Destiny

Yeah, and I agree with you 100%. But again, I feel like we're on the conservative merry-go-round then of never wanting to address any- Not a conservative merry-go-round. I can give you 10 ways. Well, sure. But so here would be the merry-go-round. I would say that there is a minimum funding for schools that I think would help children.

Yeah, and I agree with you 100%. But again, I feel like we're on the conservative merry-go-round then of never wanting to address any- Not a conservative merry-go-round. I can give you 10 ways. Well, sure. But so here would be the merry-go-round. I would say that there is a minimum funding for schools that I think would help children.

And then we go, well, the thing that would help them the most is two-parent households. Then I go, okay, well, two-parent households actually aren't the problem. The issue is access to things like birth controls that people don't have children early on. But the issue isn't actually birth control.

And then we go, well, the thing that would help them the most is two-parent households. Then I go, okay, well, two-parent households actually aren't the problem. The issue is access to things like birth controls that people don't have children early on. But the issue isn't actually birth control.

The issue is actually you need a certain amount of money to move out early and to get married and then to have a two-parent household. So it's actually like economic opportunity. No, just two-parent households. That's it. Don't fuck people before you're married and have babies. Sure. Done. That's great.

The issue is actually you need a certain amount of money to move out early and to get married and then to have a two-parent household. So it's actually like economic opportunity. No, just two-parent households. That's it. Don't fuck people before you're married and have babies. Sure. Done. That's great.

We can say that and try to fight against, you know, however many hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution, but people will have sex and people will make babies.

We can say that and try to fight against, you know, however many hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution, but people will have sex and people will make babies.

But a lot of those things in terms of resting on whether or not people get married have to do with financial decisions.

But a lot of those things in terms of resting on whether or not people get married have to do with financial decisions.

People are delaying the start of their careers because education's becoming increasingly important.

People are delaying the start of their careers because education's becoming increasingly important.

I'm saying that one of the biggest indicators for whether or not somebody's willing to get married is how much money both people are making if they can move out of their household. People don't tend to want to get married at 22 when they've just finished college, when they don't have the money to move out and they can't afford a

I'm saying that one of the biggest indicators for whether or not somebody's willing to get married is how much money both people are making if they can move out of their household. People don't tend to want to get married at 22 when they've just finished college, when they don't have the money to move out and they can't afford a

A child deserves a mother and a father.

A child deserves a mother and a father.

Do we think that shotgun marriages are, well, let's say this. Do we think that that's a reasonable direction that society would ever take?

Do we think that shotgun marriages are, well, let's say this. Do we think that that's a reasonable direction that society would ever take?

It was, but history moves in one direction. Why? Because of time.

It was, but history moves in one direction. Why? Because of time.

I don't think we've ever regressed social standards back to like, oh, well, let's go 100 years back and do things that used to exist before.

I don't think we've ever regressed social standards back to like, oh, well, let's go 100 years back and do things that used to exist before.

The Roe versus Wade is not a social standard. It's a Supreme Court ruling, number one. Number two, if you read the actual majority opinion on Roe v. Wade, we can see that socially we actually never made huge progress on how society viewed abortion. This has always been an incredibly divisive thing, right?

The Roe versus Wade is not a social standard. It's a Supreme Court ruling, number one. Number two, if you read the actual majority opinion on Roe v. Wade, we can see that socially we actually never made huge progress on how society viewed abortion. This has always been an incredibly divisive thing, right?

Even that was, I think, part of Alito's writing on it was that things like gay marriage, for instance, we've kind of moved past and it's not really as debated anymore. But abortion was never a settled topic.

Even that was, I think, part of Alito's writing on it was that things like gay marriage, for instance, we've kind of moved past and it's not really as debated anymore. But abortion was never a settled topic.

What do we mean by that?

What do we mean by that?

Well, in terms of communism being a regression, for instance, I'm not a communist, but the industrialization of the Soviet Union happened under a communist society. The industrialization- The murder of tens of millions of people.

Well, in terms of communism being a regression, for instance, I'm not a communist, but the industrialization of the Soviet Union happened under a communist society. The industrialization- The murder of tens of millions of people.

I don't think that all of history moves in one direction. There are going to be wars. There are going to be times of peace. I think in general, we're more peaceful now than we have been in the past. But I think when we look at the way that people live their lives, I think that we tend to move in a certain direction socially.

I don't think that all of history moves in one direction. There are going to be wars. There are going to be times of peace. I think in general, we're more peaceful now than we have been in the past. But I think when we look at the way that people live their lives, I think that we tend to move in a certain direction socially.

So when it comes to things like racism or when it comes to things like slavery or women's rights, I think that there are two huge things that probably aren't changing in the US. And one is access to contraception. And one is women working jobs. I think that these two things are probably huge things that are moving us off of shotgun marriages or getting married very early on.

So when it comes to things like racism or when it comes to things like slavery or women's rights, I think that there are two huge things that probably aren't changing in the US. And one is access to contraception. And one is women working jobs. I think that these two things are probably huge things that are moving us off of shotgun marriages or getting married very early on.

And I don't see – do you think that those two things are going to change fundamentally?

And I don't see – do you think that those two things are going to change fundamentally?

But those women aren't getting shotgun marriages.

But those women aren't getting shotgun marriages.

I agree with you, but that's because one of the biggest precursors to getting married is having like a level of economic stability. So as people get more educated, they obtain this economic stability, and then they're in a more comfortable position to explore more serious relations.

I agree with you, but that's because one of the biggest precursors to getting married is having like a level of economic stability. So as people get more educated, they obtain this economic stability, and then they're in a more comfortable position to explore more serious relations.

I don't think it's unbreakable or unshatterable. The initial point was for school, if we can provide a minimum level of educational stuff for children, that'd probably be good. But when we retreat back to, well, it has to be the families that are fixed first, fixing families is a multivariate problem.

I don't think it's unbreakable or unshatterable. The initial point was for school, if we can provide a minimum level of educational stuff for children, that'd probably be good. But when we retreat back to, well, it has to be the families that are fixed first, fixing families is a multivariate problem.

Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but I'm just saying that, again, on your episode when I bring up the term merry-go-round, I think that there are good conversations to be had about people getting married because stable families produce stable children that are less likely to commit crime, that are more likely to go to school, that are more likely to be productive members of society, et cetera, et cetera.

Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but I'm just saying that, again, on your episode when I bring up the term merry-go-round, I think that there are good conversations to be had about people getting married because stable families produce stable children that are less likely to commit crime, that are more likely to go to school, that are more likely to be productive members of society, et cetera, et cetera.

I'm not going to disagree with you on any of that. All of that is true. It's just frustrating that sometimes when you bring up any problem, all of it will circle back to other things that makes it seem like we can't make any progress in any area without fixing In what way?

I'm not going to disagree with you on any of that. All of that is true. It's just frustrating that sometimes when you bring up any problem, all of it will circle back to other things that makes it seem like we can't make any progress in any area without fixing In what way?

Yeah, but so for instance, on the local level, so for school funding, school funding is done, I think, generally per district. So what do you do when you have poor districts that can't afford air conditioning for their schools?

Yeah, but so for instance, on the local level, so for school funding, school funding is done, I think, generally per district. So what do you do when you have poor districts that can't afford air conditioning for their schools?

And I 1 billion percent agree. And then obviously my criticism for the conservative side is the exact opposite, where there are parts where government could remedy some issues. For instance, you know, children having sex with each other and producing other children out of wedlock. Like sometimes having after school programs is nice to prevent that.

And I 1 billion percent agree. And then obviously my criticism for the conservative side is the exact opposite, where there are parts where government could remedy some issues. For instance, you know, children having sex with each other and producing other children out of wedlock. Like sometimes having after school programs is nice to prevent that.

Like I didn't have time for these things when I was in school. I was doing football practice. I was doing cross country practice. I went in early for a band, you know. I agree with you that sometimes people only focus on one end of the problem as a, I hate to be that guy, but as somebody that, have you ever watched The Wire? Sure.

Like I didn't have time for these things when I was in school. I was doing football practice. I was doing cross country practice. I went in early for a band, you know. I agree with you that sometimes people only focus on one end of the problem as a, I hate to be that guy, but as somebody that, have you ever watched The Wire? Sure.

I'm not going to cite The Wire as a real life example, but like obviously there's only so much you can do in a school when the children coming in are so beyond destroyed because of the family life and everything prior to them even getting to school that day. So I agree. Government is not like the solution to broken families. That would never be the case.

I'm not going to cite The Wire as a real life example, but like obviously there's only so much you can do in a school when the children coming in are so beyond destroyed because of the family life and everything prior to them even getting to school that day. So I agree. Government is not like the solution to broken families. That would never be the case.

The only thing I'm looking at is, as I said earlier, just like these minimum threshold things where it's like, where can government make, because you mentioned marginal, which I think is a really good way to look at things. There's marginal costs and marginal utility to things where the first $1,000 per student you spend might give you a huge return, but the extra $20,000 after is just a waste.

The only thing I'm looking at is, as I said earlier, just like these minimum threshold things where it's like, where can government make, because you mentioned marginal, which I think is a really good way to look at things. There's marginal costs and marginal utility to things where the first $1,000 per student you spend might give you a huge return, but the extra $20,000 after is just a waste.

This is one of the areas where we get into this. I don't understand if there's brain breaking happening or what's going on. I don't know what world we can ever live in where we say that Trump is less divisive for the country than Biden. I think it is so patently obvious. Trump is so divisive.

This is one of the areas where we get into this. I don't understand if there's brain breaking happening or what's going on. I don't know what world we can ever live in where we say that Trump is less divisive for the country than Biden. I think it is so patently obvious. Trump is so divisive.

Not only does Trump make an enemy out of every person in the opposition party, he makes an enemy out of his own party and every single person around him. We all watched him bully Jeff Sessions. We all watched him bully his own party on Twitter. We all watched all of these people walk away from him.

Not only does Trump make an enemy out of every person in the opposition party, he makes an enemy out of his own party and every single person around him. We all watched him bully Jeff Sessions. We all watched him bully his own party on Twitter. We all watched all of these people walk away from him.

Even recently, I think the Secretary of Defense Esper and John Kelly, the chief of staff, were saying, I think Trump is a threat to democracy. You've got all of his prior people that were around him, some of his closest allies. You've got Bill Barr that won't co-sign a single thing that he says. You've got all these people that he used to work with that all say Trump is a horrible, evil person.

Even recently, I think the Secretary of Defense Esper and John Kelly, the chief of staff, were saying, I think Trump is a threat to democracy. You've got all of his prior people that were around him, some of his closest allies. You've got Bill Barr that won't co-sign a single thing that he says. You've got all these people that he used to work with that all say Trump is a horrible, evil person.

He is ineffective as a leader. He doesn't accomplish anything. And he didn't.

He is ineffective as a leader. He doesn't accomplish anything. And he didn't.

To say that Biden has failed at bipartisanship when we've gotten the CHIPS Act, we've gotten the IRA, we've gotten the ARP, we've gotten the bipartisan infrastructure bill, when we've gotten all this major legislation that is working in this historically divided Congress, as opposed to Trump that got us tax cuts and deficit spending.

To say that Biden has failed at bipartisanship when we've gotten the CHIPS Act, we've gotten the IRA, we've gotten the ARP, we've gotten the bipartisan infrastructure bill, when we've gotten all this major legislation that is working in this historically divided Congress, as opposed to Trump that got us tax cuts and deficit spending.

I don't understand where we ever are in this world where Biden is somehow more divisive than Trump. Even the speeches that Ben is bringing up, they always bring up, I remember that one, I think we might have even done it on our episode, the one speech that Biden gave where at one point the background is red. Yeah, the Philly speech I referenced.

I don't understand where we ever are in this world where Biden is somehow more divisive than Trump. Even the speeches that Ben is bringing up, they always bring up, I remember that one, I think we might have even done it on our episode, the one speech that Biden gave where at one point the background is red. Yeah, the Philly speech I referenced.

Yeah, and they're like, oh my God, it's over, this is the end. And then meanwhile, you've got Donald Trump coming into office saying things like, if you burn the flag, you should have your citizenship revoked. Or talking about MSDNC, that I'm going to investigate every single one of these media organizations for corruptness. I'm going to open the libel and defamation laws.

Yeah, and they're like, oh my God, it's over, this is the end. And then meanwhile, you've got Donald Trump coming into office saying things like, if you burn the flag, you should have your citizenship revoked. Or talking about MSDNC, that I'm going to investigate every single one of these media organizations for corruptness. I'm going to open the libel and defamation laws.

I'm going to take all of these guys to court. You've got this weird Project 2025 stuff where – John Paschal, I think, is talking about, we're going to investigate all of these people and we're going to try to throw crimes at all these people. Trump is like the most divisive president I think we've ever had, at least in my lifetime of being an American citizen.

I'm going to take all of these guys to court. You've got this weird Project 2025 stuff where – John Paschal, I think, is talking about, we're going to investigate all of these people and we're going to try to throw crimes at all these people. Trump is like the most divisive president I think we've ever had, at least in my lifetime of being an American citizen.

And the rhetoric from him is just, it's on a whole other level in terms of the demonization of political opponents. I mean, this is a guy that's known for giving his political opponents bad nicknames, right? That's what Trump does. It's funny, but even as a resident of Florida, If Florida had another natural disaster, do you think Trump would withhold aid?

And the rhetoric from him is just, it's on a whole other level in terms of the demonization of political opponents. I mean, this is a guy that's known for giving his political opponents bad nicknames, right? That's what Trump does. It's funny, but even as a resident of Florida, If Florida had another natural disaster, do you think Trump would withhold aid?

Because you had – I think that was one of the few nice things that DeSantis actually said about Biden was like, hey, listen, when the buildings collapsed in – Surfside, yeah. Miami Beach, yeah. For the hurricane stuff, that Biden was there. He was saying, if you guys need aid, however many billions, you can have it.

Because you had – I think that was one of the few nice things that DeSantis actually said about Biden was like, hey, listen, when the buildings collapsed in – Surfside, yeah. Miami Beach, yeah. For the hurricane stuff, that Biden was there. He was saying, if you guys need aid, however many billions, you can have it.

Meanwhile, Trump, I think, was threatening to withhold federal funding from blue states that wouldn't – I think it had to do with the National Guard stuff, the deployment of the National Guard, that they weren't doing enough for the riots, and Trump was threatening to withhold aid from some of these blue states. Yeah, Trump is literally the most divisive person in the world.

Meanwhile, Trump, I think, was threatening to withhold federal funding from blue states that wouldn't – I think it had to do with the National Guard stuff, the deployment of the National Guard, that they weren't doing enough for the riots, and Trump was threatening to withhold aid from some of these blue states. Yeah, Trump is literally the most divisive person in the world.

I don't see how on any metric he is ever succeeding in the divisive category. In terms of the economy, I do think it's funny that Republicans are very keen to say that, well, we can't really grade Trump post-COVID, because obviously COVID messed everything up, which is fair. But pre-COVID, What did Trump do? He did deficit spending tax cuts.

I don't see how on any metric he is ever succeeding in the divisive category. In terms of the economy, I do think it's funny that Republicans are very keen to say that, well, we can't really grade Trump post-COVID, because obviously COVID messed everything up, which is fair. But pre-COVID, What did Trump do? He did deficit spending tax cuts.

He presided over historic low interest rates and an economy that was already blazing past the final years of Obama. We were posting all-time highs on all the stock markets in 2013 onwards. Unemployment rates were falling. Now under Biden, unemployment rates are even lower than they were under Trump. But it sucks that for Trump, we can say, well, we can't really hold him accountable for 2020.

He presided over historic low interest rates and an economy that was already blazing past the final years of Obama. We were posting all-time highs on all the stock markets in 2013 onwards. Unemployment rates were falling. Now under Biden, unemployment rates are even lower than they were under Trump. But it sucks that for Trump, we can say, well, we can't really hold him accountable for 2020.

That was COVID. Well, all we have for Biden is post-COVID. We don't have any pre-COVID Biden economy. And it was the same thing for Obama, too, coming in right after the housing collapse as well. And it sucks that Republicans are able to walk out of office having burned the entire American society to the ground economically. And now we've got to try to evaluate, OK, well,

That was COVID. Well, all we have for Biden is post-COVID. We don't have any pre-COVID Biden economy. And it was the same thing for Obama, too, coming in right after the housing collapse as well. And it sucks that Republicans are able to walk out of office having burned the entire American society to the ground economically. And now we've got to try to evaluate, OK, well,

What did Obama do during his first two to three to four years just trying to recover from where the housing crash left it? And then we look at Biden now, who's trying to recover from COVID, and now we're grading him on a totally different scale than what Trump is being graded on. Yeah, that sucks, I think.

