Detective Scott Roberts
Appearances
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Your name has come up in a murder investigation. That's why the state is here. That's why we have fed help to help speak to us. And as he said, at any time, you're free to leave. But we would like to speak to you and answer our questions if you don't mind.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
We had tracked Matt down, I mean, because he's a fisherman, and he was doing a tournament in Arizona. So loaded up the plane, went out there, and we figured out where it was being held, and it was like a little hotel or something like that where they checked in. So basically, me and I think it was another detective waited in the lobby, found out that he had come in.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
And then as he was walking back out is when I met him right there in the lobby. We go back to the car because that's where all our stuff is. He agreed to talk to us, asked him to, as we're speaking, just tell the truth, nothing but the truth. We get into it and he goes into their marriage was fine. They weren't going to get divorced. We were in love, that type of thing.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
We talked about the cheating and that's when he basically said, yeah, I did. We talked about the real estate. He said that really wasn't a problem, which was kind of confusing because when you're getting conflicting statements from people, her friends were saying that it was a problem, you know.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
And then we got to the fact of, towards the end, because he was getting a little antsy in regards to Richard Engel. And do you know this person? Do you know that name? And he said, no. Show him the picture. No, I don't know him at all.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Once the officers get there, they discover the door slightly ajar and immediately see, when you walk in, stuff on the floor, a sweater, a shoe, keys, and a cell phone. They call her name. They call out. They don't hear too much. They're walking around, and it's a very small apartment. And two officers eventually find her and hear her moaning in the closet. She's collapsed.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
But first, I guess she's sitting down in a laundry basket. She's got two gunshot wounds.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
To be honest, we were hoping that she was going to pull through and that we would be able to get some information to help us in the case, but unfortunately, she passed.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
The motive doesn't appear to be robbery, so the motive appears to be personal, like there was some personal conflict between someone in that home and our suspect. Up close and personal, pretty much. I mean, don't see where anything was taken, don't see where anything was left. You know, it just seemed like they wanted them not around.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
We started getting information, quite a bit of information from confidential informants that, you know, we have in the city, people that we talked to about the case that led us to, you know, we do have a person of interest. Several names come up, but through those different names that came up, this one sticks out the most.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
So there are other persons of interest, but there is one main person of interest, yes. He's a known user, known to move stuff on the street quite often, whether it's stolen stuff, personal stuff, just move and sell on the street, you know, kind of hustling.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
If we convicted on the rumor mill, half the city would be locked up right now. If we could just go, oh, the whole community here just said this person did it and you're going to jail. We can't do that. But half the city would be locked up right now because everybody's about telling on somebody else but not wanting to go to jail.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
the courtroom and testify under oath that they're swearing, you know, the information because they heard it from so-and-so, they heard it from their hairdresser, they heard it from their mechanic, you know, so it's constantly chasing down those things.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
We heard that too, but that was early on. There still is gang activity that may possibly be cartel-related or believed to be cartel-related that are in this area as well. And that was one of the rumors. But we almost hear that same rumor come up with each homicide case that we have. We can't rule that out.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
So there again, we have Charlie, who is our most probable person of interest, but we're open-minded that there could be something else. Maybe Charlie was, you know, contacted by this alleged cartel. You know, anything's possible. My thoughts, my intuition tells me it's one person. It was personal, and others were witnesses, and they didn't want witnesses.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
And solving this case is going to depend if that person responsible shared any information with somebody about it, then that person he shared or told it to, those are the people I need to come forward.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Disheartening to us because we want to speak for the victim and we want to try and help the victim's family because it weighs on us heavily. You know, when we have these cases that we know somebody's got that bit of information, we know it's there and they don't come forward, then there's nothing that we can do. I always have hopes that we'll talk to that right person.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
As time goes on, it's not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it's a good thing. When time goes on, people may not be in the same situation themselves as they were in 2019. And you come right back around and loop with them and meet up with them and everything you needed is right there. There is some other things that the crime lab at that time wasn't taking that they would take now.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
As I reviewed some of this stuff, I thought, I'm going to follow up with some of those items just to see. Because you don't always send everything you got to the crime lab. You send what you think is relevant. But we have a lot of evidence, so could other things be submitted? Yes, absolutely.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
There could be some other stuff, but I want some relevance before sending that, you know, not just, are we going to get something from this? Are we going to get something from that? It's, you know, definitely the shell casings and things like that went, and I hope that there will be a connection with that at some point.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
We've got a lot of older cases, too, that we're working on. And I always try to explain to the families, there's hope. As long as you have somebody willing to try and keep the case alive and the momentum going, there's hope. Don't ever give up on hope. Sometimes we can solve a case, and sometimes we can't.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
So they're going to do what we would naturally do, clear the rest of the house, make sure we don't have whoever did this or we don't have a witness in the house as to what has happened to her. Did anybody else see anything? And then during the search of the house is when the other two victims were located together. There was a significant amount of blood.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
We could look at that scene even before touching them and know that, you know, they had passed.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
It was a known drug home where people would come in and out of and use drugs. I can't tell you for a fact that they would buy drugs from that house, but we know that there had been some claims of prostitution in that area and some drug use in that area. It looked like it was a house where people would just crash maybe from time to time.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
But there was some areas, some of the rooms looked like they were lived in. There was no power at the house. There was no water at the house. So at that time, it looked like people were just staying there. We had also heard that the rooms would be rented from time to time. But with that, any and everybody had been in that house.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
So we probably had hundreds of people's prints that had been in that house. You see what I'm saying?
