David Goodwin

I think those two questions will often tease out answers that may surprise most parents. I think this is what, when Pete Hegseth and I wrote Battle for the American Mind,

I think those two questions will often tease out answers that may surprise most parents. I think this is what, when Pete Hegseth and I wrote Battle for the American Mind,

He was fascinated and brought in some really good material on what he called the COVID-16-19 project, which was back at the time, parents watching over the shoulders of their kids and realizing that what they were learning at school was very different than what the parents thought they were learning at school.

He was fascinated and brought in some really good material on what he called the COVID-16-19 project, which was back at the time, parents watching over the shoulders of their kids and realizing that what they were learning at school was very different than what the parents thought they were learning at school.

Well, there's a lot of answers to that, but in our parlance in the classical Christian world, which is the area I'm familiar with, it's the cultivation of wisdom and virtue. Pretty simple set of qualifiers there, but it takes a bit to unpack.

Well, there's a lot of answers to that, but in our parlance in the classical Christian world, which is the area I'm familiar with, it's the cultivation of wisdom and virtue. Pretty simple set of qualifiers there, but it takes a bit to unpack.

So that's why some of these questions I might suggest that people ask may seem a little bit rudimentary.

So that's why some of these questions I might suggest that people ask may seem a little bit rudimentary.

I have been surprised that even in high schools that's not happening anymore.

I have been surprised that even in high schools that's not happening anymore.

I know it's possible because I've met them. Oh, come on.

I know it's possible because I've met them. Oh, come on.

Yes, it is. It is very strange.

Yes, it is. It is very strange.

If it weren't for the fact that the kids were standing in front of me telling me this, I probably wouldn't have believed it. But it's it's not just that it's, you know, the quality of what they're reading, the content of what they're studying.

If it weren't for the fact that the kids were standing in front of me telling me this, I probably wouldn't have believed it. But it's it's not just that it's, you know, the quality of what they're reading, the content of what they're studying.

You know, in this day and age, certainly one thing I would ask if I were a parent looking at a school is when do you start teaching cursive or do you start teaching cursive?

You know, in this day and age, certainly one thing I would ask if I were a parent looking at a school is when do you start teaching cursive or do you start teaching cursive?

Most of them have gotten rid of it.

Most of them have gotten rid of it.

It forms an aesthetic, which is kind of a – in classical education, we talk about the three transcendentals, truth, goodness, and beauty. Those are the three axes, if you will, kind of if you think of it like a Cartesian plane, just like height, width, and depth. In the world of ideas, in the world of content and material, everything is measured in those three axes, truth, goodness, and beauty.

It forms an aesthetic, which is kind of a – in classical education, we talk about the three transcendentals, truth, goodness, and beauty. Those are the three axes, if you will, kind of if you think of it like a Cartesian plane, just like height, width, and depth. In the world of ideas, in the world of content and material, everything is measured in those three axes, truth, goodness, and beauty.

And the beauty axis has been forgotten for a long time.

And the beauty axis has been forgotten for a long time.

If you just want to capture a little bit of this, just look at the Declaration of Independence and look at the signatures on it. And John Hancock's signature is the one we often think of because it's so large. But he had men of his day actually sought to create a distinctive image.

If you just want to capture a little bit of this, just look at the Declaration of Independence and look at the signatures on it. And John Hancock's signature is the one we often think of because it's so large. But he had men of his day actually sought to create a distinctive image.

cursive hand because it was viewed as part of their refinement to become a better person because they're they had beauty even in the hand in which they wrote and um this is something that we teach kids you know so that that's kind of a maybe more of an ethereal uh answer no i i'm i'm tracking But there's also the fine motor skills that you gain from that.

cursive hand because it was viewed as part of their refinement to become a better person because they're they had beauty even in the hand in which they wrote and um this is something that we teach kids you know so that that's kind of a maybe more of an ethereal uh answer no i i'm i'm tracking But there's also the fine motor skills that you gain from that.

Our kids' fine motor skills at this point are really defined by tapping iPad screens. I think using a pen to write in a very precise way is a way to build that. And then there's just the aspect that cursive is an efficient way to write. And there are times when you should write in a book.