What did Obama do during his first two to three to four years just trying to recover from where the housing crash left it? And then we look at Biden now, who's trying to recover from COVID, and now we're grading him on a totally different scale than what Trump is being graded on. Yeah, that sucks, I think.

On the foreign policy, I'm going to be honest, I am very liberal. I'm very not progressive. I'll probably come off as more hawkish than others because I'm not a big fan of this, which also, if Ben agrees, I think people like Trump are going to be the most dovish, isolationist people ever. They don't want to do anything internationally. They just want to

On the foreign policy, I'm going to be honest, I am very liberal. I'm very not progressive. I'll probably come off as more hawkish than others because I'm not a big fan of this, which also, if Ben agrees, I think people like Trump are going to be the most dovish, isolationist people ever. They don't want to do anything internationally. They just want to

protect America, be at home, protect our economy, don't do anything internationally, which is why he was constantly undermining NATO and constantly attacking the European Union and cheering on the UK for Brexiting away from the EU. I think that being said, I think that Biden has done a phenomenal job when it comes to foreign policy.

protect America, be at home, protect our economy, don't do anything internationally, which is why he was constantly undermining NATO and constantly attacking the European Union and cheering on the UK for Brexiting away from the EU. I think that being said, I think that Biden has done a phenomenal job when it comes to foreign policy.

I think that the coalition building was so important for Ukraine-Russia, and I'm so happy that he decided to go to our European allies and our NATO allies and try to build a coalition of people to help Ukraine so that that wasn't only the United States.

I think that the coalition building was so important for Ukraine-Russia, and I'm so happy that he decided to go to our European allies and our NATO allies and try to build a coalition of people to help Ukraine so that that wasn't only the United States.

Personally, especially after doing a whole bunch of research, I do tend to side with Israel over Palestine and a lot of the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts. I'm glad that Biden, while remaining a staunch defender of Israel, is trying to rein in some of the more aggressive posturing towards the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.

Personally, especially after doing a whole bunch of research, I do tend to side with Israel over Palestine and a lot of the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts. I'm glad that Biden, while remaining a staunch defender of Israel, is trying to rein in some of the more aggressive posturing towards the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.

I'm proud that Biden said, hey, listen, we're going to delay some of these attacks. Hey, listen, we are going to allow humanitarian aid here. Hey, listen, we are going to try to not kill as many Palestinian people down there while still signaling that he would be a staunch supporter of Israel in the conflict, assuming the civilian casualties don't go too high.

I'm proud that Biden said, hey, listen, we're going to delay some of these attacks. Hey, listen, we are going to allow humanitarian aid here. Hey, listen, we are going to try to not kill as many Palestinian people down there while still signaling that he would be a staunch supporter of Israel in the conflict, assuming the civilian casualties don't go too high.

For foreign policy, I mean, blemishes. I mean, the biggest one you can give to Biden is Afghanistan in the poll out there. But man, are we going to talk about the Inspector General report that says that one of the biggest reasons why the Afghanistan poll was so disastrous was because of the Doha Accords, where Donald Trump headed talks that didn't even include the

For foreign policy, I mean, blemishes. I mean, the biggest one you can give to Biden is Afghanistan in the poll out there. But man, are we going to talk about the Inspector General report that says that one of the biggest reasons why the Afghanistan poll was so disastrous was because of the Doha Accords, where Donald Trump headed talks that didn't even include the

Biden took office, we had 2,500 troops left in Afghanistan. What was the options even afforded to Biden at that point? Obviously, you've got the abandonment of the Kurds in northern Syria for the Turkish armies to lay waste to. You're talking about Iran and North Korea, although I'm not sure we're... Ben would land on those, but yeah, that's a broad light.

Biden took office, we had 2,500 troops left in Afghanistan. What was the options even afforded to Biden at that point? Obviously, you've got the abandonment of the Kurds in northern Syria for the Turkish armies to lay waste to. You're talking about Iran and North Korea, although I'm not sure we're... Ben would land on those, but yeah, that's a broad light.

I'm going to try to be concise when I say this. Broadly speaking, especially in studying Israel-Palestine and Ukraine-Russia, I try not to take politicians at their word because sometimes they just say stuff to say stuff. I understand that. But broadly speaking, I'm going to look at the rhetoric and the actions, and I am going to grade them the same.

I'm going to try to be concise when I say this. Broadly speaking, especially in studying Israel-Palestine and Ukraine-Russia, I try not to take politicians at their word because sometimes they just say stuff to say stuff. I understand that. But broadly speaking, I'm going to look at the rhetoric and the actions, and I am going to grade them the same.

So yes, I would hold Biden and Trump to the same standards.

So yes, I would hold Biden and Trump to the same standards.

Can I ask you, like, for our head of state, our chief executive, shouldn't rhetoric be arguably one of the most important things that he does?

Can I ask you, like, for our head of state, our chief executive, shouldn't rhetoric be arguably one of the most important things that he does?

One thing that I would ask you about that, though, is I agree, especially when you look at the favorability. But sometimes when I look at these polls, when you start to disaggregate them by party, I wonder if it's actually is Biden historically divisive or I'm trying to think of a really polite way to say this. The people that like Trump worship Trump. I don't know.

One thing that I would ask you about that, though, is I agree, especially when you look at the favorability. But sometimes when I look at these polls, when you start to disaggregate them by party, I wonder if it's actually is Biden historically divisive or I'm trying to think of a really polite way to say this. The people that like Trump worship Trump. I don't know.

Like one of the most prescient things that Trump could have probably ever said was that I could kill someone on Fifth Street and nobody would hold me accountable. So is it really that Biden is historically divisive or is it that every single Trump supporter will always say that Trump is great.

Like one of the most prescient things that Trump could have probably ever said was that I could kill someone on Fifth Street and nobody would hold me accountable. So is it really that Biden is historically divisive or is it that every single Trump supporter will always say that Trump is great.

I mean, the allegiance to Trump.

I mean, the allegiance to Trump.

Just one quick thing, I guess, because we can say the reality of it and we can look at opinion polls. What if we look at legislative accomplishments? Biden is working on a 50-50 divided Senate. Donald Trump had both House of Congress and the Supreme Court and got no major legislation passed. Well, I mean, he did lose Congress in 2018.

Just one quick thing, I guess, because we can say the reality of it and we can look at opinion polls. What if we look at legislative accomplishments? Biden is working on a 50-50 divided Senate. Donald Trump had both House of Congress and the Supreme Court and got no major legislation passed. Well, I mean, he did lose Congress in 2018.

But prior to that, we got the we got the infrastructure bill, I think, in one year, which Trump promised for his entire presidency didn't get anywhere.

But prior to that, we got the we got the infrastructure bill, I think, in one year, which Trump promised for his entire presidency didn't get anywhere.

But they were in favor of mass spending for tax cuts.

But they were in favor of mass spending for tax cuts.

That's great. But at the end of the day, the government is still going to be in a deficit spending and they're going to have to borrow money from the treasury.

That's great. But at the end of the day, the government is still going to be in a deficit spending and they're going to have to borrow money from the treasury.

But how do you explain the lack of legislation?

But how do you explain the lack of legislation?

He's the head of the Republican Party. He's the president, Republican president of the United States.

He's the head of the Republican Party. He's the president, Republican president of the United States.

Yeah. Okay. Wait, real quick. So for instance, like Donald Trump wanted to punish China and he wanted to bring a microprocessor manufacturer to the United States. Biden did that with legislation with the CHIPS Act. You talk about like spending being out of control. And I mean, I can agree with that. I think anybody that looks at the numbers has to agree with that.

Yeah. Okay. Wait, real quick. So for instance, like Donald Trump wanted to punish China and he wanted to bring a microprocessor manufacturer to the United States. Biden did that with legislation with the CHIPS Act. You talk about like spending being out of control. And I mean, I can agree with that. I think anybody that looks at the numbers has to agree with that.

But why not pass legislation like the Inflation Reduction Act, which is at least like spending neutral?

But why not pass legislation like the Inflation Reduction Act, which is at least like spending neutral?

Okay, so then just to understand, so if somebody just did massive reductions in tax receipts, so tax cut after tax cut after tax cut, but they didn't change spending at all, you wouldn't consider that an increase in deficit spending or out-of-control spending? You would just say they're just tax cuts?

Okay, so then just to understand, so if somebody just did massive reductions in tax receipts, so tax cut after tax cut after tax cut, but they didn't change spending at all, you wouldn't consider that an increase in deficit spending or out-of-control spending? You would just say they're just tax cuts?

Okay. So then was it under Trump then when he did the tax?

Okay. So then was it under Trump then when he did the tax?

I agree. But we're in a post, how many trillions of dollars have been dumped in worldwide that are leading to inflation? The inflation is a worldwide issue right now because of the economy shutting down for a year or two. It's not like those effects are gone and one year, right? COVID might be gone, but the after effects of all the stimulus spending and the unemployment and everything else.

I agree. But we're in a post, how many trillions of dollars have been dumped in worldwide that are leading to inflation? The inflation is a worldwide issue right now because of the economy shutting down for a year or two. It's not like those effects are gone and one year, right? COVID might be gone, but the after effects of all the stimulus spending and the unemployment and everything else.

Sure. I agree. But there's also the definition of when do you deficit spend is when economies are headed for recessions, right? Rather than when economies are doing really well, like they were under Trump and he was deficit spending, whereas Biden can at least make the argument that I ought to be deficit spending because the economy is heading for potentially

Sure. I agree. But there's also the definition of when do you deficit spend is when economies are headed for recessions, right? Rather than when economies are doing really well, like they were under Trump and he was deficit spending, whereas Biden can at least make the argument that I ought to be deficit spending because the economy is heading for potentially

Every economist.

Every economist.

A lot because of the American recovery plan, right? That Biden did as well. Yeah. I mean, 4 million jobs.

A lot because of the American recovery plan, right? That Biden did as well. Yeah. I mean, 4 million jobs.

Probably... That's a hard one. The factors that I'm making right now are... Obviously, you've got the Israel-Palestinian war that's going on right now, which is kind of bad. But broadly speaking, I'm not sure how much that affects the Middle East as much as the collapse of Syria. 2013 Syrian civil war sent...

Probably... That's a hard one. The factors that I'm making right now are... Obviously, you've got the Israel-Palestinian war that's going on right now, which is kind of bad. But broadly speaking, I'm not sure how much that affects the Middle East as much as the collapse of Syria. 2013 Syrian civil war sent...

millions of immigrants throughout all of Europe, which was under Obama and continued under Trump. Trump didn't do anything to alleviate any of the Syrian civil war. Why did Syria end up as a preserve of Russia again? How did Syria end up as a preserve of Russia?

millions of immigrants throughout all of Europe, which was under Obama and continued under Trump. Trump didn't do anything to alleviate any of the Syrian civil war. Why did Syria end up as a preserve of Russia again? How did Syria end up as a preserve of Russia?

Do you think there might have been some hesitancy after like seeing how Libya ended up that maybe us like intervening?

Do you think there might have been some hesitancy after like seeing how Libya ended up that maybe us like intervening?

What does that have to do with anything? There might have been a mistake learned.

What does that have to do with anything? There might have been a mistake learned.

I don't think that Trump contributed to the Syrian situation improving much.

I don't think that Trump contributed to the Syrian situation improving much.

ISIS had been getting wrecked by the Kurds in Iraq, by every single person, by Assad's army by Putin, by Turkey, literally everybody was fighting against ISIS at that point.

ISIS had been getting wrecked by the Kurds in Iraq, by every single person, by Assad's army by Putin, by Turkey, literally everybody was fighting against ISIS at that point.

Yeah, but I don't know if ISIS is originating in Syria and Baghdadi and all of the growth of that is necessarily Obama's fault. I know that we like to say that Obama created ISIS. I don't know if you say that, but I've heard that saying a lot. I think that's a little bit simplistic. I don't think that when I'm looking at actions that presidents have taken, the

Yeah, but I don't know if ISIS is originating in Syria and Baghdadi and all of the growth of that is necessarily Obama's fault. I know that we like to say that Obama created ISIS. I don't know if you say that, but I've heard that saying a lot. I think that's a little bit simplistic. I don't think that when I'm looking at actions that presidents have taken, the

The biggest criticism I have for Middle Eastern policy is I think the Doha Accords were a disaster, and I think that's one of the biggest blemishes that we have right now. I would also argue that moving the embassy to Jerusalem was also kind of silly and arguably contributed to some of the conflict we see right now between Israel and Palestine.

The biggest criticism I have for Middle Eastern policy is I think the Doha Accords were a disaster, and I think that's one of the biggest blemishes that we have right now. I would also argue that moving the embassy to Jerusalem was also kind of silly and arguably contributed to some of the conflict we see right now between Israel and Palestine.

Sure, sure. So just on a couple of Middle Eastern things. So one of the big things that threw the Middle East into disaster was what we are all traumatized by it now is the Iraq evasion, which I'm a Republican president. Sure. You agree with that, right? Sure.

Sure, sure. So just on a couple of Middle Eastern things. So one of the big things that threw the Middle East into disaster was what we are all traumatized by it now is the Iraq evasion, which I'm a Republican president. Sure. You agree with that, right? Sure.

The deposition of Saddam Hussein and everything that followed after probably contributed more to the growth of ISIS and the destabilization of that entire region, probably more than anything else.

The deposition of Saddam Hussein and everything that followed after probably contributed more to the growth of ISIS and the destabilization of that entire region, probably more than anything else.

I think that prior to Bush, for Clinton, and even at the beginning of Bush's presidency, we were on some kind of road to normalcy with Iran, which I think has to happen, whether we like them or not, until Bush, for whatever reason, decides to throw Iran into the axis of evil.

I think that prior to Bush, for Clinton, and even at the beginning of Bush's presidency, we were on some kind of road to normalcy with Iran, which I think has to happen, whether we like them or not, until Bush, for whatever reason, decides to throw Iran into the axis of evil.

My understanding is that, yeah, from the late 90s and prior to the axis of evil labeling of Iran, that there was going to be some path forward to where we could start to normalize relationships with them.

My understanding is that, yeah, from the late 90s and prior to the axis of evil labeling of Iran, that there was going to be some path forward to where we could start to normalize relationships with them.

We can disagree on that.

We can disagree on that.

I agree. Yeah, because of the destabilization of Iraq. And Iraq not having a government there that was functional for at least a decade. And was, in fact, a Sunni government, right?

I agree. Yeah, because of the destabilization of Iraq. And Iraq not having a government there that was functional for at least a decade. And was, in fact, a Sunni government, right?

Banning all the former Ba'ath parties.

Banning all the former Ba'ath parties.

Yeah, all horrible. Under. Republican president. Don't disagree. Yeah, that that probably contributed more to ISIS, to the growth of power in Iran, maybe even to the destabilization of Syria, probably more than anything that Obama did. Also, when we look at Iran funding people in the region, I don't disagree with that as well.

Yeah, all horrible. Under. Republican president. Don't disagree. Yeah, that that probably contributed more to ISIS, to the growth of power in Iran, maybe even to the destabilization of Syria, probably more than anything that Obama did. Also, when we look at Iran funding people in the region, I don't disagree with that as well.

I think Iran is the number one instigator of bad guy things right now in the Middle East. Iran, the IRGC, I supported when Donald Trump killed Soleimani. I think that was a great thing. I think that Iran is a major problem. However, I don't know if the path forward is constantly being a belligerent to Iran or trying to figure out some road to normalcy.

I think Iran is the number one instigator of bad guy things right now in the Middle East. Iran, the IRGC, I supported when Donald Trump killed Soleimani. I think that was a great thing. I think that Iran is a major problem. However, I don't know if the path forward is constantly being a belligerent to Iran or trying to figure out some road to normalcy.

I don't know if the collapse of Iran or the destruction of that country, considering how unpopular the Atoll even is there, like the citizens of Iran, I don't think are big supporters of the government there. I feel like moving on a path where, you know, let's do our nuclear inspections. We had that Iranian nuclear deal that Trump pulled out of. Let's do the nuclear inspections.

