the idea fails, not because it's haters.

Well, they would have to do a dependency graph against all projects everywhere, right? True. Versus the ones that are registered.

Well, they would have to do a dependency graph against all projects everywhere, right? True. Versus the ones that are registered.

Interesting. So is this limited to libraries then?

Interesting. So is this limited to libraries then?

Yeah, that would be cool, because right now it would be limited by the dependency graph, so you need to have dependencies. Yeah. So you can't be a command line tool or an application or these other open source projects.

Yeah, that would be cool, because right now it would be limited by the dependency graph, so you need to have dependencies. Yeah. So you can't be a command line tool or an application or these other open source projects.

But it wouldn't track your actual usage, right?

But it wouldn't track your actual usage, right?

Like, if Homebrew gets more used, I know it's not in there, but if you imaginarily covered it, it would be based on usage, right?

Like, if Homebrew gets more used, I know it's not in there, but if you imaginarily covered it, it would be based on usage, right?

Okay. So certainly it's going to be on Coinbase, but he hasn't said where you can buy this token.

Okay. So certainly it's going to be on Coinbase, but he hasn't said where you can buy this token.

I'll tell you after the podcast. Well, Max, best of luck.

I'll tell you after the podcast. Well, Max, best of luck.

A lot of hindsight. Well, hopefully some foresight. I'm excited to see what happens when you launch. So, launch.

A lot of hindsight. Well, hopefully some foresight. I'm excited to see what happens when you launch. So, launch.

So you're not idealist either?

So you're not idealist either?

So two inputs. One being money and the other being... The blog post. Blog post. Annual blog post. And what do they get out of it? What do they get? JSON.

So two inputs. One being money and the other being... The blog post. Blog post. Annual blog post. And what do they get out of it? What do they get? JSON.

Always JSON. Yes, man.

Always JSON. Yes, man.

All right. Tell me more.

All right. Tell me more.

I'm on the fence still yet. I think that, I guess, if you get the company, if you actually, if it becomes a thing.

I'm on the fence still yet. I think that, I guess, if you get the company, if you actually, if it becomes a thing.

Right? So it's kind of a... It's not really a thing yet. You're trying to make it a thing. If it becomes a thing, then I get a thing. But in the meantime, if nobody cares about it, then I don't care about it. Just thinking as a guy who's running a company. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right? So it's kind of a... It's not really a thing yet. You're trying to make it a thing. If it becomes a thing, then I get a thing. But in the meantime, if nobody cares about it, then I don't care about it. Just thinking as a guy who's running a company. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like, well, if I don't currently care about supporting my dependencies because of all the reasons why I should, instead I'm going to do it because the pledge exists and I want to look good. I don't know if I'm sold right now because it's brand new, right? And you got a handful of companies doing it.

It's like, well, if I don't currently care about supporting my dependencies because of all the reasons why I should, instead I'm going to do it because the pledge exists and I want to look good. I don't know if I'm sold right now because it's brand new, right? And you got a handful of companies doing it.

So what?

So what?

Yeah.

Yeah.

What's on the menu?

What's on the menu?

Yeah, I understand. That's the part you're trying to drill down on.

Yeah, I understand. That's the part you're trying to drill down on.

Oh, nice. We used that somewhere. You said that? I've said it a few times over the years. I said it on Change Dog News, and you picked it up?

Oh, nice. We used that somewhere. You said that? I've said it a few times over the years. I said it on Change Dog News, and you picked it up?

That's on my copywriting there, Adam. Putting your money where your source is. Yeah. Yeah.

That's on my copywriting there, Adam. Putting your money where your source is. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I will.

Yeah, I will.

Now you've bellied up to the buffet. You've had your meal.

Now you've bellied up to the buffet. You've had your meal.

Now it's time to pay the piper.

Now it's time to pay the piper.

This is your baby.

This is your baby.

But you're carrying the torch.

But you're carrying the torch.

Fair enough. Fair enough.

Fair enough. Fair enough.

All right. Well, I mean.

All right. Well, I mean.

Keep an eye on it. Yeah. I'm excited to see what happens. 225 is definitely a move. Yeah. That's a move. If you went 2 to 4, I'd be like, meh. 2 to 25 is legit. 24 is a... No, if you went from 2 to 4... I was like, 2 to 24, I'm like, what's wrong with the 1?

Keep an eye on it. Yeah. I'm excited to see what happens. 225 is definitely a move. Yeah. That's a move. If you went 2 to 4, I'd be like, meh. 2 to 25 is legit. 24 is a... No, if you went from 2 to 4... I was like, 2 to 24, I'm like, what's wrong with the 1?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they give a JSON. They don't get a JSON. That's just more given. Yeah. But they become part of, I mean, you're going to, like, report that or, I mean, somehow that thing. You should pull it together to a master JSON file.

So they give a JSON. They don't get a JSON. That's just more given. Yeah. But they become part of, I mean, you're going to, like, report that or, I mean, somehow that thing. You should pull it together to a master JSON file.

You're currently the biggest one?

You're currently the biggest one?

You want a lot of fish, but you want some big fish.

You want a lot of fish, but you want some big fish.

This is one of the primary reasons why Python's reputation is being serviceable in terms of speed, but for certain workloads, certain things, it's too slow, right? Because of the GIL. This is one of the reasons why people will say, eh, I might pick something else because of the GIL. Fair or not fair?

This is one of the primary reasons why Python's reputation is being serviceable in terms of speed, but for certain workloads, certain things, it's too slow, right? Because of the GIL. This is one of the reasons why people will say, eh, I might pick something else because of the GIL. Fair or not fair?

Over 3 million apps have launched on Fly, including ours. And you can too, in less than five minutes, learn how at Fly.io. Okay, free threaded Python on the changelog. Let's do this.

Over 3 million apps have launched on Fly, including ours. And you can too, in less than five minutes, learn how at Fly.io. Okay, free threaded Python on the changelog. Let's do this.

What up, Python nerds? I'm Jared, and you are listening to The Change Log, where each and every week we sit down with the hackers, the leaders, and the innovators of the software world to pick their brain, to learn from their mistakes, to get inspired by their accomplishments, and to have a lot of fun along the way.

What up, Python nerds? I'm Jared, and you are listening to The Change Log, where each and every week we sit down with the hackers, the leaders, and the innovators of the software world to pick their brain, to learn from their mistakes, to get inspired by their accomplishments, and to have a lot of fun along the way.

When we first launched the ability to collect tracing data, we were really emphasizing the performance aspect of that, the kind of application performance monitoring aspect, you know, because you have these things that are spans that measure how long something takes.

When we first launched the ability to collect tracing data, we were really emphasizing the performance aspect of that, the kind of application performance monitoring aspect, you know, because you have these things that are spans that measure how long something takes.

And so the natural thing is to try to graph their durations and think about their durations and, you know, warn somebody if the durations are getting too long. But what we've realized is that the performance stuff ends up being just a bunch of gauges to look at. And it's not super actionable, right?

And so the natural thing is to try to graph their durations and think about their durations and, you know, warn somebody if the durations are getting too long. But what we've realized is that the performance stuff ends up being just a bunch of gauges to look at. And it's not super actionable, right?

So if you have slower single-threaded performance, you have loss of features in terms of it being more complexity, potentially, because your loss of a single lock, now you need fine-grained locks and all kinds of other things you can do, which is problematic. And a huge lift by many developers over how long you guys have been working on this?

So if you have slower single-threaded performance, you have loss of features in terms of it being more complexity, potentially, because your loss of a single lock, now you need fine-grained locks and all kinds of other things you can do, which is problematic. And a huge lift by many developers over how long you guys have been working on this?

Many years in the making. Yes. Okay, add all those together. Worth it? Well, we'll see.

Many years in the making. Yes. Okay, add all those together. Worth it? Well, we'll see.

Somebody will build it.

Somebody will build it.

It's not like a flag that you give when you run Python. It's a separate executable.

It's not like a flag that you give when you run Python. It's a separate executable.

Sentry is all about this notion of debug ability and actually making it easier to fix the problem, not just sort of giving you more gauges. A lot of what we're trying to do now is focus a little bit less on the sort of just the performance monitoring side of things and turn tracing into a tool that actually aids the debug ability of problems.

Sentry is all about this notion of debug ability and actually making it easier to fix the problem, not just sort of giving you more gauges. A lot of what we're trying to do now is focus a little bit less on the sort of just the performance monitoring side of things and turn tracing into a tool that actually aids the debug ability of problems.

Right. And it's out there in Release Canada. It's probably out there as we speak, at least in the official 3.13 experimental, as you guys pointed out. Are there early indicators? Are there people who have been just pining for this and they've already tried it in the RC and are saying, wow, we're seeing this or...

Right. And it's out there in Release Canada. It's probably out there as we speak, at least in the official 3.13 experimental, as you guys pointed out. Are there early indicators? Are there people who have been just pining for this and they've already tried it in the RC and are saying, wow, we're seeing this or...

Today I'm joined by Pablo Galindo and Lucas Longa from Core.py, a podcast all about Python internals because these two work on Python internals. Welcome to the show guys.

Today I'm joined by Pablo Galindo and Lucas Longa from Core.py, a podcast all about Python internals because these two work on Python internals. Welcome to the show guys.

So for your average programmer out there with their average Python app, whether it be a web app or a desktop app or whatever, should they be hopping on this experimental and giving it a try? Or is it a thing where it's like, if you don't know that your code is thread safe, it's probably not? Or is it the other way around? What's the water feel like? Is it warm? Are there alligators in there?

So for your average programmer out there with their average Python app, whether it be a web app or a desktop app or whatever, should they be hopping on this experimental and giving it a try? Or is it a thing where it's like, if you don't know that your code is thread safe, it's probably not? Or is it the other way around? What's the water feel like? Is it warm? Are there alligators in there?

Now your podcast, is it usually just the two of you talking to each other or do you have a third party ever?

Now your podcast, is it usually just the two of you talking to each other or do you have a third party ever?

That makes a lot of sense. Somebody should start a list of libraries which have taken that initiative.

That makes a lot of sense. Somebody should start a list of libraries which have taken that initiative.

Very cool. Well, it's definitely exciting times. I'm even excited. I don't use Python on the regular, but I think that's early indicators of something that's potentially a huge success. So congrats to you guys and the whole team for the effort, at least, to

Very cool. Well, it's definitely exciting times. I'm even excited. I don't use Python on the regular, but I think that's early indicators of something that's potentially a huge success. So congrats to you guys and the whole team for the effort, at least, to

make it no longer theoretical and make it an actual piece of software, bleeding edge piece of software that's going to produce even some papers. Should we move on to the JIT? Lucas, you mentioned the JIT is another feature of 3.13. Is there more to say about the GIL? I'm assuming these things will probably interact as topics.

make it no longer theoretical and make it an actual piece of software, bleeding edge piece of software that's going to produce even some papers. Should we move on to the JIT? Lucas, you mentioned the JIT is another feature of 3.13. Is there more to say about the GIL? I'm assuming these things will probably interact as topics.