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
In Moss Point, when we have something, the crowd starts growing. There's usually on an average 50 to 200 people that are up and down the street because everybody knows it's such a small community with 13,000, 14,000 residents that when something happens... Everybody, not because everybody gets on their phones and everybody knows somebody that knows somebody that knows the relative.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
And relatives usually will arrive on scene, which is sometimes problematic because we have crime scene tape up for a reason. People will try to get into the crime scene and it's insane. Here's Asia's uncle, Terrence.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
I mean, we had a lot of information. We had an overabundance of information, but nothing was firsthand information. So it was a lot of speculation and rumors that came in initially in the case.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Who did they hang out with? Who did they have problems with? What hobbies they have? What interests? Tell me about their social aspects. Do they get online a lot? So we try to immerse ourselves with knowing as much about that victim so we can narrow who that person, you know, who had access. You know, with this house, did somebody, was it somebody they knew?
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Did the door stay locked or unlocked all the time? Did somebody just walk in? Did somebody break in? We didn't see the house was secured with the exception of the front door at that time. So we're like, did they know this person? So those are questions that we try to figure out early on.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
He was a person we were familiar with from calls that we've answered or responded to. He had been arrested a few times. So we knew him. We were familiar with him.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Pretty much every investigator who's come in on the case, we think what likely happened is that they had left the party together. Robert likely made a move to Susie, which she probably did not like, which either caused an argument or he continued to come on to her. And obviously, when they did not go towards her house, probably asked to get out of the vehicle.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
We think that she probably did not get out of the vehicle at that point. And whether a struggle ensued or they continued to drive or if there was an altercation or fight or something in the car, or if she did get out and they did try to force her back in the car, we don't believe that she had ever actually gotten out of the car and left that area.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
The theory is that she was likely sexually assaulted and dumped out in the forest.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
The case kind of, it's never not, it's never just like done. It's not done being investigated, but it does ebb and flow with technology information. So there are times where nothing happens for a few years.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
We sent those to a private lab to do rootless hair DNA. And they told us that they have like a one in three chance to get DNA from rootless hair. I think we sent like six or seven of them and struck out on all of them. So we got no DNA from those hairs. They may have been Susie's hairs, we don't know.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Reading back on the evidence reports and then now sending evidence, you know, years later, it just seems like we just need that one break. And it just seems like we haven't got the chips to fall our way. We had to talk about, do we try to do stuff with DNA now or do we give it another, you know, five years, another 10 years?
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Because think of all the DNA advancements that have happened over the last five to 10 years already. How much more sensitive, how much less DNA you need? Is it possible that, you know, continues to happen? And are we going to ruin whatever DNA that we are looking for now and be able to find that five to ten years from now?
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Really, all the rumors that have gone around, I think, hasn't really helped bring factual information. I guess 34 years later, it is like a game of telephone and people's memories probably fade over the years. And over time, those stories probably get a little bit more foggy. Even if people do remember certain things that happened, that information isn't as fresh anymore.