I don't know if the collapse of Iran or the destruction of that country, considering how unpopular the Atoll even is there, like the citizens of Iran, I don't think are big supporters of the government there. I feel like moving on a path where, you know, let's do our nuclear inspections. We had that Iranian nuclear deal that Trump pulled out of. Let's do the nuclear inspections.

Make sure you're not on the way to nuclear weapons. Let's unfreeze some funds. Let's move in some direction where we get on a good term with you. I feel like that's the most important thing that needs to happen in the Middle East. As much as people like to look at the Abraham Accords, who cares if, what was it, Bahrain, I think Oman, I think Sudan.

Make sure you're not on the way to nuclear weapons. Let's unfreeze some funds. Let's move in some direction where we get on a good term with you. I feel like that's the most important thing that needs to happen in the Middle East. As much as people like to look at the Abraham Accords, who cares if, what was it, Bahrain, I think Oman, I think Sudan.

The UAE and Morocco, yeah. All of these people, even Saudi Arabia, already have de facto normalization with Israel anyways. They're all trading.

The UAE and Morocco, yeah. All of these people, even Saudi Arabia, already have de facto normalization with Israel anyways. They're all trading.

But after Turkey – After Jordan, and then in the past 20 years of economic relations and ties with each other, all of the leadership in the Middle East, and you'll agree with this, look at Israel and they go, okay, well, we've got Palestinians who, God bless them, do nothing.

But after Turkey – After Jordan, and then in the past 20 years of economic relations and ties with each other, all of the leadership in the Middle East, and you'll agree with this, look at Israel and they go, okay, well, we've got Palestinians who, God bless them, do nothing.

And then you've got Israel, which is on a region with no natural resources to somehow become like an economic giant, they're good to trade with, their population's educated, they have military power. All of the leadership in these Middle Eastern countries are wanting to be friendly with Israel and are engaging in trade de facto with Israel.

And then you've got Israel, which is on a region with no natural resources to somehow become like an economic giant, they're good to trade with, their population's educated, they have military power. All of the leadership in these Middle Eastern countries are wanting to be friendly with Israel and are engaging in trade de facto with Israel.

And the idea that like the UAE and Bahrain were brought in to say like, oh, well, now we're going to officially say this.

And the idea that like the UAE and Bahrain were brought in to say like, oh, well, now we're going to officially say this.

Is it the Abraham Accords that's convincing Saudi Arabia to take a stance against Iran? No, I mean, they're already fighting with each other, right? I don't think the Abraham Accords moved us any closer towards any type of real peace in the region. What has to happen is something has to happen with Iran. There has to be some diplomatic bilateral communication there.

Is it the Abraham Accords that's convincing Saudi Arabia to take a stance against Iran? No, I mean, they're already fighting with each other, right? I don't think the Abraham Accords moved us any closer towards any type of real peace in the region. What has to happen is something has to happen with Iran. There has to be some diplomatic bilateral communication there.

Hasn't that historically – hasn't that been the case, though, that you've had a region with tons of sectarian violence for a long time, and then finally Turkey was like, you know what? This isn't worth it. The United States paid them a lot of money. They had conversations with Israel, and you know what?

Hasn't that historically – hasn't that been the case, though, that you've had a region with tons of sectarian violence for a long time, and then finally Turkey was like, you know what? This isn't worth it. The United States paid them a lot of money. They had conversations with Israel, and you know what?

But I'm saying the same regime that did part of the Yom Kippur War was the same regime that negotiated peace with Israel.

But I'm saying the same regime that did part of the Yom Kippur War was the same regime that negotiated peace with Israel.

So you think that for Iran, right, a country that has been sanctioned for God knows how many years now, you think that for Iran, just continuing to sanction them and contain them is an effective way, is more effective than trying to engage them in bilateral or multilateral peace talks? Yes, 100%.

So you think that for Iran, right, a country that has been sanctioned for God knows how many years now, you think that for Iran, just continuing to sanction them and contain them is an effective way, is more effective than trying to engage them in bilateral or multilateral peace talks? Yes, 100%.

Um, maybe. Uh, so, uh, in terms of broadly speaking, um, I generally oppose settlement expansion is a thing that Israel does incorrectly that I think is kind of like provocative to at least all the Palestinians, uh, in the West bank. And I probably energizes hatred in the Gaza strip for them as well in terms of conducting, uh, in terms of conducting warfare.

Um, maybe. Uh, so, uh, in terms of broadly speaking, um, I generally oppose settlement expansion is a thing that Israel does incorrectly that I think is kind of like provocative to at least all the Palestinians, uh, in the West bank. And I probably energizes hatred in the Gaza strip for them as well in terms of conducting, uh, in terms of conducting warfare.

Uh, the one thing that I always say to everybody, uh, especially Americans is you can't evaluate things from an American perspective. It's very stupid. It happened a lot with Ukraine where people like, Oh, oh, well, didn't they work with the Nazis? And like, weren't the Soviets the good guys? And it's like, well, in other parts of the world, it's not quite as simple.

Uh, the one thing that I always say to everybody, uh, especially Americans is you can't evaluate things from an American perspective. It's very stupid. It happened a lot with Ukraine where people like, Oh, oh, well, didn't they work with the Nazis? And like, weren't the Soviets the good guys? And it's like, well, in other parts of the world, it's not quite as simple.

And I think the same is true for Israel-Palestine, that a lot of Americans will analyze the conflict as just being one between only Israel and Palestine, which it's not. It's a conflict between Israel and then Palestine, Hezbollah, the Houthis, and Iran. Right now it is.

And I think the same is true for Israel-Palestine, that a lot of Americans will analyze the conflict as just being one between only Israel and Palestine, which it's not. It's a conflict between Israel and then Palestine, Hezbollah, the Houthis, and Iran. Right now it is.

I think that the, however, one area where I'll break with Ben is I think that minimizing civilian casualties and everything is very, very, very important. I think on the Israeli side, I don't think it's important so that the U.S. will stay with them because I think the U.S. is probably going to stick with Israel as long as they don't do anything crazy.

I think that the, however, one area where I'll break with Ben is I think that minimizing civilian casualties and everything is very, very, very important. I think on the Israeli side, I don't think it's important so that the U.S. will stay with them because I think the U.S. is probably going to stick with Israel as long as they don't do anything crazy.

And I don't even think it matters for the international community. It definitely doesn't matter for the U.N. because Jesus Christ. However, I think it's really, really, really important that I think that in the Middle East, broadly speaking, I think that leadership, especially in the Gulf, has gotten over the Palestinian issue.

And I don't even think it matters for the international community. It definitely doesn't matter for the U.N. because Jesus Christ. However, I think it's really, really, really important that I think that in the Middle East, broadly speaking, I think that leadership, especially in the Gulf, has gotten over the Palestinian issue.

I think that leadership is kind of like they don't care as much anymore, but the populations still care quite a bit. And I think that the main issue that Israel could run into is if the civilian death toll does climb too high, and if they start to hit this 40, 50, 60,000 number of civilian casualties,

I think that leadership is kind of like they don't care as much anymore, but the populations still care quite a bit. And I think that the main issue that Israel could run into is if the civilian death toll does climb too high, and if they start to hit this 40, 50, 60,000 number of civilian casualties,

they run the risk of the civilian populations in the surrounding Middle Eastern states becoming so antagonistic towards Israel that they start to take steps back towards normalization in the region. So, for instance, I know that Bahrain, I think, already pulled out their ambassador to Israel. My guess is going to be it's temporary. I know that on the...

they run the risk of the civilian populations in the surrounding Middle Eastern states becoming so antagonistic towards Israel that they start to take steps back towards normalization in the region. So, for instance, I know that Bahrain, I think, already pulled out their ambassador to Israel. My guess is going to be it's temporary. I know that on the...

On the public speaking side, you've got a lot of people condemning Israel for the attacks. And on the private side, you've got people telling Israel, please kill all of Hamas because this is untenable and nobody wants to work in this situation. I don't know if this ended up being true or not. I'm guessing it didn't.

On the public speaking side, you've got a lot of people condemning Israel for the attacks. And on the private side, you've got people telling Israel, please kill all of Hamas because this is untenable and nobody wants to work in this situation. I don't know if this ended up being true or not. I'm guessing it didn't.

But I saw on a couple of Twitter accounts it was leaked that potentially Saudi Arabia was considering installing a government in the West Bank that they would run.

But I saw on a couple of Twitter accounts it was leaked that potentially Saudi Arabia was considering installing a government in the West Bank that they would run.

So I think the issue is and I think and I'm largely actually I'm very sympathetic towards the Palestinians because I think that for since 48 and onwards, I think that all of the Arab states super gassed them up on that. They wanted the Palestinians to fight because they wanted to fight with Israel.

So I think the issue is and I think and I'm largely actually I'm very sympathetic towards the Palestinians because I think that for since 48 and onwards, I think that all of the Arab states super gassed them up on that. They wanted the Palestinians to fight because they wanted to fight with Israel.

However, as time has gone on and they've realized that it's kind of a lost cause, states have started to drop out. So you're getting these bilateral peace treaties with Egypt and with Jordan. You're getting multilateral agreements like the Abraham Accords. And now the Palestinians are looking around and like, okay, well, you guys told us to fight all this time.

However, as time has gone on and they've realized that it's kind of a lost cause, states have started to drop out. So you're getting these bilateral peace treaties with Egypt and with Jordan. You're getting multilateral agreements like the Abraham Accords. And now the Palestinians are looking around and like, okay, well, you guys told us to fight all this time.

And now the only people that we have supporting us are Iranian proxies. So the Palestinians are in a very weird spot where they've like lost all their support. Yeah, I think that Israel – what I would say to be quote-unquote critical of Israel is Israel needs to take strong steps towards peace that probably involves them enduring some undue hardship.

And now the only people that we have supporting us are Iranian proxies. So the Palestinians are in a very weird spot where they've like lost all their support. Yeah, I think that Israel – what I would say to be quote-unquote critical of Israel is Israel needs to take strong steps towards peace that probably involves them enduring some undue hardship.

So not the October 7th attacks because, Jesus, that's way too much, but other types of attacks that they might have to deal with that might cause some civilians to die that they don't come out over the top with and retaliate with if there's ever going to be peace in that region. Yeah.

So not the October 7th attacks because, Jesus, that's way too much, but other types of attacks that they might have to deal with that might cause some civilians to die that they don't come out over the top with and retaliate with if there's ever going to be peace in that region. Yeah.

However, another thing that I've always said is a huge problem between Israel and Palestine is I think that both sides think that if they continue to fight, it will be good for them. But the problem is one side is delusional. I think Israel wants to continue to fight because they get justifications for the annexation of the Golan Heights.

However, another thing that I've always said is a huge problem between Israel and Palestine is I think that both sides think that if they continue to fight, it will be good for them. But the problem is one side is delusional. I think Israel wants to continue to fight because they get justifications for the annexation of the Golan Heights.

They get justifications for expansions, especially in Area C that I think they're probably going to try to annex soon. They get justifications for the increased military posturing towards the Gaza Strip and the embargoes. And Israel is right that if the conflict continues, really the situation only improves for Israel over time.

They get justifications for expansions, especially in Area C that I think they're probably going to try to annex soon. They get justifications for the increased military posturing towards the Gaza Strip and the embargoes. And Israel is right that if the conflict continues, really the situation only improves for Israel over time.

But the Palestinians also all believe that if they keep fighting, they thought this since 2000 under Arafat, that if they just keep fighting, they'll get better gains too. But that's not the case.

But the Palestinians also all believe that if they keep fighting, they thought this since 2000 under Arafat, that if they just keep fighting, they'll get better gains too. But that's not the case.

I love all people. I love all people around the world. And I think that when we analyze issues, I think that we have to be very honest with what the people on the ground think. And the idea that Hamas is just this one-off thing in the Gaza Strip is not only incorrect with the situation on the ground, it's also incredibly ahistorical.

I love all people. I love all people around the world. And I think that when we analyze issues, I think that we have to be very honest with what the people on the ground think. And the idea that Hamas is just this one-off thing in the Gaza Strip is not only incorrect with the situation on the ground, it's also incredibly ahistorical.

And the idea that the Palestinians in the West Bank, of which I believe the most recent polling shows, I want to say 75% to 80% support the October 7th attacks. Palestinians in general want to fight in violent conflict with Israel. That's not just the position of the government. That's not just people. There's a reason why Abbas doesn't want to do elections in the West Bank.

And the idea that the Palestinians in the West Bank, of which I believe the most recent polling shows, I want to say 75% to 80% support the October 7th attacks. Palestinians in general want to fight in violent conflict with Israel. That's not just the position of the government. That's not just people. There's a reason why Abbas doesn't want to do elections in the West Bank.

And it's because the Palestinian people really do want to fight with Israel. But to combat that problem is like... You have to get the UN on board. We've got to do an actual addressing of the Palestinian refugee problem, which is handled like a joke right now. Iran has to be brought to the table in terms of negotiations.

And it's because the Palestinian people really do want to fight with Israel. But to combat that problem is like... You have to get the UN on board. We've got to do an actual addressing of the Palestinian refugee problem, which is handled like a joke right now. Iran has to be brought to the table in terms of negotiations.

There has to be huge efforts made to economically revitalize these Palestinian areas, even though they're one of the highest recipients of aid in the world. You have to do something about the embargo and the blockade in the Gaza Strip, which isn't just maintained by Israel. It's also maintained by Egypt. You should ask why. Yeah, there's a lot of things that have to happen to fix that problem.

There has to be huge efforts made to economically revitalize these Palestinian areas, even though they're one of the highest recipients of aid in the world. You have to do something about the embargo and the blockade in the Gaza Strip, which isn't just maintained by Israel. It's also maintained by Egypt. You should ask why. Yeah, there's a lot of things that have to happen to fix that problem.

But the reality is I don't think Israel really wants to because they get to continue their expansion into the West Bank. And I don't think anybody around the world really cares that much. So in a month, we won't be talking about it.

But the reality is I don't think Israel really wants to because they get to continue their expansion into the West Bank. And I don't think anybody around the world really cares that much. So in a month, we won't be talking about it.

Always the same thing.

Always the same thing.

True, but I think Israel does want to continue to expand settlements into the West Bank, right? They want to continue to build. They want to have all of Jerusalem, East Jerusalem as well.

True, but I think Israel does want to continue to expand settlements into the West Bank, right? They want to continue to build. They want to have all of Jerusalem, East Jerusalem as well.

Well, no, let me be very clear.

Well, no, let me be very clear.

I don't think there's, like, a plan—like, so some people say, for instance, they'll take that one quote from Netanyahu, and they'll try to say that, like, he was funding the people in the Gaza Strip by allowing Qatari money to come in, even though he was actually speaking in opposition to Abbas, allowing the Gaza Strip to fall for Netanyahu to clear it out for him, and they give it back, etc., etc.

I don't think there's, like, a plan—like, so some people say, for instance, they'll take that one quote from Netanyahu, and they'll try to say that, like, he was funding the people in the Gaza Strip by allowing Qatari money to come in, even though he was actually speaking in opposition to Abbas, allowing the Gaza Strip to fall for Netanyahu to clear it out for him, and they give it back, etc., etc.

I'm not claiming those theories. I'm just saying that I think that Israel will take a relatively neutral stance towards conflict enduring because as long as the conflict endures and as long as the settlements can expand, I think that benefits, I think that ultimately benefits Israel.

I'm not claiming those theories. I'm just saying that I think that Israel will take a relatively neutral stance towards conflict enduring because as long as the conflict endures and as long as the settlements can expand, I think that benefits, I think that ultimately benefits Israel.

I would have agreed with you on October 6th. I think we're probably a year or two away from that right now.

I would have agreed with you on October 6th. I think we're probably a year or two away from that right now.

Yeah. So I think that we have a huge country full of a lot of people, a lot of individual talents, capabilities. And I think that the goal of government, broadly speaking, should be to try to ensure that everybody's able to achieve as much as possible. So on a liberal level, that usually means some people might need a little bit of a boost when it

Yeah. So I think that we have a huge country full of a lot of people, a lot of individual talents, capabilities. And I think that the goal of government, broadly speaking, should be to try to ensure that everybody's able to achieve as much as possible. So on a liberal level, that usually means some people might need a little bit of a boost when it

And I will say I agree essentially with everything you're saying, not to loop back another topic, but this is one of the reasons then why I was so critical. I don't want to say critical, but like kind of nonchalant about the Abraham Accords because they didn't address anything with the Palestinians whatsoever. They brought up countries that weren't super relevant to the conflict.

