Dr. Alok 'Dr. K' Kanodia
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So the relative value of time when we estimate it so lowly makes it way easier for us to engage in dopaminergic activity, because if my time isn't worth.
We know that there are problems with things like emotional regulation.
worth very much, it's okay to waste hours and hours and hours.
So this too, if you find yourself wasting a lot of time, chances are that if you've got ADHD, your ability to estimate time is off and then you are valuing your time at such a low level that it becomes affordable to waste it.
And this creates a vicious cycle where we end up wasting a lot of time.
We don't get a lot of work done.
And therefore, how much is our time worth?
Not very much.
OK, so now we're going to dig a little bit deeper.
What is it that actually makes it so that our brain cannot accurately estimate the amount of time it takes?
So it's hard to regulate my emotions.
So there is a problem in something called retrospective time perception.
OK, now this is fascinating to understand.
So when a human being.
Starts a task.
We have a estimation of how long it's going to take to finish the task, right?
I sort of get angry easily or I get frustrated very easily.
So I think like, okay, I have to do homework.
It's going to take me an hour.
Now, once I do the homework, let's say I reach this point.
There is a separate function of our brain that looks back and says, okay, how long did this time take?
I mean, how long did this task take, right?
So there is a retrospective, i.e.
looking back, perception of time.
So if I were to ask you, how long did it take you to finish your homework?
How long did it take you to write your dissertation?
How long did it take you to go to the grocery store?
A neurotypical brain is pretty good at calculating, looking back in time and calculating how much time something actually took.
So we're aware of some of these deficits in ADHD.
This is the biggest deficit in ADHD.
This is the root of all of these time blindness problems.
So we don't track time.
And that's going to be part of our solution.
We don't track how long things actually take, right?
I just go about my day doing the things that I need to do.
And then I trust that my brain is accurately measuring the amount of time that it takes to complete tasks.
If it accurately measures the amount of time it takes to complete tasks then I have estimates of how long it takes to complete tasks.
But time blindness is one of these deficits that we don't sort of think about quite as much.
Once I have estimates for how long it takes to complete tasks I can plan and execute tasks.
But if my clock is shut off, if I don't have the ability to measure, right, and that's where the suprachiasmatic nucleus internal biological clock comes from, if that is actually disabled, then my capacity to look back in time and say, okay, this homework took one hour for me to finish, that is impaired.
So now we begin to see that this is kind of like how this looks.
Okay, so I'm going to draw this out because I know I just said it, but I imagine it's confusing.
So why is it that our brains have difficulty estimating the amount of time?
So it turns out that there's a very specific deficit that is called a retrospective time perception deficit.
even though it has profound impacts on our life.
So what does this mean?
This means that when I'm over here and I am planning to complete a task,
I look forward and I say, this task will take one hour.
Then what happens if I'm neurotypical is I go over here, I complete the task.
So I end up completing the task.
The task is done.
Then what happens is my brain has this really interesting capacity where it's able to look back and say, oh my God, that didn't take an hour.
That only took 30 minutes.
I had to work on my resume.
Turns out, and I'm sure you've experienced this before, turns out that it took way less time than I thought.
So I've seen time blindness lead to things like divorce.
Or the opposite can happen, where I thought it would only take one hour, and it ends up taking 1.5 hours, right?
Both are options.
The key thing is that we have a time estimation capability, and we have a retrospective, i.e.
looking in the past, time perception capability as well.
So our brain has this part that looks into the past and says, okay, how long did this end up taking?
Now, if this is impaired, let's think about what the effect is.
So these are spouses who are chronically late to things, who can't be counted on to follow through and stick with plans.
So if I cannot do this...
then how am I supposed to form my estimates, right?
So if I do a task, oh, I think it's going to take one hour, ends up taking 30 minutes.
Now, the next time I have this task to do, my brain is like, oh, we know this takes 30 minutes, right?
So if my retrospective time perception is intact, this will allow me to make a estimate that is accurate.
So if I have an accurate estimate, then this solves all these other problems that we were talking about, about getting started and estimating that things take too long and undervaluing our time and all that kind of stuff, right?
So if we can't look into the past and accurately measure how much time it took, it becomes very hard to make estimates for the future.
If we can't make estimates for the future, we can't plan things.
Now, the question is, why does this deficit exist?
Where is the root of this retrospective time perception problem?
Why is it that my brain can't look back and say, this is how long it took?
Well, remember, what is our core problem?
Our internal clock is impaired.
The internal biological clock in the suprachiasmatic nucleus cannot measure time.
I've also seen graduate students that I've worked with who will get sort of threatened or even kicked out of programs because they can't meet deadlines.
You don't have a stopwatch.
So if you don't have a stopwatch in your body, how are you supposed to know how long something took to do?
It's impossible, right?
If you don't measure the time, right?
And this is what sounds kind of so crazy because normal humans just do this all the time.
You just know how long something took.
I'm going to bake some bread.
It's like, how long did that take?
Took about an hour, right?
We just know that.
But if that is impaired, that means that we can't accurately measure how long things take.
If we can't accurately measure how long things take, we can't estimate how long things will take.
If we can't estimate how long things will take, it becomes impossible to be on time.
So all these things that people think of is like, oh, I have ADHD, therefore I'm lazy.
Like I'm chronically late.
I have difficulty planning things.
I have difficulty getting started.
I have difficulty with motivation.
All of these things kind of fall back to this core problem of time blindness, okay?
And this is where it's like when people sort of figure this out and when they correct this kind of thing, which we'll talk about in just a second,
it changes so much downstream stuff.
I hope that makes sense.
So one of the things that I've learned as a doctor is that like treating the root of the problem is way better than treating the symptom of the problem.
Now, how do we know what's the symptom and what's the root?
The symptom is what you see, right?
So I'll give you all a simple example of this.
So asthma is a medical problem of hyperreactivity of the smooth muscle of our lungs, okay?
So let's take something simple like procrastination.
So like asthma is a lung problem, right?
That's what we sort of think of.
But the truth of the matter is that asthma isn't a problem in the lungs.
Asthma is a hypersensitivity of our immune system.
So when we give people medications like steroids—
Steroids happen all over the body, right?
Steroids just suppress the activity of our immune system.
So we all know that people with ADHD procrastinate.
When we suppress the activity of our immune system, things like an acute asthma exacerbation will completely go away.
That's like first-line treatment for really severe asthma.
But it's not specifically lung-specific.
Lung is just where the problem manifests, but the root of the problem is in these little white blood cells, and we get histamine release.
And we get interleukin-1 release and interleukin-6 release and all this kind of stuff.
We get all these tiny little cells that are all over our body that are a little bit too hyperactive.
It's a part of the disease, right?
And when they start activating, when they start panicking, we get all these problems in our lungs.
But the lungs is not where the problem starts.
It's just the symptom of the problem.
Now, the problem is that when it comes to ADHD, we are just now developing this sophistication of understanding of neuroscience, right?
It's a part of this executive function deficit where we have difficulty planning and executing tasks.
For a long time, we've been treating ADHD symptomologically, right?
Because we don't know what's going on in the brain.
We haven't done all these fMRI studies and PET scans and EEGs and all this kind of stuff.
We don't know exactly what these deficits are.
So we're taking a kid who has trouble sitting still and we're saying, hey, kid, take a stimulant because that'll help your ass sit still and stop getting in trouble at school.
We're treating these symptoms instead of treating the root cause.
Maybe you're right.
Maybe time blindness has something to do with it.
How do we fix it?
So this is the cool thing.
When I work with people with ADHD, there are some circuits of the brain that are intact.
And in a neurotypical person, we have like, you know, circuit number one and circuit number two.
And we're going to like balance them, right?
So both of them work pretty well.
So I use 50% of this one and 50% of this one.
So if I were to ask you, if you've got ADHD, how long would it take you to do your homework?
Now in ADHD, what happens is I have one circuit that is deficient in some way.
So instead, what I need to do is, and I have another circuit that's intact.
So I need to utilize this circuit to overcome this deficit.
And I'll give you all a prime example of this, okay?
So people with ADHD are distractible.
They get distracted super easy, right?
So I'm trying to focus on this video, but there's a light blinking over there.
So it's hard for me to concentrate.
It's hard for me to focus if I get distracted over here.
So what does this mean?
This means I have a sensory hypersensitivity.
So people with ADHD, people with neurodiversity, they also struggle a lot with things like too many textures in the food.
There's this new diagnosis called ARFID, which is avoidant restrictive food intake disorder.
So people with ADHD are very, very sensorily stimulated, right?
you'd say something like, I have no way of knowing because it could take 30 minutes or it could take three days because that's our experience with ADHD.
Senses matter a lot.
So what we're going to use is use our senses to correct our
for our time blindness.
See, we learn through our senses, especially if we have ADHD.
They're very sensory learners.
So, you know, if I've got a kid like my daughter,
who probably has ADHD, you know, when I'm trying to teach her about something, I'll give her something to play with.
So if I'm like teaching her about gardening, I'm not gonna sit down and have an abstract conversation.
We're gonna go out into the garden and I'm gonna give her things to touch.
So for example, if I'm trying to teach her how to sit still, the way I'm gonna teach her to sit still is not by telling her to sit still, it's by tickling her.
And then I tell her, okay, I'm gonna tickle you, don't move.
If I sit there and I tell her, hey, sit still, don't move for five minutes, she won't be able to do it.
She'll start wiggling.
But if I tell her, hey, I'm going to tickle you, do your best not to move.
If you move a little bit, I'm going to tickle you more.
If you don't move at all, I'll stop.
You are harnessing this hypersensitive circuit.
It's a potent circuit.
It's not hypersensitive.
It is potent.
That's the way that I want you to think about it.
This means that especially with time perception, we need to use our senses.
So what I strongly recommend for people who do this is to, first of all, literally measure and track and write down how much time it takes you to do everything.
Our brain has no way to calculate how much time a task will take.
You cannot track it in your head.
Now, this is important to understand.
This is why you have to write it and record it.
See, when I think, here's my brain.
And when I think, that happens over here.
These are the cortices.
Here is my hippocampus.
So when I think, that happens over here.
And my hippocampus is over here.
These two are pretty far apart.
Thinking and learning and memory don't connect very clearly.
I know this sounds kind of weird, but I know it sounds crazy.
Just think about it for a second, right?
think through my problems, and suddenly my behavior changes.
I don't necessarily learn from my mistakes by thinking through them.
If anything, the hippocampus feeds our cortices, right?
So the things that I've learned will show up in my thoughts, but the things that I think won't always become part of my memory.
Now, we make a fundamental mistake here, which is that we think that the reason we can't calculate it is because it's so inconsistent, but that's technically not true.
This is why if you have a great idea or
For a video game or a novel or a hilarious joke, if you don't write it down, you will forget it.
Not all of your thoughts are put down into memory.
In fact, your brain sort of uses thinking as a way of getting rid of stuff, like thinking is a way of processing stuff.
But what is in your memory will show up in your thoughts.
What is in your thoughts doesn't always get put into your memory.
Now, what does that have to do with ADHD?
Over here, we have the thalamus.
Now the thalamus is our sensory gateway to the brain.
So our eyes go into the thalamus, our ears go into the thalamus, our olfactory senses go into the thalamus, all of these things go into the thalamus.
And then the thalamus connects very, very, very tightly to the hippocampus.
So the first time that you're seeing a volcano, are you remembering it?
Do you have to try hard to remember it?
Of course not.
The first time that you taste something, you know, that's absolutely delicious.
Do you have to try hard to remember it?
Absolutely not.
So our brain is literally anatomically wired so that our sensory portions and our memory are very closely linked together.
Very, very tightly connected.
There's actually an impairment in our brain's ability to estimate time.
So if we want to learn and we have ADHD, we don't want to use our thoughts.
We want to use our senses.
So this is why the first thing that I recommend people do is get a clock.
And we're going to do a couple of things with a clock.
The first thing that we're going to do is measure ourselves.
So anytime you do a task, okay, you want to literally like measure how long it takes and then put it into like an Excel spreadsheet or put it into a notebook or a thing like that, something like that.
Now, you all may have some technical questions of, OK, like how like when do I start the measurement?
So what I would say is if you want to try to do homework, right, like literally grab all the stuff and you can procrastinate.
Don't worry about procrastination.
Sit down and start the clock and then do a real world assessment of when is the homework done.
So over the course of four hours, I get very little done.
Or in the middle, you sit down and actually start doing some work.
And so you set a second timer.
Now, if your brain cannot calculate
You set a second timer for 15 minutes.
How much time did I how much did I get done?
So it'll be a little bit dynamic when I work with people.
There isn't like a one size fits all solution.
One thing that I find is that like using a calendar for big blocks of time and an actual timer when you sit down is very, very helpful for like small blocks of time.
estimate time properly right so that's what if i ask you how long will it take you to do your homework you'll be like i have no way of knowing that is not a problem of procrastination or deficit of attention or things like that that is literally if i ask a neurotypical person how long will it take you to do a task x their brain is processing a bunch of information that allows them to produce an estimate oh you need this paper written i can get it done in a week
So as we take measurements, what we're going to do is we're going to be feeding our senses.
And this is the beautiful thing.
When you feed your senses, your brain is going to learn on its own.
So the problem here is that your brain doesn't have access to this internal clock from your suprachiasmatic nucleus.
And so the suprachiasmatic nucleus is connecting to your frontal lobes.
Let's say here's our hypothalamus somewhere over here.
Here's our frontal lobes.
These guys are trying to plan a day.
This is our clock.
Now, this guy normally talks to the frontal lobes, and it gives it information.
It's not about right or wrong.
It automatically is giving information.
The more information you feed to your frontal lobes...
the easier it is to plan.
Does that make sense?
Like the more data the frontal lobes have, the easier it is to make plans.
So if I make, you know, if I make five measurements and then over time I spend a year practicing homework and then five years doing homework and then 10 years doing homework, then I'll figure out how long it takes for me to do homework.
Does that make sense?
The more information we give our frontal lobes, the better they perform.
Now, here's the problem in ADHD.
We don't have this.
So the frontal lobes are trying to plan without any info.
So what we want to do is we want to take this bad boy, the thalamus,
And we're going to use this to feed the frontal lobes.
Doesn't matter.
It can be like low quality information.
The more info you give it, the frontal lobes will do their job.
So check out the link in the description below and back to the video.
They will start to.
Make estimates.
They will correct their estimates.
So it'll make an estimate.
You sit down tomorrow.
You try to do it.
Turns out that it's off.
You underestimated by 50%.
The next day, you overestimate by 50%.
The next day, you underestimate by 25%.
The next day, you overestimate by 25%.
So as long as you continue feeding the thalamus...
right, again and again and again, your estimates will improve over time.
And this is what neurotypical people do on their own because the suprachiasmatic nucleus is doing it for them.
They don't need this external scaffolding, okay?
Now, the second thing that we need to talk about, so remember we said that a healthy relationship with time involves some amount of internal clock and some amount of external clock.
So if I'm neurotypical, you know, my brain can keep track of some things and I need to use an alarm some.
If you've got ADHD, your internal clock is going to be impaired, but your sensory sensitivity is going to be higher.
And so we're going to have to rely on external time signals, external trackers of time to help us out.
So this is where calendars, reminders, you know, I use alarms all the time.
Like even when I'm like procrastinating, I'll use an alarm.
So I have a 20 minute timer set on my phone.
That's my procrastination timer.
So I'll set it like if I'm if I want to play like, you know, a video game for 20 more minutes, like I'm saying playing Elden Ring.
So literally what I'll do is like I'll set a 20 minute timer and I'll be like, OK, I should start working now, but I'm going to set a 20 minute timer and then 20 minutes rolls around.
I'm like, OK, like that's enough.
Like I really think about it when you're like procrastinating.
You don't want to start work.
But when you really look back, it has been my experience.
When you look back at the 20 minutes that you wasted, you're like.
Was this really worth it to waste this time?
And the answer is always no.
The problem is that you don't have that step because you don't have that external anchor that's pulling you in and like actually helping you realize what the hell you're doing.
So we want to create an external scaffold of reminders, timers, calendars, etc.
So those are the two things that we're going to focus on.
And now I'm going to turn things over to Dr. Thorderson because she's going to give you all some awesome tips that she's taught a bunch of people who have time blindness, ADHD.
And this is what really works for like larger populations in terms of skills building.
Whereas if our brain lacks the capacity to estimate time, then how on earth are we supposed to plan, right?
So if I have no idea whether this piece of homework will take 30 minutes or three days, how am I supposed to make a plan for the week?
How am I supposed to make a plan for a semester?
How am I supposed to plan for a vacation if I have no idea how long things will take?
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Hope to see you there.
So I want you to think for a second about how difficult your life would be.
And this may be easier than it seems.
if it was impossible for you to estimate the amount of time that actions would take.
Go to your neurotypical friends and ask them, like, okay, how are you supposed to plan a party if you have no way of estimating how much time a task will actually take to complete?
So this is a really prime example of a deficit in ADHD, which is the estimation of time, which then cascades out into the symptoms that we frequently see with ADHD.
I'm Dr. Alok Kanodja, but you can call me Dr. K. I'm a psychiatrist, gamer, and co-founder of Healthy Gamer.
So we'll see a lot of like symptomatic problems like procrastination.
We'll see problems with planning like we've already talked about.
But those are all rooted in these fundamental time blindness issues.
So here's the really cool thing.
So a lot of the times when I work with people with ADHD, they will work with they will try a lot of things before they come to me.
Because we're like, this is the Internet generation.
They're watching TikTok to get ADHD tips.
The problem is that most of these tips around ADHD are sort of symptom focused.
They're not looking at the root causes of ADHD.
They're trying to fix the emergent symptom.
So my problem is procrastination.
Or if you're in a relationship, your problem is chronic.
You're always late all the time.
You're always late.
You're always late.
You don't respect my time.
It's really hard to be in a relationship with you, right?
We'll get these kinds of really frustrating things.
And so if you're someone who's got ADHD and you're like someone is telling you this, you're like, I'll try harder.
I'll try harder.
I'll try harder.
But literally, if your brain is not able to estimate the amount of time that it takes to do things, how on earth can you be on time?
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If you are just colorblind to that, that's why we call it time blindness.
It's going to be incredibly hard.
for you to ever be on time to anything.
The challenge is that our bosses, our spouses and other neurotypical people do not understand this deficit and our society is not built to correct for this deficit.
So in today's video, what we're gonna do is we're gonna give you something of a power adapter, right?
So this is kind of what I've realized when I work with people with ADHD.
It's not that they're busted.
It's that all of the sockets are like U.S.
sockets that have this three-pin plug, and everyone with ADHD has an EU socket.