Our kids' fine motor skills at this point are really defined by tapping iPad screens. I think using a pen to write in a very precise way is a way to build that. And then there's just the aspect that cursive is an efficient way to write. And there are times when you should write in a book.

And if you've got a good teacher, if it's not just somebody who wants you to accomplish it.

And if you've got a good teacher, if it's not just somebody who wants you to accomplish it.

I didn't find it, but I am the president of it, have been for the last decade or so.

I didn't find it, but I am the president of it, have been for the last decade or so.

The best teachers are the ones who have had some background in... in, um, you know, uh, script writing like, um, calligraphers do calligraphy writing. Those teachers can really bring it alive for the kids. It's, it's like anything else in classical education.

The best teachers are the ones who have had some background in... in, um, you know, uh, script writing like, um, calligraphers do calligraphy writing. Those teachers can really bring it alive for the kids. It's, it's like anything else in classical education.

Yes, that's the one that I started.

Yes, that's the one that I started.

Yes. In fact, it ties back to the beauty thing. Of course. That was just perfected in being. I think Churchill said, and I always botch this, but we make our buildings and then our buildings make us. The idea that the architecture influences. So the building you were in was designed from the ground up to be a school. It's beautiful.

Yes. In fact, it ties back to the beauty thing. Of course. That was just perfected in being. I think Churchill said, and I always botch this, but we make our buildings and then our buildings make us. The idea that the architecture influences. So the building you were in was designed from the ground up to be a school. It's beautiful.

And it's designed to cultivate in kids an appreciation for old tradition and for a love of great art. And so that's why that's in there. But I think if you look around at your typical public school, it speaks as well architecturally. Typically, it's highly utilitarian.

And it's designed to cultivate in kids an appreciation for old tradition and for a love of great art. And so that's why that's in there. But I think if you look around at your typical public school, it speaks as well architecturally. Typically, it's highly utilitarian.

Yeah. It's utilitarian. It's functional. It doesn't point up. It does not point up. It does not play to the humanity of the students. It plays... to them as though they're computers. They're widgets. Yes, you could put a bunch of computers in those buildings and they would very easily be... It could be a data center. Exactly, exactly.

Yeah. It's utilitarian. It's functional. It doesn't point up. It does not point up. It does not play to the humanity of the students. It plays... to them as though they're computers. They're widgets. Yes, you could put a bunch of computers in those buildings and they would very easily be... It could be a data center. Exactly, exactly.

I do think it is, and I think it is for several reasons. Certainly, Trump has shown us that there is... There is a way forward. There's a way to push back against the cultural Marxism that has dominated this country over the last many years. So I think that classical Christian education, it plays a particular role.

I do think it is, and I think it is for several reasons. Certainly, Trump has shown us that there is... There is a way forward. There's a way to push back against the cultural Marxism that has dominated this country over the last many years. So I think that classical Christian education, it plays a particular role.

I think that parents are finding it... I would say it's the dominant alternate form to the public schools right now. It's coming in a variety of forms. Some of them charters, some... classical Christian privates, you know, various forms of it.

I think that parents are finding it... I would say it's the dominant alternate form to the public schools right now. It's coming in a variety of forms. Some of them charters, some... classical Christian privates, you know, various forms of it.

Yes, there is. And the energy, it's a little frightening for some of us. I've been in this 30 years. And at first, no one cared what we were doing because no one knew we existed. And now people are starting to look. We're getting criticism from quarters trying to restore that dastardly Western that they would rather have go away. Because they want the West to go away. They want the West gone.

Yes, there is. And the energy, it's a little frightening for some of us. I've been in this 30 years. And at first, no one cared what we were doing because no one knew we existed. And now people are starting to look. We're getting criticism from quarters trying to restore that dastardly Western that they would rather have go away. Because they want the West to go away. They want the West gone.

And the thing that perpetuates the tradition is the enemy. And so they definitely are starting to notice classical education, certainly what's happened in Florida with the growth. DeSantis is pushing the entire state, whether it's the collegiate level or the K-12 level. In this direction. in this classical direction. So I think it's our time.