And I will say I agree essentially with everything you're saying, not to loop back another topic, but this is one of the reasons then why I was so critical. I don't want to say critical, but like kind of nonchalant about the Abraham Accords because they didn't address anything with the Palestinians whatsoever. They brought up countries that weren't super relevant to the conflict.

They didn't bring in Qatar, which is where a lot of the money and support for the Gaza Strip comes from. They didn't involve Iran at all.

They didn't bring in Qatar, which is where a lot of the money and support for the Gaza Strip comes from. They didn't involve Iran at all.

um they might need a little bit of a boost when it comes to providing certain necessities like housing or food or clothing but broadly speaking i mean i'm still a liberal not a communist or socialist i don't believe in the you know total command economy total communist takeover of all of the uh you know economy but i think that broadly speaking the government should kind of like kick in and help people when they need it and that government can and should be big

um they might need a little bit of a boost when it comes to providing certain necessities like housing or food or clothing but broadly speaking i mean i'm still a liberal not a communist or socialist i don't believe in the you know total command economy total communist takeover of all of the uh you know economy but i think that broadly speaking the government should kind of like kick in and help people when they need it and that government can and should be big

A little bit, yeah. I think on the macro, I agree. Maybe we get at the weasel a little bit on some things. On the final thing that he said, though, I wish that Americans could have honest conversations about foreign policy. I think that it would just be better for everybody.

A little bit, yeah. I think on the macro, I agree. Maybe we get at the weasel a little bit on some things. On the final thing that he said, though, I wish that Americans could have honest conversations about foreign policy. I think that it would just be better for everybody.

I don't know if it's Red Scare after the Cold War, where it was literally the behemoths were fighting against communism, and we felt like after 91, every single foreign policy decision needs to be able to be explained correctly. in like seven words, like he's the bad guy and that's it.

I don't know if it's Red Scare after the Cold War, where it was literally the behemoths were fighting against communism, and we felt like after 91, every single foreign policy decision needs to be able to be explained correctly. in like seven words, like he's the bad guy and that's it.

I wish we had more honest conversations about what our foreign policy interest is in a particular region, because I don't think most Americans honestly could even articulate why Israel would be an important ally or why it's important to defend Ukraine against Russia, or why should we care about Taiwan at all? I don't know if most Americans could articulate anything there,

I wish we had more honest conversations about what our foreign policy interest is in a particular region, because I don't think most Americans honestly could even articulate why Israel would be an important ally or why it's important to defend Ukraine against Russia, or why should we care about Taiwan at all? I don't know if most Americans could articulate anything there,

Not necessarily. I noticed that when liberals talk about government, especially taxes, it seems like they talk about it for taxes sake or bigness sake. So people talk about taxes sometimes as like a punishment, like tax the rich. I think taxing the rich is fine insofar as it funds the programs that we want to fund. But Democrats have a really big problem demonizing success or wealth.

Not necessarily. I noticed that when liberals talk about government, especially taxes, it seems like they talk about it for taxes sake or bigness sake. So people talk about taxes sometimes as like a punishment, like tax the rich. I think taxing the rich is fine insofar as it funds the programs that we want to fund. But Democrats have a really big problem demonizing success or wealth.

even though they might have very strong opinions about why we ought to be involved in certain conflicts. So I do agree with that. I wish we had more honest conversations about foreign policy. In terms of how Biden has handled Ukraine, the things that I liked the most were, one, that he was very clear in the beginning about what we wouldn't do.

even though they might have very strong opinions about why we ought to be involved in certain conflicts. So I do agree with that. I wish we had more honest conversations about foreign policy. In terms of how Biden has handled Ukraine, the things that I liked the most were, one, that he was very clear in the beginning about what we wouldn't do.

So Biden saying that we're not going to do, not a red line, no-fly zones over Ukraine. We're not going to be deploying troops on the ground in Ukraine. We're not going to be doing Anything that would have US soldiers and Russian soldiers crossing swords with each other, that's not going to happen. I like that he made that very clear at the beginning.

So Biden saying that we're not going to do, not a red line, no-fly zones over Ukraine. We're not going to be deploying troops on the ground in Ukraine. We're not going to be doing Anything that would have US soldiers and Russian soldiers crossing swords with each other, that's not going to happen. I like that he made that very clear at the beginning.

And I like that he coalition built between NATO and the EU to get people to send funds, training, soldiers, airplanes, and everything to Ukraine. I thought those two things were really good. In terms of basically writing Zelensky a blank check,

And I like that he coalition built between NATO and the EU to get people to send funds, training, soldiers, airplanes, and everything to Ukraine. I thought those two things were really good. In terms of basically writing Zelensky a blank check,

I would like to hope that Biden and the entire United States learned a lesson from Iraq and Afghanistan that open-ended missions with unlimited budgets and no clear goal are like the worst foreign policy decisions you can ever do. They've like defined US foreign policy for the past two or three decades, which is unfortunate, but seems to be the case.

I would like to hope that Biden and the entire United States learned a lesson from Iraq and Afghanistan that open-ended missions with unlimited budgets and no clear goal are like the worst foreign policy decisions you can ever do. They've like defined US foreign policy for the past two or three decades, which is unfortunate, but seems to be the case.

My feeling would be, and this is just a feeling, I don't know if internal cables have leaked that say otherwise, is the Biden administration has probably always had a quiet position of at some point there's going to be an off-ramp here. And I think even a month or two ago, I think those talks were being leaked, that discussion had begun with Zelensky looking for an off-ramp.

My feeling would be, and this is just a feeling, I don't know if internal cables have leaked that say otherwise, is the Biden administration has probably always had a quiet position of at some point there's going to be an off-ramp here. And I think even a month or two ago, I think those talks were being leaked, that discussion had begun with Zelensky looking for an off-ramp.

But publicly, of course, the United States is never going to come out and say, we are going to support you guys to fight as much as you want for three months. And then after that, it's no more. Obviously, that can't be the statement. It's always going to be that we're going to support you in your fight against Russia.

But publicly, of course, the United States is never going to come out and say, we are going to support you guys to fight as much as you want for three months. And then after that, it's no more. Obviously, that can't be the statement. It's always going to be that we're going to support you in your fight against Russia.

Yeah, you just can't do that. It's always going to come off as we're going to support you forever and as long as it takes and as long as you need, whatever we have to do to defend freedom and democracy in your country and any other statement would be absurd.

Yeah, you just can't do that. It's always going to come off as we're going to support you forever and as long as it takes and as long as you need, whatever we have to do to defend freedom and democracy in your country and any other statement would be absurd.

I can understand why it feels like on a public level, a blank check and an indefinite time period was granted to Zelensky, but I don't think that's going to be the case. Again, I hope we've learned our lessons in the Middle East about the forever wars, that this isn't going to be a forever funding to Ukraine to fight for as long as they want. I do disagree.

I can understand why it feels like on a public level, a blank check and an indefinite time period was granted to Zelensky, but I don't think that's going to be the case. Again, I hope we've learned our lessons in the Middle East about the forever wars, that this isn't going to be a forever funding to Ukraine to fight for as long as they want. I do disagree.

I feel like we're playing a little bit retrospectively saying that, well, it's obvious that they're not going to capture the Donbass. It's obvious that they're not going to capture Crimea. I agree for Crimea that was incredibly obvious, but it was also really obvious that in two weeks, Russia would own Kiev and Ukraine was going to be Belarus 2.0.

I feel like we're playing a little bit retrospectively saying that, well, it's obvious that they're not going to capture the Donbass. It's obvious that they're not going to capture Crimea. I agree for Crimea that was incredibly obvious, but it was also really obvious that in two weeks, Russia would own Kiev and Ukraine was going to be Belarus 2.0.

I think that even for a lot of military people and analysts around the world, that that was an expectation or at least a significant probability. Nobody knew, the phrase that's thrown around now is paper tiger, that Russia's military was as ill-equipped as they were. So I can understand why, especially if you're Ukraine and if you've repelled an invasion from one of the world's largest

I think that even for a lot of military people and analysts around the world, that that was an expectation or at least a significant probability. Nobody knew, the phrase that's thrown around now is paper tiger, that Russia's military was as ill-equipped as they were. So I can understand why, especially if you're Ukraine and if you've repelled an invasion from one of the world's largest

armies why you might feel like well fuck it you know let's fight for a few months let's fight for a year let's see what happens and i can understand the united states supporting them but i agree that there has to be some reasonable off ramp but we're not going to fight forever i think the u.s um state department has already begun those conversations with zelensky to look at what that off ramp looks like um

armies why you might feel like well fuck it you know let's fight for a few months let's fight for a year let's see what happens and i can understand the united states supporting them but i agree that there has to be some reasonable off ramp but we're not going to fight forever i think the u.s um state department has already begun those conversations with zelensky to look at what that off ramp looks like um

But yeah, I'm not too sure. Other than explicitly stating publicly, you can only fight until this date. I don't really know what else I would change. I don't think the Biden administration should have done that. I don't know what else.

But yeah, I'm not too sure. Other than explicitly stating publicly, you can only fight until this date. I don't really know what else I would change. I don't think the Biden administration should have done that. I don't know what else.

And I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't think it's a bad thing to be wealthy, to be a billionaire or whatever, as long as we're funding what we need to fund.

And I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't think it's a bad thing to be wealthy, to be a billionaire or whatever, as long as we're funding what we need to fund.

Honestly, you're going to be more educated than me on this. I don't like, or maybe I just don't know enough.

Honestly, you're going to be more educated than me on this. I don't like, or maybe I just don't know enough.

i don't like the principle that when we negotiate things in the united states there's like 50 million hostages at all points in time for every single thing like oh boy here comes the debt ceiling what do the republicans want what do the democrats want oh boy like here you know we can't fund our government um but i mean obviously the the argument is going to be that if the ukraine funding doesn't come in this bill and if biden and his administration feel like it's really important that unilateral or not unilaterally but as a single issue it's not going to pass

i don't like the principle that when we negotiate things in the united states there's like 50 million hostages at all points in time for every single thing like oh boy here comes the debt ceiling what do the republicans want what do the democrats want oh boy like here you know we can't fund our government um but i mean obviously the the argument is going to be that if the ukraine funding doesn't come in this bill and if biden and his administration feel like it's really important that unilateral or not unilaterally but as a single issue it's not going to pass

So, I would say that at this point – and I don't know what the conversations look like between the Biden administration and Zelensky – I would say at this point that it's probably fair to start making contingencies on the money that we give to Ukraine that, listen, this conflict has waged on now. Now we need to start looking for potential peace. We can't just write you an unlimited check.

So, I would say that at this point – and I don't know what the conversations look like between the Biden administration and Zelensky – I would say at this point that it's probably fair to start making contingencies on the money that we give to Ukraine that, listen, this conflict has waged on now. Now we need to start looking for potential peace. We can't just write you an unlimited check.

So, I mean, if those strings are attached, I'd be okay with it. But the broader question of like, is it okay to make this particular piece of legislation with all this funding contingent on the Ukrainian funding? I mean, that just seems to be the way the government works now, unfortunately.

So, I mean, if those strings are attached, I'd be okay with it. But the broader question of like, is it okay to make this particular piece of legislation with all this funding contingent on the Ukrainian funding? I mean, that just seems to be the way the government works now, unfortunately.

Absolutely. This is probably ignoring every other issue we've talked about, of which I think there are plenty that I would say disqualify Trump from holding office. I think that the conduct and the behavior leading up to and including January 6th, I think is wildly indefensible. I am excited to see Ben... Trying to, yeah.

Absolutely. This is probably ignoring every other issue we've talked about, of which I think there are plenty that I would say disqualify Trump from holding office. I think that the conduct and the behavior leading up to and including January 6th, I think is wildly indefensible. I am excited to see Ben... Trying to, yeah.

The three to four stages are the taking what I think any reasonable person would say knowingly false information about elections being rigged or ballot boxes being stuffed or Ruby Freeman running a ballot three times in Georgia. Taking that knowingly false information and trying to call state secretaries and stuff to have them flip their electoral vote. That was horrible.

The three to four stages are the taking what I think any reasonable person would say knowingly false information about elections being rigged or ballot boxes being stuffed or Ruby Freeman running a ballot three times in Georgia. Taking that knowingly false information and trying to call state secretaries and stuff to have them flip their electoral vote. That was horrible.

The plot that Eastman hatched in order to have these false slates of electors where all seven states had citizens go in and falsely say that they were the duly elected electors that could submit votes to Congress, that was insane. That happened.

The plot that Eastman hatched in order to have these false slates of electors where all seven states had citizens go in and falsely say that they were the duly elected electors that could submit votes to Congress, that was insane. That happened.

asking or begging Pence to accept these false states of electors initially, and then just say, you should just throw it out completely and throw it to the House delegation, which was majority Republican. That was absolutely unbelievable.

asking or begging Pence to accept these false states of electors initially, and then just say, you should just throw it out completely and throw it to the House delegation, which was majority Republican. That was absolutely unbelievable.

And then on the day of January 6th, trying to capitalize on the violence by him, Giuliani, and Eastman making phone calls to senators and congressmen saying, well, Don't you think maybe you guys should delay the vote a little bit? Don't you think they're just really mad about the election? I think he said to McCarthy, they're more upset than you.

And then on the day of January 6th, trying to capitalize on the violence by him, Giuliani, and Eastman making phone calls to senators and congressmen saying, well, Don't you think maybe you guys should delay the vote a little bit? Don't you think they're just really mad about the election? I think he said to McCarthy, they're more upset than you.

And his utter dereliction of duty in not doing anything to stop the rioting that happened on January 6th because he was too busy taking advantage of it. I think all of these things are horrible. I look forward to seeing the Jack Smith indictments play out in court, maybe even the Georgia Rico case. But yeah, I think all of these things are unfathomable.

And his utter dereliction of duty in not doing anything to stop the rioting that happened on January 6th because he was too busy taking advantage of it. I think all of these things are horrible. I look forward to seeing the Jack Smith indictments play out in court, maybe even the Georgia Rico case. But yeah, I think all of these things are unfathomable.

And I think when you look at the plot from start to finish, Clearly, the goal the entire time was to circumvent the peaceful transfer of power. That was the goal from start to finish, whether it was through false claims, whether it was through illegal schemes, or whether it was through violence at the Capitol to delay the certification of the vote. Ben?

And I think when you look at the plot from start to finish, Clearly, the goal the entire time was to circumvent the peaceful transfer of power. That was the goal from start to finish, whether it was through false claims, whether it was through illegal schemes, or whether it was through violence at the Capitol to delay the certification of the vote. Ben?

So I'm glad that you have the attorney background. When we are assessing mens rea, when we're looking at certain criminal statutes where intent is required, it's a reasonable person standard, right?

So I'm glad that you have the attorney background. When we are assessing mens rea, when we're looking at certain criminal statutes where intent is required, it's a reasonable person standard, right?

But for first degree murder, you don't need the statement of I plan to kill this person or I intend to kill this person. We can prove that state of mind. You need circumstantial evidence. Correct. Yes. So I feel like my feeling for Donald Trump was there were all these people around him that he trusted to investigate election fraud. He trusted Barr and the DOJ.

But for first degree murder, you don't need the statement of I plan to kill this person or I intend to kill this person. We can prove that state of mind. You need circumstantial evidence. Correct. Yes. So I feel like my feeling for Donald Trump was there were all these people around him that he trusted to investigate election fraud. He trusted Barr and the DOJ.

He asked Pence, his vice president, to look into it. He asked his chief of staff. He asked his legal counsel. There's so many people that ostensibly he trusts them if he's asking them to look into it. And when all of them looked into it and reported back to him, no, we found nothing.

He asked Pence, his vice president, to look into it. He asked his chief of staff. He asked his legal counsel. There's so many people that ostensibly he trusts them if he's asking them to look into it. And when all of them looked into it and reported back to him, no, we found nothing.

what, unless we're going to literally make the concession that Trump might actually be a delusional psycho man at that point, should he not have realized like, well, okay, maybe that's a nice thing.

what, unless we're going to literally make the concession that Trump might actually be a delusional psycho man at that point, should he not have realized like, well, okay, maybe that's a nice thing.