So they have a socket that they'll try to jam into the wall, but it doesn't fit.
And all we need to do is figure out the right adapter, right?
So if I can create this international travel adapter, then you can plug your socket in, and you can plug into the rest of society in a functional way.
So that's going to be our goal today, okay?
Now, the first thing that we have to do before we get into how to solve this problem of time blindness is we have to understand how time is perceived in our brain and what the deficits actually are.
And once we understand the root of the deficit, we can solve the root of the deficit over here and the symptoms will naturally improve on their own.
The moment that your brain is able to estimate time better, your capacity to be on time, your chronic lateness, your procrastination, your ability to plan...
So let's dive right in.
All of those things will naturally improve with very little effort because now your brain is able to actually use those time estimates.
OK, so we're going to have to get a little bit technical here and we're going to have to understand, first of all, how our brain actually perceives and processes time.
And we're going to have to understand how it utilizes time to sort of get things done.
Now, I know that sounds kind of like abstract, but once I sort of start to break it down and we look at the brain regions, I think it'll actually get easier, not harder.
And my hope is that once y'all sort of understand like these components of time, which no one ever talks about, by the way, because neurotypical people's brains just do this automatically.
My hope is that it will empower you to solve a lot of your problems.
OK, so the first thing we're going to do is talk about the suprachiasmatic.
nucleus so this is the first kind of problem we have this is our internal clock so we as human beings have an internal biological clock right so you can wake up in the morning and you get a sense of what time it is so there are a lot of things like you know when you're sitting there and you've been on the computer for a while you've got you get a sense of how long how much time has passed so our internal clock is actually impaired
It's noon on a Monday and you're sitting there and you're thinking to yourself, man, I have homework.
So this part of our brain that basically is an internal clock and tells us how much time has passed is impaired.
Now this creates this, this in and of itself explains so many of the problems with ADHD.
Oh my God, I was hyper focusing for four hours.
I had no idea.
Oh, I completely forgot that I was supposed to go pick someone up from the airport.
Now let's think about this.
to pick up someone from the airport.
It's because they literally have this part of their brain that's like a stopwatch that's keeping track of time.
And your brain is like, yeah, it can be you at 1 p.m.
And once a certain amount of time passes, they know, okay, I have to pick up my friend at noon.
Once two hours pass, I need to alert the consciousness that it is time to go.
So if we want to have a healthy relationship with time, there is basically a balance of two things.
We have an internal clock with external time reminders.
So our internal clock is not always perfect.
on Monday, one hour from now, you could be done with that task.
This is why we need to do things like set alarm clocks.
So what we need for a healthy relationship with time is an internal clock.
And for the things that an internal clock can't handle, we need external time reminders.
So we sort of know this, right?
So if you've got ADHD, you've kind of figured this stuff out.
You realize that, okay, I need to set alarms.
I need to use things like calendars.
I need to get notifications to keep me on track.
So we can sort of balance deficiencies in our internal clock with using external time reminders.
And even in the case of neurotypical people, like they use things like alarm clocks and calendar reminders and notifications and things like that, right?
And then you're like, damn, this is the last piece of homework I have for the next three days.
So a healthy relationship with time involves these two things.
Now, here's the key thing with ADHD and time blindness.
There are a lot of things like, let's say, procrastination or planning, or I don't know if being on time kind of makes sense here.
There are a lot of problems that we have with ADHD that we do not perceive as time benefits.
We perceive them as laziness problems, willpower problems, emotional problems, when really they're deficits of time blindness, okay?
So this is the first thing.
We have an internal clock.
It comes from the suprachiasmatic nucleus, and we'll get into more detail.
So at the end of the video today, we're actually going to tap in a member of our scientific advisory board, Dr. Michaela Thorderson, who specializes in skilling up people with neurodiversity.
I could have I could relax for the next three days if I just sit down and do one hour of work right now.
So she specializes in skills building, uses a lot of worksheets and things like that.
So I'm all about like theory and neuroscience and spirituality and stuff.
She's excellent at this stuff.
We're going to be tapping her in at the end of the video because this is where she really specializes in helping people level up some of these skills that are necessary.
She's also going to be holding a social skills workshop for neurodiversity if y'all are interested in that.
So stay tuned at the end of the video.
There'll be some info about that, okay?
Second problem that we have with ADHD is our estimation...
So what does this mean?
So this is basically our brain trying to figure out how long a task will take.
A neurotypical person will be able to make a calculated guess how long a task will take.
But if you have ADHD, the brain's capacity to estimate that time will be deficient in some way.
Now, we kind of already talked about this, but this is where we need to go into more detail because we will see how an inability to estimate time creates a lot of problems.
But if your brain is like, oh,
So remember that when we can't estimate something properly, we could do an overestimate or an underestimate.
And depending on which one we do, this creates a lot of the problems that chances are you struggle with.
So if we overestimate the amount of time it takes.
This is going to take three days.
So what that means is let's say that doing my homework actually takes an hour.
But I tend to overestimate the time.
Oh my God, it'll take me three days.
If a task takes an hour and your brain thinks, oh, it's going to take three days.
How does that affect your capacity to work today, right?
This piece of homework has suddenly become a dissertation.
So if something can't be finished in the next hour, it's noon on a Monday, and you're sitting there and you're thinking to yourself, man, I have homework.
And your brain is like, yeah.
It can be you at 1 p.m.
on Monday, one hour from now, you could be done with that task.
And then you're like, damn, I could be done with this task Monday at 1 p.m.
And then I can have the rest of the day.
This is the last piece of homework I have for the next three days.
I could relax for the next three days if I just sit down and do one hour of work right now.
But if your brain is like, no.
This is going to take three days.
This piece of homework has suddenly become a dissertation.
So today we're going to talk about time blindness in ADHD.
So now it's hard to get started, right?
So our brain doesn't just get started on tasks that take a large amount of time.
I don't wake up one day and be like, I'm just going to get my PhD today.
You can't do that.
So the larger amount of time something takes to
the more preparation our brain needs, the more guarantees it needs, right?
So if I have to do a three-day task, I need to make sure that all the other stuff that I need to do over the next three days, I need to study for this test, I need to write this paper, I need to prepare for a birthday party, all these other things need to be taken care of because this thing takes three days to do.
But remember that my brain can't estimate any of those tasks either.
As a psychiatrist, this is the thing that causes the most damage to my patients' lives that they are unaware of as a problem with ADHD.
So what ends up happening is that when our brain overestimates,
The amount of time something takes, it becomes incredibly hard for us to get started.
The second problem that we have with this is that it also drastically alters our value calculation.
So when I sort of think about, okay, what is the value of finishing this homework?
Well, the value of finishing the homework is like, you know, it's like one piece of homework that's done.
Now, what is the cost of finishing that homework?
It's about an hour's worth of effort, right?
So that's like a pretty good trade.
Small gain, small cost.
But if the homework getting done is like a small, let's say it's 5% of my grade, but it takes three whole days to do, then my brain is like, this is not an efficient use of our time, right?
This is not worth it to do such a small thing for it to take so long.
It feels incredibly inefficient.
And when our brain feels like something is inefficient, it decreases our motivation to actually complete the task.
So we see that delays in getting started and decreased motivation both are rooted in an improper estimate of time.
And if we can fix that time estimate, our motivation will increase, our efficiency will increase, and it'll be easier to get things started very naturally.
So kind of related to this, when I work with people with ADHD, their ability to estimate how much they can get done
We've got things like Dr. K's Guide to Mental Health, personalized coaching programs, and things like free community events and other sorts of tools to help you no matter where you are on your mental health journey.
in a window of time is too low.
So if I ask my patients with ADHD, if I ask a neurotypical person, you know, how much can you get done in an hour?
So what do I mean by that?
They'll say, I can get a lot done in an hour.
If I ask my patients with ADHD, how much can you get done in an hour?
They'll say, I can't get much done in an hour.
So in ADHD, like we're all aware that there are attentional problems, right?
So I want you all to think about that for a second, okay?
So if my brain estimates
that very little can be accomplished in one hour.
I know I'm asking you all to be pretty abstract here.
So if my brain estimates that the value of an hour is incredibly low, okay?
Like, I can't get much done.
So now I want you all to think about this.
If the value of an hour is low, what is the cost...
of wasting an hour, right?
If I can get very little done in an hour, if my estimation of the value of an hour is actually artificially low, it makes it way easier to waste time because my brain is actually telling me like, oh, you can play one more game.
I have difficulty concentrating.
It's like, like, and just think about this with ADHD, right?
I'm making this so abstract.
Just like, think about it.
You're, you're sitting there like literally, and you're like ready to do your homework.
And you're like, oh my God, this is going to take me five hours to do like two questions.
I get distracted easily.
So if it takes you five hours to do two questions, you know, playing one game for an hour is only worth like it's not even worth half a question.
Yeah, so that's weird.
Like, it sounds like people will, like,
I hate to use this word, but regularly send you walls of text that are in all caps, use profanity, think you're kind of like rising above your station sort of thing.
Like, who do you think you are?
And, and what do you help me understand how you came to that conclusion?
Is that something you'd like to dig into today?
Let's get through a couple other things because I think it's so interesting.
We had an interview last week, two weeks ago.
I don't know.
Time is such a blur for me.
I think sometimes we go through life attracting a certain kind of person.
And oftentimes we don't realize what signals that we're sending that will attract that kind of behavior, right?
So it's really interesting how you frame like you're a really strong support and how that may attract a certain kind of person.
And then when you exhibit like non-support behavior, like you, I don't know, do you play video games?
Do you play any video games that involve farm allocation, like MOBAs?
So there's like resources on the map.
And when you take something that isn't yours or isn't yours, because sometimes supports need resources.
Like sometimes like we need, we need to get our items too, so that we can help the team win.
And then sometimes the other players on the team will get really upset.
Um, and so I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense.
And it does sound like you're really like, I don't know if this makes sense, but when, when you get, you know, mammoth text messages, we're using a lot of profanity.
Oftentimes what that, there's two options.
One is that you're insufferable, which is technically an option, but I think what is much more likely, I mean, we like, cause sometimes that happens.
I think what is much more likely is that you're tapping into a lot of dormant emotional energy, right?
You, you did what working?
So this person has been carrying around something and then it kind of like explodes out onto you and the response is disproportionate to the situation, right?
So, so, and I, I'm just not hearing, you know, I mean, maybe, I don't know.
I don't know.
It just sounds really weird.
So yeah, let's, let's kind of go through like some of your other, like just the progression and then we'll see what sort of feels like good to talk about or explore.
Does that sound good?
Oh, oh, so you just work and you live stream on Twitch.
On this podcast, we explore mental health and life in the digital age, breaking down big ideas to help you better understand yourself and the world around you.
Yeah, so what was the startup like?
And what, like, where can we find you?
So I know you mentioned the platforms, but, like, what are your...
You know, if we want to find, yeah, your ads.
So I know this sounds kind of weird, but how did you come to that conclusion?
That their Game of Thrones power play is happening.
And Xi is S-H-I-H, right?
So what do you want to talk about today?
Anything in particular come to mind?
So what, what tried to change teams?
How do you, how do you approach that?
So can I ask you about your history?
What do you mean she was on the floor?
It's like, she's calling you a coward from laying down.
So you were looking at the floor and then she said, look, I was looking on the floor.
Okay, so can you tell us a little bit about where you grew up and what that was like?
What does that mean?
Did that help?
And what does that mean?
They were going to use you as their culture problems?
So they were going to blame you for all the problems with the company and why people were leaving.
Can I ask, before we move on, you said your identity was in your career.
Can you tell me a little bit about that?
Can I ask more about that?
I'm a bit confused.
So, like, when did you first develop the dream of whatever?
Like, how did this dream come to be?
So let's dive right in.
And making it in tech looked like what?
How would you know that you made it?
Okay, so what was, do you want to talk a little bit about Meta and Facebook and what your experience was there?
Or do you want to jump to TikTok?
What does that mean, real sweaty process?
What makes a hard interview?
OK, so you wound up as a product manager at TikTok.
And what was that like?
What does that mean?
You question authority so much?
Okay, so you have moved around quite a bit.
So you said like Google, Caffeine, Facebook, Meta, TikTok, and Discord.
Let's get started.
Um, would you kind of say that, like, would you describe yourself as an idealist?
Like, I'm not sure what word I'm looking for here, but I'm, I'm just sort of noticing like the, like, cause I, like you said, there's, there's like a trend, right?
There's a pattern of like, there are a couple of themes that I'm sort of picking up on.
One is like junior versus senior, right?
Like, like, like power dynamics, whether we're talking about clubs, whether we're talking about,
entry-level job at Google, there also seems to be a theme of like, you are a valuable resource, but overstep.
um yeah and and then there's also like something about you that seems to evoke and so this is where i don't know how much of this is like common right so i've heard all kinds of mixed things about big tech in san francisco so i've heard that things are incredibly toxic i've heard things are
like can be toxic.
Like I've heard there's like pockets of good stuff.
And so what I'm trying to understand is, you know, if we're, if I'm thinking about your journey, how much of this is like, cause you kind of do present in a very, um, you present in a very, um,
And it sounds like you were pre-med and what else?
So there's a certain and so I'm and I think you've like pointed out there are certain things that will seem to catch people off guard.
So you'll present in a bubbly way, but then you'll be like, hold on a second.
What are we doing with this product feature?
Which, by the way, I'm notorious for doing internally over here.
It's like, hold on.
What are we doing?
And it's interesting because the perception when I do that even here is that it's kind of annoying for people because it's like we've been working on this for a while and like I bring up conversation like during a review.
And so one of the most common pieces of feedback that I get is like,
Why are you bringing this up at the review?
Why are you not bringing it up like during the process and things like, and that's just what happens here internally.
But it's feedback that I think I understand.
I'm like, I understand kind of what you're saying.
Cause I think I do that a lot too.
And I also get different kinds of pushback.
or it rubs people the wrong way or is somewhat inefficient or is sort of like, like you're showing up at the 11th hour, like this is the product review.
And, and I don't know if it's, it's similar, but so I'm just trying to get a sense of like, because I'm definitely detecting that there's a pattern.
right and and so what's your understanding of of or i mean we can talk a little bit about the move to discord if you want to but like that's what seems to be to be the most interesting about your story like that's the theme that i'm sort of picking up on the most um yeah i mean i i think that is a a theme that i still grapple with today like i'm
What kind of engineering?
So, welcome to another Healthy Gamer GG stream.
So, so first question is, is like, what was, what was the, what was like growing up?
Second time we're crying in the phone booth?
What does that mean, crying in the phone booth?
Like, cause like the, you, you seem to be like the Asian super child.
Okay, so it's not like a phone booth on the side of the road.
Okay, I got you.
I know what you're talking about.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I didn't know that.
I was like, wait, why is this girl in San Francisco and doesn't have a cell phone?
she's having these random encounters with people in phone booths.
Like I'm so confused.
So it's, yeah, it's like the little mini meeting room.
It's basically like a cubicle with four walls and a door.
And it has like, maybe like three chairs or something.
Like you're like pre-med engineering.
I was actually really dumb.
Can you tell me about other weird advances or is that like off limits?
My name is Dr. Alok Kanodja.
Is he like a gray beard or is he like a younger dude?
Disheveled engineer.
Just a reminder that although I'm a psychiatrist, nothing we discuss on stream today is intended to be taken as medical advice.
How did your manager take that?
I mean, I think it's like, you know, these stories are actually not that uncommon.
It's interesting.
I mean, I know you.
And also, as a formerly socially inept gamer who literally developed a lot of social skills by becoming a psychiatrist and formally studying the system of human interaction, sometimes that's what it takes.
I mean, many of us are oblivious.
It's so funny because...
know a lot of like so sometimes i'll we've done work with meta and google and youtube and stuff and it's it's a lot of fun to to go there and put on workshops or whatever um and it's interesting because like a lot of the these people unfortunately i mean hopefully not these people but there are a lot of people in our broader hg community who like work at places like this right or in tech we have a bunch of like software devs like in our audience and stuff like that and a lot of them struggle socially
And, and I think that there's, I've absolutely seen, and we've seen kind of this track of like, I'm going to use a certain kind of making it in tech, right?
Like we all want to make it in tech.
I'm going to use that as a substitute for social skills, flirtation.
Here's how I'm going to flirt with you.
I am, I have a job at Instagram.
Oh, isn't that, doesn't that get you all hot and bothered enough?
Dude, huge thank you for doing that.
Because I think one of the challenges is that, like, you know, for people like us, it's hard because we don't know how to learn.
Like, we don't know, like, where do you go to practice learning?
approaching strangers and flirting with people like where do you like we don't know how to like you know so it's challenging and not to say that it's okay that they're doing that to you but there's also like that like how do we actually get that person normalized and teach them what's appropriate and not appropriate and and things like that so thank you so much for sharing that story yeah
What's your understanding of why you don't have much social anxiety?
And I think it's a super cool thing to be interested in yourself.
Pretty Chad move right there.
What does that mean?
You're not mature enough.
I'm confused.
So, um, do you want to finish our professional track or you want to talk a little bit about what you're doing now or like what life is like for you?
Like what, what would, what do you want to talk about the pattern, the themes?
What do you, what do you want to focus on?
How did you know that layoffs were coming?
Hey chat, welcome to the Healthy Gamer GG podcast.
Everything is for educational or entertainment purposes only.
And so how did you, so it sounded like you braced for impact, but it sounds like you started making content before.
When did you start making content?
Okay, so you started making content, and then you already got some flack at TikTok or at Discord or both for, like, the content that you made.
Yeah, I think that makes sense.
I think from, you know, as someone who's been in a position of reviewing other people's work, one of the key things that I've learned is that if you're going to do something unorthodox,
what your day-to-day responsibilities are have to be impeachable.
So from the perspective of your manager, let's say that you have a job and you're like, that job falls short in some way or is anything short of perfect, and I see that you posted an hour ago when you're supposed to be at work.
The problem is not that you're posting at work, but the problem is from the perspective of the people on the other end,
I don't know if that's a post that you just made or like, you know, so it's a question mark for me.
I also, it's may not even be appropriate for me to ask you, you know, like, so that's, it's not, it's as your manager, it is not my, it may actually be out of bounds to ask about,
the things that you do outside of work yeah right so i i think that that kind of stuff like that we see that i mean we also deal with that too like it kind of internally and stuff but like um you know i've just noticed this growing trend that if you if you want to do something that is like not culturally the norm yeah what people will do is if you fall short of your day job they will associate those two things
What was the layoff?
So you said you braced for the layoff.
You kind of knew it was coming.
And what was that like?
How did you manage that?