And the thing that perpetuates the tradition is the enemy. And so they definitely are starting to notice classical education, certainly what's happened in Florida with the growth. DeSantis is pushing the entire state, whether it's the collegiate level or the K-12 level. In this direction. in this classical direction. So I think it's our time.

Well, in a word, it would be the enculturation of children as opposed to informing them, just giving them a lot of facts. So if you look at the industrial education that the progressives created in the early part of the 20th century, it was geared almost exclusively towards vocation.

Well, in a word, it would be the enculturation of children as opposed to informing them, just giving them a lot of facts. So if you look at the industrial education that the progressives created in the early part of the 20th century, it was geared almost exclusively towards vocation.

ACCS is Protestant. I would say my friends in the Catholic movement would say it's not. Really? Okay. And it's odd.

ACCS is Protestant. I would say my friends in the Catholic movement would say it's not. Really? Okay. And it's odd.

There are, and they're very good. Yes. So I'm not totally— No, you're not. The thing was is that in the mid-1900s—I'm sorry, mid-1800s—the Blaine Amendments were put in to try and freeze out the Catholics. So the Catholics formed their own school systems that then rode right alongside the progressive school system.

There are, and they're very good. Yes. So I'm not totally— No, you're not. The thing was is that in the mid-1900s—I'm sorry, mid-1800s—the Blaine Amendments were put in to try and freeze out the Catholics. So the Catholics formed their own school systems that then rode right alongside the progressive school system.

Well, the Blaine Amendment, it's named after a senator who tried to pass it nationally. And basically, it was the Protestant Church so despised the Catholic Church in America at the time that they were trying to freeze the Catholics out of religion. education. They did not want any Catholic education whatsoever. Backfired. Catholics have more schools than Protestants. Exactly.

Well, the Blaine Amendment, it's named after a senator who tried to pass it nationally. And basically, it was the Protestant Church so despised the Catholic Church in America at the time that they were trying to freeze the Catholics out of religion. education. They did not want any Catholic education whatsoever. Backfired. Catholics have more schools than Protestants. Exactly.

They do, because the Blaine Amendment said you can't spend any money, any federal money, or any state money on religious education. And so that pushed the Catholics out. They formed their own system. That system paralleled and pretty much took on the progressive form in the early part of the 20th century when the progressives revolutionized education in the United States. It was a big movement.

They do, because the Blaine Amendment said you can't spend any money, any federal money, or any state money on religious education. And so that pushed the Catholics out. They formed their own system. That system paralleled and pretty much took on the progressive form in the early part of the 20th century when the progressives revolutionized education in the United States. It was a big movement.

And so those, what are often called diocese schools within the Catholic Church, can oftentimes be very progressive in their form. But the Catholic Church is very traditional, and so it's recovering quickly its old form, the form of education that was native to those schools originally, and they're putting it back into place rapidly. So I'm very optimistic about that.

And so those, what are often called diocese schools within the Catholic Church, can oftentimes be very progressive in their form. But the Catholic Church is very traditional, and so it's recovering quickly its old form, the form of education that was native to those schools originally, and they're putting it back into place rapidly. So I'm very optimistic about that.

I'm excited about what they're contributing to the movement because they have a very deep history.

I'm excited about what they're contributing to the movement because they have a very deep history.

Well, you can learn more at classicalchristian.org. That is our main site that directs people in any which direction you want to go, whether you want to teach in our schools, whether you want to find a school, start a school. So I would advise that you start there.

Well, you can learn more at classicalchristian.org. That is our main site that directs people in any which direction you want to go, whether you want to teach in our schools, whether you want to find a school, start a school. So I would advise that you start there.

Well, just visit one of these schools. I agree. You just walk in. You live in Boise. You got to check it out. Yeah. Well, any one of them in any state, if you go in during operations, I think, Charlie, you were there after hours a little bit. I can't remember. But So if you go during operations, no matter what you see, you'll notice it's different.