He should have realized the day of the election that he lost the election, but that's not, but I'm just asking, I'm saying that like at that point, should he not have known that for him to go and propagate those claims that he'd asked all of the people he trusted to research and then for him to take those claims to Michigan and to Georgia and then publicly and to try to convince people to throw out the election, you don't think that you're doing the same thing.

He should have realized the day of the election that he lost the election, but that's not, but I'm just asking, I'm saying that like at that point, should he not have known that for him to go and propagate those claims that he'd asked all of the people he trusted to research and then for him to take those claims to Michigan and to Georgia and then publicly and to try to convince people to throw out the election, you don't think that you're doing the same thing.

I agree with that. But I think a lot of the underlying facts, though, because he does bring up those calls to Raffensperger in Georgia, he does bring up in the indictments that they were knowingly false information.

I agree with that. But I think a lot of the underlying facts, though, because he does bring up those calls to Raffensperger in Georgia, he does bring up in the indictments that they were knowingly false information.

So it seems like that's going to be part of the case, maybe not to convict on any of the four particular charges that he mentioned, but it seems like that's probably going to be part of – what he's going to have to establish in court to convict Trump. So I want to look at the actual text of the charges.

So it seems like that's going to be part of the case, maybe not to convict on any of the four particular charges that he mentioned, but it seems like that's probably going to be part of – what he's going to have to establish in court to convict Trump. So I want to look at the actual text of the charges.

It doesn't have to just be because Smith has done oral arguments in response to a lot of the claims by Trump's lawyers. This was one of them. The infinite civil and criminal immunity was another one of them where he cites past cases where these types of things, because I think it was to defraud of civil rights, I think was the fourth charge.

It doesn't have to just be because Smith has done oral arguments in response to a lot of the claims by Trump's lawyers. This was one of them. The infinite civil and criminal immunity was another one of them where he cites past cases where these types of things, because I think it was to defraud of civil rights, I think was the fourth charge.

Sure. Although I don't like that when we say specious legal theory and novel application, which I do agree some of these in some ways is novel. I don't think we've ever also had a president try to do this before. It is a novel situation where somebody has resisted the peaceful transfer of power this clearly in so many different ways.

Sure. Although I don't like that when we say specious legal theory and novel application, which I do agree some of these in some ways is novel. I don't think we've ever also had a president try to do this before. It is a novel situation where somebody has resisted the peaceful transfer of power this clearly in so many different ways.

Gore wasn't trying to decertify the vote, though, for states. Right. They challenged their thing to the Supreme Court. They lost their case in the Supreme Court and then power transfer happened.

Gore wasn't trying to decertify the vote, though, for states. Right. They challenged their thing to the Supreme Court. They lost their case in the Supreme Court and then power transfer happened.

Yeah, but the Eastman theory of what Pence could do in Congress is a far cry away. A truly shitty theory. I mean, make no mistake. But not just shitty. I think that if any Democrat had done this, I feel like we'd be looking at it in a far different lens.

Yeah, but the Eastman theory of what Pence could do in Congress is a far cry away. A truly shitty theory. I mean, make no mistake. But not just shitty. I think that if any Democrat had done this, I feel like we'd be looking at it in a far different lens.

As in we would be using terms like attempted coup, subversion of peaceful transfer of power if a Democrat vice president had tried to essentially say that in Congress they could throw away the vote.

As in we would be using terms like attempted coup, subversion of peaceful transfer of power if a Democrat vice president had tried to essentially say that in Congress they could throw away the vote.

We can dump the legal stuff, actually.

We can dump the legal stuff, actually.

Because like you said, Jack Smith, nobody's charging with incitement. And I don't believe insurrection is a part of that. So we're dumping legal. Just in terms of like a president that is trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. So whether you call that a bloodless coup or a coup or whatever contemporaneous term you want to use.

Because like you said, Jack Smith, nobody's charging with incitement. And I don't believe insurrection is a part of that. So we're dumping legal. Just in terms of like a president that is trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. So whether you call that a bloodless coup or a coup or whatever contemporaneous term you want to use.

Using means that are inappropriate or illegal.

Using means that are inappropriate or illegal.

I mean, inappropriate seems not— The reason I don't like the word inappropriate, though, is because then conservatives are very quick to say, well, sure, he was inappropriate, but everybody was inappropriate.

I mean, inappropriate seems not— The reason I don't like the word inappropriate, though, is because then conservatives are very quick to say, well, sure, he was inappropriate, but everybody was inappropriate.

Okay. That's important to me, though. Does it not bother you that, like, Donald Trump sought through legal and extra-legal and Trump magical ways of trying to entrench his power as president past when he should have been able to? Is that not something that was incredibly troublesome?

Okay. That's important to me, though. Does it not bother you that, like, Donald Trump sought through legal and extra-legal and Trump magical ways of trying to entrench his power as president past when he should have been able to? Is that not something that was incredibly troublesome?

Why do we think that?

Why do we think that?

Because there was a riot and within three hours, yes. Like, let's say hypothetically— Lord, save me. Let's say, hypothetically, Giuliani was the next head of the Department of Justice. Giuliani was the next attorney general. How would he be confirmed? Well, I'm not entirely sure.

Because there was a riot and within three hours, yes. Like, let's say hypothetically— Lord, save me. Let's say, hypothetically, Giuliani was the next head of the Department of Justice. Giuliani was the next attorney general. How would he be confirmed? Well, I'm not entirely sure.

Because so much of the Republican Party, despite feeling like they don't support Trump when it comes time to actually back him in Congress— Also, I would have to check whether he would be barred by criminal conviction from holding—I don't know the answer to that. Sure. Well, yeah, especially with the 14th Amendment, we're— figuring out a lot of this right now. Yeah.

Because so much of the Republican Party, despite feeling like they don't support Trump when it comes time to actually back him in Congress— Also, I would have to check whether he would be barred by criminal conviction from holding—I don't know the answer to that. Sure. Well, yeah, especially with the 14th Amendment, we're— figuring out a lot of this right now. Yeah.

But I mean, say if not Giuliani, say if there are any other number of insane people that Trump could theoretically put on his side of the government that wouldn't tell him no next time, because there were a lot of people that rebuked him. There were Republicans in a lot of the states, right? Raffensperger is one of them. There were Republicans in his own administration. You've got Rosen.

But I mean, say if not Giuliani, say if there are any other number of insane people that Trump could theoretically put on his side of the government that wouldn't tell him no next time, because there were a lot of people that rebuked him. There were Republicans in a lot of the states, right? Raffensperger is one of them. There were Republicans in his own administration. You've got Rosen.

You've got Barr. There was his own vice president. But theoretically next time, and I feel like last time going in, I'm going to do a little bit of mind reading a macro. Maybe you can I think that Trump kind of thought, one, I don't think Trump knows much at all about how the government works. I think we probably agree with that.

You've got Barr. There was his own vice president. But theoretically next time, and I feel like last time going in, I'm going to do a little bit of mind reading a macro. Maybe you can I think that Trump kind of thought, one, I don't think Trump knows much at all about how the government works. I think we probably agree with that.

I think Trump probably thought that if he had people that were like, at least in his party and kind of camp, that they'll basically do whatever needs to be done to give him what he wants and with no respect for process. But now that he sees it, well, it's not enough to just have allies. I need people that are fiercely allegiant to me.

I think Trump probably thought that if he had people that were like, at least in his party and kind of camp, that they'll basically do whatever needs to be done to give him what he wants and with no respect for process. But now that he sees it, well, it's not enough to just have allies. I need people that are fiercely allegiant to me.

Would we not be worried that a guy that tried to essentially steal the election for real wouldn't try to pick people that would be more amenable to his plans in the next administration?

Would we not be worried that a guy that tried to essentially steal the election for real wouldn't try to pick people that would be more amenable to his plans in the next administration?

So if somebody was running and they blatantly said, like, I don't want to use the fascist word, but if they said, like, I want to be an authoritarian, I'm going to abolish all elections, you would say... Sure, he's saying that, but I don't think he can actually do it. So it's okay if he runs for president. You don't care at all as long as you feel like the guardrails are going to prevent it.

So if somebody was running and they blatantly said, like, I don't want to use the fascist word, but if they said, like, I want to be an authoritarian, I'm going to abolish all elections, you would say... Sure, he's saying that, but I don't think he can actually do it. So it's okay if he runs for president. You don't care at all as long as you feel like the guardrails are going to prevent it.

Really? Yeah, because I think the issue is, is one, when it's election time, Republicans are spineless in office. And I don't know how many congressmen would support what he wants just because they want to win reelection or because they think it's inevitable anyway.

Really? Yeah, because I think the issue is, is one, when it's election time, Republicans are spineless in office. And I don't know how many congressmen would support what he wants just because they want to win reelection or because they think it's inevitable anyway.

Sure, but I mean, like, look at what happened with, like, Kinzinger and Cheney, right, who were very, like, staunchly anti-Trump after J6 for that select committee, right? Kinzinger didn't even run again, and Cheney lost her election by, I think, the widest margin that anybody has ever lost an election ever. Right.

Sure, but I mean, like, look at what happened with, like, Kinzinger and Cheney, right, who were very, like, staunchly anti-Trump after J6 for that select committee, right? Kinzinger didn't even run again, and Cheney lost her election by, I think, the widest margin that anybody has ever lost an election ever. Right.

Yeah, I guess it's just, it's a surprising position to me for if we're looking at like principled stances of government, the idea that a man who has, and I think we both agree on this, that Donald Trump's, Donald Trump's only allegiance is to Donald Trump, right? We agree on that. The only thing he cares about is Donald Trump. I don't think it's the only thing he cares about.

Yeah, I guess it's just, it's a surprising position to me for if we're looking at like principled stances of government, the idea that a man who has, and I think we both agree on this, that Donald Trump's, Donald Trump's only allegiance is to Donald Trump, right? We agree on that. The only thing he cares about is Donald Trump. I don't think it's the only thing he cares about.

I think it's certainly the largest thing he cares about. It's the largest thing he cares about, right? So you've got a man who only cares about himself. Welcome to politics. I mean, it may be more, but that's not even, it may be more with Trump, but it's certainly not unique to Trump. I think that the issue with Trump too, though, is,

I think it's certainly the largest thing he cares about. It's the largest thing he cares about, right? So you've got a man who only cares about himself. Welcome to politics. I mean, it may be more, but that's not even, it may be more with Trump, but it's certainly not unique to Trump. I think that the issue with Trump too, though, is,

And I think he's even a threat to the Republican Party, in which I think I think he would mostly agree with me, maybe not overall, but on every individual point, Trump picks bad candidates, he has no concern for the future of the Republican Party. Like, for instance, I think there is a chance I don't think it'll happen because of the polling looks now.

And I think he's even a threat to the Republican Party, in which I think I think he would mostly agree with me, maybe not overall, but on every individual point, Trump picks bad candidates, he has no concern for the future of the Republican Party. Like, for instance, I think there is a chance I don't think it'll happen because of the polling looks now.

But if Trump didn't get the nomination, I think Trump would say screw it and run as an independent because he thinks he can win or whatever, right?

But if Trump didn't get the nomination, I think Trump would say screw it and run as an independent because he thinks he can win or whatever, right?

Again, Trump was really content to throw Georgia the two runoff elections under the bus because Raffensperger didn't support him for the election.

Again, Trump was really content to throw Georgia the two runoff elections under the bus because Raffensperger didn't support him for the election.

If Donald Trump wins, I think there is a 100% chance that he will try to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. In terms of would he succeed?

If Donald Trump wins, I think there is a 100% chance that he will try to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. In terms of would he succeed?

Why is that?

Why is that?

Yeah, but hasn't Donald Trump himself joked about running for a third term? That's it. I think that having a third term.

Yeah, but hasn't Donald Trump himself joked about running for a third term? That's it. I think that having a third term.

Here's another broad argument that I don't like in favor of Trump. And this was brought up earlier in terms of like, we talk about like not grading presidents on a curve, but then earlier we said we take Biden's rhetoric.

Here's another broad argument that I don't like in favor of Trump. And this was brought up earlier in terms of like, we talk about like not grading presidents on a curve, but then earlier we said we take Biden's rhetoric.

Sure, but I don't like that it feels like we're treating Donald Trump like a seven-year-old or a nine-year-old. I think we should treat him like the president of the United States.

Sure, but I don't like that it feels like we're treating Donald Trump like a seven-year-old or a nine-year-old. I think we should treat him like the president of the United States.

I don't think having a president that has taken concrete steps to prevent the transfer of power, which he did with the electorate sham, which he did with Pence, and which he did with trying to capitalize on the J6 violence, a president that's taken concrete steps towards cooing the government, essentially, I don't know why that guy, we'd say, well, you know, it's Trump, he does Trump things, the guardrail's held.

I don't think having a president that has taken concrete steps to prevent the transfer of power, which he did with the electorate sham, which he did with Pence, and which he did with trying to capitalize on the J6 violence, a president that's taken concrete steps towards cooing the government, essentially, I don't know why that guy, we'd say, well, you know, it's Trump, he does Trump things, the guardrail's held.

I'll probably hold next time.

I'll probably hold next time.

When we say we shouldn't, do you mean that he should be actually barred from office? I'm just talking about support for him. I don't even think Republicans should support Trump. You lose your incumbent advantage. The guy's obviously self-destructive. He's destructive to the political party itself.

When we say we shouldn't, do you mean that he should be actually barred from office? I'm just talking about support for him. I don't even think Republicans should support Trump. You lose your incumbent advantage. The guy's obviously self-destructive. He's destructive to the political party itself.

think there's a case to be made but man the phrasing for as much as our uh governmental founding fathers everybody else you know wrote nice amendments and wrote nice the constitution some of the phrasing is very very very blah and the uh section three um the the not requiring any type of actual conviction um i don't have a strong feeling on it i will say i'm very interested in reading the majority opinion from the supreme court i seriously doubt the supreme court is going to uphold that states should be able to decide if they leave them off the ballot or not

think there's a case to be made but man the phrasing for as much as our uh governmental founding fathers everybody else you know wrote nice amendments and wrote nice the constitution some of the phrasing is very very very blah and the uh section three um the the not requiring any type of actual conviction um i don't have a strong feeling on it i will say i'm very interested in reading the majority opinion from the supreme court i seriously doubt the supreme court is going to uphold that states should be able to decide if they leave them off the ballot or not

I think for the political future of the United States, it's probably not healthy that the leading opposition candidate is now going to be barred from the ballot. It's probably not healthy for us because then what?

I think for the political future of the United States, it's probably not healthy that the leading opposition candidate is now going to be barred from the ballot. It's probably not healthy for us because then what?

It would be. However, like that threat to democracy was earned by Donald Trump and the conservatives that supported him. I think conservatives made a dangerous gamble when they threw Trump into office. And now, like all of the fallout from that is something that we all as Americans have to deal with.

It would be. However, like that threat to democracy was earned by Donald Trump and the conservatives that supported him. I think conservatives made a dangerous gamble when they threw Trump into office. And now, like all of the fallout from that is something that we all as Americans have to deal with.

We can say this pretty well, but there is an amendment in the Constitution, the 14th Amendment, that says that if they have engaged in this, they shall not be, or you shall, I don't remember the phrasing because it doesn't require conviction, but it's a self-executing, arguably, thing.

We can say this pretty well, but there is an amendment in the Constitution, the 14th Amendment, that says that if they have engaged in this, they shall not be, or you shall, I don't remember the phrasing because it doesn't require conviction, but it's a self-executing, arguably, thing.

I would also be careful with that because remember one of Trump's first like big political actions was challenging Obama's birth certificate. Well, I,

I would also be careful with that because remember one of Trump's first like big political actions was challenging Obama's birth certificate. Well, I,

I just think that the, I think it's scary that like Donald Trump- It feels like for all of the accusations that are made sometimes against Democrats, like Biden is ordering Garland to investigate Donald Trump and blah, blah, blah. It seems like Donald Trump would actually do that with his DOJ, would give them orders.

I just think that the, I think it's scary that like Donald Trump- It feels like for all of the accusations that are made sometimes against Democrats, like Biden is ordering Garland to investigate Donald Trump and blah, blah, blah. It seems like Donald Trump would actually do that with his DOJ, would give them orders.

Well, he kind of did, though. Right. So, for instance, with Jeffrey Clark, Jeffrey Clark went to Rosen and Donahue and said, hey, listen, I need you guys to sign off on a letter that we're going to use essentially to bully states into overturning their elections by saying we found significant election fraud.