If y'all have a medical concern or question, please go see a licensed professional.
the attention i don't know what it was to be honest yeah so you know chloe it's interesting because i mean like like i'm trying to understand this because i think you seem to be have a strong gravitational force of hatred right so like yeah you mean i attract it yeah
So so like like like so if we're talking and now like so so now this is where and you use this word project like they project a lot onto you.
So so and I think it's like what what.
So if you're assuming that, what are the other options?
What else could it be?
Yes, that's one of the other options.
So like like at this point, what I'm noticing is that there's a theme in your life throughout multiple organizations, multiple colleges, multiple companies where people project a lot onto you.
Like they tend to judge you very harshly.
They don't take the work that you do seriously.
And and so like, you know, and I think it makes sense.
I mean, the way that you've explained all of this stuff, like I don't think that how can I say this?
You know, a random tech bro following you on a subway at 10 p.m.
and then like flexing.
And then hitting you up and asking you inappropriate things.
Like, I don't think like, that's like tech bro, socially inept kind of behavior.
And the stuff that you're describing doesn't sound appropriate.
Like it's your fault at all.
So like the way that you describe people sending you all caps, text messages, like, you know, yelling profanity at you and like all this kind of stuff.
Like, I, I, I don't think that that's your fault.
But if we look at it like, you know, I don't think that's appropriate.
I don't think that unless you're actually cussing them out and you're like leaving that out or something like that or you're talking shit about them or whatever.
So I do think that, you know, if someone is cussing you out over text message all caps, the only way that that is arguably appropriate is if you started it, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I don't think that's what – I don't get deception from you.
But I'm really curious because I hear this story, right?
But it sounds like you've been smeared with shit over and over and over again.
You've been on the receiving end of toxicity over and over and over again.
And to be completely honest with you, like sometimes when I work with people like that,
you know, there is a common variable there.
It doesn't mean that they're like bad in some way.
It means that they maybe are, so I've noticed Bubbly is like a good example, right?
Like there's certain, even the pitch of your voice can be quite high.
So they're like, and I think you have some decent like ideas about projecting something and then like somehow the way that you respond maybe like evokes, but it's clear to me that across multiple situations and multiple people, you seem to attract people
Some bad apples.
What's your understanding of, like, what's going on there?
Hello, everyone.
This is awesome.
Can I ask you some more questions about this stuff?
Hey, y'all, just a reminder that in addition to these awesome videos, we have a ton of tools and resources to help you grow and overcome the challenges that you face.
We've got things like Dr. K's Guide to Mental Health, personalized coaching programs, and things like free community events and other sorts of tools to help you no matter where you are on your mental health journey.
So check out the link in the description below and back to the video.
So first thing is, like, I love this concept of, like, this archetype because that also tracks with a lot of, like, my experience.
I think that your experience is far from unique.
So I think that there are people who are oftentimes women, oftentimes, I don't know what the word is, but, like, the Venn diagram of cute and you overlap, right?
What was that like?
So what I mean is, like, I don't mean that as in, like, oh, I work at Instagram.
You're the Venn diagram.
I mean, like, literally, like, if we were to describe the features, if I were to list features of cute, so you mentioned, like, you know, you're small.
Like, you have a very bright smile, the pitch of your voice, the way that you talk, the way that you even emote and respond.
So when I say something, your expression of enthusiasm is not, like, locked in.
How did you do that?
It's, like, it's effulgent.
Like in a good way.
Like I think it's very like warm and bubbly I think is a really good word.
So there's absolutely – and I've seen that kind of pattern in psychiatry.
We observe all kinds of things.
And so I mean we even notice that like when we're working with like my female colleagues, the way that they get treated by nurses depends on their buoyancy.
The way that they get treated by like the other female staff depends a lot on the buoyancy, like the way that that and hospitals are kind of different places where like, I mean, maybe I'm wrong for saying this, but there's a ton of like.
the worst toxicity that I've seen as a dude in the hospital is like, like nurses against doctors or doctors against nurses.
There's a whole like dynamic there.
Um, but, and so maybe it's, you know, I don't, I experienced it.
I see and experience a different kind of toxicity being a dude in a hospital compared to a woman, but.
So I'm really curious about like, you know, that archetype, you know, what is this shared experience of, of women like you?
I imagine they're also like dudes who like fall into this in some way too.
And, and so like, what's your understanding of like, what, what is the arc?
Like, what is it?
You use the word archetype.
So can you tell me more about that?
Couple of quick announcements.
Yeah, so I love the phrase underappreciated overachiever.
I think it's very, I think it encapsulates it well.
I also think it's very, what's the word?
So it seems super like there's a technical term in psychiatry called egocentronic or egodistonic.
So egocentronic means something that is aligned or fits with your ego.
And egodistonic is something that does not fit with your ego.
So a really good example of this is like OCD versus OCPD, so obsessive compulsive disorder, obsessive compulsive personality disorder.
So when someone has OCPD, they're like super OCD, but they like it and they think it's right.
So they're like, I'm super OCD about this, but this is the way it should be and all y'all are wrong and I'm right.
And OCD is usually ego dystonic, where, like, people know that I know I shouldn't be washing my hands eight times to prevent germs.
Like, I don't want to do this.
I just can't help it.
So the underappreciated overachiever sounds like a fantastic book title.
You know, so I think a lot of people will see that and it'll resonate with their egos.
Like they'll be like, yeah, like I work really hard.
I do a really good job and people don't appreciate me enough.
So today we have an awesome interview with Chloe Shi.
You know, like I think it's a really powerful way to encapsulate what someone experiences.
And so you mentioned like loyalty, right?
So I'm hearing that you also have a theme of working a lot, right?
Like we're talking seven days a week.
You have like a second job after Facebook or Meta or whatever.
Like TikTok, you're starting at 7 a.m.
You work through a regular U.S.
workday and then it's meetings with China and then it's like the devs come online and you have to answer things like that.
So I'm seeing a strong history of just a lot of hours being dumped into whatever job you have.
What do you think are the other features?
Like what else have you noticed?
So what do you think it is that reduces your visibility?
Yeah, that's so hard because then even if you bring it up, what do you come across as, you know?
What's the IC?
So another thing that I would add to the archetype based on my experience and also your story is that I think you all frequently get blamed for extra.
So I think that underappreciated overachievers do a lot of extra stuff.
Like, so this whole story about...
like this whatever happy hour thing that and and the one thing that you get shit you know people if you do extra and that falls short because it's not a part of your job people still associate that with you and then they'll blame you for that so that's a pattern like
Pinned meaning what?
I mean, I think I understood you a bit.
And then you'll also be known for that because you're the person who's doing it, right?
So you won't be known for other things.
And I think we're going to be talking about career stuff and like maybe bouncing back, maybe burnout.
What does that mean?
So I was kind of thinking about the overappreciated underachiever, right?
So they're, they're way better at talking and not listening.
So if we could like, they're very visible, they're not very loyal.
Help me understand that.
What have you learned?
What does building trust mean?
Yeah, I think it's it's cool how it's so interesting because I mean, I would agree like 100 percent that the kind of I think this is such a huge mistake that people make.
So this concept of underappreciated or overappreciated.
if I had to distill it down to one thing, it is communicating in a language that people are receptive to.
So I've never thought about it like building trust, but recognizing that in order to build trust, different people need a different type of information.
So are we focused on metrics and KPIs?
Are we focused on, like you said, a simple two to three sentences?
Like what are the higher-ups going to respond to?
Or is it going to be more of like a narrative kind of like, you know, like so...
And depending on what you default to, it may not match with what people are looking for, which in turn means that even though you're doing a lot of work, it's not viewed that way.
And on the flip side, if you're like very, very numbers focused and someone else is like two to three,
sentence focused, you give your 15 minute presentation on numbers and then they get to talking and then like the CEO is like, does anyone else have anything to add?
And then someone steps up and offers their two or three sentences.
Suddenly that's the language that the CEO understands.
That's what they sort of respond to.
And it's such a great insight.
Like I hear that over and over and over again.
And especially like the career oriented coaching that we do, like this kind of stuff comes up a lot where people aren't taught
this stuff right they're like oh i have this product this is this is just the way that i think this is the way that i'm presenting it and that doesn't necessarily land properly or well enough um so that's so so fascinating um this is like you it's like kind of your job as a person inside on the product team to know to understand to like get the intel on how each stakeholder
So we've been at this for almost two hours.
Anything that you want to talk more about?
Any questions you have for me?
Any kind of thoughts that we haven't gotten to yet?
I mean, I know that's what we were supposed to talk about.
I just got so interested in kind of your narrative and your story.
Like, and I think there's a lot of nuggets in there that are like really useful.
I think it just felt really human to me about, you know, just a journey of what it's like.
So, so when, when you did get laid off, like how, how did you deal with that?
So, so you did a couple of years of, it sounds like, like you started the process of sink or swim in like first grade.
How do these career conversations go?
What does that mean when you say I lost my identity a lot and you talked about crying and then you said I wasn't going to lose my identity again and you didn't cry?
Help me understand that.
I'm a bit confused.
And then like, so it sounds like college was challenging.
So, so that, that's what I'm kind of like, cause I, I think that, you know, like you're kind of saying you're in a very different situation for most people who get laid off.
Like, oh, yeah, later part.
So like for people who are not content creators.
you know, how do you think they should deal with this?
Like, like if you, if you didn't have this, you know, what, how would you have managed?
Like, and it's a kind of a silly question to even ask you because it's sort of a hypothetical, right?
I'm never quite sure, but we'll see where it ends up.
I think that was people were faceless and didn't care.
I think it's kind of a, yeah.
And at the same time, it sounds like you've learned a lot about surviving in the corporate world and, and you've worked at a lot of different places, seen a lot of different corporate cultures, been through some very interesting interview processes.
And, and so that sounds really hard.
What was that like for you?
People didn't even tell their fiance for years that they, and they like the stories of, they would just leave the house every day for eight hours, nine hours, 10 hours, just go to a public library and then would come back home.
And then their parents would deposit money into their bank account, like a salary for years.
Yeah, go ahead.
That's really well said.
I think I love the, so I think there's some things that, you know, like we said, your situation is a little bit different, but I think there's some things that
I think are absolutely like translatable, right?
So there's some things that are specific to your situation and some things that aren't, I think telling people it's so interesting.
It's such a simple thing, but it's huge, right?
She's an awesome content creator.
So you open yourself up to receiving help, which I know is hard for a lot of people, but there's even a lot of studies that show that, um,
so the best way to form a bond with someone is not to help them.
So if you help them, they usually feel indebted.
And that creates like a negative emotional valence between the two people.
Cause like the person that you helped, like they feel grateful, but they also like feel bad.
So now it's like, now like one person in the relationship feels bad, which is not actually how you create a friendship.
What actually works way better is receiving help.
So when someone helps you, they feel good.
They're like, I did something good today.
So they actually have a lot of like positive emotion associated with you.
Now, when you chronically ask for help, when you're like someone who never reciprocates and things like that, that's a problem.
But in the opening chess move, like offering help to someone or receiving help from someone is one of the best ways to form a relationship.
I also like this idea of like narrative and sort of like owning your narrative.
I detect a fair amount of cognitive reframing that you've learned how to do over the years.
So like when we have our identity wrapped up in something, the narrative, the reflexive cognition is I got laid off.
That means I am less worthy.
It's not the company's fault.
It's my fault because I'm not as bad.
I mean, I'm not as good as the people who got to stay or whatever.
And so really like sort of owning, and even if there are like shortcomings or weaknesses or things like that, right?
Like I don't, and owning up really where you are and, and admitting to yourself, I don't know what comes next.
Um, and I think those kinds of things I think are, are like basically universally helpful.
Like they, they work on the level of cognition and the brain and stuff like that.
And it doesn't surprise me that you figured that stuff out.
But just to kind of say that just because your circumstances are different doesn't mean that some of the lessons that you've learned are not translatable.
We'll meet her.
And I imagine that part of the reason that you're a successful content creator is because the lessons that you share are presumably helpful for people.
Otherwise, I don't think they'd be watching you.
And I think the really challenging one out of everything that you're saying is it sounds like you're very good at making friendships.
So you kind of mentioned this person back in...
the dance group who is like y'all are still bffs right the lady the the girl who took you out for boba and sushi and y'all are my bridesmaid at my wedding yeah so like like it sounds like you're really good at forming connections and i think one of the biggest challenges what i would even argue is like harder to duplicate in terms of your situation is so many people are struggling to form social connections nowadays
So content creator, like becoming a content creator may not actually be as hard as making a friend in today's world.
Like as crazy as that sounds, right?
Like you can just create an account and start streaming on your platform of choice or upload something.
But to get another human being to respond to your texts when you text them actually seems to be like a pretty big challenge.
So, I mean, it's, it's so interesting because you're, you're talking about difficulties and yet, you know, it's like you like went to Columbia, you did a lot of leadership, you did dance.
But I, I know that there are people like you who like figure out how to socialize.
So there's a lot of people, it's like the world is getting split into two and like people who like know how to form connections, instinctively form connections and like people who are struggling and that divide is increasing.
So it's, you know, so, so I, I think it's, that's the one thing that I imagine people are like, cause it's not just that they lost their job.
I think a lot of people will lose their job and they're kind of alone.
Let us hop into the interview with Chloe.
And so you're like, you're like, you really are like a STEM liberal arts plus two years of hard.
So that's interesting.
I wonder if there's like kind of an answer in there, because it sounds like you have, you know, historically you've struggled with being ostracized, bullied, things like that.
But I wonder if the answer is just that, you know, you've had like you've had a lot of reps.
So you've moved like, you know, recreating.
And one of the things that I notice about people who are very alone is that their circumstances are usually pretty stagnant.
Now that I just sort of connected these two dots where I, I've rarely heard, I'm sure there are people out there cause this is the internet, but generally speaking, people who are very alone or like in the same space for an extended period of time.
I mean, it's, it's kind of weird how like, you know, hardcore Asian that is not to be stereotypical, but.
I have not heard of people who are moving companies every one to two years, moving locations every couple of years, different set of roommates.
So just the number of like social, the number of times you've formed social connections has been so astronomical and,
And then it also sounds like you are very active in community and nonprofit groups.
So like, I mean, I think that's another huge kind of like difference, right?
So what, what explains why in a world where people are more self-absorbed ghosting more often, how are you able to maintain such healthy social connections?
And it sounds like you've been pretty socially active even, well, I don't know if socially active, but like you've been out there, right?
Like with nonprofits, community groups, different jobs, different locations, different roommates.
That's interesting.
Can you give me an example of what I need to do to get on your shit list?
Like what are we talking about?
What are we talking about here?
I'm Dr. Alok Kanodja, but you can call me Dr. K. I'm a psychiatrist, gamer, and co-founder of Healthy Gamer.
So is that, I mean, I imagine, so I was thinking about to use the word pressure to describe that, but I wonder if it was like also like normal.
Let me just get set.
Like, so I remember a lot of the pressure that I felt like felt like really normal.
I fucking love that.
I love your impression.
It's so good.
It felt like this is just normal.
I feel such intense disgust right now.
This is just what's supposed to happen.
I didn't realize how unusual it is, or maybe it's not that unusual, but what was your experience of that like?
What was weird about it?
I think like this is the shit people deal with nowadays.
Like the world has changed, you know?
Well, so that's why you call it out.
So, I mean, I, I think like, I can't believe I'm about to say this in their defense.
So, so not that they don't, they think it's normal.
It is normal for them.
So like, that's the world that they live in.
And I know a little bit about this because I too sometimes make the content from time to time.
And sometimes I get invited to places where there are other people who also make the content.
You know, and I think it's like what I've come to understand having worked with a lot of these people is like, honestly, their world is just different.
It's like, you know, there's so much...
Um, like that's just where they have to exist.
Like these people are constantly checking stuff 24 hours a day because that's what, that's what it takes.
You know, like, and, and, and I, I like, I'm, I'm with you.
I'm not saying that it's good.
I think this is just the trend that we're seeing.
I mean, you're talking about this as like content creators.
I don't think this is just content creators.
So I think that people will regularly have birthday parties where I loved how you said looking at people's foreheads, right?
Like it's like, and that's, I mean, I'll go to like dinner somewhere and I'll see like a group of youngsters, you know, the youths and, and the youths will be like, there's just, everyone's on there.
Like literally I was driving by a restaurant yesterday and I saw four dudes like sitting at a table and like literally all four of them were like looking at their phones and
And, and, you know, so I, I think I'm, I'm with you.
And also it's like, that's just what things are becoming.
Um, so I, I don't know.
It, it just, you know, it, but I, I loved hearing.
the authenticity of it, like the, the emotional energy of these stories I'm loving, like out of everything that we've talked about.
And I know it's like, oh yeah, people are fucking dealing with uncertainty with layoffs or whatever.
And, and yeah, it's like, like, I know it's hard, but I, I think it's almost like, this is the stuff that I think is kind of the straw that breaks the camel's back.
So it's like dealing with layoffs is one thing.
It's an industry wide thing.
It's a shit show, you know, like I kind of get that.
I don't have, I mean, I've helped a lot of people get back into work and things like that.
We have a career coaching program, which is like super solid.
But I think that what really like what is so hard is that the people are dealing with this shit too.
And it's kind of like, it's like something's got to give here.
Like we can't have every dimension of life be fucking us.
I've got all this stuff.
What pulled you towards all these extracurriculars and dance and stuff?
Famous last words.
Yeah, I appreciate the appreciation.
And I think, you know, it's interesting to hear you sort of
talk about your narrative journey because I, I sort of sniffed that.
So the way that you talked about the early things, right.
We're like very like victim.
Like I was bullied a lot.
These people were projecting, I got these text messages and, and then there's the sort of hero arc, which I think I also sort of detect.
And I think that that also rubs people the wrong way, by the way, I think like something about you.
So the thing that, that I think is,
I think both of them are not 100% authentic, right?
You have to make an effort to move to those cognitive spaces.
Yes, you do.
And so something about both of those feels, I'm not trying to be like critical and let me know if I'm about to step onto your shit list.
Go for it, go for it.
But like I think when we do that, which is a necessary thing.
So it's so interesting because the journey that you're talking is describing is almost like always what I see.
So you start off with a negative conception of yourself and almost to come out of that.
You need a you need to develop a hyper positive conception of self.
I'm the victim.
I'm the hero.
And then the truth of the matter is like you're neither of those things.
The truth of the matter is you're just you.
And I got that energy from you the most when I actually heard this like story about the birthday party and like some of these other stories like where that, you know, you're not you're not being like heroic.
You're just like, this is just me.
Like, this is not right.
Like, right.