The Deck
Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)
What had happened was, and I remember this all the time, so we were interviewing him, and he had his legs crossed and his arms were crossed, meaning he's not talking to us. And I asked him nicely, put your legs down, sit up straight and act right. And I said to him, you started to hurt these women because your mother wasn't here to protect you. And he started shaking his head. Remember that?
The Deck
Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)
I said, you've been hurting these women. And he shook his head, yes. And then he put his head in his hands, looked up and said, I want my psychiatrist and an attorney.
The Deck
Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)
You'd have to watch every tape. I think there was 40-something tapes. And in between these movies, then it would be spliced in of an attack of a female.
The Deck
Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)
And most, well, the three of them positively identified Miller as the suspect who attacked them.
The Deck
Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)
The knife was taken from a butcher block, which was on top of the refrigerator. And I don't remember if we found the knife, Bill.
The Deck
Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)
Like it's a stone's throw to the college. I think the area he stays in is called College Town. So there's a laundromat a block away from where he's staying, and it's a 24-hour laundromat. Well, that's his M.O. They put him right back where he does everything. And so it's like, this is unbelievable.
The Deck
Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)
It was one of the larger knives. And if I remember right, the wound was down between her collarbone. It went down, hit the aorta, and she bled out right there.
The Deck
Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)
And she was a petite woman. She was a small-framed woman. And so she just folded. It was a very cold-blooded thing.
The Deck
Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)
He just said that they danced. He saw the cards exchanged.
The Deck
Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)
We don't know her eating patterns, so it could have been just for her and she kept some in the refrigerator for lunch the next day, or she could have ordered for two.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
They tried to get a search warrant for a cell tower dump. So they just wanted to get everybody's phone that was in the area that night and start picking through it. But the court denied it, wouldn't allow it.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Someone had come forward after seeing the picture and saying that a man that will identify as Mike was playing cards and said, that is my work, as if to say he's the one who killed Kyle Seidel. Then we started looking into him. There was no clear alibi for him that night.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
We heard that there was some arguments made by another person that we'll call Ron saying that Mike didn't do it, I did it. So we started looking at both of those people and we saw that there is a connection between those two people outside of prison. They were known to hang out together.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Mike and Ron both have extensive criminal histories. Mike's was mostly narcotics-related, sale counts, things of that nature. And Ron has a more violent criminal history, also has drug offenses, but shootings and things of that nature.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
We had a family member of Mike's come forward and say that Mike admitted it to him that he had killed Kyle Seidel and that he had come over to a house that night and was acting very nervous and said he had to get out of town and went into a neighboring town later that night.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
We had a task force officer try to build a narcotics case on him to get him locked up in hopes that if he was in prison, maybe other witnesses would come forward. They would feel safe knowing that he was already locked up and he wouldn't be able to serve any kind of retribution on him. So that didn't work out. Mike got arrested on a narcotics charge in late 2015, and that's when we talked to him.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
He just cried a lot, but said nothing about the homicide, just denied any ever being at the bowling alley, denied knowing Kyle, denied ever being involved in any kind of violence. He basically just denied and said he didn't know what we were talking about.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
He basically came in the room, sat down. As soon as we started talking to him, he said, I'm all set, I don't want to talk, and left.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Yeah, so the tower dump that we executed came back with a lot of information. We got a lot of phone calls from Mike to his girlfriend, other family members, other friends. We also got Ron's information. He made several phone calls. Notably, he called the hospital emergency room.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Ron's calls to the Baltimore emergency room seemed like something you would do to cover your tracks or to see what the status is of Kyle, to see if he had died or if he was still alive.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Amanda said that she was actually with Mike and Ron the night that Kyle Seidel was shot. Amanda says they pulled into the family bowl. She wasn't sure what was going on, why they were there. But Mike and Ron both got out of the car, which in her experience meant that they were probably going to rob somebody. Because if it was just a drug deal, then only one of them would have got out of the car.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And so she witnessed the shooting. Mike and Ron got back in the car, and then they left.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
She has a lengthy criminal history and a lot of that criminal history has to do with deception. So whether it's fraud, defrauding people she was supposed to be trusted by, larcenies and things of that nature, it doesn't make her a great witness. So while her information is great and we can use some of that as investigative leads, the court
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
is not confident that they can bring this case to trial based on her testimony alone.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Julie came forward and said that she took Mike to a small chop shop to actually get rid of the murder weapon used in the Seidel homicide. But based on Julie's statements of when and where it occurred, those things couldn't have happened.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
