Don Wildman

At this point, they're part of that larger migration until they get to Fort Laramie in Wyoming territory, right?

Or Montana, I guess it is.

A fateful decision, as we will soon find out.

Tell me about James Clyman, who they meet at Fort Laramie.

We did a show for History Hit actually at Fort Laramie, which is way out there even today.

It's so far out there.

And then you can only imagine what a psychology – kind of personally, that's how I'm hoping the audience experiences this episode today, not only because of your book, but also –

That sense of the pioneer mindset, which had to have been a bizarre experience.

I mean, you're among your own with this huge wagon trail, but endless skies, really hard travel, even before we get to where they're going to get.

And this sense of like, when is this going to end has to be setting in in a big way.

So the motivation to find a shortcut is very understandable.

Oh, that's great to hear.

So there's real deception going on here.

He tries to make better for himself in the end, but in the beginning, this is really a scheme, isn't it?

Yeah.

I mean, the irony is, of course, in two years or three years, I guess, the whole story is going to change and everybody will be charging to California because of the gold rush.

But at this point, that doesn't exist.

So they have to find these ways of drawing people away from the Northwest, which is a more popular alternative.

They understand that the shortcut that we're talking about takes them across what's called the Great Salt Lake Basin, right?

The Great Basin, which is an enormously desert region.