It feels like it's not like the conception of like, oh, look at me.
I'm standing up for justice and down with the arrogant creators like, oh, I'm so great.
I actually didn't get that at all.
But there are absolutely people who will talk about that, like those experiences in those ways.
And so I think I think there's something and I would encourage you to like really kind of look at that because there's something about you that people like absolutely react to.
It's part of what makes us successful content creators and it's part of what gets us repeated text messages.
And also, like, I wonder if some of the learnings that you have are—that's what was missing, right?
So you are a creator of things on the internets.
So somewhere along the way, you learned how to code switch appropriately.
You learned how to communicate with people appropriately.
And it's very possible that in your college years, you didn't—you hadn't—you didn't know that stuff, right?
So you're, like, some, like, naive, bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, like, oh, like, we're all here.
Like, we're doing a dance.
Like, we want to win at dance.
Like, that's the North Star.
And there's, like, all kinds of other people that have different kinds of things, but—
I think it's like, it's for anyone who has a repeated pattern of victimization.
I'm not saying that you're like playing the victim.
I mean, like really people have been treating you like shit.
And this is what's so hard when I work with people who have been in like abusive relationship after abusive relationship is helping them understand that this isn't your fault.
And there are some signals that you're transmitting that attract abusers to you.
I am the priority now.
I am the priority.
Look into my eyes.
I am the priority.
So, Chloe, thank you so much for coming today.
If you have last thoughts, you're welcome to share them.
But, you know, we can find you at Chloe.
I don't know what is happening.
The sun is happening.
We're wrapping.
You're good.
It's almost as bad as my audio problems.
Yeah, I really like the way that you juxtapose not compromising who you are with skill acquisition.
So there's learning to play the game.
And then there's also like not compromising because sometimes like if you morph into someone else, like if you change that core identity, then like the skills will come with it.
I need to be more ruthless sometimes.
I need to be less more of a fighter and less of a lover, you know, like, like, and, and that's just, and so it's, it's really interesting how you kind of talk about not compromising who you are and at the same time, still learning how to like code switch when necessary.
So that's super cool.
Thank you so much for coming.
Yeah, take care.
Yeah, I'm going to just I'm going to fucking hang up on you in like six seconds.
I'm going to change my scene and then gone.
I'm so curious kind of what y'all thought, right?
So I got like so many interesting, you know, I can see why people don't like her.
Not to say that she's a bad person by any means, but I think I got a touch.
And it's so interesting because it was like more at the beginning.
But like, I think that there's something about, you know, so like some people are just like magnets for assholery.
And I think that there's some people that evoke within us, like especially places like the Internet.
We see someone and then we're like, oh, my God, this is such a terrible person.
Like we do that so much on the Internet where we're like, just just fuck this person.
You know what I mean?
We just see something and there's some visceral reaction.
I'm not saying that she's like that, but if that's happening to her, I get a touch of that.
And I think that, I mean, there's a lot of like all really awesome stuff, right?
Now I feel like an idiot because I just finished this interview with a person who I think is like decent and trying to make the world a better place and who has great stories and, you know, has an amazing journey to share and helps people out.
And my first thought is I can see why people don't like her.
So please, I apologize for jumping straight there, but that was my first reaction.
Is like there's something weird about this story.
And I see this a lot.
Like, so I know it sounds weird, but even when I sit with patients.
So there's this concept of like transference and counter transference.
OK, so transference is.
I'm going to be a little bit.
particular about my definitions of these things.
So transference is when you're sitting with your therapist in therapy, you sometimes have certain feelings that come up that are directed towards the therapist.
So you feel like your therapist is AFK.
You feel like they're letting you down.
You feel like you're not getting anywhere.
Like you feel sometimes you will get erotic transference is incredibly common.
Like 30 to 40% of patients will experience erotic transference was just to have transference.
romantic or sexual feelings towards your therapist.
And then countertransference is the therapist's reaction to the transference.
So oftentimes in common definitions, what we'll say is countertransference is the way that the therapist feels about the patient and the patient and the transference is the way that the patient feels about the therapist.
Technically, the definition is different.
It's the response to the transference.
So I sort of felt some of that where, like, I can see that there's something about her constellation of things which evokes some of my projections.
And I think her description of underappreciated overachievers, really, if she wants to write a book, that should be the title right there.
And it'll do great.
And I think that there are certain qualities, like there are types of us, right?
That we routinely evoke certain reactions from other people.
Just because we're evoking a reaction doesn't mean that we're bad.
There's something consistently happening there.
And I think that's what she ran across.
The reason that I tried to bring it up is because I think if you're someone who routinely gets the short end of the stick...
You really... It's... It's... Can be helpful and can be good to think about yourself as a victim.
But she sort of says, like, I used to view myself that way.
Now I view myself as the hero.
As you all know, if you watch our content, we think both of those... That's a journey.
I'm the victim.
I'm a loser.
I'm an alpha.
I'm a sigma.
That's, like, that's the journey.
But there is something where like if you are going to multiple colleges, interacting with multiple people, multiple jobs, and you routinely get shat upon, to say that you have no influence in this is one of the most dangerous mistakes you can make.
Because the moment that you say there's nothing I can do about this, this is not my fault, right?
is the moment that if you have some power you can exercise, you give up your power in that moment.
And this is where I think we have a big problem in the English language.
Because if we say this is your fault, the connotations of the word fault imply like a moral deficit or a choice or something like that.
So this is where the way I would describe it is there is a karma that you are sowing.
There are some behaviors that you're engaging in, some actions that you're taking that are getting a unusual response.
You are tapping into something that evokes something in someone else.
And whether that is right, wrong, fair, or just, don't ask me.
That is not my place.
If you guys want to say it's unjust, unfair, whatever, you can do that.
I'm not a judge.
I'm not divine.
I don't know what is just or unjust.
I mean, on some level, I'm sure I do, but...
What we focus on here is understanding, right?
You should understand what's happening, not what's fair or unfair, because I don't know what to do about fair or unfair.
That's so interesting.
The problem with fair or unfair is it requires power outside of me to fix, unless I can fix it.
Can we, can I ask you some questions about that?
And so if we look at the size of your solution space, it's in your actions, the way that you talk, the way that you walk, the way that you speak up, the way that you don't speak up.
And the challenge here is that you can say, okay, I'm being kind and supportive, and I am being punished for it.
I am an underappreciated overachiever, and I am being punished for it.
Things are not fair.
And what do we have on the other side of the equation?
In order to have underappreciated overachievers, we have to balance that with overappreciated underachievers.
Cause I noticed you use the word super phrase, super toxic or toxic several times.
And we all know who they are, right?
Maybe we're guilty of being one.
And so they are also doing asshole moves, but they are getting rewarded for it, right?
And so if we want to be slick and successful in life, we have to acknowledge this, that there's, you know, you can be good or you can be successful, not both.
I don't, I mean, that's a bit of a caricature, but.
You know, like as like we know that people who are assholes sometimes rise and get promoted or whatever.
Like she's saying, like some guy shows up, has been working there for six months, talks sports with their superior and gets promoted while she's been slaving away for two years and doesn't do anything.
This is exactly my point is like there is a system that people are playing by that no one teaches us the rules towards.
And so what we try to do here is to try to understand that process.
And I'm a little bit of like a boomer.
And I think that like especially the way that she's sort of navigated her identity of being victim hero.
And then I don't think she was trying to be a hero when she's calling people out on their behavior privately.
I don't think she's like, oh, my God, like I need to be a hero.
Therefore, I'm going to do good.
No, it just feels so aligned and authentic.
She's like, this is BS.
The world should not be this way.
I'm going to do something about it.
And this is where, like, so what we sort of found, you know, it's kind of funny.
Like I got kids, you know, I was talking to someone, I got married like 15 years ago.
I was like, you know, when she was telling that story about the guy on the... Oh, so a couple of other random thoughts, okay?
Dr. K's random thoughts.
Number one, she's like, yeah, I love to get to know people.
I'm so curious about them.
I like to ask them all kinds of questions.
So, this is something that is way easier to do as a... What I am imagining is...
I'm not trying to be offensive here, but she comes across as a bubbly, small woman with a high-pitched voice.
And when someone like that comes and asks you a lot of questions about your personal life, that tends to be received in a better way than if you are a lumbering, oafish, hairy, dark-haired, dark-skinned woman
And, and so like, I, I hear this word being used a lot.
Big boned man.
So when a man comes up to you and is like, tell me more about your life.
Tell me more.
Tell me more.
Tell me more.
So on the one hand, she suffers in promotions.
On the other hand, maybe she has like if we're talking about like oblivion buffs and minuses to speech craft, there are going to be certain checks that she does well in in certain checks that she does poorly in.
And then we're on like there are advantages that we have and disadvantages that we have to.
I'm not saying that everything is even or fair, by the way, so I'm not trying to draw some false equivalency.
It's just as I was listening to her experiences of being a woman, I was thinking to myself, wow, I've never had to deal with that, or wow, I could never get away with that.
And at the top of the list is pinning someone down for two hours at a social event and having a deep conversation and expressing a lot of curiosity that may feel invasive if you're a dude.
But then I've also never had someone be like, oh, sitting next to me on the subway and be like, oh, my God, I like where do you work?
But can you tell me, like, so when you were... I think you said not... Was it... Before dance, there was something else that you described as super toxic.
Where do you live?
Maybe he was just trying to have an authentic conversation, was really curious about her.
Wait, hold on a second.
Is that actually what happened?
Is that what do we get frame him as the creep when he's actually doing the same shit she's doing?
I don't think so.
But like that's different because then he's like he's asking.
No, no, it's not the same because then he's like messaging her on work and wants to take her to lunch and things like that.
So that no, that's creepy.
That's creepy.
And she's doing it at a party where at a party, someone has the option to leave.
So that's not the same.
Y'all understand?
For a second, it seems like it's the same, but it's not.
So exit opportunities are huge.
Other human beings aren't around.
It's like apples and oranges.
So the last thing that I just want to say is like, so this is what, like, so here's the thing.
When I was hearing that story, I was like, oh man, this is some version of me and some version of some people in our community.
We're like not great at this stuff.
And then also like, what's really cool is that we have a lot of people in our community, about 30% of our community is, is women.
And people like Chloe.
And so like the cool thing is like we developed this career coaching program.
And the reason is exactly like we built it for everything we talked about today.
So here's the general observation that I made.
So Chloe is someone who spent 10 years in tech learning all of these lessons.
And learning them the hard way.
And what we sort of figured out is like there's a lot of lessons about how to communicate.
How you feel.
Am I going to work all weekend to remove the bottleneck on Monday morning?
We have literally heard, I don't know if you all remember, we had an interview with a developer who's always burning out, and we literally heard the other side of the story.
And so the problem with life is that there's a lot of stuff that we need to know, but no one is going to teach us.
And then you said the first dance person was good, your BFF, and then their replacement was toxic.
And if we are bright-eyed and bushy-tailed like Chloe is and just thinks, stupid me, if I show up at work and try to help everyone succeed and try to build a good product, then people will reward me, right?
But that's not how things work.
So we built this career coaching program.
It's a really interesting experience from our end because when we first launched it,
Very few people signed up.
And so we were like, oh, maybe people in our community are not interested in career coaching.
It has been the one thing that we do at Healthy Gamer that has steadily grown since we launched it about three years ago.
We started the program and got a lot of help from Ethan Evans, if you all know who he is.
He's like a senior VP at Amazon and was responsible for Amazon Prime Video.
Also has a huge LinkedIn following now.
He's been a guest on stream a couple of times.
Super fascinating interviews if y'all want to go back and watch him.
He's a super cool dude.
Super solid dude.
And so he's like, he knows how to grind at Amazon.
So we like tried to join forces and sort of figure out like, okay, what do y'all need to succeed in the corporate world, in the career world and things like that.
And our program is a little bit different because it's the intersection of like common corporate success strategies with like understanding your individual vulnerabilities, your patterns, some of the stuff that we sort of alluded to with Chloe about like, hold on a second, what are you doing to attract people
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
To have this strong gravitational pull towards negativity.
Why do you always get underappreciated and overworked?
Like what's going on there?
So can you tell me what that means and what that looked like?
And our belief for professional success is that you have to understand yourself and understand the environment and how those two things fit together.
The problem is that most people go through careers focusing on the work.
not the environment that they work in, and not themselves.
So we had a video that did really well where we talked about developer burnout.
And it's wild.
Y'all should go watch it if you want.
It's on YouTube.
You can check it out for free.
And so it's so interesting if you literally look at the research on developers, why they burn out.
They burn out because they ignore...
The signals of stress.
They have this strategy that the way to get rid of stress is to complete the task that is causing me the stress.
Makes sense.
This thing is stressing me out.
Let me finish it.
And then it's gone.
And then I will be stress-free.
Is that actually what happens?
Because if you are a developer and you pull an all-nighter and you finish some feature and you remove the bottleneck,
Remove the bottleneck.
What happens?
There is more flow.
And when there is more flow, is there less work?
No, there is more work.
And then the worst thing that I've ever seen is developers who become victims of their own excessive work.
Because now that you're the guy, now this becomes standardized for you.
It becomes the expectation.
raised the bar on yourself.
And then it becomes hard to live up to that bar constantly.
And maybe the devs from our own devs that we work with will weigh in here and be like, Dr. K, you're such a hypocrite.
I don't think so.
I got positive feedback from them when I made the video.
We try really hard to do right by them, but who knows, right?
You have to ask them and they can speak their truth if they want to.
Um, so yeah, I mean, if y'all like, so I think that here's the key thing.
If y'all, so what do we do here?
And this is what I wanted to talk to y'all about.
So I want to talk to y'all about what we do here for a second, because I'm curious.
So here, here's kind of what we do here.
So y'all have problems, right?
The world isn't perfect.
You have certain challenges.
You have certain struggles.
So we do a couple of things here.
So we started out and we're like, all right, I'm just going to teach.
So I started streaming, started doing lectures on the internet.
And then I was like, let's have conversations with people.
So I started having conversations with people.
So we have both of those things, right?
So today we talked with Chloe a little bit about corporate girlies or call it whatever you want, being an underappreciated overachiever.
And then we also have things like lectures where we go through a lot of peer reviewed research on developer burnout.
That's also available on YouTube.
And then what we sort of noticed is that this is insufficient.
Watching this interview.
And watching a lecture.
does not mean that your problems at work are going to necessarily quickly or easily go away.
That there is a individual replay analysis level of work, and this is the value that I saw by being a psychiatrist because I work with patients, they come into my office, there are all these principles, but then we translate those principles
to their individual personality, their individual situation.
And that's where instead of taking two years of random experimentation, there is a homing missile kind of approach, a targeted approach.
That's coaching.
So career coaching is awesome if y'all struggle with problems like with what Chloe is talking about.
Or the flip side of it is if you had some negative projection towards Chloe or she evoked something in you and there are people like that at work that you have difficulty dealing with, it's all fair game.
So coaching is designed to, in a time-limited fashion, help you achieve particular goals.
Because prior to my job at Healthy Gamer and even at Healthy Gamer, we're really outcomes oriented.
So it's like you can say whatever you want about how awesome something is.
Oh, Dr. K, we love your content.
And like, that's like, fine.
I'm glad you enjoy it.
The question is, does it work?
Does it actually move the needle on your life in a noticeable and measurable way?
It's really hard to measure that when it comes to watching things on the internet.
Way easier to measure it when it comes to actually helping human beings.
We take measurements at the beginning, measurements at the end.
We have all kinds of internal data that we collect.
So it's great.
So there's coaching, which y'all should absolutely check out if you've got careers.
We regularly hear that it's like a really good investment.
And then we've got content.
So here's our big challenge now.
There's a lot of people for whom content doesn't work.
And what do I mean by doesn't work?
I mean that you watch the content for a while.
We hear these success stories, wins, pogchamp, whatever, all the time on Discord, subreddits, whatever.
We're like, Dr. K, like, this video really helped me or has changed my life or whatever.
That's why we're here.
Most people get some benefit.
But some benefit isn't good enough.
Like, I could make content for the next 40 years.
I don't know how much, what percentage of mental health improvement will happen.
Like, if I make content for the next 40 years.
Like, I don't know.
I don't know.
On the flip side, we have the coaching program.
High intensity, good outcomes, way more expensive than watching free things on the internet.
Very reasonably priced.
I just sent a friend of mine to a therapist that I recommend paying $3.50 an hour.
So our stuff is high quality and works really well.
Peer support model is excellent.
Has a lot of research to support it.
Good outcomes for health and wellness coaches and all this kind of stuff.
So it's a system that's getting better.
Now here's the question that I've got for y'all.
Coaching works great for some people.
People who usually try it are usually really happy with it.
It improves their lives.
Content works great for some people.
Has a small effect for a very large number of people.
Coaching is a resource-intensive proposition.
So both of them are good on value.
That's usually what we look at.
But value is...
benefit divided by cost so on on the content creation side benefit is low cost is low coaching side benefit is high cost is low i mean cost is high so now the question becomes what's in the middle so for all the people who are like in the philippines or in india or whatever who can't afford coaching or they don't want to try it or they tried it and they got what they could out of it
For all the people for whom content hasn't transformed their lives, what do we do?
This is the next big problem we're trying to solve.
So what's between this?
So this is where, like, if y'all have thoughts, right?
So someone's saying memberships.
That's what we started with.
And so far, that's been great, by the way, y'all.
Like, memberships is really working well.
so I think memberships we see, and, and those of y'all that are like, you know, in memberships, like you guys can feel free to chime in, you know, with, with what, how y'all feel about it.
But like, there's a, there's a great, I want to show y'all something.
It's my favorite.
I wonder if I could find it.
This is like, there are very few memes that I'm proud of.
Like that make me feel like pride.
So like this, like, you know, when, when I say memberships works,
We sort of succeeded.
This is the measure or metric that I'm using.
For those of y'all that don't know, these are two incarnations of Shiva, which is incredibly flattering.
Nowhere near that guy.
But it's like that's what we set out to do.
So on the internet, we have to be a certain way.
And then, so there's, like, stuff goes deeper over there.
So, like, there are a couple things on memberships that are really good that way where I just liked that meme.
It was the one that made me feel, stroked my ego the most.
Doesn't mean that it's accurate or fair or whatever.
But I think memberships is, like, really good because we have these things like quests and, like, we have, like, a lot more hands-on stuff.
For ADHD, should I meditate with my eyes open?
Half-lidded gaze is a good place to start.
Open or close, depending on what works better.
Because I'm honestly all like I'm also concerned about.
So last thing that I'll share with you all is I have huge concerns that in the next couple of years, like things on the planet are going to get harder.