Now, we've been asked to start a Python podcast a few times, as well as an Elixir podcast and a Rust podcast. And we don't usually feel like we have anything to add to the conversation, except when it came to Python, I remember telling our friend Brett Cannon, I said, you guys should have a podcast where it's like the people who work on Python talking about Python, not...

Now, we've been asked to start a Python podcast a few times, as well as an Elixir podcast and a Rust podcast. And we don't usually feel like we have anything to add to the conversation, except when it came to Python, I remember telling our friend Brett Cannon, I said, you guys should have a podcast where it's like the people who work on Python talking about Python, not...

randos like I would be or people on the, you know, it's a huge community, but there's no voice that is like coming from the core team. And so I think it's pretty cool. When did you guys start this and what was the big idea?

randos like I would be or people on the, you know, it's a huge community, but there's no voice that is like coming from the core team. And so I think it's pretty cool. When did you guys start this and what was the big idea?

Pablo, anything to add?

Pablo, anything to add?

If we can move this conversation up a level for a moment, do you guys like this one-year release cadence? It seems like it has its drawbacks.

If we can move this conversation up a level for a moment, do you guys like this one-year release cadence? It seems like it has its drawbacks.

Who did? You did this?

Who did? You did this?

On this episode, I'm joined by the co-hosts of the Core.py podcast, Pablo Galindo and Lukas Langa, whose name I will pronounce Lukas from here on out because it's just a lot easier for me. On Core.py, they talk about Python internals because they work on Python internals. And today we're talking about Python 3.13, which is right around the corner.

On this episode, I'm joined by the co-hosts of the Core.py podcast, Pablo Galindo and Lukas Langa, whose name I will pronounce Lukas from here on out because it's just a lot easier for me. On Core.py, they talk about Python internals because they work on Python internals. And today we're talking about Python 3.13, which is right around the corner.

That was more the angle I was coming from. When the train leaves the station once a year, you better get your stuff on it, whether it's ready or not. And I appreciate, I didn't know the history of where it came from. So I think this is definitely progress and improvement and predictability. You know, each time of year it's going to go out, et cetera, et cetera.

That was more the angle I was coming from. When the train leaves the station once a year, you better get your stuff on it, whether it's ready or not. And I appreciate, I didn't know the history of where it came from. So I think this is definitely progress and improvement and predictability. You know, each time of year it's going to go out, et cetera, et cetera.

And it makes a lot of sense, especially a large project like this with tons of people using it. you want to be predictable, but also not too frequent. I would probably tend towards more frequent because now you have the train leaving the station more times. And if you don't, if you miss this one, that's all right. We got another train leaving six weeks from now.

And it makes a lot of sense, especially a large project like this with tons of people using it. you want to be predictable, but also not too frequent. I would probably tend towards more frequent because now you have the train leaving the station more times. And if you don't, if you miss this one, that's all right. We got another train leaving six weeks from now.

And so you can hop on when it's ready versus having to hop on once a year. And that's, you know, we've seen success in projects like Chrome, et cetera, with like rolling every six weeks, whatever's ready, we're going to ship a new version. I don't know if that works with languages and runtimes. You guys know way better than I do, which is why I asked the question.

And so you can hop on when it's ready versus having to hop on once a year. And that's, you know, we've seen success in projects like Chrome, et cetera, with like rolling every six weeks, whatever's ready, we're going to ship a new version. I don't know if that works with languages and runtimes. You guys know way better than I do, which is why I asked the question.

Why don't we make up another term for it?

Why don't we make up another term for it?

Ha ha!

Ha ha!

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah. Recursive acronyms I'm well aware of, but I'm not a Monty Python guy, so I missed completely this reference.

Yeah. Recursive acronyms I'm well aware of, but I'm not a Monty Python guy, so I missed completely this reference.

Like I have to watch it. Is it from Holy Grail or which movie is this?

Like I have to watch it. Is it from Holy Grail or which movie is this?

A little obscure reference to build an entire Python ecosystem around, but okay.

A little obscure reference to build an entire Python ecosystem around, but okay.

Again, this background is spectacular because you do run out of references with snakes. How many things can you actually reference? But with Monty Python, there's just countless references you can make, just people won't get them.

Again, this background is spectacular because you do run out of references with snakes. How many things can you actually reference? But with Monty Python, there's just countless references you can make, just people won't get them.

Good stuff. Okay, good meta conversation on release cadence. I think I agree with all your points. You have to find that sweet spot and as frequent as you can be reliable without being too frequent. And that probably varies per project. And I'm happy that you guys are happy with once a year. Certainly better than what y'all were doing before. That's very cool.

Good stuff. Okay, good meta conversation on release cadence. I think I agree with all your points. You have to find that sweet spot and as frequent as you can be reliable without being too frequent. And that probably varies per project. And I'm happy that you guys are happy with once a year. Certainly better than what y'all were doing before. That's very cool.

Let's go back to Python 3.13, because Pablo, at the beginning you mentioned it's officially iOS compatible or something. What does this mean? You can just fire up Python on your iPhone?

Let's go back to Python 3.13, because Pablo, at the beginning you mentioned it's officially iOS compatible or something. What does this mean? You can just fire up Python on your iPhone?

That's cool. So Lucas, Pablo speaks very fast. How do you keep up with him?

That's cool. So Lucas, Pablo speaks very fast. How do you keep up with him?

That definitely wasn't what I was thinking, but it makes a ton of sense. I think it's going to make some people very excited.

That definitely wasn't what I was thinking, but it makes a ton of sense. I think it's going to make some people very excited.

Write some Python code and deploy an app based on it. Like, build an app in Python.

Write some Python code and deploy an app based on it. Like, build an app in Python.

Well, now you have me thinking about the future. Let's close on this wish list. Imagine that the three of us are sitting down next September and talking about 314. What do you want us to be talking about? What do you hope we're talking about going into 314, each of you?

Well, now you have me thinking about the future. Let's close on this wish list. Imagine that the three of us are sitting down next September and talking about 314. What do you want us to be talking about? What do you hope we're talking about going into 314, each of you?

Yeah, that's awesome. I was reading about your improved error messages, and I think that's the kind of thing that has to be a sustained effort over time. It's like one of those paper cuts kind of things where it's like we're just going to continue to polish this thing. And so a great effort. I'm glad that you struck that up.

Yeah, that's awesome. I was reading about your improved error messages, and I think that's the kind of thing that has to be a sustained effort over time. It's like one of those paper cuts kind of things where it's like we're just going to continue to polish this thing. And so a great effort. I'm glad that you struck that up.

Well, the podcast Core.py, if you are a super Python nerd and want to nerd out with these two about internals. on a more frequent basis, then we'll cover it here on The Change Log, which sounds like it's going to be about once a year. I'd love to have you guys back next September and be talking about 314.

Well, the podcast Core.py, if you are a super Python nerd and want to nerd out with these two about internals. on a more frequent basis, then we'll cover it here on The Change Log, which sounds like it's going to be about once a year. I'd love to have you guys back next September and be talking about 314.

Hopefully, all of our wishes will have come to fruition and we'll have people out there free birding it. I mean, free threading it. Q Leonard Skinner here. And enjoying the new Python with no gill and the performance improvements that are possible there. Lots of potential. I'm certainly looking forward to it. Guys, thanks so much for coming on the show this week. Thanks for having us.

Hopefully, all of our wishes will have come to fruition and we'll have people out there free birding it. I mean, free threading it. Q Leonard Skinner here. And enjoying the new Python with no gill and the performance improvements that are possible there. Lots of potential. I'm certainly looking forward to it. Guys, thanks so much for coming on the show this week. Thanks for having us.

Okay, so now that Python is officially experimentally free birded, I mean free threaded, are you going to defenestrate the gill? Let us know in Zulip. Yes, the changelog community's conversations are now happening in Zulip. Join today by signing up. at changelog.com slash community. If you've already signed up, but you want your Zulip invite, just sign in and click on send me a Zulip invite.

Okay, so now that Python is officially experimentally free birded, I mean free threaded, are you going to defenestrate the gill? Let us know in Zulip. Yes, the changelog community's conversations are now happening in Zulip. Join today by signing up. at changelog.com slash community. If you've already signed up, but you want your Zulip invite, just sign in and click on send me a Zulip invite.

You'll see it. Of course, it's totally free and a totally cool place to hang out and discuss. Let's do one more big thanks to our sponsors of this episode. Sentry. We love Sentry. You might too. Use code changelog, save 100 bucks. Fly.io, the home of changelog.com. Ship something in five minutes or less. Learn how at fly.io. And of course, to Coder.com and Unblocked. Please support our sponsors.

You'll see it. Of course, it's totally free and a totally cool place to hang out and discuss. Let's do one more big thanks to our sponsors of this episode. Sentry. We love Sentry. You might too. Use code changelog, save 100 bucks. Fly.io, the home of changelog.com. Ship something in five minutes or less. Learn how at fly.io. And of course, to Coder.com and Unblocked. Please support our sponsors.

They support us. And thank you, of course, to the GOAT. Breakmaster Cylinder is the greatest beat freak of all times. Finally, thank you for listening to our shows. We truly appreciate you spending time with us each week. That is all for now. But on Friday, we are talking about developer happiness and unhappiness and productivity or lack thereof with our friend Abinoda from DX.

They support us. And thank you, of course, to the GOAT. Breakmaster Cylinder is the greatest beat freak of all times. Finally, thank you for listening to our shows. We truly appreciate you spending time with us each week. That is all for now. But on Friday, we are talking about developer happiness and unhappiness and productivity or lack thereof with our friend Abinoda from DX.

When we recorded this conversation last week, it was slated to be released on October 1st, but now they are targeting October 7th. So if you're listening to this in the future, 3.13 is fully baked. But if you are listening right after we hit publish, wait a week or grab the release candidate, which is 99% baked. Why are we all so excited about Python 3.13?

When we recorded this conversation last week, it was slated to be released on October 1st, but now they are targeting October 7th. So if you're listening to this in the future, 3.13 is fully baked. But if you are listening right after we hit publish, wait a week or grab the release candidate, which is 99% baked. Why are we all so excited about Python 3.13?

That is awesome. The personal touch means so much. It does. And it's worth going that extra mile in those circumstances. Well, we're here today to talk about Python 3.13. Hopefully, I'll be able to keep up with you, Pablo. Because not only do you speak fast, but I'm kind of a visitor to your guys' world. So maybe keep them in check, Lucas.