Well, he kind of did, though. Right. So, for instance, with Jeffrey Clark, Jeffrey Clark went to Rosen and Donahue and said, hey, listen, I need you guys to sign off on a letter that we're going to use essentially to bully states into overturning their elections by saying we found significant election fraud.

And part of that threat was Jeffrey Clark saying, listen, if you're not going to do it, Rosen, you know, Trump's going to fire you and just make me the acting attorney general. That was a threat that he carried. And I think Trump repeated that threat in a meeting later on that was I only rebuked when I think like half the White House staff said, if you do this, we're resigning.

And part of that threat was Jeffrey Clark saying, listen, if you're not going to do it, Rosen, you know, Trump's going to fire you and just make me the acting attorney general. That was a threat that he carried. And I think Trump repeated that threat in a meeting later on that was I only rebuked when I think like half the White House staff said, if you do this, we're resigning.

But I'm saying he threatened to fire his acting attorney general if he wouldn't carry the same plot for him. Essentially, like if Trump could order his DOJ to do something, would he?

But I'm saying he threatened to fire his acting attorney general if he wouldn't carry the same plot for him. Essentially, like if Trump could order his DOJ to do something, would he?

Well, we can get into specifics there.

Well, we can get into specifics there.

Every president has been stretching and stretching and stretching executive power.

Every president has been stretching and stretching and stretching executive power.

I mean, Trump's inability to get border policy passed literally had him using executive power to march the military down to the border to do border policy.

I mean, Trump's inability to get border policy passed literally had him using executive power to march the military down to the border to do border policy.

For what he was able to relieve, which I think were related to particular types of student loan debt. But I'm just saying that, like, well, the guardrails are holding with Biden as much as they're holding with Trump.

For what he was able to relieve, which I think were related to particular types of student loan debt. But I'm just saying that, like, well, the guardrails are holding with Biden as much as they're holding with Trump.

The only difference is that once Biden, you know, exhausts his executive power, he's not running around, like, lying to people or trying to extort people or trying to concoct insane schemes.

The only difference is that once Biden, you know, exhausts his executive power, he's not running around, like, lying to people or trying to extort people or trying to concoct insane schemes.

OK, so so then the idea is essentially that Donald Trump's rhetoric is insane, but we don't care. Donald Trump would probably try to steal an election if he could, but he probably won't be able to. He's not going to do it again.

OK, so so then the idea is essentially that Donald Trump's rhetoric is insane, but we don't care. Donald Trump would probably try to steal an election if he could, but he probably won't be able to. He's not going to do it again.

You don't you don't get any. Why not?

You don't you don't get any. Why not?

Yeah, but keep him off the ballot. Why would the 14th Amendment stop if he thought Vice President Pence could unilaterally decide the outcome of the election?

Yeah, but keep him off the ballot. Why would the 14th Amendment stop if he thought Vice President Pence could unilaterally decide the outcome of the election?

I think we can kind of like laugh and say there's no scheme we could even concoct.

I think we can kind of like laugh and say there's no scheme we could even concoct.

I think the issue, though, is that like the idea of electing another president that has tried to circumvent the peaceful transfer of power using extra legal means and then pretending like we can't concoct a single scheme that he could try to circumvent other legal processes to have a third term or to have a longer term or to install who he wants as the next president.

I think the issue, though, is that like the idea of electing another president that has tried to circumvent the peaceful transfer of power using extra legal means and then pretending like we can't concoct a single scheme that he could try to circumvent other legal processes to have a third term or to have a longer term or to install who he wants as the next president.

I just when a person has already shown you who they are and with every single person around him agrees with that. When every single person that's worked with him, save for the what, Sidney Powell, Eastman and Giuliani, which I don't think even I don't think anybody would want to throw their lot in with those three.

I just when a person has already shown you who they are and with every single person around him agrees with that. When every single person that's worked with him, save for the what, Sidney Powell, Eastman and Giuliani, which I don't think even I don't think anybody would want to throw their lot in with those three.

It just seems wild to me that we would say, like, yeah, we're just going to go in and trust this guy with another term of president. But like, he can't run for a third term. So it's fine when there's like 50 million other things.

It just seems wild to me that we would say, like, yeah, we're just going to go in and trust this guy with another term of president. But like, he can't run for a third term. So it's fine when there's like 50 million other things.

Kind of, maybe, yeah. I don't know what makes things do this, but it feels like we can never have a good thing and then have it end as a good thing. Things always get taken to their extreme, and then we have to fight on those extremes. I would argue that back in my day, we called it SJW, Social Justice Warriors, before it became woke, and it's like 2013 onwards, whatever.

Kind of, maybe, yeah. I don't know what makes things do this, but it feels like we can never have a good thing and then have it end as a good thing. Things always get taken to their extreme, and then we have to fight on those extremes. I would argue that back in my day, we called it SJW, Social Justice Warriors, before it became woke, and it's like 2013 onwards, whatever.

There are aspects to wokeism that I think are good. I like the additional representation that we have in media now. I like how, as much as people complain about the internet and how it's regulated, that there are way more groups that are represented on the internet, whether we're talking X, the platform formerly known as Twitter or Facebook or whatever.

There are aspects to wokeism that I think are good. I like the additional representation that we have in media now. I like how, as much as people complain about the internet and how it's regulated, that there are way more groups that are represented on the internet, whether we're talking X, the platform formerly known as Twitter or Facebook or whatever.

I think in some ways, or whether we're pushing women's achievements in school and in the wider workforce, I think that these are all good things. The issue that you run into is people don't ever have a stopping point.

I think in some ways, or whether we're pushing women's achievements in school and in the wider workforce, I think that these are all good things. The issue that you run into is people don't ever have a stopping point.

And I think people kind of get lost in this woke for woke sake thing where we start to see these very weird warpings of these academic, I guess, arguments that are used for really horrible things. So, for instance, I think that you can talk about in the United States things like white supremacy or things like oppression or certain demographics, especially with Jim Crow laws and pre-Jim Crow.

And I think people kind of get lost in this woke for woke sake thing where we start to see these very weird warpings of these academic, I guess, arguments that are used for really horrible things. So, for instance, I think that you can talk about in the United States things like white supremacy or things like oppression or certain demographics, especially with Jim Crow laws and pre-Jim Crow.

And you can even talk about effects from that. But then when you run into this weird world where we've kind of warped these things so that not only is white supremacy still as present today as it ever has been, well, actually, black people and other minorities can't even be racist. They don't have the power to because we're going to use a different definition of racism.

And you can even talk about effects from that. But then when you run into this weird world where we've kind of warped these things so that not only is white supremacy still as present today as it ever has been, well, actually, black people and other minorities can't even be racist. They don't have the power to because we're going to use a different definition of racism.

And we can only talk about punching up as opposed to punching down. And we're actually going to say it's totally okay for these people to say or do whatever they want. And it's never bad. But like white people who have always been the oppressors, even if you're like a trailer park guy whose family is addicted to meth, you know, you have all this privilege, etc, etc.

And we can only talk about punching up as opposed to punching down. And we're actually going to say it's totally okay for these people to say or do whatever they want. And it's never bad. But like white people who have always been the oppressors, even if you're like a trailer park guy whose family is addicted to meth, you know, you have all this privilege, etc, etc.

I think that you run into these issues where wokeism, it starts off as like a really good idea, and I would argue has achieved really good things, especially in regards to like women's education, everything. And then it just gets so academia-y.

I think that you run into these issues where wokeism, it starts off as like a really good idea, and I would argue has achieved really good things, especially in regards to like women's education, everything. And then it just gets so academia-y.

So there's a word there, academic, whatever, where you take something and you put it in school too much and then it comes out as some Frankenstein, you know, cancer baby of like horrible things such that today when I'm reading stuff, and I know Ben is the same way, like if I even hear somebody say the word like anti-racism, I'm probably ignoring every other thing you have to say.

So there's a word there, academic, whatever, where you take something and you put it in school too much and then it comes out as some Frankenstein, you know, cancer baby of like horrible things such that today when I'm reading stuff, and I know Ben is the same way, like if I even hear somebody say the word like anti-racism, I'm probably ignoring every other thing you have to say.

If you utter the word like colonial anything, I'm probably going to say you probably don't have anything good to say. Yeah, a lot of it is just taken way too far. But you know what I will blame on some of this is I will blame conservatives for some of this.

If you utter the word like colonial anything, I'm probably going to say you probably don't have anything good to say. Yeah, a lot of it is just taken way too far. But you know what I will blame on some of this is I will blame conservatives for some of this.

Because I think one issue that happens, and I think Ben might even agree with me here too, is I think there's two huge problems that have happened in the United States, I think, broadly speaking, is that one, we become more different than we ever have been. And two, we become more similar than we ever have been.

Because I think one issue that happens, and I think Ben might even agree with me here too, is I think there's two huge problems that have happened in the United States, I think, broadly speaking, is that one, we become more different than we ever have been. And two, we become more similar than we ever have been.

And when I say this, what I mean is that like we're splitting off into these groups and then these groups are enforcing this insane homogeneity between these two separate groups. And I think one of these schisms has been conservatives' reluctancy to participate in things related to higher education.

And when I say this, what I mean is that like we're splitting off into these groups and then these groups are enforcing this insane homogeneity between these two separate groups. And I think one of these schisms has been conservatives' reluctancy to participate in things related to higher education.

So for a long time, conservatives are saying like, oh, you know, the educational institutions are against us. You know, Rush Limbaugh talks about how evil the colleges are and blah, blah, blah. And then what happens is conservatives are less and less willing to engage in them. So then you get this scenario or this environment where everybody that's engaged in

So for a long time, conservatives are saying like, oh, you know, the educational institutions are against us. You know, Rush Limbaugh talks about how evil the colleges are and blah, blah, blah. And then what happens is conservatives are less and less willing to engage in them. So then you get this scenario or this environment where everybody that's engaged in

on the administrative side are fucking insane. They're like even more so to, and I also want to draw a distinction between like the administrators and the faculty, because oftentimes when you're reading story after story after story of like all of these insane admins that are pushing further and further left, usually the faculty is fighting against it.

on the administrative side are fucking insane. They're like even more so to, and I also want to draw a distinction between like the administrators and the faculty, because oftentimes when you're reading story after story after story of like all of these insane admins that are pushing further and further left, usually the faculty is fighting against it.

A lot of the tenured professors, a lot of people in their departments are saying like, hold on, well, we actually don't agree with this. But I feel like because conservatives for so long have demonized these institutions rather than critically evaluated them and tried to have honest critique and engagement that they've just completely broken off.

A lot of the tenured professors, a lot of people in their departments are saying like, hold on, well, we actually don't agree with this. But I feel like because conservatives for so long have demonized these institutions rather than critically evaluated them and tried to have honest critique and engagement that they've just completely broken off.

And when you only have a bunch of lefties or righties together, all they'll do is they'll veer off even more into their insane directions. I feel like that's a big problem that we've run into in the country to where conservatives have totally broken off some conversations, broken away from where they won't participate in them anymore.

And when you only have a bunch of lefties or righties together, all they'll do is they'll veer off even more into their insane directions. I feel like that's a big problem that we've run into in the country to where conservatives have totally broken off some conversations, broken away from where they won't participate in them anymore.

And then the people that you have left just run as far to the left as possible.

And then the people that you have left just run as far to the left as possible.

Can I ask a question on that? I'm so curious. Okay. Um, I'm excited for this conversation because I consider you to be really intelligent. Um, but I feel like sometimes there are ways that conservatives talk about certain issues that seem to defy logic and reason, I guess. So here, and I'm sure you feel the same way about progress.

Can I ask a question on that? I'm so curious. Okay. Um, I'm excited for this conversation because I consider you to be really intelligent. Um, but I feel like sometimes there are ways that conservatives talk about certain issues that seem to defy logic and reason, I guess. So here, and I'm sure you feel the same way about progress.

Yeah, so I think that a couple things. So one of the big issues that I have with kind of like this, I don't know if we call it era of Trumpism or populism, is this total disregard for institutions and this disconnect from participation in the system. So it's one of the big things that I fight with progressives about, who cares because they're all 20 years old, they don't vote anyway.

Yeah, so I think that a couple things. So one of the big issues that I have with kind of like this, I don't know if we call it era of Trumpism or populism, is this total disregard for institutions and this disconnect from participation in the system. So it's one of the big things that I fight with progressives about, who cares because they're all 20 years old, they don't vote anyway.

But it's another thing that I noticed with a lot of people that are Trump voters, Trump fans, or whatever, is this idea where we say this institution is irrevocably destroyed. It's irredeemable. It can't be saved. Nothing that we do can fix it. And I think that what that leads people to doing is, one, they disconnect further.

But it's another thing that I noticed with a lot of people that are Trump voters, Trump fans, or whatever, is this idea where we say this institution is irrevocably destroyed. It's irredeemable. It can't be saved. Nothing that we do can fix it. And I think that what that leads people to doing is, one, they disconnect further.

Well, I feel the same way about progressives, um, but even some, uh, liberals for sure. Uh, Before I ask this question, it's going to relate to education. We can agree broadly speaking that statistics are real and that not everybody could do everything. So for a grounded example, my life was pretty bad.

Well, I feel the same way about progressives, um, but even some, uh, liberals for sure. Uh, Before I ask this question, it's going to relate to education. We can agree broadly speaking that statistics are real and that not everybody could do everything. So for a grounded example, my life was pretty bad.

And then, two, there's a general hopelessness when it comes to how society is ran or structured, such that you fall into that populist brain rot of, the only person that can save me is Donald Trump. I can't trust literally anything. And I think that when you start driving people into that direction, all it does is it further amplifies all the problems that you're complaining about.

And then, two, there's a general hopelessness when it comes to how society is ran or structured, such that you fall into that populist brain rot of, the only person that can save me is Donald Trump. I can't trust literally anything. And I think that when you start driving people into that direction, all it does is it further amplifies all the problems that you're complaining about.

So that's one of the reasons why when we talk about conservative participation, I want there to be more conservatives that are trying to participate in academia. But I feel like the leading thought or the leading speaking out against it is basically saying it's a waste of time. It's completely lost.

So that's one of the reasons why when we talk about conservative participation, I want there to be more conservatives that are trying to participate in academia. But I feel like the leading thought or the leading speaking out against it is basically saying it's a waste of time. It's completely lost.

Yeah, but that's the worst thing.

Yeah, but that's the worst thing.

I got into streaming and I turned my life around and that was really cool, but I can't expect everybody to do what I did, right? Like everybody being able to join the NBA or to be like a streamer. Of course, everybody has different qualities, sure. Okay. So I used to be a lot more libertarian when I was 20, 21.

I got into streaming and I turned my life around and that was really cool, but I can't expect everybody to do what I did, right? Like everybody being able to join the NBA or to be like a streamer. Of course, everybody has different qualities, sure. Okay. So I used to be a lot more libertarian when I was 20, 21.

Can you say that word, Justin? That's the one we all learned growing up. Anti-disestablishmentarianism.

Can you say that word, Justin? That's the one we all learned growing up. Anti-disestablishmentarianism.

And then some candidate group would say, well, what about supercalifragilisticexpialidocious? And then you're done. What about numeral to microscopic? Or the science terms. Yeah, exactly. Or what about the 7,000-letter thing that's from part of biochemistry?

And then some candidate group would say, well, what about supercalifragilisticexpialidocious? And then you're done. What about numeral to microscopic? Or the science terms. Yeah, exactly. Or what about the 7,000-letter thing that's from part of biochemistry?

That's why you're a useful person. Soviet Union math was that one plus one, how to make that equal three?

That's why you're a useful person. Soviet Union math was that one plus one, how to make that equal three?

Yeah, but I'm just curious on your general view of institutions. Do you think Biden or Trump would side with you more on how you view them?

Yeah, but I'm just curious on your general view of institutions. Do you think Biden or Trump would side with you more on how you view them?

And one of the things that dramatically changed kind of my view on government manipulation of things in the, I guess, in society came when it came time to deal with my son and the school that he went to. And one of the things that I noticed was when it came time to send my son to school, I could either do private education or I could do public.

And one of the things that dramatically changed kind of my view on government manipulation of things in the, I guess, in society came when it came time to deal with my son and the school that he went to. And one of the things that I noticed was when it came time to send my son to school, I could either do private education or I could do public.

I mean, that's not actually resisted some people's calls to like pack the court.