Well, just visit one of these schools. I agree. You just walk in. You live in Boise. You got to check it out. Yeah. Well, any one of them in any state, if you go in during operations, I think, Charlie, you were there after hours a little bit. I can't remember. But So if you go during operations, no matter what you see, you'll notice it's different.

teach kids how to make money and the classical education that had been there for years prior had always done a sufficient job of that but it had been more focused on the enculturation and I think that's a lot of what happened to America when we took away the American culture it started to decay and over the course of about 100 years we find ourselves where we have been the last few.

teach kids how to make money and the classical education that had been there for years prior had always done a sufficient job of that but it had been more focused on the enculturation and I think that's a lot of what happened to America when we took away the American culture it started to decay and over the course of about 100 years we find ourselves where we have been the last few.

He's a wonderful guy. And the work that you guys are doing, you know, you very much recognize this space.

He's a wonderful guy. And the work that you guys are doing, you know, you very much recognize this space.

Correct.

Correct.

Well, we're trying to cultivate the tools of knowledge. How do you come to know things? And that's a very different thing.

Well, we're trying to cultivate the tools of knowledge. How do you come to know things? And that's a very different thing.

Well, what I mean by that is... In the old world, it was understood that knowledge isn't so easy to come by. It's easy to get information. We see that all over the place. And then we have people calling misinformation.

Well, what I mean by that is... In the old world, it was understood that knowledge isn't so easy to come by. It's easy to get information. We see that all over the place. And then we have people calling misinformation.

The real challenge is getting students who can discern truth from falsehood. As they learn. And so our focus is more about teaching them how to discern what is true than it is just telling them what the truth is.

The real challenge is getting students who can discern truth from falsehood. As they learn. And so our focus is more about teaching them how to discern what is true than it is just telling them what the truth is.

So that combination is some of what you saw when you were at the school in Boise, where all of our schools have some form of this, where it's conducted at least in the high school and usually the junior high around a large table.

So that combination is some of what you saw when you were at the school in Boise, where all of our schools have some form of this, where it's conducted at least in the high school and usually the junior high around a large table.

where the students are taking apart ancient texts and trying to understand what is the truth contained in these and what is the falsehood in these, and can we align these with the truth of Jesus Christ and the scriptures, and that combination of exercises forms up this skill of acquiring knowledge, and that's the rare skill in our day today.

where the students are taking apart ancient texts and trying to understand what is the truth contained in these and what is the falsehood in these, and can we align these with the truth of Jesus Christ and the scriptures, and that combination of exercises forms up this skill of acquiring knowledge, and that's the rare skill in our day today.

Well, they intentionally designed it that way in about 1915. Mr. Dewey? Yes, John Dewey, our… Arch nemesis of liberty. Exactly. He thought that that kind of education that really taught students to discern knowledge wasn't helpful in an industrial economy. We needed to train… basically servile students to be able to do jobs.

Well, they intentionally designed it that way in about 1915. Mr. Dewey? Yes, John Dewey, our… Arch nemesis of liberty. Exactly. He thought that that kind of education that really taught students to discern knowledge wasn't helpful in an industrial economy. We needed to train… basically servile students to be able to do jobs.

Now, in his time, it was mostly factory work, but it later became engineering or science or STEM. Instead of looking at the citizen and saying what makes a citizen capable of self-governance, which is what our founding fathers were involved with, that's why they were all classically educated. They just understood and assumed this.

Now, in his time, it was mostly factory work, but it later became engineering or science or STEM. Instead of looking at the citizen and saying what makes a citizen capable of self-governance, which is what our founding fathers were involved with, that's why they were all classically educated. They just understood and assumed this.

And so John Dewey brings this in and our schools are immediately reoriented towards just basically programming kids to do, at first it was science and that kind of thing, but you had the Maoist revolution and we learned a few things, the progressives learned a few things from that Maoist revolution. I'm talking about the cultural revolution of the 1960s, not the original one. When Mao realized that

And so John Dewey brings this in and our schools are immediately reoriented towards just basically programming kids to do, at first it was science and that kind of thing, but you had the Maoist revolution and we learned a few things, the progressives learned a few things from that Maoist revolution. I'm talking about the cultural revolution of the 1960s, not the original one. When Mao realized that

I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.

