David Marchese

I think there is a lot of debate and discussion about the extent to which Zionism and Judaism are intertwined.

And also, then it ends up getting into questions of whether criticism of Zionism is de facto anti-Semitic.

But my sense is that it's not that difficult for you to separate the political project of Zionism from feelings about the Jewish people.

You know, you write at length about your friendship with a Jewish Israeli, Henry Abramovich.

Are there aspects of your friendship with Henry that might serve as a model for larger groups of people in their political relationships?

When have your friendships with Jewish Israelis been most severely tested?

What you just described connects for me to something you wrote in your book, What Does Israel Fear from Palestine?

In that book, you wrote about a conversation you had with an Israeli friend, and you wrote, and I'll just read it to you.

Every time I mentioned an atrocity committed against Palestinian civilians by the Israeli army in Gaza, he brought up a criminal act committed by Hamas on October 7th.

Then with a sad voice, he assured me that the Israelis are suffering from trauma and are grieving.

And it's completely understandable to me that people have a strong desire and maybe even a need to have their suffering recognized.

But is there a way to address that need on both sides without invoking a kind of unproductive, endless competition of suffering?

Yeah.

Can you tell me a little bit more about what you see as that double consciousness?

You've referred to Israel's actions as being self-destructive for Israel.

And I think for many who see Israel's actions as actually about self-preservation, it might be hard for them to understand how someone...

could interpret those actions as self-destructive.

So can you explain what you see as Israel's self-destructive tendencies?

I want to sort of zoom out for a second and bring up an idea that is kind of about larger narratives.

So when we talk about a year like 1948, that's a year that is subject to highly competitive narratives.