It's tough because when these people came forward, it was so many years after the fact that even if they are telling the truth or trying to tell the most accurate story they can, it's been so long that they get their dates mixed up. But that's part of the reason probably why the court's looking at it, that they can't take it to trial because a defense attorney is going to tear their stories apart.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
One possible theory is that Kyle, with a history of some drug use, was going to the bowling alley to purchase drugs since he had a recent Christmas bonus from work. And since he wasn't a regular user, he might have been hooked up with these guys, Mike and Ron. And because he was possibly a first-time buyer, they just robbed him of his money.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
The second theory is based on Mike and Ron's history with guns and having guns, is that Kyle was looking to purchase a gun and a text from just a couple of days before the homicide. Kyle texted one of his friends saying he was going to buy a .45 pistol, and that's the caliber of weapon that was used to shoot Kyle.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
The third caller, a male who identified himself as a corrections officer, stated, looks like he's got a bullet hole to his chest. He moved his head for a second. His car is running. The door is open. He's on the ground. Looks like he might have gotten into an altercation and got shot.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
I think just if people are listening to this, then they will hopefully think about coming forward with any little bit of information that could help connect Kyle somehow to these people or even just connect these people to that area. It would be great to have a reason why they were both there at the same time. We believe we've definitely developed probable cause.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
We just need just that little extra information that would place Kyle in the area with those suspects for some reason.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
We just want to stress to anybody that was close to Kyle, friends and family, that might be either looking out for his reputation or their own reputation, that any small bit of evidence or leads can be very important to this case.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
We interviewed, you know, lots of people that were close to Kyle, one of which, when we interviewed them, it felt like they were holding back and weren't telling us everything just based on their emotional response. And we asked to have that person be part of a polygraph. They agreed, but then shortly afterwards contacted us and said that they did not want to take the polygraph.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
They're not going to be looked at in a bad light. And solving his homicide is a lot more important than Kyle either wanting to buy an illegal gun or buying some drugs. None of that matters at this point. It's just trying to help the family out and solve this homicide problem.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
The sergeant asked the male, who did this? He asked again, who shot you? The male did not answer. The male's jaw quivered as if he was trying to speak, but he was unable to do so.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
So based on the positioning of the vehicle, it was parked at an angle, so not totally within one parking spot. And the door was open, engine running, headlights on. So it seemed like he either pulled in quickly or needed to exit his vehicle fairly quickly.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
He had at least a second to try to defend himself, you know, by no DNA on that other than Kyle's. So that never got used. Basically, Kyle was never close enough to the person who shot him that he was able to use the knife on him.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
So the most difficult part of the case is that there was no real evidence that we were able to get from anybody else. The only evidence we collected was from the victim, including his knife that was open near the rear tire of the car. Nothing was collected that would say that somebody else was there.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
That's when the detectives and the investigator started asking her about use of drugs or anything like that. Kate said that Kyle occasionally smoked marijuana and formerly used coke when he was younger. She estimated that he smoked marijuana twice a week.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
The first kind of motive we had came from a family member of Kyle's who just said, you know, a gut feeling. I think maybe someone cut him off or he cut someone else off. And it was like a road rage incident that occurred. And that kind of goes along with the way the cars parked.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
You would barely be able to see anything in that parking lot. You can barely make out the family bowl because you have the lights on the businesses that are on Route 1 that kind of drown out the background and make it seem even darker to the eye. So you're not seeing anything back there.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Well, we had theories that because he had just gotten a bonus from the Christmas party that maybe he was going out to buy some harder drugs than marijuana just to celebrate if he was into that kind of thing. Again, they're just trying to go through Kyle's life and find anything that can give us a reason why he was there and if he was going to meet someone or not.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Kyle said that he was going to buy a .45 caliber pistol. And that's what started leading us down that road. Was he meeting someone to buy a gun? And then the deal just went bad.
The Deck
Javed Akhtar (Jack of Diamonds, Connecticut)
It was adamant that he needed to speak with somebody in cold case, that he knew the details of what was going on in East Windsor's homicide, and that if somebody came down there, he would take us, show us the scene, and he would explain exactly what happened and who did it.
The Deck
Javed Akhtar (Jack of Diamonds, Connecticut)
The working theory and hope here is that those two suspects have told at least one person, and then that one person maybe told another person, and that kind of scattered through the years to the point where maybe somebody's out there that wants to give us that one little bit of information that's going to help us across the finish line.
