David Marchese

Bregman is a historian and writer who has written best-selling books arguing that the world is better than we're typically led to believe, and also that making it even better and more equitable is within our reach. Sounds a little off these days, doesn't it?

Bregman is a historian and writer who has written best-selling books arguing that the world is better than we're typically led to believe, and also that making it even better and more equitable is within our reach. Sounds a little off these days, doesn't it?

Even Bregman is willing to admit that the arguments in his first two books, which are 2020's Humankind and 2017's Utopia for Realists, land a little less convincingly today than when they were first published. But his new book, Moral Ambition, Stop Wasting Your Talent and Start Making a Difference, is his attempt to meet the current moment by redirecting self-interest into a kind of social good.

Even Bregman is willing to admit that the arguments in his first two books, which are 2020's Humankind and 2017's Utopia for Realists, land a little less convincingly today than when they were first published. But his new book, Moral Ambition, Stop Wasting Your Talent and Start Making a Difference, is his attempt to meet the current moment by redirecting self-interest into a kind of social good.

He's trying to incentivize the kind of people I mentioned earlier, society's brightest and most privileged, to turn away from what he sees as meaningless and hollow, albeit lucrative, white-collar jobs in favor of far more exciting and even self-aggrandizing work that has the possibility of changing the world.

He's trying to incentivize the kind of people I mentioned earlier, society's brightest and most privileged, to turn away from what he sees as meaningless and hollow, albeit lucrative, white-collar jobs in favor of far more exciting and even self-aggrandizing work that has the possibility of changing the world.

That's also the driving idea behind a school he's co-founded called the School for Moral Ambition, which you can think of as a kind of incubator for positive social impact. The big question for me, the source of some real skepticism, is how exactly he plans on convincing people to make that change and rethink their own values. Here's my conversation with Rutger Bregman.

That's also the driving idea behind a school he's co-founded called the School for Moral Ambition, which you can think of as a kind of incubator for positive social impact. The big question for me, the source of some real skepticism, is how exactly he plans on convincing people to make that change and rethink their own values. Here's my conversation with Rutger Bregman.

Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me, David. So your new book is essentially an argument for why and how talented, high-achieving people should direct their energies toward doing more good in the world, towards more morally ambitious behavior. Do you see your writing as morally ambitious?

Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me, David. So your new book is essentially an argument for why and how talented, high-achieving people should direct their energies toward doing more good in the world, towards more morally ambitious behavior. Do you see your writing as morally ambitious?

So what steps have you taken since writing the book to get off the sidelines into the arena?

So what steps have you taken since writing the book to get off the sidelines into the arena?

I saw that statistic in your book. I was surprised that the number was as high as 45%. But of course, materialism is real. A desire for status is real. People want to make money. They want to be well financially compensated. So how do you incentivize someone who might otherwise be tempted to go into a line of work that I think you see as basically morally vacuous at best?

I saw that statistic in your book. I was surprised that the number was as high as 45%. But of course, materialism is real. A desire for status is real. People want to make money. They want to be well financially compensated. So how do you incentivize someone who might otherwise be tempted to go into a line of work that I think you see as basically morally vacuous at best?

How would you incentivize them to Instead, pick a career that is morally ambitious.

How would you incentivize them to Instead, pick a career that is morally ambitious.

You know, there's sort of the dismissal of people's career choices as boring or the idea that, you know, if they're pursuing material wealth, you know, you're sort of holding your nose about them. And there is sort of that tone of, light sarcasm or a snideness that shows up in the book also. And I was wondering, why make the choice to communicate that way?

You know, there's sort of the dismissal of people's career choices as boring or the idea that, you know, if they're pursuing material wealth, you know, you're sort of holding your nose about them. And there is sort of that tone of, light sarcasm or a snideness that shows up in the book also. And I was wondering, why make the choice to communicate that way?

Yeah. What are the metrics you'll use or how will you determine whether or not your school is successful?

Yeah. What are the metrics you'll use or how will you determine whether or not your school is successful?