Dominic Sandbrook

I think a lot of people get this wrong when they talk about church and empire.

I don't think he thinks of it in terms of oppression and subjugation.

He thinks of it in terms of sort of technicolor adventures, excitement, exoticism, and glory.

And of course he sees the colonial peoples

Often he doesn't give them agency and he sees them merely as supporting characters in a drama in which he and people like him, other public schoolboys, will always have the leading roles.

But I don't think it's an inhuman way of thinking about the world.

I don't understand, personally.

Yeah, but I think some of this is unfair, actually.

So...

There are very few public figures of Churchill's generation about whom we know more.

So almost everything, when Churchill came to your house for dinner, or when you met him, it was a great moment because he's an exciting personality.

And he says very provocative, outspoken, and often outrageous things.

And so people would make a note of them.

And often Churchill would be showing off.

He would be trying to shock.

So he would say things to sort of dinner parties of Edwardian liberals or something about Indians.

And I think he would be doing it often deliberately to needle the more bien pensant members of the company.

Well, I mean, we all know columnists who specialize in this.

I'm not averse to doing it myself, quite frankly.

And I think...