That is awesome. The personal touch means so much. It does. And it's worth going that extra mile in those circumstances. Well, we're here today to talk about Python 3.13. Hopefully, I'll be able to keep up with you, Pablo. Because not only do you speak fast, but I'm kind of a visitor to your guys' world. So maybe keep them in check, Lucas.

We're going to specifically talk about the biggest... And I guess, I mean, this is monumental, in fact... Our community member who thought we should do an episode on this, a shout out to Christian Klaus, says this is kind of massive for Pythonistas. This is the biggest feature coming out in 3.13, which should probably be out there if you're listening to this.

We're going to specifically talk about the biggest... And I guess, I mean, this is monumental, in fact... Our community member who thought we should do an episode on this, a shout out to Christian Klaus, says this is kind of massive for Pythonistas. This is the biggest feature coming out in 3.13, which should probably be out there if you're listening to this.

We're shipping this October 2nd and slated to release October 1st officially. At least the RC is out there, but software and ship dates, we think it's probably out there. if not coming very, very, very soon, the ability to disable or remove the global interpreter lock or the GIL, as it's so lovingly referred to. Let's start at base principles. What is the GIL?

We're shipping this October 2nd and slated to release October 1st officially. At least the RC is out there, but software and ship dates, we think it's probably out there. if not coming very, very, very soon, the ability to disable or remove the global interpreter lock or the GIL, as it's so lovingly referred to. Let's start at base principles. What is the GIL?

And then after that, why would you want to remove it?

And then after that, why would you want to remove it?

Well, the global interpreter lock, aka the GIL, is now experimentally optional. This is a huge deal, as Python is finally free-threaded and able to run with true parallelism. There's more, of course, and we get into all the details. I think you'll enjoy it, even if, like me, you aren't a regular Pythonista. But first, a mention of our partners at Fly.io.

Well, the global interpreter lock, aka the GIL, is now experimentally optional. This is a huge deal, as Python is finally free-threaded and able to run with true parallelism. There's more, of course, and we get into all the details. I think you'll enjoy it, even if, like me, you aren't a regular Pythonista. But first, a mention of our partners at Fly.io.

Let's earmark that for a future part of this conversation. So what you're saying is... When running Python, you can switch quickly between cores, but you can't actually run the same code on multiple cores at the exact same time. So you're saying it's concurrent, but it's not parallel. Yes, correct.

Let's earmark that for a future part of this conversation. So what you're saying is... When running Python, you can switch quickly between cores, but you can't actually run the same code on multiple cores at the exact same time. So you're saying it's concurrent, but it's not parallel. Yes, correct.

Because of that lock, one at a time, and it can switch at the speed of light, but no true parallelism until now.

Because of that lock, one at a time, and it can switch at the speed of light, but no true parallelism until now.

When we first launched the ability to collect tracing data, we were really emphasizing the performance aspect of that, the kind of application performance monitoring aspect, you know, because you have these things that are spans that measure how long something takes.

When we first launched the ability to collect tracing data, we were really emphasizing the performance aspect of that, the kind of application performance monitoring aspect, you know, because you have these things that are spans that measure how long something takes.

And so the natural thing is to try to graph their durations and think about their durations and, you know, warn somebody if the durations are getting too long. But what we've realized is that the performance stuff ends up being just a bunch of gauges to look at. And it's not super actionable, right?

And so the natural thing is to try to graph their durations and think about their durations and, you know, warn somebody if the durations are getting too long. But what we've realized is that the performance stuff ends up being just a bunch of gauges to look at. And it's not super actionable, right?

Sentry is all about this notion of debug ability and actually making it easier to fix the problem, not just sort of giving you more gauges. A lot of what we're trying to do now is focus a little bit less on the sort of just the performance monitoring side of things and turn tracing into a tool that actually aids the debug ability of problems.

Sentry is all about this notion of debug ability and actually making it easier to fix the problem, not just sort of giving you more gauges. A lot of what we're trying to do now is focus a little bit less on the sort of just the performance monitoring side of things and turn tracing into a tool that actually aids the debug ability of problems.

No.

No.

Yeah, one of the things that we're seeing is that in the past, people had separate systems where they had like logs on servers, written files. They were maybe sending some metrics to Datadog or something like that or some other system. They were monitoring for errors with some product, maybe it was Sentry.

Yeah, one of the things that we're seeing is that in the past, people had separate systems where they had like logs on servers, written files. They were maybe sending some metrics to Datadog or something like that or some other system. They were monitoring for errors with some product, maybe it was Sentry.

But more and more what we see is people want all of these sources of telemetry logically tied together somehow. And that's really what we're pursuing at Sentry now. We have this concept of a trace ID, which is kind of a key that ties together all of the pieces of data that are associated with the user action.

But more and more what we see is people want all of these sources of telemetry logically tied together somehow. And that's really what we're pursuing at Sentry now. We have this concept of a trace ID, which is kind of a key that ties together all of the pieces of data that are associated with the user action.

So if a user loads a web page, we want to tie together all the server requests that happened, any errors that happened, any metrics that were collected. And what that allows on the back end You don't just have to look at like three different graphs and sort of line them up in time and try to draw your own conclusions.

So if a user loads a web page, we want to tie together all the server requests that happened, any errors that happened, any metrics that were collected. And what that allows on the back end You don't just have to look at like three different graphs and sort of line them up in time and try to draw your own conclusions.

You can actually like analyze and slice and dice the data and say, hey, what did this metric look like for people with this operating system versus this metric look like for people with this operating system and actually get into those details.

You can actually like analyze and slice and dice the data and say, hey, what did this metric look like for people with this operating system versus this metric look like for people with this operating system and actually get into those details.

So this kind of idea of tying all of the telemetry data together using this concept of a trace ID or basically some key, I think is a big win for developers trying to diagnose and debug real world systems and something that is, we're kind of charged the path for that for everybody.

So this kind of idea of tying all of the telemetry data together using this concept of a trace ID or basically some key, I think is a big win for developers trying to diagnose and debug real world systems and something that is, we're kind of charged the path for that for everybody.

Yeah, I mean, I guess, again, I'll just keep saying it maybe, but I think it kind of goes back to this debuggability experience. When you are digging into an issue, you know, having a sort of a richer data model that's, you know, your logs are structured. They're sort of this hierarchical structure with spans.

Yeah, I mean, I guess, again, I'll just keep saying it maybe, but I think it kind of goes back to this debuggability experience. When you are digging into an issue, you know, having a sort of a richer data model that's, you know, your logs are structured. They're sort of this hierarchical structure with spans.

And not only is it just the spans that are structured, they're tied to errors, they're tied to other things. So when you have the data model that's kind of interconnected, it opens up all different kinds of analysis that were just kind of either very manual before, kind of guessing that maybe this log happened at the same time as this other thing, or we're just impossible.

And not only is it just the spans that are structured, they're tied to errors, they're tied to other things. So when you have the data model that's kind of interconnected, it opens up all different kinds of analysis that were just kind of either very manual before, kind of guessing that maybe this log happened at the same time as this other thing, or we're just impossible.

We get excited not only about the new kinds of issues that we can detect with that interconnected data model, but also just for every issue that we do detect, how easy it is to get to the bottom of it.

We get excited not only about the new kinds of issues that we can detect with that interconnected data model, but also just for every issue that we do detect, how easy it is to get to the bottom of it.

When we first launched the ability to collect tracing data, we were really emphasizing the performance aspect of that, the kind of application performance monitoring aspect. Because you have these things that are spans that measure how long something takes.

When we first launched the ability to collect tracing data, we were really emphasizing the performance aspect of that, the kind of application performance monitoring aspect. Because you have these things that are spans that measure how long something takes.

And so the natural thing is to try to graph their durations and think about their durations and warn somebody if the durations are getting too long. But what we've realized is that the performance stuff ends up being just a bunch of gauges to look at. And it's not super actionable.

And so the natural thing is to try to graph their durations and think about their durations and warn somebody if the durations are getting too long. But what we've realized is that the performance stuff ends up being just a bunch of gauges to look at. And it's not super actionable.

Sentry is all about this notion of debug ability and actually making it easier to fix the problem, not just sort of giving you more gauges. A lot of what we're trying to do now is focus a little bit less on the sort of just the performance monitoring side of things and turn tracing into a tool that actually aids the debug ability of problems.

Sentry is all about this notion of debug ability and actually making it easier to fix the problem, not just sort of giving you more gauges. A lot of what we're trying to do now is focus a little bit less on the sort of just the performance monitoring side of things and turn tracing into a tool that actually aids the debug ability of problems.

Yeah. I've lost track at this point.

Yeah. I've lost track at this point.

I think we started diversifying the kinds of things we were talking about, right? So we started talking about things that are adjacent to Go, right? Not just the language itself. And, you know, there's only so many episodes you can have on the actual syntax and the concurrency and all these things. There's been dozens and dozens of blog posts about, oh, why I like Go?

I think we started diversifying the kinds of things we were talking about, right? So we started talking about things that are adjacent to Go, right? Not just the language itself. And, you know, there's only so many episodes you can have on the actual syntax and the concurrency and all these things. There's been dozens and dozens of blog posts about, oh, why I like Go?

I mean, wherever you fall on the fence there, but the things that are being built will go, the productivity gains people are getting out of it, what companies are being... building the entire stack around, like these things became sort of where we spent a lot of times. And then as time went on, I think we've also sort of bringing even non-technical, but still adjacent to some degree, right?

I mean, wherever you fall on the fence there, but the things that are being built will go, the productivity gains people are getting out of it, what companies are being... building the entire stack around, like these things became sort of where we spent a lot of times. And then as time went on, I think we've also sort of bringing even non-technical, but still adjacent to some degree, right?

Topics into the mix as well. Now, I don't know how much our audience appreciates that sort of diversity of topics. You know, I'm sure some people would prefer the hardcore technical stuff all the time and nothing but,

Topics into the mix as well. Now, I don't know how much our audience appreciates that sort of diversity of topics. You know, I'm sure some people would prefer the hardcore technical stuff all the time and nothing but,

But I'm sure I've heard from other people as well say, hey, remember that episode you did on something that is not ghost specific, but it was something that maybe they were investigating or going through it. And they heard from one of the hosts about something that resonated. So I hear it on both sides, right? So I think the... For me, it's unless somebody says, hey, you can't do that.

But I'm sure I've heard from other people as well say, hey, remember that episode you did on something that is not ghost specific, but it was something that maybe they were investigating or going through it. And they heard from one of the hosts about something that resonated. So I hear it on both sides, right? So I think the... For me, it's unless somebody says, hey, you can't do that.