I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.

The best way to establish a communist government was to enculturate the people to desire communism. And so he took over the educational systems and indoctrinated them in that way. And that's exactly what the progressives did in the latter half of the 20th century.

The best way to establish a communist government was to enculturate the people to desire communism. And so he took over the educational systems and indoctrinated them in that way. And that's exactly what the progressives did in the latter half of the 20th century.

Well, yes, because whatever job you prepare them for, at least in this economy, I mean, at least at the pragmatic level, is going to be gone by the time they graduate anyway. So it's a pointless exercise, except one job that's always there, which is discerning truth, to understand, to know, to learn how to know.

Well, yes, because whatever job you prepare them for, at least in this economy, I mean, at least at the pragmatic level, is going to be gone by the time they graduate anyway. So it's a pointless exercise, except one job that's always there, which is discerning truth, to understand, to know, to learn how to know.

You know, Dorothy Sayers and her her essay on education that she did in the 1940s was titled The Lost Tools of Learning. And what she said in that essay was that we used to teach kids the tools of learning. And now we don't at a time. And I'm paraphrasing her at a time when it's never been so important.

You know, Dorothy Sayers and her her essay on education that she did in the 1940s was titled The Lost Tools of Learning. And what she said in that essay was that we used to teach kids the tools of learning. And now we don't at a time. And I'm paraphrasing her at a time when it's never been so important.

Because radio and television and books are readily available and all these ideas are coming at these kids and they have no idea how to discern what is true and what's not true. So, of course, again, our nemesis in the progressive world, their idea is we'll just call it all fake news or false news. What's the term they use?

Because radio and television and books are readily available and all these ideas are coming at these kids and they have no idea how to discern what is true and what's not true. So, of course, again, our nemesis in the progressive world, their idea is we'll just call it all fake news or false news. What's the term they use?

Disinformation. We'll call it that. And, you know, one side calls it fake. The other is disinformation. And in reality, the kids need to be able to listen to it all and figure out what's true. And that's the skill that we teach. And really understand what it means to be a citizen. Right. Well, that is a big part of the wisdom, wisdom and virtue.

Disinformation. We'll call it that. And, you know, one side calls it fake. The other is disinformation. And in reality, the kids need to be able to listen to it all and figure out what's true. And that's the skill that we teach. And really understand what it means to be a citizen. Right. Well, that is a big part of the wisdom, wisdom and virtue.

When it comes to the founding fathers, this was their main focus for education was wisdom and virtue because they knew. And it was visible because as soon as the revolution was over and the country was established, you know, You have Alexis de Tocqueville come here and he observes this about the country, that it's oddly educated, that farmers actually have read Cicero or Caesar.

When it comes to the founding fathers, this was their main focus for education was wisdom and virtue because they knew. And it was visible because as soon as the revolution was over and the country was established, you know, You have Alexis de Tocqueville come here and he observes this about the country, that it's oddly educated, that farmers actually have read Cicero or Caesar.

And he's more used to the European. Of course, he was French. He was used to the European model where you've got. The aristocrats who are educated in the greats and then the average farmer just does what he's told to do. A very different picture here in America. And that's what de Tocqueville said kept us going.

And he's more used to the European. Of course, he was French. He was used to the European model where you've got. The aristocrats who are educated in the greats and then the average farmer just does what he's told to do. A very different picture here in America. And that's what de Tocqueville said kept us going.

Well, it certainly does on behalf on the part of the student, the teachers as well.

Well, it certainly does on behalf on the part of the student, the teachers as well.

You know, it's harder, but it's not necessarily more drudgery because kids tend to react well when you challenge them, when you ask them to think.

You know, it's harder, but it's not necessarily more drudgery because kids tend to react well when you challenge them, when you ask them to think.

Yes. And and the works that we use, the great books of the West, the Bible, there's a lot of depth in those. And so I think a lot of kids, if we think back to our our public school experience, certainly I was in the public schools you were, I think, for a time. That's right. I see it more as tedium than than anything else.

