Dr. Alan O'Sullivan

And he frames this in the terms of a positive sum versus a zero sum game.

Globalization was seen as this positive thing where other countries would compete with each other, as I said, trade with each other.

But natural competition would be good, good for the consumer, good for perhaps global equality, et cetera, et cetera.

But as I've said in previous interviews with the likes of Louis Vincent Gave and a lot of other people,

China's ascension to WTO in 2001 laid the groundwork for the likes of Trump, laid the groundwork for politicians like Nigel Farage, Marie Le Pen.

I could go on and on and on.

Victor Orban, who lost his seat, lost his position in power last week.

So...

But this leads to this politics of resentment or othering, economics infected by domestic.

So what if we look at the U.S.?

And this can be mirrored across the world, really.

If you look at the United States, hollowing out of the middle class in the U.S., the export of all those manufacturing jobs, this has led to a crisis in domestic politics in the U.S., the emergence of Trump.

That has fed into economics, which has then fed into geopolitics.

And we can see this.

What do you mean?

You can see, look at the post-World War II institutions such as the World Bank, the IMF.

Look at the UN.

Look how weak that looks today.

And we see these other institutions, the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, I think it is, National Development Bank.

And these are...