I think a lot of topics should extend beyond ghost specific things, as long as there's some connection back, right? Because life is not one dimensional, right? So there's going to be some things that are relevant, right? That makes sense to touch on.

I think a lot of topics should extend beyond ghost specific things, as long as there's some connection back, right? Because life is not one dimensional, right? So there's going to be some things that are relevant, right? That makes sense to touch on.

Yeah, so for some context, every once in a while, you'll have these sort of, let's just say, influential, in one way or another, by some definition, video or blog or whatever it is that comes from a popular figure. In this case, it was Paul Graham, which hopefully most- Famous for his essays. Right, yeah, it's famous for his essays.

Yeah, so for some context, every once in a while, you'll have these sort of, let's just say, influential, in one way or another, by some definition, video or blog or whatever it is that comes from a popular figure. In this case, it was Paul Graham, which hopefully most- Famous for his essays. Right, yeah, it's famous for his essays.

They tend to be sort of impactful, short to the point, no flowery language. People love that about those essays. And Founder Mode was one such essay and sort of focused on sort of what happens when you especially start to go from a startup and you become a scale up, you know, as they use in terminology and you start to grow as a company.

They tend to be sort of impactful, short to the point, no flowery language. People love that about those essays. And Founder Mode was one such essay and sort of focused on sort of what happens when you especially start to go from a startup and you become a scale up, you know, as they use in terminology and you start to grow as a company.

And now you have multiple layers being added, you know, you know, between the top and the people on the ground, you know, writing software, you know, shipping things. So you have all these sort of levels, these managerial levels, you know, that come into the picture.

And now you have multiple layers being added, you know, you know, between the top and the people on the ground, you know, writing software, you know, shipping things. So you have all these sort of levels, these managerial levels, you know, that come into the picture.

And the founder or founders with the original idea or the original vision, they start getting sort of decoupled further and further away from the people with the boots on the ground, implementing the thing, implementing the vision, pushing things forward.

And the founder or founders with the original idea or the original vision, they start getting sort of decoupled further and further away from the people with the boots on the ground, implementing the thing, implementing the vision, pushing things forward.

And then now, because of all these sort of managerial layers, there become sort of different ways you can work in a company with these different managerial layers. You have the people that are sort of action oriented and you have the people that are So discussion-oriented, right?

And then now, because of all these sort of managerial layers, there become sort of different ways you can work in a company with these different managerial layers. You have the people that are sort of action oriented and you have the people that are So discussion-oriented, right?

And the moment you read it, you're like, oh, yeah, I've been in those situations where I have the managers who have to have a meeting, set up a meeting for a meeting. Like, yo, dog, I heard you like meetings, right? So I got you some meetings, right? That's right. And then you have the people that are sort of more action oriented, right?

And the moment you read it, you're like, oh, yeah, I've been in those situations where I have the managers who have to have a meeting, set up a meeting for a meeting. Like, yo, dog, I heard you like meetings, right? So I got you some meetings, right? That's right. And then you have the people that are sort of more action oriented, right?

So all that, basically, there's this, you know, this aspect of the founder sort of, you know, or an individual sort of going founder mode, basically saying, hey, boots to the ground, let's do this, remove the layers, remove the sort of the fluff. be actionable, like be action oriented and sort of do things. At least that's what I took away from the whole thing.

So all that, basically, there's this, you know, this aspect of the founder sort of, you know, or an individual sort of going founder mode, basically saying, hey, boots to the ground, let's do this, remove the layers, remove the sort of the fluff. be actionable, like be action oriented and sort of do things. At least that's what I took away from the whole thing.

So it's like basically saying, do whatever it takes to move the mission forward, move the product forward, whatever it is that you're working on, move that forward and sort of know exactly what kind of management you're on around you, if at all, right? That kind of thing. So Again, I think he was speaking to startups and scale-ups, companies that are not huge, massive empires.

So it's like basically saying, do whatever it takes to move the mission forward, move the product forward, whatever it is that you're working on, move that forward and sort of know exactly what kind of management you're on around you, if at all, right? That kind of thing. So Again, I think he was speaking to startups and scale-ups, companies that are not huge, massive empires.

Because those companies, once you get that big, there's naturally going to be multiple layers of management. I don't know if you can even avoid that. That's just what happens the more people you have in an organization. But if you are a startup or scale up, perhaps sort of push back against that tide, right?

Because those companies, once you get that big, there's naturally going to be multiple layers of management. I don't know if you can even avoid that. That's just what happens the more people you have in an organization. But if you are a startup or scale up, perhaps sort of push back against that tide, right?

Of sort of that, of all those layers, because you're going to be more effective and you're going to be delivering stuff. So to me, I'm like, okay, if I'm just a cog in the machine, I'm just low in the totem pole, right? I'm not a founder, right? The founder is saying, hey, let's push, let's go. Let's get in there and deliver things. Let's work on things, right? That zeal, that passion, that energy.

Of sort of that, of all those layers, because you're going to be more effective and you're going to be delivering stuff. So to me, I'm like, okay, if I'm just a cog in the machine, I'm just low in the totem pole, right? I'm not a founder, right? The founder is saying, hey, let's push, let's go. Let's get in there and deliver things. Let's work on things, right? That zeal, that passion, that energy.

If I'm just getting a paycheck every couple of weeks from you, I'm putting in my 40 hours or whatever. Like, should I care? Because it's your company, right? Unless I'm getting some equity or stock or something, right? From doing more, right? Then you're paying me for, right? Like, how should I view founder mode? If I'm a software engineer writing Go code, right?

If I'm just getting a paycheck every couple of weeks from you, I'm putting in my 40 hours or whatever. Like, should I care? Because it's your company, right? Unless I'm getting some equity or stock or something, right? From doing more, right? Then you're paying me for, right? Like, how should I view founder mode? If I'm a software engineer writing Go code, right?

How should I... And you come at me with founder mode, like... Should I care? Is it relevant to me? Like, so basically I'm trying to, the way I understood it is, okay, I understand the spirit of the essay, but how do I make it applicable? How do I take the good parts, so to speak, right? And make them applicable to what I do on a day-to-day basis if I'm not a founder, right?

How should I... And you come at me with founder mode, like... Should I care? Is it relevant to me? Like, so basically I'm trying to, the way I understood it is, okay, I understand the spirit of the essay, but how do I make it applicable? How do I take the good parts, so to speak, right? And make them applicable to what I do on a day-to-day basis if I'm not a founder, right?

And that's what our discussion focused on.

And that's what our discussion focused on.

I would say if you're not, so I think my attitude is, on sort of being a quote unquote cog in the machine has sort of shifted over the years. Before I used to think, and early on in my career, or perhaps not even a, not even sort of my career, but early on, or rather, let's say, let's go back 10, 20, 25 years, right? Companies, right? That's back. Hey, I've been, I've been doing this for a while.

I would say if you're not, so I think my attitude is, on sort of being a quote unquote cog in the machine has sort of shifted over the years. Before I used to think, and early on in my career, or perhaps not even a, not even sort of my career, but early on, or rather, let's say, let's go back 10, 20, 25 years, right? Companies, right? That's back. Hey, I've been, I've been doing this for a while.

I've been around. I've been around. People have been paying me to write code for 26 years now. I calculated it and I'm like, and I'm astounded by that fact. But anyways, if I go back to the early days, you know, a few years ago where companies had a, I think, had a softer edge, at least one that appeared that way. You know, companies used to talk about, oh, we are family here, right?

I've been around. I've been around. People have been paying me to write code for 26 years now. I calculated it and I'm like, and I'm astounded by that fact. But anyways, if I go back to the early days, you know, a few years ago where companies had a, I think, had a softer edge, at least one that appeared that way. You know, companies used to talk about, oh, we are family here, right?

You know, we care about our people, like all of that sort of language. I think underneath everybody sort of knew You pay me to do the job, and I know if I stop doing the job or if I don't do it well by some definition, I'm out of here, right? People knew that, but companies were more willing, at least in the tech sector, were more sort of softer on the edges, so to speak.

You know, we care about our people, like all of that sort of language. I think underneath everybody sort of knew You pay me to do the job, and I know if I stop doing the job or if I don't do it well by some definition, I'm out of here, right? People knew that, but companies were more willing, at least in the tech sector, were more sort of softer on the edges, so to speak.

But nowadays, I don't think anybody who works in tech, especially in light of the recent rounds and rounds and rounds of layoffs and everything else, and you got... People are recording and putting their layoffs on TikTok and things.

But nowadays, I don't think anybody who works in tech, especially in light of the recent rounds and rounds and rounds of layoffs and everything else, and you got... People are recording and putting their layoffs on TikTok and things.

The attitude towards companies with those languages that say, oh, we care about our people, whatever it is, yet executives are raking in millions in bonuses while they're laying off people. That's dissonance between what they're saying or have been saying and the reality of you being an employee or cog in that machine. No matter how good a job you do,

The attitude towards companies with those languages that say, oh, we care about our people, whatever it is, yet executives are raking in millions in bonuses while they're laying off people. That's dissonance between what they're saying or have been saying and the reality of you being an employee or cog in that machine. No matter how good a job you do,

You are always at risk, no matter how good a job you do. While they might position your layoff or your firing as a performance thing, we all know that's not always true. Right. We know at the end of the day, companies, especially publicly traded companies, they don't have your best interests at heart. They have the shareholders and best interests at heart. That is priority one, the shareholder.

You are always at risk, no matter how good a job you do. While they might position your layoff or your firing as a performance thing, we all know that's not always true. Right. We know at the end of the day, companies, especially publicly traded companies, they don't have your best interests at heart. They have the shareholders and best interests at heart. That is priority one, the shareholder.

Right. So you as an employee, you are means to that end. Right. So the more you understand sort of that reality. Right. The more you can calibrate your relationship with an employer or whatever you're involved in. Right. So that doesn't mean, however, that you stop caring about your craft, what you do, right? The professionalism that you bring to your work, right?

Right. So you as an employee, you are means to that end. Right. So the more you understand sort of that reality. Right. The more you can calibrate your relationship with an employer or whatever you're involved in. Right. So that doesn't mean, however, that you stop caring about your craft, what you do, right? The professionalism that you bring to your work, right?

The passion that you bring to your work. That is a personal thing. No company is ever going to be able to take my level of interest, of passion, of wanting to do the right thing, right? No company holds sway over that, right? If you hire me for a job, I'm going to do that job because I'm a professional. That's what I do, right? You pay me, we exchange services, right?

The passion that you bring to your work. That is a personal thing. No company is ever going to be able to take my level of interest, of passion, of wanting to do the right thing, right? No company holds sway over that, right? If you hire me for a job, I'm going to do that job because I'm a professional. That's what I do, right? You pay me, we exchange services, right?