And I think people's disposable income is going to go down.
Their pool, their need for higher quality resources to fix their lives is going to skyrocket.
There's a quickly growing amount of trash information about how to improve your life.
People are going to need more resources.
So things like career coaching are going to become more important than ever because the economy is going to go through all kinds of fluctuations.
The real challenge that we're trying to solve, if I'm completely honest, over the next couple of years, I don't even know if we're going to be around for the next couple of years, is that over the next couple of years, the amount of help that y'all are going to need is going to go up.
And the amount of resources that you have to get help is going to go down.
It's going to be bad.
I'm not blaming anyone or anything like that.
I think there's just a global trend of like uncertainty, fluctuations, disruptions by AI and like all this kind of stuff.
I know everyone jumps to like, oh, like you're blaming this person.
No, I'm not.
I think there's just a lot of stuff that's shifting.
So I'll give you all a classic example of before everyone jumps to a certain conclusion.
So the need to form human connections is at its peak because we have a loneliness epidemic.
The ability to form human connections is at its pit.
And this is just the first thing.
This is just the first thing.
Once you stop forming human connections, birth rates in South Korea and things like that are going to escalate into economic problems.
So the world is going to get harder and we're going to have fewer resources to deal with it.
So we're going to try to figure something out.
Chances are we'll fail catastrophically because there's no such thing as a free lunch.
But we're committed to trying.
And for those of y'all that have given us anything from a gifted sub that is anonymous to a Twitch Prime sub to a super chat on YouTube to signing up for memberships, that helps a lot.
Trying out coaching.
The one thing that we're like pretty...
also like i feel good about is that if we're asking y'all for money for something so i don't know if you'll notice but we stopped doing fundraisers for the most part we may do it again but a few years ago we raised a lot of money over the course of may and then it's like hold on a second one thing that we feel pretty good about is that if we're going to ask y'all for money we're going to usually deliver something that we believe is valuable that's why we don't have a patreon
We have membership.
We waited years to create a membership because we wanted to give you all something of value as opposed to just give us money every month.
I'm not saying that we'll never do that.
We may need y'all to fundraise or something at some point.
Maybe we'll do a Kickstarter or GoFundMe for Dr. K's gotcha game waifu extravaganza or something like that.
Like if I start playing games with Tectone, then I'm going to need, you know, I'm going to need to get the top tier waifus to be able to compete.
But yeah, we're going to work on this.
And if y'all have thoughts or things like that, let us know.
So I think the answers that we have in chat, I know mods are paying attention and things like that.
So I think we've got a lot of good direction here.
So thank y'all very much.
But if y'all have concrete ideas of what you believe this community needs, what would help you make more change in your life, actually improve your life?
if y'all have ideas about what we should build, please let us know.
So she came like awesome stories today and then y'all take care.
We'll see y'all next week.
We've got, um, interviews with Scotty K fitness.
I'm doing a deep dive into resilience and, uh, we're going to do, Oh, tomorrow we're doing voicemails.
I'm reacting to voicemails or answering voicemails.
And then next week we're going to do bad relationship advice.
Or maybe I react to bad relationship advice or I give bad—y'all tell me what you want.
Do you want me to give bad relationship advice or do you want me to react to bad relationship advice?
You guys let me know.
I'm sure that the content team has made one of those things, and I will pull a classic Dr. K and piss everyone off and do something entirely different.
All right, y'all.
Until next time, take care of yourselves and each other.
My kids went to see a movie and, and so we're, you know, I've got a little bit of time for this, but it's, um, it's great to see you again.
Yeah.
I think so.
Sometimes when I work with people, what I sort of notice is in my own life, when we look at a doom pile, um,
we want that to be gone, right?
We look at the doom pile.
It overwhelms us.
We feel ashamed.
We know it's a problem.
We know we should fix it.
We shouldn't have bought five shoes.
We should have just bought one shoe.
I should have gotten a bigger rack, right?
There's all this kind of thing and you want the problem to go away, right?
And if you chip away at it, the problem is still going to be there tomorrow.
And it's going to create all of those problems in your head.
And you just want it to be done, right?
You want it to be gone.
You want it to not be there because it won't affect you.
And interestingly enough, it's so interesting.
I love how you said that start with something that isn't important, right?
Start with something that doesn't emotionally activate you.
Because when you're emotionally activated, restraining your behavior, controlling your behavior is going to be so much harder.
But when you start with something that's like small stakes, then you're just dealing with the distractibility, impulsivity, a little bit of attention control.
There's no emotional component.
And I think this is what I love so much about how you approach things is you bake in a lot of like skills, training, background.
Right.
So you want to start like you don't want to learn how to swim in the ocean.
You want to learn how to swim in a kiddie pool and then work your way up.
But that conflicts so much with our sense of like, I want this to be done.
I want to be good at this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I have I have a fair number of pens.
I have a couple of boxes of pens.
Um, it, uh, I think it is weird and I missed you too.
That's so hard.
So, you know, there's I don't know if you've seen this, but there's an overlap between ADHD and hoarding disorder.
Yeah.
Of course, you've seen that.
And I'm glad you said that.
Yeah, cool.
So it sounds like dealing with doom piles, we want to really start with things that are small.
Right?
So small, start with, it's a filtering deficit.
Right.
So I think you just, it's something interesting, right?
And, you know, I like this idea of like, set a timer, chip away at it.
So that's a big thing that I found works for me too, is the sort of like concept of, okay, like, I'm going to chip away at this.
One thing that I find helps is
Which is the problem?
What what is the status of this problem that I want to inherit tomorrow?
We, we, we're like, Oh, is it weird to do this?
That's kind of like what I tell myself.
Right.
So it's like, OK, like I don't want to inherit this problem, but I'm OK inheriting.
And my wife, this drives her insane, but I will do one or the other.
Either I will empty the dishwasher.
Or I will load the dishwasher and run the dishwasher, but I will never do both.
But like, when did weird become not okay to do?
Yeah.
And so I just think like, okay, like, I don't want to do both.
I never want to do both.
So like, let me do it half-assed.
Let me do it halfway, which is infuriating for her, but works really great for me because I'm not like doing it all the time.
Right.
So, so I, I think it's, it's absolutely unusual given that we've only met a handful of times in our life and, and, but we, you know, we were on zoom and stuff all the time, but I genuinely do really enjoy hanging out with you.
Yeah.
So I remember I don't remember where I saw this, but there was a great statement I saw in a therapy guide or something about the right question to ask is.
What do you need to learn to get started on this problem?
Because everyone's focused on how do I get started?
What do you need to learn to get started?
It changes the focus quite a bit.
And I love that you went into that.
Should we move on?
Okay.
Let me go ahead and let's do this.
On this podcast, we explore mental health and life in the digital age, breaking down big ideas to help you better understand yourself and the world around you.
And I think you're a lot of fun and I love how emotive your faces and I missed you too.
like we kind of know where you're going.
We don't need you to keep talking about it.
Right.
I kind of like, so, so for me, it's, it's a lot of it is like, yeah, next.
See, that's what I mean.
Yeah.
Like let's advance the conversation.
We don't need to spend 90 seconds talking about something that you can explain in 15.
And I am excited about what you're talking about.
Let's just, let's just fast forward past the commercials.
Yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
Like let's add free.
Let's go.
Absolutely.
And so I think it's just, I mean, people, I sometimes feel like people just move like they're lagging in real life when I'm sitting to talk to them.
I live in a world where people's faces are not emotive.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I mean, you know, I had to train myself out of that in the whole psychiatrist thing.
Yes.
And what I discovered was something insane.
That the first three words of their sentence don't actually dictate their point.
That they have a lot more to say.
And that what I was doing, you know, they had a bunch of weird context or preamble or whatever, like prologue.
And then there's like act one, act two, act three.
Yeah.
And then there's the epilogue.
And I've discovered I know this may sound crazy, but actually a lot of what they say, like the latter half, like that stuff is really important.
There's actually oftentimes that's the main thing that they're trying to say.
And they just waste a lot of time at the beginning.
That's really what I think is going on.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's that's that's hilarious.
So and if people are running into this, I saw that there was like the jumping ahead.
People, you know, we we we understand this.
Yeah.
We experience this.
What what is going on?
How is this?
So it gets me in trouble, too.
Is this related to ADHD?
But I found that oftentimes the kind of trouble it gets me into is actually pretty good.
Like it will create conflict, but then we will address issues at hand.
Right.
And yeah, facial expressions are great.
I love them.
Yeah, so I think that has a lot to do with it.
I think sometimes we forget that symptoms of ADHD can happen internally.
So even when we talk about distractibility, we usually think about distractibility as like I am doing this external thing, like I'm trying to read a book and I'm getting distracted by that external thing.
But awesome.
I think we're we're I know you you have a hard out in about 45 minutes.
What I think a lot of the manifestations are is actually in your mind.
So this person is saying this thing, and my distraction is literally a thought.
that your thought, thoughts can be distractions.
Like it's so simple to say, but we don't think of them that way, right?
That the distractibility, the inability to maintain my attention, impulse control, I think filtering deficit, all of those kinds of things, the ability to stick on something that you will produce distractions.
So I think this is another really, really scary thing to really think about.
This is where we understand the basic science and I think we have a hypothesis.
So I remember seeing that, you know,
There's a really famous video of, you know, a kid like watching a movie or something with ADHD and he's like sitting still in the chair and he's like engaged in the movie.
And if his mind is engaged enough, he doesn't he's fine.
So let's get get into it.
But then if he's like listening to a lecture on math, he's like spinning in a circle in a chair.
And so one of the key things that I sort of learned is there's a certain amount of mental stimulation there.
that you need if you have ADHD.
And if the environment doesn't give it to you, then you will give it to yourself.
And this is where I've started to realize that, you know, if someone is like boring in a conversation because they're working with their way up to a point, like your mind is like, this is not doing it for me.
OK, so we're going to look at a couple of things.
So your mind starts spinning around in circles.
You start thinking about something else.
You start with something that you're engaging in.
And then the last piece of emotional regulation that I think you talked about, I think sometimes what we, you know, the emotions that actually get my patients in the most trouble are not the negative emotions.
It's like the positive emotions, you know, curiosity.
Love.
Let me see if I can find the right.
Oh, my God.
Love damages more lives than hate does IMO.
Yeah.
And maybe that's not that's just selection bias for who I end up seeing.
But right.
Exactly.
Falling in love with the wrong person or at the wrong time is a really great way to ruin your entire life.
Here we go.
So do you have any thoughts about if people are jumping ahead in conversations, if they're having difficulty attending to a conversation?
How do you work with those people?
All right.
So we're going to watch some some TikToks and Instagram reels and then we're going to get your thoughts on them.
Yeah, I know you're a therapist who works with neurodivergent people.
When you say don't take notes when you go to coffee with a friend.
you know, and, and, and that's where sometimes, so I know it sounds kind of weird, but I actually sometimes do take notes when I go to coffee with a friend and I find that it is not always, but sometimes it's an indicator of like how much you value what they're saying.
Like I'm, I'm right this shit down, you know?
So, so let me just understand what's going on and, and, and then I'll, I'll start taking notes.
But, um,
Yeah.
So so I I'm totally with you on the fidget to what I found is that when I'm doing psychotherapy with patients with ADHD and we're not when we're doing the more psychodynamic style.
So when we're like talking about your past and talking about your feelings and stuff like that, as opposed to like, let's learn certain skills.
Right.
What I found is that I would take walks with them and that works great.
So you usually like proprioception and I'm sure you're familiar with like sensory swings and stuff like that for children on the spectrum.
Yeah.
Using your body and kids will spin around and they'll start fidgeting and they'll start wiggling and like whatever.
So I think giving them some opportunity to really use their body I think goes a long way with conversations especially.
Yeah.
So when I have patients who are struggling because they're having like relationship problems or whatever and they've got ADHD or if their partner has ADHD and they're coming into the office, one of the best tips that I will give them is like go for a walk when you're talking about something important and you'll be amazed at how much easier it is to pay attention.
Yeah, that was something I don't know if you got this in your training, but like, you know, I remember getting a lot of specific training about how to set up the chairs in my office.
So let's dive right in.
You know, like don't sit across from someone because you sit across from like people that you are trying to sign a peace treaty with.
Right.
There's there's a lot of opposition there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think one thing that helped me a lot in my marriage was when I started having conversations with my wife that were a little bit difficult, I would sit next to her and then also hold hands or something like that.
Because then, like, if you're in a relationship, you'll start, you know, doing things like that.
Yeah.
And it really helped a lot.
Like, I think it completely changes the feel of the conversation.
Whereas, like, we need to talk and, like, let's go and, like, go to dinner and stuff like that.
Yeah.
Does your house look like this?
Yeah, that's great.
So I think the challenge is that, you know, if you're trying to pay attention into a conversation and it's not your romantic partner, then, you know, don't put your head on their shoulder.
But I'm sure.
I'm sure you'll address that in your workshop that's coming up.
So if y'all don't know, there's Dr. McHale is holding a workshop at the end of the month where she's teaching y'all how to adult and stuff.
I know you've got to go soon.
Do we have time to take a look at one more?
Yeah, let's do it.
This one is a little bit longer.
Oh yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
Can I just pause here?
Does this sound like ADHD to you?
Can we try a game?
Okay, let's play a game.
So I want you to think about what you think this person's diagnosis is.
I'm going to do the same.
And then when you have your answer, I want to count to three and then we say it at the same time.
Does that work?
Can we try that?
Not like this person's diagnosis, but if someone has rejection sensitive.
Yeah.
This diagnosis, right?
So this is not, we don't know what, you know, but like, like, cause when I hear this symptom cluster, I do not think ADHD.
What I think of is a particular diagnosis where there's a lot of TikToks about ADHD and
i do have yeah i have a closet full of various backpacks i think what's really funny about that is how um yeah i have so many bags and they're each for a specific thing yes yeah so what's what's going on with what's going on with the doom piles michaela
yes yeah and then they're okay so do you want to play this game or no yeah yeah yeah i'm ready okay you got it okay one yeah two three bpd or i was gonna say porterland personality disorder yeah you see what i did there i jumped ahead right this yeah yeah i love it this sounds like bpd
Yeah.
So, so I think it's, it's great that we, I feel better that you, we came to the same conclusion.
How do you think it is that someone who, so, cause so many people will experience things like this and they'll think, okay, I have ADHD.
These are ADHD symptoms.
How do you think this happens?
How is it that someone describes a lot of BPD symptoms and ends up thinking they have ADHD?
Like, how do we get here?
What is going on with this?
Yeah, so that's so, I completely agree.
I think what the internet has a lot of access to good diagnostic information, but what no one on the internet does is a differential diagnosis.
I have literally never seen a single TikTok where someone discusses the concept of a differential.
Right.
And for people who aren't familiar with this, what we're trained to do is, okay, you check those boxes, right?
There's a good chance you have the flu, but there's also a chance that you have an immunodeficiency.
There's also a chance that you have cancer.
There's also a chance that you have an autoimmune disease like lupus, right?
So I think this is where the internet falls short.
which is like, and I love the way that you described this, kind of my understanding of it is like, okay, rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria is some combination of self-esteem issues because if you're a kid and you don't wait your turn, you do interrupt everybody.
People get mad at you a lot.
Um, so people, I saw the fascinating study that if you look at people between the ages of 60 and 94 and they have ADHD, right?
So we think of ADHD is like, oh, all these kids have ADHD nowadays.
But if you look at people between the ages of 60 and 94, they are 300% more likely to be divorced or never married.
that it makes it really hard to engage in relationships and that your partner, you know, has to deal with a lot.
It's really hard for you.
And so if you're sort of like not getting invited to birthday parties, if you're having difficulty like making friendships or relationships, then you can sort of develop this hypersensitivity to rejection.
And even in your own head,
Where if you have difficulty regulating what thoughts pop up, you can sort of start to spiral very easily.
So I can see the overlap.
You know, I think this person was saying the second thing is like a chronic sense of not knowing who you are, which I get excited about this.
I'm super curious about this.
Now I'm super curious about this.
Now I'm super curious about this.
Right.
Right.
Let's get started.
So I can sort of see how that overlap is there, too.
But I think you pointed out that there's a big mechanistic difference in BPD, usually ADHD, where that really that chronic sense of emptiness and not knowing who I am and adopting identities from outside me, I think feels a lot more like BPD.
And what I find in my neurodivergent patients is when they find other kids who are ADHD, you still have this sense of, OK, these are my people.
I've been taught my whole life that who I am is bad.
So let's try to be somebody else.
Yeah.
That's huge.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally.
Um, so, so, uh, yeah.
So thanks for coming, Michaela.
Welcome to another Healthy Gamer GG stream.
I know you got to run, but this was incredibly helpful.
Any, um, and if any kind of like any, I know we sort of talked about what is going on here, but if someone's going through this, do you have any suggestions for what to do about it or how to approach this like more concretely?
And if you don't, cause we didn't get that far, that's totally fine.
My name is Dr. Alok Kanodji.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for coming today.
I think that's a beautiful takeaway.
And, and I, I love talking to you about this stuff.
Um,
Yeah, it's Saturday.
Okay.
All right.
Take care, Michaela.
Okay.
So, yeah.
And so Michaela's awesome.
She's running a workshop this September 27th about adulting with ADHD.
If you guys are interested in more stuff from her, definitely check that out.
I think she's great at doing stuff like this.
So she's great at talking about things.
But then I think one of the biggest questions that we get so often here at HG is like, okay, what do I do?
What do I do?
What do I do?
Like, sure, you can tell me like I should love myself, but how do I actually do that?
How do I get started?
That's what she sort of specializes in.
That's what she's a real expert in.
And I hope you guys kind of caught a piece of it.
We hope that the stuff that we went over today was helpful.
I can talk a little bit more.
I'm going to actually just check in with y'all.
What do y'all want to do?
So I have a couple of thoughts about unspoken symptoms of ADHD.
We can talk about those some more.
I guess let's do that.
I think there may be a video about RSD dysphoria.
Let me see.
Yeah, okay, here we go.
We do have one.
We made it two years ago.
So, hey, I'm going to go ahead and say this, chat.
We did it before it was cool.
And then we have another one about how to handle rejection.
That's three years old.
But, yeah, we have good stuff about rejection sensitivity.
I want to show you all a couple other posts, and let's talk about these, okay?
So let's talk.
It's on regular YouTube.
Just search for Healthy Gamer GG Rejection Sensitivity, and it'll pop up.
Um, yeah.
So let's talk a little bit about symptoms and traits of ADHD that people don't really appreciate or didn't realize.
So what are some obscure symptoms you experienced that you didn't realize were ADHD until you were diagnosed and learn more about it?