Yes. And and the works that we use, the great books of the West, the Bible, there's a lot of depth in those. And so I think a lot of kids, if we think back to our our public school experience, certainly I was in the public schools you were, I think, for a time. That's right. I see it more as tedium than than anything else.

And it wasn't that it was hard or easy because some of my classes were hard. It was that it just didn't seem to have a point.

And it wasn't that it was hard or easy because some of my classes were hard. It was that it just didn't seem to have a point.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, we start with the precept that there is absolute truth. And the reason that's important is that everything else becomes pointless if you don't believe that, right? What's the point in reading old books with ideas if none of them They don't point towards anything. So, yes, you have to start there. But when you start there, the world opens up. It's a much bigger form of education.

Well, we start with the precept that there is absolute truth. And the reason that's important is that everything else becomes pointless if you don't believe that, right? What's the point in reading old books with ideas if none of them They don't point towards anything. So, yes, you have to start there. But when you start there, the world opens up. It's a much bigger form of education.

These kids, the most common things I hear from graduates of our schools when they return is that they've gotten to college and they find it, again, to be tedium. Our schools are robust enough that obviously they can do the work.

These kids, the most common things I hear from graduates of our schools when they return is that they've gotten to college and they find it, again, to be tedium. Our schools are robust enough that obviously they can do the work.

Well, Hillsdale is an exception for sure. There's a handful of those exceptions. But for most kids that go to the colleges, they can't find anybody who has an interesting mind, anybody who wants to discuss anything. Everything is superficial. So I think that's a lot of what we try and do in our schools is just give kids a love for depth, a love for learning. Yeah.

Well, Hillsdale is an exception for sure. There's a handful of those exceptions. But for most kids that go to the colleges, they can't find anybody who has an interesting mind, anybody who wants to discuss anything. Everything is superficial. So I think that's a lot of what we try and do in our schools is just give kids a love for depth, a love for learning. Yeah.

They're more interested in inquiring about things. new ideas than they are arguing about them. Because they're curious. That's what we try and build. It's called wonder in our form.

They're more interested in inquiring about things. new ideas than they are arguing about them. Because they're curious. That's what we try and build. It's called wonder in our form.

Yes, exactly.

Yes, exactly.

And I don't know if they ever believed that, but that's certainly what they want us to believe. Because cultural Marxism has a very strong set of ideals that are transcendent in their view. In their view, for example, wealth is necessarily evil or the equity of all, you know, leveling of all wealth, leveling of all wealth. Status and stature is an ultimate good.

And I don't know if they ever believed that, but that's certainly what they want us to believe. Because cultural Marxism has a very strong set of ideals that are transcendent in their view. In their view, for example, wealth is necessarily evil or the equity of all, you know, leveling of all wealth, leveling of all wealth. Status and stature is an ultimate good.

And that's that's an unquestionable good in, I think, most progressive schools. And it's one that needs to be questioned.

And that's that's an unquestionable good in, I think, most progressive schools. And it's one that needs to be questioned.

You know, that's funny. These may sound a little bit strange, so I hope that you're going to take them.

You know, that's funny. These may sound a little bit strange, so I hope that you're going to take them.

Yes, so the first one I would ask is, at what age do they read their full book, cover to cover? Most schools these days have moved to just short little passages of readings. Really? Yeah, the books. And then the second question, beyond what is the age at which they read their first full book with chapters in it, not small readers, but an actual book with chapters, say—

Yes, so the first one I would ask is, at what age do they read their full book, cover to cover? Most schools these days have moved to just short little passages of readings. Really? Yeah, the books. And then the second question, beyond what is the age at which they read their first full book with chapters in it, not small readers, but an actual book with chapters, say—

Little House on the Prairie or something like that. Old Yeller. Yeah, Old Yeller, any of those. Then the next question would be, what is the greatest book that you guys read at this school? And by that, I mean something that's older than 100 years old. Just any book that's older than 100 years old that you read.

Little House on the Prairie or something like that. Old Yeller. Yeah, Old Yeller, any of those. Then the next question would be, what is the greatest book that you guys read at this school? And by that, I mean something that's older than 100 years old. Just any book that's older than 100 years old that you read.