I give you what you're looking for and you pay me in exchange for my time, right? So that's a very professional thing. And I see clearly the nature of that relationship. The problem comes when you start adding things around it to make me feel a particular way about your company. You don't need all that flowery stuff, right? I will do the job.

I give you what you're looking for and you pay me in exchange for my time, right? So that's a very professional thing. And I see clearly the nature of that relationship. The problem comes when you start adding things around it to make me feel a particular way about your company. You don't need all that flowery stuff, right? I will do the job.

So I think in this day and age, I think for me, I took founding mode to mean, okay, care about what you do, right? At the deepest level. If you stop caring about maintaining a code for your company, or if you think, you know, your coworkers are annoying for whatever reason, or you stop loving going to work and stop loving that job, then maybe move on, right? Maybe your time there is over, right?

So I think in this day and age, I think for me, I took founding mode to mean, okay, care about what you do, right? At the deepest level. If you stop caring about maintaining a code for your company, or if you think, you know, your coworkers are annoying for whatever reason, or you stop loving going to work and stop loving that job, then maybe move on, right? Maybe your time there is over, right?

But don't sort of lower yourself to the point where you're just doing a crappy job because you don't like where you are. Just move somewhere else and be your best self, right?

But don't sort of lower yourself to the point where you're just doing a crappy job because you don't like where you are. Just move somewhere else and be your best self, right?

So we all win. So let's carry that thought. Let's pull that thread a little bit. If it meant you get laid off or fired or whatever, whatever term they want to put around it, right? In order for the whole to keep moving forward, do you also happily accept that?

So we all win. So let's carry that thought. Let's pull that thread a little bit. If it meant you get laid off or fired or whatever, whatever term they want to put around it, right? In order for the whole to keep moving forward, do you also happily accept that?

disappointment, not resentment.

disappointment, not resentment.

I have a quote for you. Okay. Ego is the enemy.

I have a quote for you. Okay. Ego is the enemy.

You can try. You can chime in. I don't, but what I will say is that I'll be patient. So in my, in my 26 year career, I've been laid off twice. Right. I've had, and I've worked at very large companies. I've worked at very small companies. Right. So I've, I've, you know, I've, I've,

You can try. You can chime in. I don't, but what I will say is that I'll be patient. So in my, in my 26 year career, I've been laid off twice. Right. I've had, and I've worked at very large companies. I've worked at very small companies. Right. So I've, I've, you know, I've, I've,

lived enough life as a professional to have seen all matter of ways, you know, like layoffs are done well, or people are treated fairly or unfairly, kindly, unkindly. So I've been exposed to enough of that. So I speak from that standpoint, I speak from a position of privilege because I've experienced all these facets, right?

lived enough life as a professional to have seen all matter of ways, you know, like layoffs are done well, or people are treated fairly or unfairly, kindly, unkindly. So I've been exposed to enough of that. So I speak from that standpoint, I speak from a position of privilege because I've experienced all these facets, right?

The one thing I think is like consistently that it wasn't always like this when I was younger. and more foolish and more sort of hot-blooded, if somebody said, hey, you're not doing a good job, or we have to lay you off, or we have to fire you because of reason X, Y, and Z, and I have been fired once, the initial reaction is always visceral, right? No matter how...

The one thing I think is like consistently that it wasn't always like this when I was younger. and more foolish and more sort of hot-blooded, if somebody said, hey, you're not doing a good job, or we have to lay you off, or we have to fire you because of reason X, Y, and Z, and I have been fired once, the initial reaction is always visceral, right? No matter how...

you know, stoic you are or try to be, right. Cause it's, it's disappointing, right. It's like a, it's like a stat, you know, especially if you, you know, you've been doing a good job, right. Like to be told it's like a rejection. Nobody loves rejection, right.

you know, stoic you are or try to be, right. Cause it's, it's disappointing, right. It's like a, it's like a stat, you know, especially if you, you know, you've been doing a good job, right. Like to be told it's like a rejection. Nobody loves rejection, right.

To be told that, Hey, we're going to have to let you go because like you say, Jared, like you thought you were, you know, indispensable, but at the end of the day, really you're not right. So at the end of the day, again, You, the business, a company doesn't exist to serve your needs, you know, or to cater to your feelings, right? It exists to make other people wealthy, right?

To be told that, Hey, we're going to have to let you go because like you say, Jared, like you thought you were, you know, indispensable, but at the end of the day, really you're not right. So at the end of the day, again, You, the business, a company doesn't exist to serve your needs, you know, or to cater to your feelings, right? It exists to make other people wealthy, right?

Now, if you happen to also get some level of wealth by some definition, right? You know, relatively speaking from where you were and what you've been able to earn at an organization, that's great, right? It just keeps you happy, keeps you chugging along. But ultimately, businesses are designed to make a certain group of people at the top wealthy. There's nothing wrong with it.

Now, if you happen to also get some level of wealth by some definition, right? You know, relatively speaking from where you were and what you've been able to earn at an organization, that's great, right? It just keeps you happy, keeps you chugging along. But ultimately, businesses are designed to make a certain group of people at the top wealthy. There's nothing wrong with it.

I mean, you start a business for that reason. You want to be well off. You want to take care of your family. You want to have money in the bank. Profit. Yeah, exactly. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. So you get hired as a tool for that purpose. Now, if... When you get that, okay, I've been let go. I thought I was indispensable and I'm not.

I mean, you start a business for that reason. You want to be well off. You want to take care of your family. You want to have money in the bank. Profit. Yeah, exactly. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. So you get hired as a tool for that purpose. Now, if... When you get that, okay, I've been let go. I thought I was indispensable and I'm not.

I've experienced enough of that to now, basically, if I'm going into an engagement with an employer or doing consulting, whatever it is, I have to go in. I have to check my ego at the door. I have to say, you know what? I'm going to go in here and I'm going to do as best a job as I can based on what I know the customer or the employer or whatever it is wants. And I know that at any point,

I've experienced enough of that to now, basically, if I'm going into an engagement with an employer or doing consulting, whatever it is, I have to go in. I have to check my ego at the door. I have to say, you know what? I'm going to go in here and I'm going to do as best a job as I can based on what I know the customer or the employer or whatever it is wants. And I know that at any point,

I could be removed from this position. This could be taken away, right? It's like that, you know, I believe there's an ancient Chinese proverb or something basically that says, maybe it's not Chinese, but I'm misremembering, but it basically, it's the idea that a wise person gets given this beautiful ornate teapot. Very elegant, very beautiful to look at, custom-made and gifted to them.

I could be removed from this position. This could be taken away, right? It's like that, you know, I believe there's an ancient Chinese proverb or something basically that says, maybe it's not Chinese, but I'm misremembering, but it basically, it's the idea that a wise person gets given this beautiful ornate teapot. Very elegant, very beautiful to look at, custom-made and gifted to them.

And then they have a child or a sibling or something like that that keeps coming to them and say, hey, don't you love the teapot? Don't you admire it? He's like, yes, I do, but it's already broken. And the child is like, what do you mean it's already broken? Yeah, it's already broken. It is what it is, but it's already broken. I can't continue to have this forever. It's already broken.

And then they have a child or a sibling or something like that that keeps coming to them and say, hey, don't you love the teapot? Don't you admire it? He's like, yes, I do, but it's already broken. And the child is like, what do you mean it's already broken? Yeah, it's already broken. It is what it is, but it's already broken. I can't continue to have this forever. It's already broken.

And through conversation, you come to learn that the way that this person is able to sort of stabilize themselves so that eventually when the teapot does indeed get broken, Maybe it's a child that knocks it over accidentally or whatever it is. The teapot is now broken. This beautiful, very enjoyable thing is now no more. That person is now, huh, okay. Because it was already broken in their mind.

And through conversation, you come to learn that the way that this person is able to sort of stabilize themselves so that eventually when the teapot does indeed get broken, Maybe it's a child that knocks it over accidentally or whatever it is. The teapot is now broken. This beautiful, very enjoyable thing is now no more. That person is now, huh, okay. Because it was already broken in their mind.

So they didn't lose. Their world wasn't shattered along with that teapot because they didn't invest so much of themselves into it. So I have to go into these things saying, hey, It's already broken, right? I'm here to do as best that I can do for as long as I can do. But if this thing were to be taken away from me, right, tomorrow, next week, next year, right, that's okay too.

So they didn't lose. Their world wasn't shattered along with that teapot because they didn't invest so much of themselves into it. So I have to go into these things saying, hey, It's already broken, right? I'm here to do as best that I can do for as long as I can do. But if this thing were to be taken away from me, right, tomorrow, next week, next year, right, that's okay too.

What do you got to say about that, Jared?

What do you got to say about that, Jared?

See, but being indispensable implies that others must see you as such. Now, you're putting that level of self-worth in the hands of others, right?

See, but being indispensable implies that others must see you as such. Now, you're putting that level of self-worth in the hands of others, right?

what to me i don't understand where you're coming from jared to me the way i i and i used to approach it like this right i used to because i like for people to like me right we all do like it's like you know it's ingrained in us as human beings right we we want to be like we we we're a tribal sort of you know kind of entity right so the the we don't want rejection right from the tribe right we want to be welcomed and and liked and say oh it

what to me i don't understand where you're coming from jared to me the way i i and i used to approach it like this right i used to because i like for people to like me right we all do like it's like you know it's ingrained in us as human beings right we we want to be like we we we're a tribal sort of you know kind of entity right so the the we don't want rejection right from the tribe right we want to be welcomed and and liked and say oh it

Johnny, hey, how you doing? Because, you know, by being that sort of likable, by being the one that always delivers, always comes through, right? You're the one teammate, everybody can just call in and boom, you just solve all the problems, right? By being that, right, you get that sort of that little hit of dopamine, right? It's like, ah, I love when people love me, right?

Johnny, hey, how you doing? Because, you know, by being that sort of likable, by being the one that always delivers, always comes through, right? You're the one teammate, everybody can just call in and boom, you just solve all the problems, right? By being that, right, you get that sort of that little hit of dopamine, right? It's like, ah, I love when people love me, right?

But you're putting that sort of self-worth in the hands of others. And nobody will tell you, like a stoic, right? Nobody will tell you how dangerous that is than those who know how it feels when all that adoration and admiration gets pulled back for one reason or another. Because it's not in your control, right? What is in your control, right, is how good a job you do.

But you're putting that sort of self-worth in the hands of others. And nobody will tell you, like a stoic, right? Nobody will tell you how dangerous that is than those who know how it feels when all that adoration and admiration gets pulled back for one reason or another. Because it's not in your control, right? What is in your control, right, is how good a job you do.

how well you deliver on the mission, the work, whatever you've been assigned to do, however small it might be, right? If you can deliver and objectively say, hey, I did a good job there, what people think of me as a result is not in your control. So I'm like, hey, whether that praise comes or goes, it doesn't matter to me, right?

how well you deliver on the mission, the work, whatever you've been assigned to do, however small it might be, right? If you can deliver and objectively say, hey, I did a good job there, what people think of me as a result is not in your control. So I'm like, hey, whether that praise comes or goes, it doesn't matter to me, right?