Just a reminder that although I'm a psychiatrist, nothing we discuss on stream today is intended to be taken as medical advice.
Coffee didn't do anything for me because of lack of stimulants in the brain.
People feeling anxious due to coffee, always feeling like I was guilty or as if I'll be in trouble and always feeling that whatever chore activity I'm doing, it's wrong and I should be doing something else.
Never being able to stay in the moment.
What are some ADHD signs you didn't realize were related?
Executive dysfunction.
The fact that I always needed some sort of body double to get chores done.
Emotional dysregulation and random bouts of intense emotions.
And complete inability to engage with a topic that I see no practical use for or have any interest in.
Okay.
If I hear just meditate one more time, I may lose my mind.
Okay.
So let's talk about this.
there are a lot of things that happen in ADHD.
And there's a lot of stuff that we're familiar with.
Like we're familiar primarily with like academics, right?
So if you think about the classic picture of who has ADHD, what you think about is something school related, a kid who doesn't sit still, having an inability to focus on your test, using stimulant medication so you can focus and write a paper.
These are the kinds of things that we think about.
We also now think about ADHD as a professional thing too, right?
So it's not just school.
We'll now think a little bit about, okay, at my job, I have difficulty focusing, so I need stimulant medication or something like that.
And that's sort of how we think about ADHD.
But there's some really scary research about how ADHD will affect every part of our lives, basically.
So like I mentioned earlier, people between the ages of 60 and 94 are 300% more likely to have never been married or gotten divorced.
96% of people who are in relationships with people who have ADHD say that it affects their relationship.
So it basically affects 96% of the relationships you will have.
92% of people say that they have to compensate for their partner's ADHD in some way.
Women with ADHD are way more likely to get divorced than men with ADHD, and ADHD seems to be a central factor in that.
And here's the other really crazy thing.
So if you ask what is the most important thing in a relationship, people will say faithfulness is number one.
Something like connection is number two.
And number three is actually like having a good support in terms of like organizational duties, household duties, things like that.
So like helping out around the house is like the third most important thing to people in relationships.
And these kinds of problems or these kinds of things are really hard to do if you have something like executive dysfunction.
But what I think is the biggest unseen symptom of ADHD is that you can do everything that other people do.
It's just way harder.
So as a psychiatrist, what I've come to appreciate is we talk about what can and can't be done with ADHD.
Everyone's like, oh yeah, I can't clean up my room.
I can't study for a test.
I can't write a paper.
I can't stick with something.
We think about things in terms of cans or cannots.
When I sit with my patients, one of the things that I've started to appreciate that no one ever talks about is that you can, it just costs you a lot more.
So really great example of this is a lot of people with ADHD.
So let's, let's, let's understand why this happens.
What are the mechanisms and what are the neuroscience mechanisms in ADHD and how you can approach these things?
Okay.
So first scenario we're going to talk about, I have, uh, let's not call it an appointment.
Let's call it.
So for a neurotypical person, if you have something scheduled at a certain time, the time prior to that is available for other things.
You can be productive in other ways.
But if you have ADHD, this is incredibly difficult to do.
I have so many patients who will tell me if I have something later in the day, I can't do anything before then.
I'm just waiting for that thing to happen.
And once that thing happens, then maybe I can do something after that.
But oftentimes waiting until 4 p.m.
is actually exhausting.
takes up a lot of energy.
And then they look at their lives and they're like, how on earth does this work?
This feels terrible.
How am I ever supposed to succeed at anything in life if I can only do one thing a day?
And this kind of goes back to these chronic feelings of guilt and that I'll always be in trouble, always feeling like some chore or activity that I'm doing, I'm doing wrong and I should be doing something else.
There's a lot of feelings that come with that.
So let's understand this.
People with ADHD tend to be environmentally oriented.
OK, this is sort of a simplification, but we know that people are very sensitive to their environment.
OK, and there's a great quote, which I'll pull up later if I if I get a chance about how, you know, if someone is prompting you to do something, you can do something.
So when you get excited by something in your environment, it brings out a lot of like good energy.
You get super hyped about it.
The relationship between what happens in your head and what is happening in the outside world is very close together.
So neurotypical people can separate the outside world from the internal world.
People with ADHD have a lot of trouble with this.
And if we listen to Dr. Michaela, she's like, you know, these are variants and we should stop trying to make those people neurotypical.
I completely agree.
It's a huge part of what I do.
I started preparing for this stream this morning.
I just could not be bothered to deal with this until like basically this morning because I was doing something else before then.
And if I start preparing for it two days from now, it's going to be really hard for me to focus on what I have to do two days ago.
Or sorry, two days ago, not from now.
If I start preparing for something two days from now, it'll like occupy my head and I won't be able to focus on what's going on today.
So the key thing here is that we're environmentally oriented.
So the thing that you have to do at 4 p.m.
fills up your brain and there isn't space for anything else.
Right.
So you're thinking about that thing.
You're thinking about the thing.
We can't stop thinking about it and do something else.
So this is what I found time and time and time again.
If there's something that you're in, this is why we respond so much to the environment.
Right.
So like if there's a deadline, if there's a test that I have to study for tomorrow, I will study today.
Whatever is coming down the line will fill up my head.
Now, why is it that we can't do this, right?
Why can't we empty our head and just focus on the job interview at 4 p.m.?
This is because we tend to have a lot of difficulty restraining our impulses, restraining our thoughts.
We cannot shift our attention away from this.
And part of the reason that we have difficulty with that is because this is the way that we have learned to survive, right?
So if something is important, we don't want to forget.
If something is important, it demands all of my attention.
And so what we sort of learn with ADHD, and you all may have experienced this, right, is once something is in your head, it's there for a long time.
When I get really excited, or it's there until it isn't.
So the ability to put things into your head or take things out of your head, that is the fundamental deficit in ADHD.
We cannot switch.
It's a problem.
Remember, it's an attention deficit disorder, which means there are problems with attention.
dark.
That goes both ways.
It's not just that you can't focus.
It's also that you can get into hyper focus.
Yeah.
So can we, can we tunnel down into this idea of a filtering deficit?
So our brain says this is important.
Hey chat, welcome to the Healthy Gamer GG podcast.
Let's not forget important things deserve to be thought about.
Therefore, we're going to think about them.
And so what this looks like is a huge amount of unproductivity, right?
So people will say, like, what is a symptom of ADHD?
Everyone's like, we procrastinate.
Although, why do we procrastinate?
We look at this and we say we're procrastinating, we're wasting time.
It's that your mind is occupied.
Your mind has to be occupied.
It can't afford to do other things prior to 4 p.m.
until we learn how to train ourselves in that direction, okay, which we'll get to in a second.
What does that mean?
Second thing that we're going to talk about is guilt.
So this person says, always feeling like I'm guilty or as if I'm in trouble, always feeling that whatever chore activity I'm doing, I'm doing it wrong and I should be doing something else.
How does this happen?
Always guilty.
Doing things wrong.
Now, when you look at something like this, you may say this looks like depression.
And that's why the differential diagnosis is really important.
You know, this is why jumping to this as a symptom of ADHD is you have to be careful.
Because there could be other things that can make you feel always guilty.
Everything is for educational or entertainment purposes only.
You can have a history of trauma.
You can have a mood disorder.
You know, you can have abusive parents growing up.
You can have something like dependent personality disorder.
This subjective feeling doesn't necessarily, it's not a smoking gun for ADHD.
Now let's talk about the mechanism of why this happens in ADHD.
So why does a human being think that they're always doing something wrong?
Because they were taught they are always doing something wrong.
It's not rocket science.
So when you grow up with ADHD, you make all kinds of mistakes, okay?
So when I make a mistake and I, like, forget to do my homework, right, or I did my homework but I leave it at home and then I get feedback.
They're like, hey, you were supposed to do your homework.
You didn't do your homework.
Bad you.
But if we think about it for a second, everybody makes mistakes.
Neurotypical kids forget their homework too.
They don't have this.
Why?
Here's the key thing.
When a neurotypical child usually makes a mistake, they usually have the executive function, the emotional regulation, the ability to regulate their attention to correct the mistake.
So I forgot it once, I won't forget it again.
This type of feedback is useful in a neurotypical world.
So when a neurotypical person says, hey, you forgot, don't do it again, and a neurotypical person hears that, they're like, I forgot, I won't do it again.
The big difference is not the mistake that you make, but that for one person, our society is designed to help them correct the mistake.
It is sufficient to help them correct the mistake.
But with an ADHD kid, the world that we live in does not support us in the right way to not make that mistake again.
So then what ends up happening is if I make a mistake and someone tells me to do it differently, I say to myself, I need to do this differently.
But if I make the mistake again,
Then what happens?
Then I'm still worried about it.
I make the mistake again, and I make the mistake again.
So eventually what'll happen is with a neurotypical kid, when you make a mistake, you correct your mistake, and then you can relax.
You're not always doing something wrong.
You made a mistake, you fixed it, now you can relax.
But with ADHD...
You can't correct your mistakes, which means the only way for you to not make mistakes is to be paranoid, be in a constant state of hypervigilance because you cannot count on yourself to correct your problems.
Therefore, unless you are thinking in this moment, I am making a mistake, I am doing it wrong, there must be a better way to do it because you've said that to yourself all the time and then you forgot about it and then you ended up making the mistake again.
So this paranoia of constant mistakes, this sense of overwhelming guilt that you feel all the time is your adaptive mechanism.
Because if I'm always worried that I could be doing something wrong, what is the likelihood that I will do something wrong?
If I stop worrying that I'm making a mistake, what's going to happen?
I'm going to make a mistake.
People tell me to pay attention.
People tell me not to forget.
People tell me to focus.
And the way that I'm going to do that is by being paranoid.
There are a couple of other mechanisms here.
So in our ADHD guide and guide to doing stuff, we talk a lot about the comorbidity between ADHD and depression.
There's another YouTube video about it.
So kids with ADHD...
There's a causal link with a mood disorder and low self-esteem because you can tell that your IQ is about the same as everybody else's.
Kids are actually quite good at judging IQ, but you know that you can't perform the way that they can.
You know you're just as smart as your classmates, but for some reason you get Ds and they get As.
And so what you come away with is this idea there must be something broken within me because it's easy for everybody else.
And people will say, just focus, just try harder, try harder, try harder.
And you're like, I am trying harder.
And then it doesn't work.
So then you think, okay, like that must mean that there's something within me that's fundamentally broken, right?
I'm going through life with a flat tire, but I'm jamming my foot on the gas pedal just like everybody else.
There's something within me that is fundamentally broken.
That will propagate the guilt, right?
The third thing is there is an emotional regulation deficit.
So people with ADHD will experience emotions more intensely, more quickly, and for a longer period.
So this may be like a 4 out of 10 guilt for a neurotypical person.
That'll turn into an 8 out of 10 guilt.
It'll persist for way longer.
So they sort of live with this constant feeling of I could be doing better.
Maybe I'm doing things wrong.
Maybe I feel guilty.
Okay?
Really common.
And if you look at it, right, so what I like about this is like an unrecognized symptom of ADHD is literally if we pull out the DSM, excessive guilt or paranoia that you're always doing something wrong is not going to be a diagnostic feature.
That won't be part of the DSM criteria.
Does that make sense?
So I think this kind of stuff can be good on the internet.
I think people get a lot of things wrong, but this is pretty good.
Okay, so this is a fun one.
The complete inability to engage with a topic I see no practical use for or have any interest in.
Okay?
So this is an attention direction issue, but I want to pull up a paper real quick that I want to show you all.
If you all have a medical concern or question, please go see a licensed professional.
The primary brain-based challenge of self-regulation.
You can pay attention when you want to.
That phrase painfully reverberates throughout the life trajectory of people with ADHD, but this is the quote that I really like.
In a sense, then, there is a kernel of truth to the perception that ADHD adults can do something when they want to do it.
As one middle-aged man with a late diagnosis of ADHD put it, I overdo what I want and I underdo what I need to do.
Love that quote.
This is the core problem.
It is a problem of attention regulation.
That when you want to do something, you overdo it.
You can't stop yourself from doing it.
Because something happens where we get these signals from the outside that fill up our mind with like, oh, my God, I want to do this.
I can't put this down.
I need to do more.
I need to do more.
I need to do more.
That's a text on ADHD and couples relationships, couples therapy for people with ADHD.
It's specifically a text around – it's a treatment manual for therapists who are working with –
people with adhd who have relationship issues it's like couples therapy for adhd okay that's what the text is called it's a really great book um so this is where that's the core problem right so you can overdo what you want to do but you underdo what you need to do
And this is where this is why I think that like the biggest thing here is it's not that you can't do what you need to do.
It's that the cost of it is way higher.
So I think the most underappreciated symptom of ADHD is the energy it takes to do what everybody else is doing.
It's kind of like playing a game where you're on hard difficulty and everybody else is on normal difficulty.
The game is roughly the same.
The enemies are the same.
You find the same loot leveling roughly works the same, but you take twice as much damage from all the hits and you do half as much damage to all of the enemies.
It's just this flat quantifiable difficulty buff.
Right.
But buff in the sense that the game is harder.
And so I think when you go through life, you look around and you see all these people are like doing all this stuff and it's like you can kind of, you can do it, but it just costs you so much more.
And so I think this creates all kinds of problems with expectations.
It creates all kinds of things with like the way that you act, right?
So you like try to force yourself into doing things.
You should be able to do it.
Other people are able to do it.
What's wrong with me?
How do I figure this out?
Like, you know, what do I do?
So we just end up pushing ourselves way harder.
So even something as simple as if you get into a fight with someone, the amount of exhaustion that your brain experiences is way higher.
And let me show you all another paper, actually, that touches on this.
So here's another paper.
So participants communicated that...
Masking around neurotypical people was difficult and often required tremendous energy to maintain.
When participants were no longer able to maintain this energy, they reported that their mask dropped, leading to extreme emotional instability.
My emotions can go from like all like nothing at all to all of a sudden I'm not able to maintain that mask anymore.
And it's like a thousand miles an hour or all hitting me all at one time, which in turn, which turns me into a blubbering wreck.
I had to learn the hard way that masking is not the benefit that I think it is.
Participants felt different from neurotypical people and responded to this by masking their ADHD symptoms, sometimes to the point of apparently changing their symptoms.
And masking was seen as emotionally difficult to maintain.
And this is what the neuroscience supports as well.
So if we look at what drains your willpower, emotional regulation is one of our top willpower drains.
Suppressing your emotions, right?
So your emotions are much bigger, more intense.
And so keeping those in check causes lots of problems, drains you more than anything else.
And then you don't have anything left in the tank for like other things.
So in terms of these problems, you know, how do we approach this?
I think this is where a lot of understanding goes a long way.
Okay?
And a lot of adaptation becomes really important as well.
So this is why, you know, Michaela's holding a workshop where she talks about adulting.
Let me see if I can pull this up.
Right?
So, like, I love the title.
ADHD adulting, getting your shit together.
Yay.
That's what it's about.
But we're going to share some of these principles with y'all, okay?
There's a lot more skills-oriented stuff over there.
If you are an ADHD person, if you're a neuroatypical person who tries to force yourself to live a neurotypical life, it's going to be really exhausting.
So the amount of energy that you put in is not going to be commensurate with the yield that you get.
Now, the reason that we do this is because this is what we're told to do.
We need to focus more.
We need to try harder.
Stick with one thing.
So usually what I try to do is instead of forcing my ADHD patients to do things the way that everybody else does them, I think you should start with the question of what brings you to your best, right?
How do you do this in the best way possible?
Like you doing it.
So something as simple as if you can't focus...
On anything during the day, if you have an interview at 4 p.m., do your best not to schedule interviews at 4 p.m.
And what I tend to find is most of my patients lack the executive function training to think that far ahead.
They don't consider that, right?
So you have to sit down and start to make rules for yourself.
What are the rules for you?
Because your brain ain't automatically going to do it.
So a big part of this is also formalizing the process of making change.
So what are the rules that bring out the best in you?
And look at them on a piece of paper.
Start following those rules when you structure your life.
And if someone says, hey, we're sorry, the only time we can do is at 4 p.m.
This is also really common where my patients with ADHD, you know, job interview calls me back and they say, hey, we'd love to bring you in for an interview.
Does 4 p.m.
next Tuesday work?
And what does someone with ADHD say?
They say yes.
Without even thinking about it.
Because we don't want to piss people off.
We're lucky to get this job.
We want this at all.
We want this so much.
We don't want to risk them not liking us.
How does that result in a doom pile?
So instead of just creating that situation for yourself, take a step back and say, do you all have anything available in the morning?
When's the first morning slot you have available?
You just say that.
So if you're someone...
Who can't focus if you've got something at 4 p.m.
and someone at some point that time is offered to you usually, right?
If you have no choice, it's a different story.
Like if you have an exam or something that's scheduled for everybody.
But I would say 80% of the time people will ask you if 4 p.m.
works.
Say, don't even make an excuse.
This is where we get into excuses.
Don't make an excuse.
Don't provide a reason.
Does 4 p.m.
work with you?
Do you have any availability in the morning?
That is all you say.
Really hard with ADHD because you want to say so much.
There's so much in your head.
No.
Do you have anything available in the morning?
Not on that day.
When's your first morning availability?
We don't have anything that week.
So welcome everybody.
Okay, fine.
Then 4 p.m.
will work.
And you can say, look, if you guys don't have any morning availability, I really want to come to this interview.
I'd love to do 4 p.m.
If y'all have anything available that week in the a.m., like, I would strongly prefer that.
Right?
You don't need to know reasons or anything like that.
You don't have to explain or justify or whatever.
Second thing is that a lot of the problems you have to solve are solved outside of the problem.
This is such a huge mistake that people with ADHD make, my patients make.
They come in, they say, oh, I'm having problems with my relationship.
That is not a problem that you solve in your relationship.
I know that sounds insane.
This is where, once we understand the mechanism of ADHD, there are root problems.
issues in the brain, that if we correct those root issues, the downstream problems will get corrected.
So this is why everyone's like, if someone tells me to meditate one more time, I'm done.
Why do we tell people to meditate?
Because meditate will strengthen your brain in the way that will help you with these problems, which then gets to the whole
It's hard for people with ADHD to meditate.
That's why we go into that in the guide and we have a bunch of stuff on our channel.
So you guys can take a look at that stuff if you want to, how to meditate with ADHD.
We have this program specifically for training your impulse control and attention.
Okay.
So a lot of times this emotional regulation stuff, this attentional control stuff is
And this is the big mistake that people with ADHD make.
We want to solve our problem and skill up at the same time.
