David E. Sanger

That at this point, the world is going to assume that the United States always has the ability to turn back in on itself and that each region of the world and even our allies are going to have to learn to depend on themselves.

And I don't think that there is anything we can do over the next generation, no matter who becomes elected president, to make them believe that the U.S.

is always going to be with them.

I think the fundamental trust in the U.S.

as the defender of a certain set of concepts of the West has been shattered for some time.

Thank you, Natalie.

Well, certainly that's my take.

And after it leaked, the first thing I wrote was it read like it had been drafted in the Kremlin.

And the reason for that is parts of it, it turned out, essentially had been because they talked to the Russian representative as they began to develop this weeks before they got to the Ukrainians.

And so the first draft of it was incredibly pro-Russian and basically gave Vladimir Putin everything he wanted.

Now, when you go and you probe with the administration, how did this happen?

Their immediate answer is, well, we were trying to replicate our success in Gaza.

Now, Rachel, you remember that because we talked about it a lot and you and I were in Israel together when that agreement came to fruition and the hostages were released.

And that also was a 20-point plan, right?

And they had put it together by sitting down with the Israelis and

and getting a list of their demands and their red lines and all that, and then through cutouts and representatives basically doing the same thing with Hamas, and then going back to try to force compromises in certain areas.

And so soon after the president returned from Israel,

Jared Kushner, his son-in-law, who the president had called in on this one again and who had played a central role in the Gaza negotiations, and Steve Witkoff, his envoy for everything, and J.D.

Vance, the vice president, and Marco Rubio, who's got two important titles here, secretary of state and national security advisor, all met together.

And basically, they argued to the president, hey, let's try with Ukraine and Russia.