Because at the end of the day, I know if I get laid off, it's not going to matter how much praise I got or didn't get because that too is outside of my control. The only thing I have control over is the work that I'm doing right now. And how good do I feel when I've delivered it and get up and walk away from this keyboard, right? How do I feel about myself?

Because at the end of the day, I know if I get laid off, it's not going to matter how much praise I got or didn't get because that too is outside of my control. The only thing I have control over is the work that I'm doing right now. And how good do I feel when I've delivered it and get up and walk away from this keyboard, right? How do I feel about myself?

You can keep your job, Jared.

You can keep your job, Jared.

Interesting enough, something you said earlier brought back a fond memory. One of the positions in the past that I got laid off from was, Actually, no, that one was, I can call it a firing, right? Because, you know, it wasn't, oh, we're making cuts because, you know, finances or whatever that you typically hear these days.

Interesting enough, something you said earlier brought back a fond memory. One of the positions in the past that I got laid off from was, Actually, no, that one was, I can call it a firing, right? Because, you know, it wasn't, oh, we're making cuts because, you know, finances or whatever that you typically hear these days.

It was like, we didn't think, we were expecting something else, but we got something different. And which I'm like completely fine with, right? What happened though, I think maybe six months later or less than a year later, like to piggyback on what Adam was saying about, you know, never burning bridges, right? Like we parted ways like very amicably. Right. That was not resentful.

It was like, we didn't think, we were expecting something else, but we got something different. And which I'm like completely fine with, right? What happened though, I think maybe six months later or less than a year later, like to piggyback on what Adam was saying about, you know, never burning bridges, right? Like we parted ways like very amicably. Right. That was not resentful.

You know, we did the thing. We sat down from across from each other, looked each other in the eye, say, hey, I was expecting this. I didn't get that. And I was like, OK, like completely understand. We remain friends. Right. And this was back in Boston. So we remain friends and everything. And six months later. Right. Or however long we actually go and have lunch together. Right.

You know, we did the thing. We sat down from across from each other, looked each other in the eye, say, hey, I was expecting this. I didn't get that. And I was like, OK, like completely understand. We remain friends. Right. And this was back in Boston. So we remain friends and everything. And six months later. Right. Or however long we actually go and have lunch together. Right.

We sit down, you know, I'm going to say, Hey, how's the business? You know, how's, how are things going? Whatever it is. And, and literally again, the same experience sitting from across the table. It was like, yeah, we made a mistake in letting you go. Right. So when I heard that, bam, when I heard that, I was like, Holy smoke. Internally, I'm like jumping for joy. I'm like, I knew it. I knew it.

We sit down, you know, I'm going to say, Hey, how's the business? You know, how's, how are things going? Whatever it is. And, and literally again, the same experience sitting from across the table. It was like, yeah, we made a mistake in letting you go. Right. So when I heard that, bam, when I heard that, I was like, Holy smoke. Internally, I'm like jumping for joy. I'm like, I knew it. I knew it.

I knew it.

I knew it.

Come on.

Come on.

I guess I was, I just, I just didn't, you know, hang a lot on it, but I understand what you're saying. Like feeling like when you leave, you leave a hole that is noticeable. Right. Right. Like, yeah, I love that. I mean, I'm not going to lie.

I guess I was, I just, I just didn't, you know, hang a lot on it, but I understand what you're saying. Like feeling like when you leave, you leave a hole that is noticeable. Right. Right. Like, yeah, I love that. I mean, I'm not going to lie.

It's, it's, it's feeling that you have that kind of impact, but the thing is the higher ups are probably never going to feel it as much as your team or as much as people you work with closely day to day.

It's, it's, it's feeling that you have that kind of impact, but the thing is the higher ups are probably never going to feel it as much as your team or as much as people you work with closely day to day.

That was great. Yeah. Oh, it felt amazing. It felt amazing. I was in cloud nine. I was like, oh, man, I knew it.

That was great. Yeah. Oh, it felt amazing. It felt amazing. I was in cloud nine. I was like, oh, man, I knew it.

I'm afraid of just wildlife. Like, you know, like I'm afraid, like I have deer, like, you know, like parking on my lawn, like all day, all night. I'm afraid that, you know, usually they like shy away from you. Like if I'm walking on a path or whatever, they might, you know, give me a white birth. But I'm like, one day they'd be like, we outnumber you, man. Right. We could take you out.

I'm afraid of just wildlife. Like, you know, like I'm afraid, like I have deer, like, you know, like parking on my lawn, like all day, all night. I'm afraid that, you know, usually they like shy away from you. Like if I'm walking on a path or whatever, they might, you know, give me a white birth. But I'm like, one day they'd be like, we outnumber you, man. Right. We could take you out.

And I got horns. There's like a dozen of us out here.

And I got horns. There's like a dozen of us out here.

It's just a hunch that I got. So one of the things that I do and have always done as a professional is I'm always looking at job postings, right? So while, you know, you have, you know, YouTube, you know, influencers saying, hey, this framework is the best thing or whatever.

It's just a hunch that I got. So one of the things that I do and have always done as a professional is I'm always looking at job postings, right? So while, you know, you have, you know, YouTube, you know, influencers saying, hey, this framework is the best thing or whatever.

Like people are, you know, geeks get excited, you know, nerds get excited about, you know, technologies and programming and everything else. I'm like, okay, that's one lens. The other lens is what are companies actually hiring for? What list of technologies do you see on those job descriptions? So I'm always looking at those job descriptions. Hey, what do SREs need to know these days?

Like people are, you know, geeks get excited, you know, nerds get excited about, you know, technologies and programming and everything else. I'm like, okay, that's one lens. The other lens is what are companies actually hiring for? What list of technologies do you see on those job descriptions? So I'm always looking at those job descriptions. Hey, what do SREs need to know these days?

Hey, what does a full-stack developer need to know these days? So I'm always keeping an eye out to see where the trend is going. Regardless of what the hype is doing, I'm looking at what people are actually getting paid for. So I started noticing, right, the same job. I would literally bookmark it, right? I would take a screenshot of it, right?

Hey, what does a full-stack developer need to know these days? So I'm always keeping an eye out to see where the trend is going. Regardless of what the hype is doing, I'm looking at what people are actually getting paid for. So I started noticing, right, the same job. I would literally bookmark it, right? I would take a screenshot of it, right?

And I started noticing the same job, right, with almost the same description, maybe a word change here and there, often from the same recruiter, other times from a different recruiter, but the same job, again, with a word change here and there, right, asking for the same exact thing. And I'm like seeing the same thing come up over again week after week after week after week after week, right?

And I started noticing the same job, right, with almost the same description, maybe a word change here and there, often from the same recruiter, other times from a different recruiter, but the same job, again, with a word change here and there, right, asking for the same exact thing. And I'm like seeing the same thing come up over again week after week after week after week after week, right?

Before, I didn't pay any attention because we didn't have, you know, back in the heyday, everybody had a job. So less of that, right? And basically companies were just tripping over themselves to hire people, right? Like, you know, at the start of the pandemic and everything else, when all the overhiring was happening, so they say. So you didn't notice it as much, but not, you know.

Before, I didn't pay any attention because we didn't have, you know, back in the heyday, everybody had a job. So less of that, right? And basically companies were just tripping over themselves to hire people, right? Like, you know, at the start of the pandemic and everything else, when all the overhiring was happening, so they say. So you didn't notice it as much, but not, you know.

So many people on the job market, right? You're seeing the influx of these job postings and you're like, okay, how come there are so many job postings, especially in places like LinkedIn or Indeed or Dice or whatever it is, so many job postings and so many people are saying they can't find jobs.

So many people on the job market, right? You're seeing the influx of these job postings and you're like, okay, how come there are so many job postings, especially in places like LinkedIn or Indeed or Dice or whatever it is, so many job postings and so many people are saying they can't find jobs.

going from six months, you know, like, you know, from, from three to six months before they find a job, like getting an interview is harder than it's ever been. Like, I'm like, something is not making sense here. What are all these job postings? And I started seeing the pattern repeating over and over and over again. Then I'm like, um, something doesn't add up here.

going from six months, you know, like, you know, from, from three to six months before they find a job, like getting an interview is harder than it's ever been. Like, I'm like, something is not making sense here. What are all these job postings? And I started seeing the pattern repeating over and over and over again. Then I'm like, um, something doesn't add up here.

Is somebody just training a model or something? It is when people just keep on sending their resume. resumes into this void? Like, like what is going on here? So I have no evidence, right? No, no empirical evidence to say, Hey, this is like what's happening. Cause I don't know, you know, if anybody's going to, you know, sort of step up and says, yep, we do that. Right.

Is somebody just training a model or something? It is when people just keep on sending their resume. resumes into this void? Like, like what is going on here? So I have no evidence, right? No, no empirical evidence to say, Hey, this is like what's happening. Cause I don't know, you know, if anybody's going to, you know, sort of step up and says, yep, we do that. Right.

I don't, I don't think it would be a bit in their best interest, but I mean, something smells odd.

I don't, I don't think it would be a bit in their best interest, but I mean, something smells odd.

Yeah. This goes back to understanding the relationship between you and a for-profit entity.

Yeah. This goes back to understanding the relationship between you and a for-profit entity.

You are not a priority, my friend. You are a cog in the machine. And that's okay too. That's the thing. Like we all, I think in this market, we've all accepted that it is what it is. But you know what? You know what though? You know what? As they say, the pendulum will swing the other way. Mark my words. The pendulum will swing the other way, right? When it does, right?

You are not a priority, my friend. You are a cog in the machine. And that's okay too. That's the thing. Like we all, I think in this market, we've all accepted that it is what it is. But you know what? You know what though? You know what? As they say, the pendulum will swing the other way. Mark my words. The pendulum will swing the other way, right? When it does, right?

As a cog, don't be a douche. Don't go in, you know, walking in. You know what I mean? This was a huge mistake. This was a huge mistake. I told you, mofos, not to do what you did, but you did it. Now you're going to pay the price. I was indispensable. Don't be that guy. Don't be that guy or gal. Again, this is not... This is not about them, right? Ultimately, I think it's about you as a person.

As a cog, don't be a douche. Don't go in, you know, walking in. You know what I mean? This was a huge mistake. This was a huge mistake. I told you, mofos, not to do what you did, but you did it. Now you're going to pay the price. I was indispensable. Don't be that guy. Don't be that guy or gal. Again, this is not... This is not about them, right? Ultimately, I think it's about you as a person.