We want to skill up to solve our problem.
We want to work on our problem and skill up.
You can't work on your problem.
I mean, you can, that's a terrible way to do it.
You should skill up outside of the problem, right?
So if I'm like preparing to play professional tennis,
The practice happens outside of the match.
Today we have a couple of awesome things in store for y'all.
In ADHD, you want to level up while you are solving the problem.
The leveling up is outside of the problem.
When I go into an instance and I try to take down a raid boss, if I wipe, the way to not wipe is to gear up outside of the raid boss.
But we get so hyper-focused on this particular thing.
We want to solve this thing.
We want to solve this thing.
We want to solve this thing.
We don't level up outside of it.
So if you look at things like what does therapy for ADHD actually entail, it involves leveling up.
It's kind of like training for a marathon, and then there's the marathon.
Everyone with ADHD, what they do is they just show up at the marathon.
They try to run it.
They fail, and they're like, I need to try way harder.
I need to try way harder.
They show up at the marathon again, and then they fail again.
They say, I need to try way harder.
They show up to the marathon a third time, and they fail again.
Now you've created another problem, which is that you failed at a marathon three times, and what do you think about yourself?
You start to think, I'm never going to be able to run a marathon.
You start to think to yourself, I'm not a marathon person.
You start to feel hopeless.
Therein comes the depression.
Okay?
So skills training is outside.
And now why is this so common sense?
Why doesn't everyone do it?
And that's where we go back to this.
I overdo what I want and I underdo what I need to do.
This is what's so devastating about it.
Meditating is leveling up your brain so that you will be able to do these kinds of things in the future.
But what do you think is the actual attraction to meditating in the here and now?
When you have a circuitry,
That is externally oriented.
When you have a circuitry that is environmentally oriented, when you have a task that yields you no immediate benefit, like studying for an exam that you have at the end of the month, your brain does not want to do it.
This is why it is such a crippling issue.
Because the whole point is that you can't do it ahead of time.
You need that external level of environment.
to motivate you in order to act.
So training outside of doing the task, going and grinding gear so that you can down the raid boss is incredibly boring.
It's not how your motivation system works.
So how do you address that?
And that's where I suggest you start very concretely in doing things that are not important to do.
So as you look around, you'll see there's all kinds of stuff that you should do.
all kinds of things that you need to do and all kinds of things that you want to do.
What I encourage you to do is just practice doing the task that you don't want to do.
And it's not even about should or need.
It is recognizing that once your brain has a certain motivational system that is active, once I train my brain only to act in last-minute panic, then what I require is last-minute panic in order to act.
You know what I love about this conversation?
Right?
Neurons that fire together, wire together.
So we want to start unwiring those neurons.
We want to take a small little thing.
I have this thing that has been sitting on my desk for six months.
And this is something that my daughter 3D printed for me in 3D printing class.
It's been sitting here.
I didn't want to throw it away.
I think it's a cat, maybe.
Can't tell.
Yeah, maybe it's a cat, some kind of animal.
Sorry to interrupt.
And it's just been sitting here.
I also have a sanitizing wipe from United on my desk.
And I have a pencil.
These three objects have been sitting on my desk for like a year.
So what am I going to do today when I'm done with stream?
I'm going to take care of these three objects.
Now it's important to understand why I'm doing this.
This is literally how I talk to my children.
I'm not doing it because I should do it.
I'm not doing it because it needs to be clean.
I'm doing this because I want to train myself to decouple action from environmental stimulus.
I want to start acting when I don't need to.
And this is where, like Dr. Michaela said, a big mistake that we make is that we try to start with things that are emotionally active for us.
We start with things that are important.
Huge mistake.
Don't start with the things that are important.
Start with the things that are unimportant.
Because if something is important, it's going to trigger your emotional circuitry.
The moment that you trigger your emotional circuitry, remember we have an emotional dysregulation problem with ADHD.
So you know how we like shoes and we need to wear shoes most of the day.
So those emotions are going to hit you harder, they're going to hit you faster, and they're going to hit you for longer.
You're actually making things hard for yourself.
If I'm a level 1 character and I start aggroing level 90 mobs and I keep wiping over and over and over again, I'm not actually leveling up.
So start with tasks that are unimportant and focus on doing it just to train yourself to get into the habit of doing things without it being important.
Great place to start.
Right?
Yeah.
And you know how when we go to the store because you need a new pair of shoes and you walk out with five pairs of shoes.
So people are saying that's my life in a nutshell.
Wiping against level 90 mobs and thinking we're leveling up doesn't work like that.
But that's what our media shows us, right?
Like, oh, I'm the, you know, there's, oh, actually, sometimes there's lots of training montages.
But anyway.
Let's do questions, and then we got a couple of other things that we can do.
And while we're doing questions, so I'm going to do something apparently funsies.
Okay, guys, give me a second.
I'm now doing streaming things.
We've got Dr. Michaela with us, an expert in ADHD.
Okay, and then we're going to go to YouTube.
And the funny thing is I don't feel condescended to at all.
But I like how you're like, okay, let's start with the basics.
Yeah, so, you know, this is kind of, I remember, and he did, it's funny, Stephen did actually tell me, he told me that.
So, you know, he had mentioned that something got messed up or something, but he's an amazing interviewer.
So please keep going.
And really love the dude.
He's great.
I didn't know that side of the story, but yeah.
And that's where it's kind of interesting because people will ask me like, you know, when we do interviews.
But I just love that.
So I actually try not to do research.
Like I will try to not, I try to go in blind because what I find is especially on the internet, like if you look at the internet, like everyone has all these judgments and opinions and all this stuff about, you know, like who this person is.
And I think if you go in blind, like all that's going to do is bias you towards this person.
Right.
If they're if they're an asshole, that'll show.
And if they're but if they're not and you go in like this is it's so sad.
Like I see this all the time, especially with, you know, there was a couple of pretty bad shootings here in the US over the last week.
And and, you know, people like approach these conversations and you start the conversation with like guns blazing.
You start the conversation with like so much negativity.
There's there's no sense.
Of... Devoiding yourself... Like, voiding yourself of, like... All of your prior conceptions.
And so what ends up happening is...
It's just like I'm coming into the conversation with all like fully armed, ready to throw down.
I've already made my judgments.
There are so many interviews that are like kind of like gotcha, right?
There's like kind of gotcha journalism.
I'm going to try to like I already know what I'm going to say.
This conversation is actually me manipulating you into saying what I want you to say.
And I see this all the time with like political TV shows where someone will like say something that's like somewhat moderate.
And then what the interviewer will do is they'll polarize it.
I don't know if you guys have seen this.
They just polarize it.
So we get home.
They're like, so are you saying that killing babies is good?
They do this reflexive polarization.
You're not trying to understand what the other person is actually saying.
Yeah.
Conversation becomes like a form of like,
I don't know, like just getting what you want out of the other person.
You're trying to extract something from the other person.
Right?
So I think, and I think this is why, you know, on occasion, I make the mistake, because I love it, of watching LSF.
I will browse LSF.
I love LSF.
I think it's terrible.
And I think it's great.
I love it.
And what I see on there, anytime there's like beef between people, is that no one is trying to understand the other person.
Right?
So when you converse with someone, there's no attempt to understand.
There's just, I'm going to try to prove you wrong.
Here's my perspective.
Here's my point.
And I really think if you want to understand what's destroying the world, like number one reason the world is going to shit, it's that no one is trying to understand.
It's just not considered important.
Winning is important.
Being right is important.
And why is being right right?
Let's understand this.
Right?
Let's understand.
This is really important.
Being right is important because if I don't win...
And if we do it your way, the world is going to get worse.
The world is going to get worse in a really, really noticeable way.
You can talk about Gaza.
You can talk about politics.
You can talk about health care.
You can talk about whatever.
There is so much on the line that we need to win.
Because if we don't win, then everything will fall apart.
If you take an issue like climate change, if we don't win, the world is going to end.
And if we don't win, the economy is going to go into the dumpster.
The stakes are so high that understanding where someone else is coming from doesn't seem to be important at all.
Got it.
And if you look at why the world is getting worse,
Right.
So this is where like when my patients come to me and, you know, sometimes I'll have like ideas for them that they don't like.
And I'll sort of ask them, OK, like, so here's your strategy in life.
Right.
Do I understand this right?
How's it working out for you?
And if you are not happy with the way your life is going, then change your strategy.
It's that simple.
I don't care about why your strategy is right.
I don't care about why my strategy is wrong.
That all becomes irrelevant.
If you are not happy with the results, change your actions.
It's that simple.
So simple.
In the East, we call this karma.
In physics, we call it Newton's third law, right?
If you act in a particular way, it will create certain results.
And then oftentimes we think like, oh, I didn't do it hard enough.
I need to do it more.
I need to do it more.
Right?
And so if you don't like the way that things are going, then we need to change our angle.
And this has been, maybe it's just top of mind for me right now because we had, like I said, a couple of bad shootings happen in the United States and everyone's kind of talking about it.
And I see the same stuff that I see all the time, which is that no one is trying to understand.
Right?
Everyone is just looking to blame, and the stakes are high, and we can't afford to lose.
And so we look at the way the world is right now.
The world is the way that it is right now because it's what we made.
It's what we did.
We made certain choices that create the world that we live in.
The world that we live in is a consequence of the choices that we make.
If you have litter in your streets or your streets are clean, that is determined by the choices of the people that live there.
Very simple.
I'm not saying that a choice is right or a choice is wrong or left or right or whatever.
I don't comment on that because I know this sounds insane.
I don't know.
And I don't know not because I'm not trying to take responsibility or anything like that.
But this is a situation where I see a lot of people who are very, very convinced that they're right.
And so if I want to understand what I think is right, I should start by understanding what they think is right.
That's the only way that this is going to work.
Right.
And in terms of like what to do about this, like, I don't know if people have tried this or not.
But if you have any persistent conflict in the world, take your hot button political issue of choice.
I wonder what would happen if you took everyone involved or you took a couple people involved and you threw a psychiatrist in the mix to try to facilitate a conversation.
That's literally what we do.
We take people that are on the verge of divorce or in the process of divorce that hate each other, that are done with each other, and we use a certain skill set to increase understanding on both sides.
We're going to be talking about uncommon signs or symptoms of ADHD, explaining a little bit about what causes them, explaining a little bit about hopefully what to do about it.
Instead, what I see is negotiation.
There's a great book called Don't Split the Difference or Never Split the Difference, which is about negotiation.
It's written by this FBI hostage negotiator who talks about how you can always get what you want.
There's no spirit of cooperation anymore.
And this is where why isn't there a spirit of cooperation?
Because it's their fault.
They don't want to cooperate.
And that's where it's like, let's take a step back, right?
If you take someone who's like in the process of divorce, I've already done everything.
They're the problem.
They're making all the mistakes.
I'm right.
They're wrong.
Other partner says they're making all the mistakes.
I'm right.
They're wrong.
This is how it is.
We're all sure that the other person is an idiot and I'm doing everything right and they're doing everything wrong.
Sound like any political conflict that you know?
Sound like any issue that sound familiar?
So the first thing that we got to do is understand, right?
Not change, not win, not negotiate.
Right?
And maybe this doesn't work.
Maybe the reason that there are no psychiatrists helping out with this kind of thing is because people tried it before and it didn't work.
And it made things worse.
That's a possibility.
Right?
Like it's, I don't want to, you know, I have so many people in my head right now that I would like to talk about, but that's not something that we do here.
Maybe you guys can piece together the puzzle, put the puzzle pieces together.
But I mean, it's the kind of thing where it's like, you know, I could have a conversation with someone and I think we should give it a shot.
Like, try it, right?
Try it.
Let's try to take two people who really disagree about something and just see how far we can get.
And I don't want to comment on particular people because I don't think that that's right.
And I realize now I was like, oh, now you guys can maybe put the puzzle in.
That's shitty.
I'm sorry for doing that.
But really, a big ethos of this channel is that we don't talk about people.
We really don't.
We talk to people.
And anyway, thus the rant endeth.
So I apologize for doing that because now I stirred up more shit than before.
But okay.
How can I upskill things like learning a language when ADHD limits my ability to not self-motivate due to no deadlines, etc.?
Okay, this is great.
So people with ADHD, how do you upskill when there's no deadline?
So I want to learn a language.
I want to learn an instrument.
I want to start exercising.
I should clean out my closet.
There's a lot of stuff that I really do want to do.
I want to do it.
But there's nothing externally motivating me.
And that's where the key thing is to decouple your action from external motivation.
And there's a great paper I'm going to pull up.
First, extrinsic reinforcers have elicited amygdala, ACC, ventromedial prefrontal cortex, orbitofrontal core, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, okay?
activity in healthy subjects that was associated with higher self-reported extrinsic motivation, but lower self-reported intrinsic motivation.
So first thing to understand, there are all these regions of the brain.
When we have activity in these regions in the brain, we have higher extrinsic motivation, i.e.
responding to deadlines, inner lower self-reported motivation.
Okay?
Now here's the cool thing.
Others report that intrinsic motivation was associated with the deactivation of the amygdala, dorsal ACC, ACC over here, ACC over here, right?
Dorsal medial striatum, ventral striatum, not exactly the same, but in the same ballpark, and insula.
This is another piece of evidence linking neural deactivation to intrinsic motivation.
Y'all understand?
This is what a lot of people don't realize.
You can be externally motivated or internally motivated.
You literally in your brain cannot do both.
There are some circuits in the brain.
When those circuits are on, we are externally motivated.
When those circuits are off, we are internally motivated.
Literally, it's the same part of your brain.
It's kind of like I can be breathing or I can be swallowing.
There's one space.
Esophagus is collapsible.
There's two tubes.
And when stuff goes down the neck, it either goes into the lungs or into the mouth.
You can't do both at the same time.
You have this one part of your brain.
If it's on, you're externally motivated.
If it's off, you're internally motivated.
The basic problem in ADHD is that we are overly extrinsically motivated.
So as long as that circuitry is active, how can I do something without deadlines?
As long as your brain is wired to respond to deadlines, you will never do anything on your own.
So then the question becomes, how do we deactivate it?
And that is where we have to literally stop being externally motivated.
So this is what's confusing for people.
They're like, how do I internally motivate?
How do I force myself to do this thing?
That's not the right thing.
What you want to do is shut off extrinsic motivation as best as you can.
So start to do more tasks for no reason whatsoever.
Start to do things.
Don't try to do this thing.
The thing that is important to you that you can't do without a deadline.
Don't try to do that without a deadline.
Start to do anything.
Without a deadline.
It doesn't matter what it is.
This is really confusing for people.
Because they're like... Like, I'll give you all a simple example.
Start brushing with your teeth.
That's when you know you've streamed too long.
Start brushing with your teeth.
Start brushing your teeth with your non-dominant hand.
Okay?
Just start brushing your teeth with your non-dominant hand.
Start doing things for like no point whatsoever.
Okay?
That is one way to do it.
Second thing is where people get a little bit confused.
But you need to start taking actions, I know this sounds weird, based on your choices.
So make choices.
It doesn't matter what the choice is.
It's not about, don't think about what is the right choice or the wrong choice.
Okay?
This is really important.
So when I think about right choice or wrong choice,
That is an external factor.
Right means, okay, what should I major in in college?
Which thing will make me the most money?
How do I show up at what should I wear to work so I get promoted?
All the time we're trying to make the right choice.
Stop trying to make the right choice.
Make a choice.
Make the choice that you feel like.
Not the choice that you want.
It's not a desire.
Not the choice that you should do.
Just make a choice.
Today I'm going to do this.
Why?
Because I feel like it.
Make an intentional choice.
This is different with ADHD.
Don't follow an impulse.
Following an impulse is not making a choice.
And according to this beautiful thing called self-determination theory, intrinsic motivation is going to come from making choices, not making right choices, just the part of your brain that chooses between two things.
Yeah, so it sounds like this is an issue of, I guess, prioritization.
I don't know if this makes sense.
Follow me here, okay?
When I should do something, that is my brain looking outside and saying like, okay, this is the right choice to make.
This is what I should do.
This is what I need to do.
I'm not actually making the choice.
I'm being forced to make a choice.
Does that make sense?
The moment right and wrong enter the picture, now you're forced into making a choice.
It's not really your choice.
Practice your freedom.
What are you going to do today?
Would you say that as well?
This is important to understand.
You have to understand it has to be an intentional choice that you make.
Just do it is usually the reason.
I mean, it's not wrong, but the reason is like a lot of people like, how do I get to work out?
Like, oh, you just you just do it.
You just do it.
Like that the inability to filter is how we rank things and our frontal lobes are the things that will basically weigh stuff against other things.
What we're talking about is an internal process.
It is not about the doing it.
This is the thing.
When you say just do it, it is the action.
Remove all mental process.
That's incorrect.
Doesn't work.
You need to do something internally.
Make a choice.
Second thing that you need to do to activate your intrinsic motivation is stretch your capacity.
This is the second thing that...
People who are extrinsically motivated never do.
You want to know why everyone feels so directionless in life?
It's because they never stretch their capacity.
In fact, what they try to do is the minimum of their capacity.
How hard can I work to not get fired?
We have all this like anti-work stuff going on.
Do companies take advantage of people in a really shitty way?
Absolutely.
And how do we respond to this?
We respond to this by doing the bare minimum.
And there's a lot of boomers out there who are like, you should work hard and you should do this and you should do this and you should do this.
And my day we worked hard.
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't work hard from a work standpoint.
What I'm saying is that from a neuroscientific standpoint, if you do the bare minimum, you will never be internally motivated.
Because what is the bare minimum?
Pay attention now, okay?
What is the bare minimum?
The minimum is decided by someone outside of you.
How hard do I work to not get fired?
So your brain is literally thinking about the minimum amount of effort required for this external thing to happen.
You're externally motivated again.
Stretch your capacity.
So whatever you are capable of doing, try to do more.
And I'm not saying to do it to get promoted, because if you do it to get promoted, it's still extrinsic motivation.
Like, do we want to do this first or this first?
We're trying to deactivate these circuits in the brain.
Do you all understand?
The why becomes the most important thing.
And everyone focuses on the how or the what.
Or efficiency or productivity, that's all about output.
They're not focusing on the internal.
That's why we have a mental health crisis.
That's why we have a burnout crisis.
That's how we sequence.
That's why we have a productivity crisis.
That's why we have a motivational crisis.
Because we started focusing on efficiency and productivity and getting more for doing less.
And in doing so, we literally shut off the circuits in our brain that make us intrinsically motivated.
We flipped that switch.
So I'm hearing filtering is sort of related to sequencing.
So stretch your capacity.
I love this because this is something that gamers know how to do all the time.