The Deck
Javed Akhtar (Jack of Diamonds, Connecticut)
The two men were described, two black males, one wearing a white jacket, the other wearing a dark hoodie. Now, that's important because we spoke with another person who would have been in the area of the one-stop who also described hearing some sort of a commotion at the one-stop. And when he looked over, he did see two people running, one in a white jacket and one in a dark hoodie.
The Deck
Javed Akhtar (Jack of Diamonds, Connecticut)
He was kind. He was a person that if somebody was short on money trying to purchase something, he would just give them the item at whatever they had or just give them the item. And Chief Carl heard the same things.
The Deck
Javed Akhtar (Jack of Diamonds, Connecticut)
There were two registers. Neither register was tampered with. No money was taken. Nothing else seemed to be tampered with. I believe there was a safe and the safe was intact.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
So we get called down there. They talked to the guy that found the tires. And while you can't say 100% with certainty, they matched the hubcaps from the AMC to a T.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
So what it's presumed happened was somebody took the wheels off of the AMC, which was almost a brand new car, and popped the hubcaps off the wheels and then put the new wheels on their vehicle and discarded their old wheels with the hubcaps.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
So they kind of ran into a dead end with that because I think they were trying to narrow down who would have this type of car and it was just, there was just too many. And we don't know if that was somebody who was involved with Robert's disappearance or if it was somebody who was being an opportunist and saw the car sitting there and said, I could use those tires and I could use that battery.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
and, you know, took him from the car without being involved with what happened to Robert. It's a possibility, but it's also possible that they are also the ones that are responsible for his disappearance.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
They pretty much just were interviewing anybody and everybody who associated with Robert, who knew him. And he wasn't a guy that had a lot of drama, you know. Like I said, he was pretty cut and dry as far as like his personal life. Never had any history of running away. A very squared away guy. Nothing, never got in trouble. Was in Boy Scouts, you know, athletic.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
And just had his life together, you know, for an 18-year-old kid.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
I mean, they literally talked to his neighbors, all of his friends, of course family, and not a single person said he had any beef with anybody. I mean, he was just a likable guy who wasn't into drama or anything like that.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
You know, oftentimes we see that with people who go, you know, off the grid and just disappear. There's some kind of indication like they're into being a survivalist. They've done it before, but come back. There's usually an indicator somewhere in their past.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
They don't just fall off the face of the earth without some kind of indication with family or friends or no left behind or, you know, I mean... He had his whole life ahead of him, and everybody that you talked to that knew him said that was just not his nature.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
So John Wayne Gacy, he's a pretty well-known serial killer. I think he has just over 30 confirmed victims that he raped and murdered.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Their specialty was kind of updating pharmacies, you know, old drug stores to make them more modern. There are rumors mentioned in the reports that he was in this area around that time, which I've since been able to confirm that he was actually up here in Reedsburg, which is in our county about 15 minutes northwest of here. He was there remodeling a drugstore and that was in July of 1977.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
I've spoken with the wife of the owner of the store and he at least was up here to bid the job. It's a little bit fuzzy on whether he actually completed the work or if he just came here to bid the work. But he was here in July of 77, which obviously that's two months before Robert's disappearance.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Baraboo is the home to the Ringling Brothers. They started their first circus here. There's a huge circus heritage here. The Circus World Museum is here.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
So I don't know if that's related or not. That's just speculation that maybe he was tied to Baraboo
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
I'm working with a Cook County sheriff's investigator who has a lot of knowledge on the Gacy cases. And it sounds like he was in a lot of his interviews very vague about, you know, maybe I did more, maybe I didn't. That's for you guys to figure out type attitude. So currently working on that end of things as well. Whether Gacy's connected or not, still working on that.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
I'm not proficient enough in the DNA world to know, like, how close of a match does it have to be? Or if it's a degraded DNA sample from remains, like, how much of the profile does there have to be to match a family member's profile? You know, that's all real science-y stuff that those professionals, DNA analysts, they know those questions, of course.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
I don't want to say she was a biker gang member, but she would hang with these guys and they were upset. I think their motive for murdering her was they thought she was being an informant for law enforcement, which wasn't true. That's why she was killed.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
I really dug into this one. We do look into cold cases from time to time to get a new set of eyes on it. Last thing anybody did, I think, with this case was 2013 when they put in Amy and her dad's DNA. So I figured it'd be good to look it over again. And that's when I really started with everything.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Obviously, with going on 50 years almost, 48 years, it'll be in September. Memories fade, people die, so that's been hard. The other challenges now would be different, how we would probably process items of evidence, but 77, it just wasn't a thing. Reporting techniques were different back then.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