And I keep throwing that term around, and it's one that takes your heart greatly, like being a professional, right? There's a way a professional carries themselves. There's a way a professional does things, right? You're a professional, you get paid for money. Hopefully, you love what you do to get paid that money, right? But as a professional, you are always a professional.

And I keep throwing that term around, and it's one that takes your heart greatly, like being a professional, right? There's a way a professional carries themselves. There's a way a professional does things, right? You're a professional, you get paid for money. Hopefully, you love what you do to get paid that money, right? But as a professional, you are always a professional.

It would icing your cake. It would confirm. It would confirm your suspicions.

It would icing your cake. It would confirm. It would confirm your suspicions.

Good times, bad times, happy times, sad times, you are a professional.

Good times, bad times, happy times, sad times, you are a professional.

There's a natural thinning of the herd happening. or that has happened with any innovation, something that changes the way things have always been done. Whether it's in tech or in farming or you name an industry, there's innovation that comes and disrupts the way of things. And that should be expected.

There's a natural thinning of the herd happening. or that has happened with any innovation, something that changes the way things have always been done. Whether it's in tech or in farming or you name an industry, there's innovation that comes and disrupts the way of things. And that should be expected.

I think tech, for so long, we were so comfortable with the fact that basically we were untouchables. right? We, you know, no, no one could do what we did was, you know, magical, right? It was, it was absolute God. Yeah. Literally like, you know, we have, we have memes and, and movies and, and, and things like, like we were, we, we, we were, you know,

I think tech, for so long, we were so comfortable with the fact that basically we were untouchables. right? We, you know, no, no one could do what we did was, you know, magical, right? It was, it was absolute God. Yeah. Literally like, you know, we have, we have memes and, and movies and, and, and things like, like we were, we, we, we were, you know,

hailed as these powerful beings who they only were the ones who understood how to make the computer do things, right? That mere mortals couldn't even aspire to, right? And we went through that, you know, and that whole notion was sort of, you know, amplified back when in the Obama era, when we had all these learn to code, everybody should learn to code, like that whole thing, right?

hailed as these powerful beings who they only were the ones who understood how to make the computer do things, right? That mere mortals couldn't even aspire to, right? And we went through that, you know, and that whole notion was sort of, you know, amplified back when in the Obama era, when we had all these learn to code, everybody should learn to code, like that whole thing, right?

I mean, in the age of AI, anything's possible, you know?

I mean, in the age of AI, anything's possible, you know?

Remember that whole push towards everybody Left and right organizations were spinning up to run workshops. Heck, I ran GoBridge workshops. I would go in my local community in Baltimore. I would find people who wanted to learn how to code. I would get them in a room on a Saturday or Sunday and work with local businesses to get people into the room to learn how to code.

Remember that whole push towards everybody Left and right organizations were spinning up to run workshops. Heck, I ran GoBridge workshops. I would go in my local community in Baltimore. I would find people who wanted to learn how to code. I would get them in a room on a Saturday or Sunday and work with local businesses to get people into the room to learn how to code.

Because I truly believe, and I still do, that A career in tech, right, is a life-changing generational, you know, sort of impact kind of skill to develop, right? So we went through that phase. Now you barely hear about these workshops happening anymore. You know, dev boot camps, you barely hear about those things anymore, right? Because the market is not...

Because I truly believe, and I still do, that A career in tech, right, is a life-changing generational, you know, sort of impact kind of skill to develop, right? So we went through that phase. Now you barely hear about these workshops happening anymore. You know, dev boot camps, you barely hear about those things anymore, right? Because the market is not...

you know, suitable for these things, right? So all that to say is that now getting into tech is gonna be a little harder, or rather you can get into tech, but getting a job in tech is gonna be a little harder because there are different skills that are not expected that you need to bring to the table, right? understanding what an LLM is and how to work with them.

you know, suitable for these things, right? So all that to say is that now getting into tech is gonna be a little harder, or rather you can get into tech, but getting a job in tech is gonna be a little harder because there are different skills that are not expected that you need to bring to the table, right? understanding what an LLM is and how to work with them.

I'm not saying you need to go get into the math, the machine learning math of it all. You need to become a data scientist. But you need to know how to understand what an LLM is and how to use it, how to build a RAG system, which is basically the hello world of AI development. You need to understand how to build a RAG system. So these things need to not be foreign to you.

I'm not saying you need to go get into the math, the machine learning math of it all. You need to become a data scientist. But you need to know how to understand what an LLM is and how to use it, how to build a RAG system, which is basically the hello world of AI development. You need to understand how to build a RAG system. So these things need to not be foreign to you.

So the skill sets you need is just changing because there's new innovation. So I think there's always going to be room for software engineers. It's just the skill sets are changing. Will there be fewer jobs? Fewer jobs because those jobs now, the skill sets required for them, the bar is a bit higher.

So the skill sets you need is just changing because there's new innovation. So I think there's always going to be room for software engineers. It's just the skill sets are changing. Will there be fewer jobs? Fewer jobs because those jobs now, the skill sets required for them, the bar is a bit higher.

So some of those things that you used to hire a junior for, you can now outsource to an LLM or a Gen AI, some Gen AI technology. So people are becoming more productive. So it just changes the bar a little bit, but I don't think... I don't know, people are generating a lot of AI slop that people like me are going to have to come in and fix anyway. So I'm like, hey. I'm okay with that.

So some of those things that you used to hire a junior for, you can now outsource to an LLM or a Gen AI, some Gen AI technology. So people are becoming more productive. So it just changes the bar a little bit, but I don't think... I don't know, people are generating a lot of AI slop that people like me are going to have to come in and fix anyway. So I'm like, hey. I'm okay with that.

Yeah, yeah. By all means, everybody, if you're out there, you want to let AI generate your initial domain. app, you know, thing for you, please go right ahead. Go right ahead. Like make more of those things, please. No code it all day long. Get to it. No, no code it all day long. It's fine.

Yeah, yeah. By all means, everybody, if you're out there, you want to let AI generate your initial domain. app, you know, thing for you, please go right ahead. Go right ahead. Like make more of those things, please. No code it all day long. Get to it. No, no code it all day long. It's fine.

Just go right ahead because the only thing you're doing is making sure that I and my, and people like me are going to have, are going to have jobs. So that pendulum will swing.

Just go right ahead because the only thing you're doing is making sure that I and my, and people like me are going to have, are going to have jobs. So that pendulum will swing.

Who would have thought that your tech startup with a .io domain name as its identity would now be impacted by a 99-year lease coming up?

Who would have thought that your tech startup with a .io domain name as its identity would now be impacted by a 99-year lease coming up?

So the .io domain is... Right. It's technically going to be within the, if you want to call it, the jurisdiction of basically the Mauritius, right? Now, I would imagine that if they decided to get into the TLD business, right, they could become the administrators, right, for such a thing. More than likely, I think they will probably...

So the .io domain is... Right. It's technically going to be within the, if you want to call it, the jurisdiction of basically the Mauritius, right? Now, I would imagine that if they decided to get into the TLD business, right, they could become the administrators, right, for such a thing. More than likely, I think they will probably...

outsource the thing and right yeah bring it to one of those registrars right who would be more than happy to take that over and manage it and you know having the cost because that's going to be business for them and people register that io domains us developers and startups love the io domain so that's good business right there so and then yeah they can just have a partnership with some sort of registrar and and sort of outsource the whole thing or get into the business themselves but

outsource the thing and right yeah bring it to one of those registrars right who would be more than happy to take that over and manage it and you know having the cost because that's going to be business for them and people register that io domains us developers and startups love the io domain so that's good business right there so and then yeah they can just have a partnership with some sort of registrar and and sort of outsource the whole thing or get into the business themselves but

It's too much of an opportunity. There's too much money there to just let that go away. I don't think it's going to go away. And there's precedence for this, right? There's the .su for the Soviet Union, right? Which is still around. The .yu for Yugoslavia, right? These things are still around, right? So there's precedent for this. I don't think it's going to go away, honestly. .es, España.

It's too much of an opportunity. There's too much money there to just let that go away. I don't think it's going to go away. And there's precedence for this, right? There's the .su for the Soviet Union, right? Which is still around. The .yu for Yugoslavia, right? These things are still around, right? So there's precedent for this. I don't think it's going to go away, honestly. .es, España.

Is that at risk? I think that's still around.

Is that at risk? I think that's still around.

Yeah, yeah. And the British legacy, I guess, gets smaller a little bit.

Yeah, yeah. And the British legacy, I guess, gets smaller a little bit.

Gets smaller and smaller.

Gets smaller and smaller.

The British Indian Ocean. I know, right? But hey.

The British Indian Ocean. I know, right? But hey.

It is what it is.

It is what it is.

Right. Right, right. Maybe you list out all of the companies that use .io and say, hey. Sign the no more petition. Sign the no more petition.

Right. Right, right. Maybe you list out all of the companies that use .io and say, hey. Sign the no more petition. Sign the no more petition.

How near is it?

How near is it?

Yeah, that's not too far.

Yeah, that's not too far.

And come to the conference.

And come to the conference.

So this is like a big deal, like boosting everything. It's going down, man.

So this is like a big deal, like boosting everything. It's going down, man.

Man, man. Wow. I don't know. If you throw a scotch in there.

Man, man. Wow. I don't know. If you throw a scotch in there.

Smoked scotch. Ooh.

Smoked scotch. Ooh.

Would it be a flight, or would you drive?

Would it be a flight, or would you drive?

Oh, I'd probably fly. I'd probably fly through that nearest thing.

Oh, I'd probably fly. I'd probably fly through that nearest thing.

Cool.

Cool.

Hugh Glass. Hugh Glass. Huge ass.

Hugh Glass. Hugh Glass. Huge ass.

Thank you. Appreciate that. It's not always easy to be all those things, but you know, that's what makes it rewarding. Right.

Thank you. Appreciate that. It's not always easy to be all those things, but you know, that's what makes it rewarding. Right.

Things like that. Right.

Things like that. Right.

No matter how hard you have it in life, I've, I've come to learn that, you know, there's always probably somebody who was having it harder than you. Right. So you never know, right. If you cross paths with somebody, maybe a smile, maybe a hello, right. Something could be that one thing that tips them over and, you know, prevents them from, you know, from them tells from tipping over. Right.

No matter how hard you have it in life, I've, I've come to learn that, you know, there's always probably somebody who was having it harder than you. Right. So you never know, right. If you cross paths with somebody, maybe a smile, maybe a hello, right. Something could be that one thing that tips them over and, you know, prevents them from, you know, from them tells from tipping over. Right.