I mean, that's not actually resisted some people's calls to like pack the court.

Okay, just real quick, because that answer went a lot farther than I initially wanted. Yeah, just on the real quick thing, the reason why, again, my main problem that I feel like we have today in society is people are getting into their own bubbles. The idea of having conservative schools and liberal schools seems like the saddest thing in the world to me.

Okay, just real quick, because that answer went a lot farther than I initially wanted. Yeah, just on the real quick thing, the reason why, again, my main problem that I feel like we have today in society is people are getting into their own bubbles. The idea of having conservative schools and liberal schools seems like the saddest thing in the world to me.

I would want conservatives and liberals going to school together because I think these people need to interact with each other more, if for no other reason than to say that the other person is not an actual monstrous, horrible entity that wants to destroy the country.

I would want conservatives and liberals going to school together because I think these people need to interact with each other more, if for no other reason than to say that the other person is not an actual monstrous, horrible entity that wants to destroy the country.

I feel like the biggest issue that we have is people are, they sort into these different like phantom worlds to where even if you live in the same city, there are totally different worlds that exist between liberals and conservatives.

I feel like the biggest issue that we have is people are, they sort into these different like phantom worlds to where even if you live in the same city, there are totally different worlds that exist between liberals and conservatives.

And I feel like one of the big barriers to people understanding the other side, sometimes it's just a little bit of information or a little bit of like firsthand experience. So in terms of information, I'm sure you saw, I don't know if this is a full-on study, but they were talking about how

And I feel like one of the big barriers to people understanding the other side, sometimes it's just a little bit of information or a little bit of like firsthand experience. So in terms of information, I'm sure you saw, I don't know if this is a full-on study, but they were talking about how

some huge percentage of students would change their mind on from the river to the sea when you told them what from the river to the sea actually meant. Or when you said, yeah, what does a one-state solution mean? A lot of them, such that the numbers went from 70% to 30% in terms of support would fall. And it wasn't because you were doing a radical redefining of their whole ideology.

some huge percentage of students would change their mind on from the river to the sea when you told them what from the river to the sea actually meant. Or when you said, yeah, what does a one-state solution mean? A lot of them, such that the numbers went from 70% to 30% in terms of support would fall. And it wasn't because you were doing a radical redefining of their whole ideology.

You were just giving them a little bit more information. And then something that I've seen on a firsthand level is when I go and speak or do debates at university, sometimes I'm in very, very, very conservative areas. Some of my fans are trans.

You were just giving them a little bit more information. And then something that I've seen on a firsthand level is when I go and speak or do debates at university, sometimes I'm in very, very, very conservative areas. Some of my fans are trans.

Having like a trans person show up and talk to conservatives for a little bit, not like in a speech, but just like in like a bar or a setting, like a lot of them walk away. They're like, oh, not every trans person is like this insane lunatic from Twitter that is a fucking actual crazy person.

Having like a trans person show up and talk to conservatives for a little bit, not like in a speech, but just like in like a bar or a setting, like a lot of them walk away. They're like, oh, not every trans person is like this insane lunatic from Twitter that is a fucking actual crazy person.

And then for some of my fans, when they hang out with conservatives, like, oh, these guys are actually pretty friendly. I thought they would have all been homophobic, racist, transphobic and evil, but they're not. They're just like normal people. I feel like we need more of that.

And then for some of my fans, when they hang out with conservatives, like, oh, these guys are actually pretty friendly. I thought they would have all been homophobic, racist, transphobic and evil, but they're not. They're just like normal people. I feel like we need more of that.

And I feel like on our social media platforms, on our algorithms, in our schools, I feel like we're sorting harder and harder and harder. And any type of rhetoric that encourages the sorting is really bad and damaging. We need to continue to mix up. And there's other things I want to talk about, but Lex is opening his mouth.

And I feel like on our social media platforms, on our algorithms, in our schools, I feel like we're sorting harder and harder and harder. And any type of rhetoric that encourages the sorting is really bad and damaging. We need to continue to mix up. And there's other things I want to talk about, but Lex is opening his mouth.

Not like Trump.

Not like Trump.

Personally, I did 12 years of Catholic private education. However, the public schools in Nebraska, depending on where you lived, were very, very, very good. And I opted for a certain district. I bought a house there. I moved there. And then my son was able to go to those schools. And he's been going through those schools.

Personally, I did 12 years of Catholic private education. However, the public schools in Nebraska, depending on where you lived, were very, very, very good. And I opted for a certain district. I bought a house there. I moved there. And then my son was able to go to those schools. And he's been going through those schools.

I think that when we talk about relationships or marriage, I think something that's really important is we have to talk about whether or not children are being discussed or not. Because I think once you introduce the child aspect, I think the style or the type of relationship that you do is going to become way more important than whatever exists prior to that.

I think that when we talk about relationships or marriage, I think something that's really important is we have to talk about whether or not children are being discussed or not. Because I think once you introduce the child aspect, I think the style or the type of relationship that you do is going to become way more important than whatever exists prior to that.

I would agree, for instance, in terms of what Ben is saying, that There's probably going to be some structure that is ideal for the care and the raising of a child. I think that having a child gives you a much bigger buy-in to society because now all of a sudden you care about a lot of things that you might not have before because not only do you exist in society, you can't just run.

I would agree, for instance, in terms of what Ben is saying, that There's probably going to be some structure that is ideal for the care and the raising of a child. I think that having a child gives you a much bigger buy-in to society because now all of a sudden you care about a lot of things that you might not have before because not only do you exist in society, you can't just run.

Now you've got a child that exists there and you've got to ensure that everything functions smoothly, not just for you, but for that child as well. And arguably, although we're getting into weird places, I guess, in the world now, like children are the primary conduit for like where you transmit like cultural values and everything.

Now you've got a child that exists there and you've got to ensure that everything functions smoothly, not just for you, but for that child as well. And arguably, although we're getting into weird places, I guess, in the world now, like children are the primary conduit for like where you transmit like cultural values and everything.

The one kind of weird thing that we're coming up against that we have been coming up against now for some number of decades and will continue to is as societies progress, seems like people are having less children. And I actually don't know 100% what the answer is to that question. I do.

The one kind of weird thing that we're coming up against that we have been coming up against now for some number of decades and will continue to is as societies progress, seems like people are having less children. And I actually don't know 100% what the answer is to that question. I do.

And the difference of availability of technology, like these kids are taking home iPads in first grade. They've got huge computer labs and everything. Do you think that there is some type of, I don't want to say injustice or unfairness, because I'm not even looking at it that way, just pragmatically.

And the difference of availability of technology, like these kids are taking home iPads in first grade. They've got huge computer labs and everything. Do you think that there is some type of, I don't want to say injustice or unfairness, because I'm not even looking at it that way, just pragmatically.

I mean, an implementable answer that works, that we know we can get everybody on board with. It seems like for a large part of human history, having children, and it still is, having children is awesome and children are cool and children are magical and miraculous and all of this, but you didn't really have much competing for your attention to have a child, right?

I mean, an implementable answer that works, that we know we can get everybody on board with. It seems like for a large part of human history, having children, and it still is, having children is awesome and children are cool and children are magical and miraculous and all of this, but you didn't really have much competing for your attention to have a child, right?

When you hit a certain age and you started working, especially if you're a woman, I mean, childbirth is kind of the next step. And then having a family, raising your children, and then doing that is kind of the next step.

When you hit a certain age and you started working, especially if you're a woman, I mean, childbirth is kind of the next step. And then having a family, raising your children, and then doing that is kind of the next step.

Nowadays, especially with women being able to work, especially women having access to birth control, there's a lot available in the world that's competing for the interest of people that could otherwise be having children, such that we've almost flipped it, such that, as Ben brought up earlier, wealthy people tend to have less children than not wealthy people.

Nowadays, especially with women being able to work, especially women having access to birth control, there's a lot available in the world that's competing for the interest of people that could otherwise be having children, such that we've almost flipped it, such that, as Ben brought up earlier, wealthy people tend to have less children than not wealthy people.

Or unless you're part of particular religious communities that push childbirth a lot. I don't know if I would say there exists a moral imperative on an individual to have children. I think that there's a lot of interesting arguments down that path. I don't know if we're quite at the point yet where we need to say like, oh my God, we're running out of people. We need to have more kids.

Or unless you're part of particular religious communities that push childbirth a lot. I don't know if I would say there exists a moral imperative on an individual to have children. I think that there's a lot of interesting arguments down that path. I don't know if we're quite at the point yet where we need to say like, oh my God, we're running out of people. We need to have more kids.

I don't think we're quite there yet, but we are seeing weird demographic trends that are having big impacts on how countries are playing out. For instance, the fact that we have a disproportionately huge aging population that needs to be taken care of with medical expenses and everything that vote in different ways than our younger population.

I don't think we're quite there yet, but we are seeing weird demographic trends that are having big impacts on how countries are playing out. For instance, the fact that we have a disproportionately huge aging population that needs to be taken care of with medical expenses and everything that vote in different ways than our younger population.

And that when they die off, like the way that society is going to look is going to be a lot different. Yeah, I don't actually have a, I'm not entirely sure what the future is going to look like in terms of pushing people to have kids when every single industrialized country, as they become more industrialized, have fewer and fewer and fewer children.

And that when they die off, like the way that society is going to look is going to be a lot different. Yeah, I don't actually have a, I'm not entirely sure what the future is going to look like in terms of pushing people to have kids when every single industrialized country, as they become more industrialized, have fewer and fewer and fewer children.

And the answer, my answer was go to church. Religion. Yeah, I figured. Yeah.

And the answer, my answer was go to church. Religion. Yeah, I figured. Yeah.

You're really bringing up the red pill stuff. Are you avoiding answering? I mean, it's totally, it depends on who you are. If you're somebody that doesn't care about it, it doesn't. If you're somebody that does care about it, yeah, it does, of course. Depends on the... The answer is yes.

You're really bringing up the red pill stuff. Are you avoiding answering? I mean, it's totally, it depends on who you are. If you're somebody that doesn't care about it, it doesn't. If you're somebody that does care about it, yeah, it does, of course. Depends on the... The answer is yes.

Jesus. These are rapid fire? Yeah, just... I mean, it's probably empowering for the ones that are making a lot of money off it. It probably feels disempowering for others that feel affected by the cultural norms set by women that do OnlyFans. There's my rapid fire answer.

Jesus. These are rapid fire? Yeah, just... I mean, it's probably empowering for the ones that are making a lot of money off it. It probably feels disempowering for others that feel affected by the cultural norms set by women that do OnlyFans. There's my rapid fire answer.

That there might be children that are in certain schools that if they just had better funding or more access to technologies or things available to them, that those kids would become more productive members of society. That with a little bit of help, they could actually achieve more and do better for all of society.

That there might be children that are in certain schools that if they just had better funding or more access to technologies or things available to them, that those kids would become more productive members of society. That with a little bit of help, they could actually achieve more and do better for all of society.

I think it's really important to everybody will say that they're objective and that they are nonpartisan. I think it's really important to have mental safeguards for bad opinions. So, for instance, like a couple of things that I'll ask myself is for a particular debate that I'm having, like, can I argue convincingly both sides of the debate?

I think it's really important to everybody will say that they're objective and that they are nonpartisan. I think it's really important to have mental safeguards for bad opinions. So, for instance, like a couple of things that I'll ask myself is for a particular debate that I'm having, like, can I argue convincingly both sides of the debate?

If I can't, I won't bother having the debate because I realize that I'm probably too partisanly dug in if I can't even represent like an opposite argument here. Another question that you might ask yourself is like, well, what would it take to convince you out of a certain position? If you feel very strongly that Medicare for all is a good –

If I can't, I won't bother having the debate because I realize that I'm probably too partisanly dug in if I can't even represent like an opposite argument here. Another question that you might ask yourself is like, well, what would it take to convince you out of a certain position? If you feel very strongly that Medicare for all is a good –

you know, system by which to run the United States healthcare. And somebody says, well, what would it take you to convince you otherwise? If you can't even fathom, like, well, what would it take to convince me otherwise? You're probably too dug into a position.

you know, system by which to run the United States healthcare. And somebody says, well, what would it take you to convince you otherwise? If you can't even fathom, like, well, what would it take to convince me otherwise? You're probably too dug into a position.

So I think if you go through life saying like, well, I try my best to be unbiased rather than saying, I try to best, my best to be aware of my biases because the latter is more realistic and the former is literally impossible unless you're a computer. Yeah.

So I think if you go through life saying like, well, I try my best to be unbiased rather than saying, I try to best, my best to be aware of my biases because the latter is more realistic and the former is literally impossible unless you're a computer. Yeah.

So I think having like actual mental practices that you engage in to try to counter some of the biases that you have is more important than trying to pretend that you're free of all biases. and then consuming all your media from one source.

So I think having like actual mental practices that you engage in to try to counter some of the biases that you have is more important than trying to pretend that you're free of all biases. and then consuming all your media from one source.

My favorite thing about Ben Shapiro is, at least when we're in election season, he's very critical of his own party. I appreciate that.

My favorite thing about Ben Shapiro is, at least when we're in election season, he's very critical of his own party. I appreciate that.

I feel like Ben generally tries to adhere more to the fact-based arguments than other conservatives that I listen to, which is something that I appreciate because it's more fun to fight on the factual grounds of discussing things like foreign policy or whatever, rather than people that only inhabit the idealistic or philosophical grounds because they don't want to learn about any of the facts.

I feel like Ben generally tries to adhere more to the fact-based arguments than other conservatives that I listen to, which is something that I appreciate because it's more fun to fight on the factual grounds of discussing things like foreign policy or whatever, rather than people that only inhabit the idealistic or philosophical grounds because they don't want to learn about any of the facts.

So I appreciate that.

So I appreciate that.

Hey, thanks a lot. Thanks for having me.

Hey, thanks a lot. Thanks for having me.

And I can half agree with you there, but I don't think any amount of changes in the schools will create two parent households. Right. We can't bring it.

And I can half agree with you there, but I don't think any amount of changes in the schools will create two parent households. Right. We can't bring it.

Sure. But then I feel like we're now I feel like this is kind of the conservative merry-go-round where it's like, what can we do to help with schools? So two of the things that I've seen, I think, that are usually brought up in research is one is air conditioning, that children in hotter environments just don't learn as well. And then the second one is access to food.

Sure. But then I feel like we're now I feel like this is kind of the conservative merry-go-round where it's like, what can we do to help with schools? So two of the things that I've seen, I think, that are usually brought up in research is one is air conditioning, that children in hotter environments just don't learn as well. And then the second one is access to food.

So like kids that are given like a breakfast or a lunch that's provided at school, like increases educational outcomes. Now I agree that neither of these things might be determinative in like, well, 20% of kids were graduating and now 80% of kids are graduating or these kids are all going, you know, from with their GEDs into the workforce. And now these kids are all suddenly becoming engineers.

So like kids that are given like a breakfast or a lunch that's provided at school, like increases educational outcomes. Now I agree that neither of these things might be determinative in like, well, 20% of kids were graduating and now 80% of kids are graduating or these kids are all going, you know, from with their GEDs into the workforce. And now these kids are all suddenly becoming engineers.

But in terms of where we can help, Do you think there should be like some minimum threshold or minimum baseline of like, at the very least, every school should have a non-leaky gym or every school should have, if children can't afford lunch or breakfast, like some sort of food provided or every school should have these like baseline things?

But in terms of where we can help, Do you think there should be like some minimum threshold or minimum baseline of like, at the very least, every school should have a non-leaky gym or every school should have, if children can't afford lunch or breakfast, like some sort of food provided or every school should have these like baseline things?

Yeah, and I agree with you 100%. But again, I feel like we're on the conservative merry-go-round then of never wanting to address any- Not a conservative merry-go-round. I can give you 10 ways. Well, sure. But so here would be the merry-go-round. I would say that there is a minimum funding for schools that I think would help children.

And then we go, well, the thing that would help them the most is two-parent households. Then I go, okay, well, two-parent households actually aren't the problem. The issue is access to things like birth controls that people don't have children early on. But the issue isn't actually birth control.

The issue is actually you need a certain amount of money to move out early and to get married and then to have a two-parent household. So it's actually like economic opportunity. No, just two-parent households. That's it. Don't fuck people before you're married and have babies. Sure. Done. That's great.

We can say that and try to fight against, you know, however many hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution, but people will have sex and people will make babies.