There's some things I'm finding out now that we would have definitely documented and reported now that... I can't find reports on. Everything is done paper. There's an electronic record, so it's paging through paper reports. And I don't know if they just have gone missing or they were never done. I don't know, you know.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
My hope is that somebody out there now is in that boat where they have a change of heart or a change of circumstance that they can give us information, you know, because time's only going to drag on and more people are going to be gone and more memories are going to be faded. And with his brother and sister still alive to get them some answers.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
So that's when we're called. We weren't involved at all until the car was found. And then the patrol deputy showed up, and then a detective came. You know, obviously, given the circumstances, it quickly morphed into, you know, something weird is going on.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Nowadays, we would have definitely kept stuff for DNA, but they didn't know what DNA was. So a heavy, intensive search starts. They had people on foot searching. They had bloodhounds. They actually arranged to have a helicopter from the Army National Guard when they did an aerial search. The Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources was also involved.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
What that could mean is that he traveled away from where the car was found and could have potentially got picked up. Or he could have got on the road and walked a certain way. You know, it's hard to tell. I know there's mention in the reports of, I think, one of the nights around that time it rained. So that can throw this off, obviously.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
The bed linens were unkept. Food was eaten out of the refrigerator. Somebody had emptied a cigarette ashtray out in her sink. I mean, it's apparent to me that whoever was at the house was there for a period of time, like they had been almost staying there for a little while.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
She pulls in the driveway. The friend does. It's a long driveway up a hill. And there's a car sitting in the driveway facing up the driveway towards the house. And it's running with the lights on. So obviously, given the circumstances of what she was going there for, she was pretty freaked out. But she approached the car. There was a male in the driver's seat.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
And he said, I'm looking for my friend, Bob. I'm looking for my friend. I'm looking for my friend, Bob. And she said, well, nobody by that name lives here. This is private property. She said he was very polite, very apologetic and said, I'm sorry. And then he put in reverse back down the driveway, got to the road and then continued east away from where the car was eventually found.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
There's just so many avenues you can go, you know. It was not in his nature to not stick to the plan or at a minimum not let somebody know, like, let Randy know he wasn't going to be showing up at the house. He would have... stopped at a payphone to let Randy know, like, hey, I'm going to go check out a spot maybe to hunt tomorrow. I'll be late. That's what he would have done.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
He wouldn't have no-showed or stood him up, especially if he knew that his mom was making dinner for them and that would have been disrespectful and he was not about that.
The Deck
Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)
The quarry was kind of a popular place for locals to go and like target shoot and just, you know, whatever, hang out. So the following Thursday, somebody's in their target shooting and they notice there's these tires discarded in the quarry that weren't there the last time he was there, which was just a few days before. Also with the tires are the hubcaps from an AMC car.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
The confidential source said he was interested, so he went to reach for it. And the seller said, don't touch it because it's hot and there's a body on it. And that means obviously it was used on homicide. It was used out in East Hartford to shoot Dede.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
And that guy was in St. Francis Hospital because he was shot. I walked into the hospital. I said, I'm here to investigate, you know, you're trying to sell the firearm.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
So I do it, comes back with four numbers. Holy smokes, that's awesome because most of the geofence warrants come back with nothing. I'm like, all right, positive results, four numbers. So I start tracking down the numbers and one by one, everyone had a legitimate reason to be there.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
And that would mean a home run. Unfortunately, that did not happen, and we're just stuck with the name. And as you can see, I have plenty of names, and it's difficult with just a name to approach someone and say, you know, I want to talk to you.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
People are afraid of, you know, the person that did the crime coming back and, you know, getting the snitch or, you know, rat. That type of code, if you will. And it's not just this case, but a lot of cases, you know, people don't want to snitch on anyone for fear of retaliation or retribution.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
He's a good football player. His face would light up when we talked about football.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
And as we were coming into town, it was broadcasted that a gold car was seen leaving the area. And a patrolman had stopped that gold car at a local gas station. So myself, Frank, my partner at the time, we go to that secondary scene, if you will. And a patrol was interviewing the driver of that gold car.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