So yeah, it's just a, you know, try to keep it positive whenever you can.

So yeah, it's just a, you know, try to keep it positive whenever you can.

Right. And then it sounded, it was so funny. And I went ahead and registered it anyway, right? Because I wanted to, on the following show, I wanted to come back. Yeah, you wanted to say, I got it.

Right. And then it sounded, it was so funny. And I went ahead and registered it anyway, right? Because I wanted to, on the following show, I wanted to come back. Yeah, you wanted to say, I got it.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that the two of you nailed it on the head. It was more logistics than anything else, right? I didn't take it personally at all, right? Basically, nobody owed me anything, right? So it was a conversation that we're having Still trying to put together a show. Still trying to figure out how is this going to actually operate.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that the two of you nailed it on the head. It was more logistics than anything else, right? I didn't take it personally at all, right? Basically, nobody owed me anything, right? So it was a conversation that we're having Still trying to put together a show. Still trying to figure out how is this going to actually operate.

And, you know, actually it was Bill Kennedy who reached out and says, hey, this thing might be happening. Would you be interested? And things like that. And he started connecting the dots. And I'm not sure, you know, how you came across, you know, my name, Adam. But to me, that was the genesis of it, right? It was Bill says, hey.

And, you know, actually it was Bill Kennedy who reached out and says, hey, this thing might be happening. Would you be interested? And things like that. And he started connecting the dots. And I'm not sure, you know, how you came across, you know, my name, Adam. But to me, that was the genesis of it, right? It was Bill says, hey.

I think you'd be a good fit here, and let's see if we can make that happen, right? And then conversations went on, and I'm like, oh, this sounds great. And, you know, truth be told, I was very excited about it. You know, I was, I mean, my imposter syndrome was kicking very hard, right? Like, I'm like, oh, what am I going to do?

I think you'd be a good fit here, and let's see if we can make that happen, right? And then conversations went on, and I'm like, oh, this sounds great. And, you know, truth be told, I was very excited about it. You know, I was, I mean, my imposter syndrome was kicking very hard, right? Like, I'm like, oh, what am I going to do?

And, you know, I started, you know, like, trying to understand what do podcast hosts do? How do they interview? Like, I started studying, like, the process, right? So I wanted to do it as good a job as I could. But then, you know, by the time, you know, things started rolling, right, you know, We had that conversation. I was like, oh, I'm not going to lie. I was bummed.

And, you know, I started, you know, like, trying to understand what do podcast hosts do? How do they interview? Like, I started studying, like, the process, right? So I wanted to do it as good a job as I could. But then, you know, by the time, you know, things started rolling, right, you know, We had that conversation. I was like, oh, I'm not going to lie. I was bummed.

But, you know, you delivered the message sort of very kindly. And I understood why. And I'm like, you know what? Hopefully this is not my last opportunity, right? And I think you said so yourself, right? You know, we've got a lot of things in the works. You got a lot of things coming, you know, like let's keep that door open.

But, you know, you delivered the message sort of very kindly. And I understood why. And I'm like, you know what? Hopefully this is not my last opportunity, right? And I think you said so yourself, right? You know, we've got a lot of things in the works. You got a lot of things coming, you know, like let's keep that door open.

And yeah, and lo and behold, eventually I made it onto the team and the rest is history, right? So I try not to, when I think about it, there's a couple ways I could have handled it. I could have been like, oh, These guys, you know, like I could have been bitter about it, resentful, or I could be like, you know what? Almost got this one. Right. Let me just keep moving forward.

And yeah, and lo and behold, eventually I made it onto the team and the rest is history, right? So I try not to, when I think about it, there's a couple ways I could have handled it. I could have been like, oh, These guys, you know, like I could have been bitter about it, resentful, or I could be like, you know what? Almost got this one. Right. Let me just keep moving forward.

And hopefully another opportunity, you know, sort of shows up. But I keep doing my thing. Right. So I can't hand like my sort of contentment. Right. And my joie de vivre. Right. You know, I am a French speaker after all. I can't hand that over to somebody else. Right. Like I am responsible for my own happiness. So I can't be bitter and resentful.

And hopefully another opportunity, you know, sort of shows up. But I keep doing my thing. Right. So I can't hand like my sort of contentment. Right. And my joie de vivre. Right. You know, I am a French speaker after all. I can't hand that over to somebody else. Right. Like I am responsible for my own happiness. So I can't be bitter and resentful.

So if a user loads a web page, we want to tie together all the server requests that happened, any errors that happened, any metrics that were collected. And what that allows on the back end You don't just have to look at like three different graphs and sort of line them up in time and try to draw your own conclusions.

So if a user loads a web page, we want to tie together all the server requests that happened, any errors that happened, any metrics that were collected. And what that allows on the back end You don't just have to look at like three different graphs and sort of line them up in time and try to draw your own conclusions.

You can actually like analyze and slice and dice the data and say, hey, what did this metric look like for people with this operating system versus this metric look like for people with this operating system and actually get into those details. So this kind of idea of.

You can actually like analyze and slice and dice the data and say, hey, what did this metric look like for people with this operating system versus this metric look like for people with this operating system and actually get into those details. So this kind of idea of.

tying all of the telemetry data together using this concept of a trace ID or basically some key, I think is a big win for developers trying to diagnose and debug real-world systems and something that is, we're kind of charged the path for that for everybody.

tying all of the telemetry data together using this concept of a trace ID or basically some key, I think is a big win for developers trying to diagnose and debug real-world systems and something that is, we're kind of charged the path for that for everybody.

Let's see you get there.

Let's see you get there.

Yeah, I mean, I guess again, I'll just keep saying it maybe, but I think it kind of goes back to this debugability experience. When you are digging into an issue, you know, having a sort of a richer data model that's, you know, your logs are structured, they're sort of this hierarchical structure with spans.

Yeah, I mean, I guess again, I'll just keep saying it maybe, but I think it kind of goes back to this debugability experience. When you are digging into an issue, you know, having a sort of a richer data model that's, you know, your logs are structured, they're sort of this hierarchical structure with spans.

And not only is it just the spans that are structured, they're tied to errors, they're tied to other things. So when you have the data model that's kind of interconnected, it opens up all different kinds of analysis that were just kind of either very manual before, kind of guessing that maybe this log happened at the same time as this other thing, or we're just impossible.

And not only is it just the spans that are structured, they're tied to errors, they're tied to other things. So when you have the data model that's kind of interconnected, it opens up all different kinds of analysis that were just kind of either very manual before, kind of guessing that maybe this log happened at the same time as this other thing, or we're just impossible.

We get excited not only about the new kinds of issues that we can detect with that interconnected data model, but also just for every issue that we do detect, how easy it is to get to the bottom of it.

We get excited not only about the new kinds of issues that we can detect with that interconnected data model, but also just for every issue that we do detect, how easy it is to get to the bottom of it.

Yeah, one of the things that we're seeing is that in the past, people had separate systems where they had like logs on servers written files. They were maybe sending some metrics to Datadog or something like that or some other system. They were monitoring for errors with some product, maybe with Sentry.

Yeah, one of the things that we're seeing is that in the past, people had separate systems where they had like logs on servers written files. They were maybe sending some metrics to Datadog or something like that or some other system. They were monitoring for errors with some product, maybe with Sentry.

But more and more what we see is people want all of these sources of telemetry logically tied together somehow. And that's really what we're pursuing at Sentry now. We have this concept of a trace ID, which is kind of a key that ties together all of the pieces of data that are associated with the user action.

But more and more what we see is people want all of these sources of telemetry logically tied together somehow. And that's really what we're pursuing at Sentry now. We have this concept of a trace ID, which is kind of a key that ties together all of the pieces of data that are associated with the user action.

These are my people. I'm like, what is happening?

These are my people. I'm like, what is happening?

They do. And people come up and be like, how does she know everyone? I was like, she doesn't know these people. She doesn't know these children.

They do. And people come up and be like, how does she know everyone? I was like, she doesn't know these people. She doesn't know these children.

She gave them names.

She gave them names.

It's magic. It really is. That's hilarious. Should we talk about tech at some point or are we just a movie, 90s nostalgia?

It's magic. It really is. That's hilarious. Should we talk about tech at some point or are we just a movie, 90s nostalgia?

It's like Disney. We go East Coast, West Coast, you know?

It's like Disney. We go East Coast, West Coast, you know?

Jurassic Park holds up, though.

Jurassic Park holds up, though.

Bank stock. I appreciate that. And so it was like, well, you just have to remove the stress. I'm like, I can't do that until my stock drops. Thank you.

Bank stock. I appreciate that. And so it was like, well, you just have to remove the stress. I'm like, I can't do that until my stock drops. Thank you.

You're good.

You're good.

Wait, have you ever burned off your eyebrows?

Wait, have you ever burned off your eyebrows?

Oh, yeah. Seriously? That's amazing.

Oh, yeah. Seriously? That's amazing.

407.

407.

So please, please start things so I can sponsor them. I would really appreciate it. Thank you.

So please, please start things so I can sponsor them. I would really appreciate it. Thank you.

There you go. Yeah.

There you go. Yeah.

I enjoy that you enjoy it. You're like, no, I don't know you.

I enjoy that you enjoy it. You're like, no, I don't know you.

I don't know if this guy's going to replace Bill Paxton. Like Bill Paxton had a magic to him.

I don't know if this guy's going to replace Bill Paxton. Like Bill Paxton had a magic to him.

He was cool as shit.

He was cool as shit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When we first launched the ability to collect tracing data, we were really emphasizing the performance aspect of that, the kind of application performance monitoring aspect, you know, because you have these things that are spans that measure how long something takes.

When we first launched the ability to collect tracing data, we were really emphasizing the performance aspect of that, the kind of application performance monitoring aspect, you know, because you have these things that are spans that measure how long something takes.

And so the natural thing is to try to graph their durations and think about their durations and, you know, warn somebody if the durations are getting too long. But what we've realized is that the performance stuff ends up being just a bunch of gauges to look at. And it's not super actionable.

And so the natural thing is to try to graph their durations and think about their durations and, you know, warn somebody if the durations are getting too long. But what we've realized is that the performance stuff ends up being just a bunch of gauges to look at. And it's not super actionable.

Sentry is all about this notion of debug ability and actually making it easier to fix the problem, not just sort of giving you more gauges. A lot of what we're trying to do now is focus a little bit less on the sort of just the performance monitoring side of things and turn tracing into a tool that actually aids the debug ability of problems.

Sentry is all about this notion of debug ability and actually making it easier to fix the problem, not just sort of giving you more gauges. A lot of what we're trying to do now is focus a little bit less on the sort of just the performance monitoring side of things and turn tracing into a tool that actually aids the debug ability of problems.