But a lot of those things in terms of resting on whether or not people get married have to do with financial decisions.

People are delaying the start of their careers because education's becoming increasingly important.

I'm saying that one of the biggest indicators for whether or not somebody's willing to get married is how much money both people are making if they can move out of their household. People don't tend to want to get married at 22 when they've just finished college, when they don't have the money to move out and they can't afford a

A child deserves a mother and a father.

Do we think that shotgun marriages are, well, let's say this. Do we think that that's a reasonable direction that society would ever take?

It was, but history moves in one direction. Why? Because of time.

I don't think we've ever regressed social standards back to like, oh, well, let's go 100 years back and do things that used to exist before.

The Roe versus Wade is not a social standard. It's a Supreme Court ruling, number one. Number two, if you read the actual majority opinion on Roe v. Wade, we can see that socially we actually never made huge progress on how society viewed abortion. This has always been an incredibly divisive thing, right?

Even that was, I think, part of Alito's writing on it was that things like gay marriage, for instance, we've kind of moved past and it's not really as debated anymore. But abortion was never a settled topic.

What do we mean by that?

Well, in terms of communism being a regression, for instance, I'm not a communist, but the industrialization of the Soviet Union happened under a communist society. The industrialization- The murder of tens of millions of people.

I don't think that all of history moves in one direction. There are going to be wars. There are going to be times of peace. I think in general, we're more peaceful now than we have been in the past. But I think when we look at the way that people live their lives, I think that we tend to move in a certain direction socially.

So when it comes to things like racism or when it comes to things like slavery or women's rights, I think that there are two huge things that probably aren't changing in the US. And one is access to contraception. And one is women working jobs. I think that these two things are probably huge things that are moving us off of shotgun marriages or getting married very early on.

And I don't see – do you think that those two things are going to change fundamentally?

But those women aren't getting shotgun marriages.

I agree with you, but that's because one of the biggest precursors to getting married is having like a level of economic stability. So as people get more educated, they obtain this economic stability, and then they're in a more comfortable position to explore more serious relations.

I don't think it's unbreakable or unshatterable. The initial point was for school, if we can provide a minimum level of educational stuff for children, that'd probably be good. But when we retreat back to, well, it has to be the families that are fixed first, fixing families is a multivariate problem.

Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but I'm just saying that, again, on your episode when I bring up the term merry-go-round, I think that there are good conversations to be had about people getting married because stable families produce stable children that are less likely to commit crime, that are more likely to go to school, that are more likely to be productive members of society, et cetera, et cetera.

I'm not going to disagree with you on any of that. All of that is true. It's just frustrating that sometimes when you bring up any problem, all of it will circle back to other things that makes it seem like we can't make any progress in any area without fixing In what way?

Yeah, but so for instance, on the local level, so for school funding, school funding is done, I think, generally per district. So what do you do when you have poor districts that can't afford air conditioning for their schools?

And I 1 billion percent agree. And then obviously my criticism for the conservative side is the exact opposite, where there are parts where government could remedy some issues. For instance, you know, children having sex with each other and producing other children out of wedlock. Like sometimes having after school programs is nice to prevent that.

Like I didn't have time for these things when I was in school. I was doing football practice. I was doing cross country practice. I went in early for a band, you know. I agree with you that sometimes people only focus on one end of the problem as a, I hate to be that guy, but as somebody that, have you ever watched The Wire? Sure.

I'm not going to cite The Wire as a real life example, but like obviously there's only so much you can do in a school when the children coming in are so beyond destroyed because of the family life and everything prior to them even getting to school that day. So I agree. Government is not like the solution to broken families. That would never be the case.

The only thing I'm looking at is, as I said earlier, just like these minimum threshold things where it's like, where can government make, because you mentioned marginal, which I think is a really good way to look at things. There's marginal costs and marginal utility to things where the first $1,000 per student you spend might give you a huge return, but the extra $20,000 after is just a waste.

This is one of the areas where we get into this. I don't understand if there's brain breaking happening or what's going on. I don't know what world we can ever live in where we say that Trump is less divisive for the country than Biden. I think it is so patently obvious. Trump is so divisive.

Not only does Trump make an enemy out of every person in the opposition party, he makes an enemy out of his own party and every single person around him. We all watched him bully Jeff Sessions. We all watched him bully his own party on Twitter. We all watched all of these people walk away from him.

Even recently, I think the Secretary of Defense Esper and John Kelly, the chief of staff, were saying, I think Trump is a threat to democracy. You've got all of his prior people that were around him, some of his closest allies. You've got Bill Barr that won't co-sign a single thing that he says. You've got all these people that he used to work with that all say Trump is a horrible, evil person.

He is ineffective as a leader. He doesn't accomplish anything. And he didn't.

To say that Biden has failed at bipartisanship when we've gotten the CHIPS Act, we've gotten the IRA, we've gotten the ARP, we've gotten the bipartisan infrastructure bill, when we've gotten all this major legislation that is working in this historically divided Congress, as opposed to Trump that got us tax cuts and deficit spending.

I don't understand where we ever are in this world where Biden is somehow more divisive than Trump. Even the speeches that Ben is bringing up, they always bring up, I remember that one, I think we might have even done it on our episode, the one speech that Biden gave where at one point the background is red. Yeah, the Philly speech I referenced.

Yeah, and they're like, oh my God, it's over, this is the end. And then meanwhile, you've got Donald Trump coming into office saying things like, if you burn the flag, you should have your citizenship revoked. Or talking about MSDNC, that I'm going to investigate every single one of these media organizations for corruptness. I'm going to open the libel and defamation laws.

I'm going to take all of these guys to court. You've got this weird Project 2025 stuff where – John Paschal, I think, is talking about, we're going to investigate all of these people and we're going to try to throw crimes at all these people. Trump is like the most divisive president I think we've ever had, at least in my lifetime of being an American citizen.

And the rhetoric from him is just, it's on a whole other level in terms of the demonization of political opponents. I mean, this is a guy that's known for giving his political opponents bad nicknames, right? That's what Trump does. It's funny, but even as a resident of Florida, If Florida had another natural disaster, do you think Trump would withhold aid?

Because you had – I think that was one of the few nice things that DeSantis actually said about Biden was like, hey, listen, when the buildings collapsed in – Surfside, yeah. Miami Beach, yeah. For the hurricane stuff, that Biden was there. He was saying, if you guys need aid, however many billions, you can have it.

Meanwhile, Trump, I think, was threatening to withhold federal funding from blue states that wouldn't – I think it had to do with the National Guard stuff, the deployment of the National Guard, that they weren't doing enough for the riots, and Trump was threatening to withhold aid from some of these blue states. Yeah, Trump is literally the most divisive person in the world.

I don't see how on any metric he is ever succeeding in the divisive category. In terms of the economy, I do think it's funny that Republicans are very keen to say that, well, we can't really grade Trump post-COVID, because obviously COVID messed everything up, which is fair. But pre-COVID, What did Trump do? He did deficit spending tax cuts.

He presided over historic low interest rates and an economy that was already blazing past the final years of Obama. We were posting all-time highs on all the stock markets in 2013 onwards. Unemployment rates were falling. Now under Biden, unemployment rates are even lower than they were under Trump. But it sucks that for Trump, we can say, well, we can't really hold him accountable for 2020.

That was COVID. Well, all we have for Biden is post-COVID. We don't have any pre-COVID Biden economy. And it was the same thing for Obama, too, coming in right after the housing collapse as well. And it sucks that Republicans are able to walk out of office having burned the entire American society to the ground economically. And now we've got to try to evaluate, OK, well,

What did Obama do during his first two to three to four years just trying to recover from where the housing crash left it? And then we look at Biden now, who's trying to recover from COVID, and now we're grading him on a totally different scale than what Trump is being graded on. Yeah, that sucks, I think.

On the foreign policy, I'm going to be honest, I am very liberal. I'm very not progressive. I'll probably come off as more hawkish than others because I'm not a big fan of this, which also, if Ben agrees, I think people like Trump are going to be the most dovish, isolationist people ever. They don't want to do anything internationally. They just want to

protect America, be at home, protect our economy, don't do anything internationally, which is why he was constantly undermining NATO and constantly attacking the European Union and cheering on the UK for Brexiting away from the EU. I think that being said, I think that Biden has done a phenomenal job when it comes to foreign policy.

I think that the coalition building was so important for Ukraine-Russia, and I'm so happy that he decided to go to our European allies and our NATO allies and try to build a coalition of people to help Ukraine so that that wasn't only the United States.

Personally, especially after doing a whole bunch of research, I do tend to side with Israel over Palestine and a lot of the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts. I'm glad that Biden, while remaining a staunch defender of Israel, is trying to rein in some of the more aggressive posturing towards the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.

I'm proud that Biden said, hey, listen, we're going to delay some of these attacks. Hey, listen, we are going to allow humanitarian aid here. Hey, listen, we are going to try to not kill as many Palestinian people down there while still signaling that he would be a staunch supporter of Israel in the conflict, assuming the civilian casualties don't go too high.

For foreign policy, I mean, blemishes. I mean, the biggest one you can give to Biden is Afghanistan in the poll out there. But man, are we going to talk about the Inspector General report that says that one of the biggest reasons why the Afghanistan poll was so disastrous was because of the Doha Accords, where Donald Trump headed talks that didn't even include the

Biden took office, we had 2,500 troops left in Afghanistan. What was the options even afforded to Biden at that point? Obviously, you've got the abandonment of the Kurds in northern Syria for the Turkish armies to lay waste to. You're talking about Iran and North Korea, although I'm not sure we're... Ben would land on those, but yeah, that's a broad light.

I'm going to try to be concise when I say this. Broadly speaking, especially in studying Israel-Palestine and Ukraine-Russia, I try not to take politicians at their word because sometimes they just say stuff to say stuff. I understand that. But broadly speaking, I'm going to look at the rhetoric and the actions, and I am going to grade them the same.

So yes, I would hold Biden and Trump to the same standards.

Can I ask you, like, for our head of state, our chief executive, shouldn't rhetoric be arguably one of the most important things that he does?

One thing that I would ask you about that, though, is I agree, especially when you look at the favorability. But sometimes when I look at these polls, when you start to disaggregate them by party, I wonder if it's actually is Biden historically divisive or I'm trying to think of a really polite way to say this. The people that like Trump worship Trump. I don't know.

Like one of the most prescient things that Trump could have probably ever said was that I could kill someone on Fifth Street and nobody would hold me accountable. So is it really that Biden is historically divisive or is it that every single Trump supporter will always say that Trump is great.

I mean, the allegiance to Trump.

Just one quick thing, I guess, because we can say the reality of it and we can look at opinion polls. What if we look at legislative accomplishments? Biden is working on a 50-50 divided Senate. Donald Trump had both House of Congress and the Supreme Court and got no major legislation passed. Well, I mean, he did lose Congress in 2018.

But prior to that, we got the we got the infrastructure bill, I think, in one year, which Trump promised for his entire presidency didn't get anywhere.

But they were in favor of mass spending for tax cuts.

That's great. But at the end of the day, the government is still going to be in a deficit spending and they're going to have to borrow money from the treasury.

But how do you explain the lack of legislation?

He's the head of the Republican Party. He's the president, Republican president of the United States.

Yeah. Okay. Wait, real quick. So for instance, like Donald Trump wanted to punish China and he wanted to bring a microprocessor manufacturer to the United States. Biden did that with legislation with the CHIPS Act. You talk about like spending being out of control. And I mean, I can agree with that. I think anybody that looks at the numbers has to agree with that.

But why not pass legislation like the Inflation Reduction Act, which is at least like spending neutral?

Okay, so then just to understand, so if somebody just did massive reductions in tax receipts, so tax cut after tax cut after tax cut, but they didn't change spending at all, you wouldn't consider that an increase in deficit spending or out-of-control spending? You would just say they're just tax cuts?

Okay. So then was it under Trump then when he did the tax?

I agree. But we're in a post, how many trillions of dollars have been dumped in worldwide that are leading to inflation? The inflation is a worldwide issue right now because of the economy shutting down for a year or two. It's not like those effects are gone and one year, right? COVID might be gone, but the after effects of all the stimulus spending and the unemployment and everything else.

Sure. I agree. But there's also the definition of when do you deficit spend is when economies are headed for recessions, right? Rather than when economies are doing really well, like they were under Trump and he was deficit spending, whereas Biden can at least make the argument that I ought to be deficit spending because the economy is heading for potentially

Every economist.

A lot because of the American recovery plan, right? That Biden did as well. Yeah. I mean, 4 million jobs.

Probably... That's a hard one. The factors that I'm making right now are... Obviously, you've got the Israel-Palestinian war that's going on right now, which is kind of bad. But broadly speaking, I'm not sure how much that affects the Middle East as much as the collapse of Syria. 2013 Syrian civil war sent...

millions of immigrants throughout all of Europe, which was under Obama and continued under Trump. Trump didn't do anything to alleviate any of the Syrian civil war. Why did Syria end up as a preserve of Russia again? How did Syria end up as a preserve of Russia?

Do you think there might have been some hesitancy after like seeing how Libya ended up that maybe us like intervening?

What does that have to do with anything? There might have been a mistake learned.

I don't think that Trump contributed to the Syrian situation improving much.

ISIS had been getting wrecked by the Kurds in Iraq, by every single person, by Assad's army by Putin, by Turkey, literally everybody was fighting against ISIS at that point.

Yeah, but I don't know if ISIS is originating in Syria and Baghdadi and all of the growth of that is necessarily Obama's fault. I know that we like to say that Obama created ISIS. I don't know if you say that, but I've heard that saying a lot. I think that's a little bit simplistic. I don't think that when I'm looking at actions that presidents have taken, the

The biggest criticism I have for Middle Eastern policy is I think the Doha Accords were a disaster, and I think that's one of the biggest blemishes that we have right now. I would also argue that moving the embassy to Jerusalem was also kind of silly and arguably contributed to some of the conflict we see right now between Israel and Palestine.

Sure, sure. So just on a couple of Middle Eastern things. So one of the big things that threw the Middle East into disaster was what we are all traumatized by it now is the Iraq evasion, which I'm a Republican president. Sure. You agree with that, right? Sure.

The deposition of Saddam Hussein and everything that followed after probably contributed more to the growth of ISIS and the destabilization of that entire region, probably more than anything else.

I think that prior to Bush, for Clinton, and even at the beginning of Bush's presidency, we were on some kind of road to normalcy with Iran, which I think has to happen, whether we like them or not, until Bush, for whatever reason, decides to throw Iran into the axis of evil.

My understanding is that, yeah, from the late 90s and prior to the axis of evil labeling of Iran, that there was going to be some path forward to where we could start to normalize relationships with them.

We can disagree on that.

I agree. Yeah, because of the destabilization of Iraq. And Iraq not having a government there that was functional for at least a decade. And was, in fact, a Sunni government, right?

Banning all the former Ba'ath parties.

Yeah, all horrible. Under. Republican president. Don't disagree. Yeah, that that probably contributed more to ISIS, to the growth of power in Iran, maybe even to the destabilization of Syria, probably more than anything that Obama did. Also, when we look at Iran funding people in the region, I don't disagree with that as well.

I think Iran is the number one instigator of bad guy things right now in the Middle East. Iran, the IRGC, I supported when Donald Trump killed Soleimani. I think that was a great thing. I think that Iran is a major problem. However, I don't know if the path forward is constantly being a belligerent to Iran or trying to figure out some road to normalcy.

I don't know if the collapse of Iran or the destruction of that country, considering how unpopular the Atoll even is there, like the citizens of Iran, I don't think are big supporters of the government there. I feel like moving on a path where, you know, let's do our nuclear inspections. We had that Iranian nuclear deal that Trump pulled out of. Let's do the nuclear inspections.

Make sure you're not on the way to nuclear weapons. Let's unfreeze some funds. Let's move in some direction where we get on a good term with you. I feel like that's the most important thing that needs to happen in the Middle East. As much as people like to look at the Abraham Accords, who cares if, what was it, Bahrain, I think Oman, I think Sudan.

The UAE and Morocco, yeah. All of these people, even Saudi Arabia, already have de facto normalization with Israel anyways. They're all trading.

But after Turkey – After Jordan, and then in the past 20 years of economic relations and ties with each other, all of the leadership in the Middle East, and you'll agree with this, look at Israel and they go, okay, well, we've got Palestinians who, God bless them, do nothing.