There was enough personnel there, so we decided let them handle that aspect. We can always go back to that if needed.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Usually we call it to a scene and there's no one there. The whole area was just full of people, either kids getting off their bus or parents waiting to get their kids off the bus. I just remember, you know, the housing project, the parking lot, and just people everywhere.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
I think there was an inkling at that scene with the gold car that he may have not been involved at that time because I believe there was an explanation given that he was on his way to work and his mannerisms didn't really add up to someone being involved in a shooting at that time.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
So most likely he was standing at his mom's car, his car, however you want to call it. And he probably saw it coming, so he went to turn. And as he turned, that's when the round was fired.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
You would think numerous people saw it happen because the amount of people that were outside. So a couple weeks later, we printed out flyers and we literally went door to door.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
It was just names after name after name. People started to come up with all these theories. So you get multiple names, multiple theories, and you just start, it's almost like you just start going in circles.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
One of the sad things is shortly thereafter, the town decided to put out cameras. So that place has cameras now, and the cameras are very good quality, but too little, too late.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
And it took some time for them to admit that Day Day was dealing drugs. That came maybe six months to a year after the investigation, but we knew.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Yeah, I was... Were you in the dookie? Yeah, I was Cub Scout.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
And Mom was E.T., and then she had a big old E.T. costume. And she was so butthurt because she wanted me to hold her hand.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Yeah, for me, she was upset because she wanted me to hold her hand because she couldn't see very good in the mask. She was awesome as far as what I knew of as a kid. My mom was always there for me. We were her priority. She was always happy, always joyful. She always sang.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
She used to scare me because when she drove down the road and the highway, she'd be driving down the highway and she'd be singing and her hands would be going and I was yelling, I'd be like, put your hands on the steering wheel.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
I got there, my dad, Bert was there, Ed was there. There was a close friend of the family that was a pastor in the church, and they took me in a room and basically just said, Mom's not coming back. They didn't say she was married or anything like that. Basically told me she was in heaven. No. I didn't believe them. And I kept arguing with them and just told them she wasn't.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Late getting home from work. The rest of it's kind of a blur.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
That was the only family I knew at that time. I didn't have a relationship with my real father. So for a couple of years, I just thought it was my dad. I just thought he was my dad.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Everything was rainbows and unicorn farts for like the first six to eight months. Started getting a lot of fights, a lot of yelling.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
I started, you know, being physical with her and Even when, like, his friends were over, they'd be hanging out at the party, and my mom would, whatever, and he'd start yelling at her and call her names. Sometimes he would just pick her up from people, like, take her in the bedroom, you know, rough sex with her. A couple times, like I said, he was a big guy, she was small.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
I never really seen him, like, hit him with a fist, but just fucking... Just like I said, she was small. He would, like, thrust and push her and knock her down on the floor and stand over the top of her and yell at her. Sometimes he would pick her up and he would literally throw her from one side of the living room to the other. And there was a couple of times my mom would hide me under the
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Kitchen table. Her had me go outside. I didn't know at the time, but as I became an adult, I know what he was doing a lot. He was, I don't know if it was cocaine or whatever it was. He was snorting shit and there was a lot of pills. And my mom just changed. I don't know if she started doing that stuff with him or not. I've never seen it, but I've seen him. And she just changed.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
She didn't laugh anymore. She didn't sing anymore. So yeah, he might as well have stood dead.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
And I remember the day in court when he lost custody of me. I heard him sobbing in his room in the back of the house, like a kid, you know, like really hard. At that time, I had never seen a grown man respond to my dad. Show of emotions. I screamed in my face, and she kept pointing to him. She goes, you see what you did? You see what you did? That's your fault. You did this to him.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Always knowing that... You're not going to be around forever. You're either going to die or leave me or decide I'm not good enough or I'm broken. Pretty much everyone in my life except for my sister and my close, five close best friends and my wife and daughter are the only people I've ever been able to depend on or trust.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
She was a good mother and a good woman. And just when she got into that time of her life, you know, with the domestic violence, and it just kind of spiraled, you know, for her. But that doesn't define who she was, you know.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Yeah, I'd like to think that it would fix what... Some of the hole, maybe. I mean, I feel like I've come a long way.