I fucking play Dota with these people who are terrible at Dota.
And the reason that they're terrible is because they throw all the time.
And why do they throw all the time?
Because they're pushing their limits.
We're ahead by like 10K.
We're winning.
And they're like, let's tower dive.
Let's see if we can tower dive and survive.
And why do those people play Dota?
Yes.
They're intrinsically motivated.
No one is telling them you're going to play Dota because it's going to help you on your resume.
No one is telling them it's going to help you get laid.
And so you said that you have one pile left, which is your papers.
It's going to help you do this.
It is the stretching of your capacity.
Let's see if we can do more.
Another great example of intrinsic motivation.
I went on a hike with my kids about a month ago.
And they'd like see a rock.
They're like, let's see if we can climb it.
That's it.
And if you look at kids, they're so intrinsically motivated.
Before your ass and my ass got beaten down.
By society and grades and you got to do this and you got to do this and got to do this.
We used to have zest in life, right?
We used to get excited to wake up every day.
When I was growing up, like we'd like go outside and we do, I don't even know what for 12 hours.
What'd you do today?
I played outside.
How did you deal with the other piles?
Oh, you want to meditate every day?
Let me give you points.
And if we give you points, then you'll do it more.
If you look at the world that we live in, it is shaping to be extrinsically motivated.
We have lost—I don't know if this is making sense—
We've lost so much intrinsic motivation that we've started to have to bribe people to do shit.
Right.
And I, I, oh, sorry.
And the more that we bribe people to do shit, the more that we activate their extrinsic motivation.
Do this so many times and then you'll get, like, come to our place to get nine sandwiches and then you'll get a tenth sandwich for free.
It's all about behavioral engagement, but it's behavioral engagement in one direction.
And now we have all these punch cards and we have all these trophies and we have all this gamification over here.
One, one last thing.
Gamification over there.
Work so that you get promoted.
You should work extra hard so you do this.
I'm going to pick you up from the airport so now you owe me a blowjob.
I love how you said, you know, we, we buy this rack to get organized.
Everything that we do.
Nice guys.
Work stuff.
Meditation apps.
Extrinsically motivated.
Extrinsically motivated.
Extrinsically motivated.
And here's the really scary thing.
This is what's so devastating.
See, I want y'all to understand.
I've said this.
I don't know if y'all really get it yet.
Okay, and I'm not trying to be a dick.
Yes.
Okay.
Sorry, I got... Okay, no, but I mean, come on.
So I sort of feel like I'm constantly catching up, but never planning ahead.
Like, how do I keep talking?
Like, what the fuck, dude?
Don't y'all realize, like, it's the same thing.
It's just another example in a series.
We don't need to get all caught up about it just because it's sexual.
Like, tell me I'm wrong.
Right?
Like, that's my point, is we get all of this stuff.
We're like, oh, we're so caught up in, like, all this shit.
But it's like, it's the same thing.
We're extrinsically motivated.
Whether you're working extra hard to get a promotion or you're picking up someone who friendzoned you 10 years ago to get a blowjob, it's the same thing.
I'm serious.
I'm not trying to shame a good BJ.
All I'm saying is if you want a really good BJ, it shouldn't be externally motivated, not be something that you should be owed.
Be something that is given with love.
You feel me?
Okay, let's go back to the key thing.
Okay, no, don't fuck.
Stop.
I want to get, I was cooking there for a second.
And then you guys got caught up with the sex.
Okay, stop it.
We go back.
I return.
Okay, here's the key thing.
This is what I want you all to understand.
Right.
This is a part of your brain.
So I'm like, okay, I need like two bookshelves.
Okay, part of your brain.
So here's the really devastating thing.
If your brain, your brain is turned on, if it is turned on, it is, you carry that with you wherever you go.
Y'all get that?
Like, that is in your brain.
It's like, if I break a leg while I'm playing soccer, it causes me problems when I'm giving a blowjob.
Really?
I should have gotten three because I filled up the two.
Right?
Like, that injury carries forward to all of the things that I do.
If your brain...
Why do I stream?
Do I stream for the money?
Do I stream for the fame?
No, baby.
This right here, what you're seeing right here, this is intrinsic motivation.
But then the other thing that I sometimes worry about, I don't know if this has ever happened to you, but do you ever worry that if you buy extra space, like if you get like a big closet, you're just going to fill it up with junk?
Y'all see it?
Can y'all tell the difference?
Are we doing this for subs or likes or shares?
No.
This is for my pleasure, my benefit.
Y'all get me?
Okay?
All right.
So here's the thing.
Your brain, if it's turned on, oriented towards external motivation, that will carry with you wherever you go.
So here's the really scary thing.
Everyone's like, oh my God, I'm so burnt out at work.
I have to do this work.
I have to do this work.
Like I'm trying to get promoted.
And then they go home and they're like, oh, I don't feel like I have any energy anymore.
Oh my God, I have no energy.
I have no energy.
Oh my God.
That's because you've turned on your extrinsic motivation.
That circuit in the brain is activated, which means that the moment there's no external pressure, you will not act.
We've had Dr. Michaela on the channel a couple of times before.
The harder you work to get promoted, the less you will do for yourself in the rest of life.
So this is what's so scary.
I work with so many people.
Who can force themselves into external motivation.
I'm trying to get, and this is back when I was teaching at Harvard and all that stuff and all these like medical students at Harvard Medical School and they're rotating with me and stuff.
They're so like externally motivated.
A lot of them are really great people.
I love it.
It's a real privilege.
But some of them are like really paranoid and they're like, I got to get good grades.
I got to get good grades.
I got to get good grades.
They're so extrinsically motivated.
And so all the dimensions of their life where they're absolutely crushing it are extrinsically motivated.
Half of them are like that.
The other half are intrinsically motivated.
It's amazing to see.
Right?
Two kinds of students at Harvard go and volunteer in a jail.
One does it because they care about the people in the jail.
One does it because they want it to look good on the resume.
Those two are not the same.
And the really scary thing about extrinsic motivation is if you have a life...
where you are forced into extrinsic motivation, that circuitry will carry over into the other parts of your life.
That's why it's so hard to find motivation today.
So here's the really scary thing.
You can't have it both ways.
You can't be gunning for the promotion at work and then come home and be intrinsically motivated to do something else.
What's the purse problem?
It's one or the other.
I'm Dr. Alok Kanodja, but you can call me Dr. K. I'm a psychiatrist, gamer, and co-founder of Healthy Gamer.
So interestingly enough, everyone's saying, how do I find motivation intrinsically?
You need to let it go extrinsically.
This is where you got to stop caring about the promotion.
And this is where people make a huge mistake.
They say, stop caring about the promotion means, oh, that's easy.
I can mentally check out.
That's easy.
I had to force myself to care about work anyway.
I can mentally check out.
It's easy.
I can do that, bruv.
Ain't no thing.
Crucial mistake.
I'm not telling you to stop caring about working.
What I'm saying is that you should work twice as hard, but for no one but yourself.
You should work for your own sake.
You should go to work and you should say, I'm going to learn this shit as best as I can.
I'm going to learn this shit because I want to be really good at this thing.
I want to acquire this skill set.
I want to do right by my clients.
I want to do right by my coworkers.
I want to do right by my boss.
Not to make them happy, not to make money.
I'm going to do it because I'm going to do it.
And that's like, and it works so well.
It's what I did.
Worked great for me.
Taught it to a bunch of people.
I'm convinced this shit works.
As I go from a 2.5 GPA to like winning awards in medical school and not showing up to the award ceremony because you didn't even check your grades.
I don't care about the grade.
I went to learn medicine.
I went to learn everything I could about the body.
Comes from in here.
I didn't give a shit about anybody else or anything else.
It's great.
I highly, highly, highly recommend doing this in your life.
If this sounds arrogant or this is another influencer, I'm Dr. K. I'm so great at everything.
I realize that's what it sounds like.
But here's the thing.
I don't care what y'all think.
I speak it because I think it's true.
If you want to judge me for being another fucking soulless influencer, I don't think you're right.
But hey, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, maybe it's a duck.
Right?
Like, maybe all are right.
Who knows?
But can I really make a defensible argument there?
I don't think it's true, but I don't think I can make a defensible argument.
Great question.
And I love questions that get me on rants.
Oh, can you deal with shame and ADHD symptoms at the same time?
Oh my God, what a brilliant question.
She's run a workshop for us that was awesome.
Love it.
Or they have a diagnosis of ADHD.
In my mind, they have a diagnosis of major depressive disorder or depressive episodes until proven otherwise.
I default all of my patients in my mind to depression.
Now, does that mean I diagnose with that?
No.
What that means is that when someone grows up with ADHD, there's a really good chance that that creates a mood disorder.
Unless I understand that and unless I look for it, there's a really good chance I'm going to miss it.
So when I do therapy with people with ADHD, I do two kinds of therapy.
One is, here are all of the skills that you need to learn to succeed in your life.
Here's how you get organized.
Here's how you find motivation.
Here's how you pay attention in relationships.
Here's how you pay attention at your job.
Here's a little bit of that stimulant to help you out.
You know, I do all that stuff.
But...
I also discover that I have to do another kind of thing, which is I need to fix or we need to repair all of the psychological hurt of growing up with ADHD up until this point.
How do you deal with that?
All the things that you knew you were capable of that you got passed over for this girl that you really liked or this guy that you really liked that y'all went out on a date, but you couldn't pay attention to a fucking conversation.
So they ended up dumping you for someone else.
You know, all these people that texted you and you like saw the text, but you wanted to say something really important.
They sent you a really important text, but you didn't have time for a really important text right now.
So you said to yourself, I'm going to do it later.
And then what ends up happening is you forgot.
And so someone sent you a really important text.
And a month later, you realize, oh, shit, I got that text.
And I never responded to them.
And then it feels really stupid to respond to it a month later.
So then you don't know what to do.
And so then you're just kind of like, whatever.
The consequences.
of growing up with ADHD is different from treating the ADHD itself.
yeah how did you get down to just one so much love for yourself um yeah i it starts with um that was actually hilarious with so much love for yourself like i i love that that is not the answer and that's what we say to ourselves and that doesn't help us at all
So, to give you all an example, there's a great medication called an ACE inhibitor, angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitor.
When people have hypertension, hypertension means a high amount of pressure in the blood vessels.
So my blood pressure is super high.
So if the blood, if the pressure in the vessels is really high, the heart has to pump really hard, right?
So I have to overcome, if I want a pressure gradient, which means I want blood to flow from here to here, blood starts in the heart and the pressure is high in the system, I got to squeeze really hard, right?
to overcome, to create that pressure gradient.
So if my vasculature has a systolic blood pressure of like 150, the heart has to pump higher than 150.
So the heart starts pumping really, really, really hard.
This is hypertension.
Then the problem is if you go many years in your life having a high blood pressure, your heart will have to pump really hard.
And if it pumps really hard, what happens when a muscle works really hard, chat?
Y'all know?
Ah, beautiful.
Someone said heart becomes thick.
Perfect.
What happens when I lift a bunch of weights?
Dr. K gets swole.
The heart becomes swole.
The heart starts to swell.
But then we run into a really interesting problem.
So she is fantastic and awesome and everyone loves her, which is why she keeps coming back.
This is so scary.
So the heart gets blood from two places.
It gets blood from the inside because it's full of blood.
And we have these things called coronary arteries, which are on the outside of the heart.
So I've got some blood coming from arteries over here.
And I've got blood inside the chamber.
So I've got blood coming from both sides.
And the heart is happy.
But if my heart expands because it's getting swole, now I have arteries over here.
I've got blood over here.
They don't reach this middle area.
The heart becomes starved for blood, despite the fact that it is surrounded by blood.
There is the hypertension which causes problems, and then the heart tries to adapt to those problems.
That creates additional problems.
When we give someone an angiotensin-converting enzyme, we alter or we change the alterations in the heart themselves.
It doesn't just...
decrease the blood pressure, it alters the cardiac remodeling.
Do you all understand how these are two different things?
I can reduce the pressure directly, but then I can also prevent the adaptation that the heart makes in response to blood pressure.
This we have to do in ADHD.
There is the ADHD skills, which is like the blood pressure.
We got to teach you these skills, but then we have to fix the adaptation that is also causing problems.
The low self-esteem, the chronic feelings of guilt, the feeling like you're fundamentally broken.
These are the things when you grow up with undertreated or untreated ADHD, it shapes your psychology.
So anytime I'm working with someone, how do you deal with shame and ADHD?
Because the two spiral off of each other.
Absolutely.
Because not only do we have a lot of shame, our sensitivity to negative emotion in ADHD is higher.
Negative emotion controls us very powerfully.
So we have to fix that.
That's completely independent.
So that's why what I usually do is I do it sequentially, not at the same time.
Don't fix ADHD and shame together.
Not good.
So usually we'll start with the ADHD stuff.
So let's just like, bruh, if you're feeling terrible about yourself, we can talk about how you feel sad about yourself.
But like, if you're on probation at work, like, let's fix that shit.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, if your partner is really frustrated with you, like, let's rack up a couple of dubs before we, like, keep on racking up the L's.
So, like, let's, like, do this.
And that's where things like stimulant medication can come in.
Non-stimulant medication can come in.
Like, meditation can come in.
Like, let's actually, like, let's start by just putting out the fires.
Then we'll worry about rebuilding.
So I don't deal with them at the same time.
I usually try to deal with them sequentially.
So once you have some stability in your life, then let's ask this question.
And this is usually the thrust of the question I ask.
You've been here on this planet for 35 years, let's say.
You've gone this whole life.
You've been struggling so much.
Now you finally feel like things are under control and you're doing better.
This is a win, right?
This is good.
No.
What's it like to have to work this hard?
After all of this time, just to get back to normal.
What's it like to let everyone else just figure this stuff out and you've been suffering for 35 years and you had to come to my ass and this office for six months just to get your shit basically put out the fires?
What's it like to have lived a life where working so hard just gets you to normal?
And that's when the tears come.
And that's when we hug it out.
And they're like, all right, bruh, let's talk about it.
Now the real work begins.
Now, practically, I try to do it sequentially, but practically that conversation shows up way faster.
Like, it's not like they like do all that stuff, right?
But they come in and they're like, my problem is like, I have difficulty focusing at work.
And I'm like, okay, let's talk about difficulty focusing at work.
Here's some solutions you can try.
You should try meditating.
Have you heard of meditation?
Let me teach you how to meditate.
That's going to be a great.
That's going to be a great.
I'm going to fix that.
That's going to be great.
And then there's all this shame that's getting in the way of that.
So it's like, oh, yeah, I screwed up.
I know you told me to meditate.
I'm not meditating.
I'm so sorry.
I'm such a bad patient.
I'm like, oh, my God.
Love yourself.
Practice some self-compassion.
Grab a journal.
Let's talk about five things that you love about yourself every morning and every evening.
Doesn't that make you feel better?
Oh, you forgot that too?
Oh my god, let's do it now.
It's great.
Love yourself.
Did you watch more TikToks?
Watch TikToks about loving yourself.
That'll help.
Okay?
So practically it happens way earlier.
But... Yeah, so I think it's really hard to do them at the same time.
So I think doing it at the same time is like... It's really hard to do.
Don't do it.
Do one and then the other.
Like, come on, bruh.
Each of those is a problem that's too big to tackle and you want to do them both at once?
Like, what is this?
Like, Mantis Lord's Hollow Knight?
Like, I don't think so, bruh.
I wiped on the first guy way too much.
Okay.
Well, hopefully it moves you in the right direction.
Cool.
So someone did do a journal.
Look, I'm not against journaling.
I'm not against self-compassion.
I'm not against any of those things.
Those things are great.
They're great.
Oh, my God.
Have you tried it?
But also...
Um, Ooh, ADHD paralysis.
Why do I procrastinate on things that I want to do?
Okay.
It's a Saturday.
ADHD paralysis and procrastination.
I'm going to let y'all go ahead.
I was.
I'm going to, I'll prepare lectures on that.
Okay.
I will do lectures on ADHD paralysis.
Do I have a lecture?
Have we already done?
Let me look.
Have I done this before?
Uh, there's some good stuff about this, but I think I'm going to do, I'm going to, I'm a prep a lecture.
I'm a prep lecture about paralysis, procrastination, and ADHD.
I do that.
I do that for you.
So while I could just riff, I feel like I've riffed enough for today.
And also I think this is definitely something where while I could riff, I really think it's doing y'all a disservice because some of these things, like I want to make sure that the neuroscience is there and we've got like good stuff to say and things like that.
Um,
Yeah, so this is the great thing.
So someone's asking, ADHD paralysis and procrastination stems a lot from feeling overwhelmed.
Yeah.
No.
Yes, and there is a differential diagnosis.
There are all kinds of mechanisms, right?
There's things like time blindness.
There's like, the reason that you procrastinate is because your internal biological clock doesn't work well in ADHD.
And if your internal biological clock...
doesn't work well, we have a video on time blindness, so y'all should check that out.
If your biological clock doesn't work well, it doesn't know how to measure how long things take, right?
So imagine you were trying to measure how long something took, but you have no stopwatch.
And then how are you supposed to plan your day?
Like, and if you have ADHD, you know what I'm talking about.
sign up for my health insurance on the HR portal at my job.
How long does that take?
15 minutes or 15 days?
There's literally no way of knowing.
Oh, I have to write a paper?
How long does that take?
15 days or 15 hours?
Can I do it in one night?
Or two weeks.
There's literally no way of knowing.
And so if you think about it, imagine like there's an alien that has no concept of time.
How would they plan their day?
It becomes impossible.
So then the strategy in ADHD becomes wait till shit is falling apart and then just start doing it until it's done.
And that's what we do.
Just start and keep doing it until we're finished.
And then we get back full circle to like why we end up with so many things that we can't chip away at.
It's because we have to do everything all at once because that's the only way we know how to do it.
Because until we do it, until it's done, then it's going to keep being there.
And we don't know how long it'll take.
So I might as well keep doing it.
Got to do it at some point.
So might as well do it now.
Might as well do it until it's done.
And it's all because our brain has no biological clock.
So it's crazy.
This is what the problem with ADHD is like.
The brain is supposed to have certain features that are like required to do things like plan.
But how are you supposed to plan when you have no measurement of time?
So that's why it's so interesting.
But the solution is to use external sources of time tracking.
Use a stopwatch because here's what's really cool.
When you use a stopwatch, it goes in through a different part of your brain.
It goes in through your perception or sensory circuitry.
Here's the really cool thing.
The sensory or perception circuitry is really powerful with ADHD.
We can detect all kinds of things.
So instead of using, we need to turn our internal clock into a sensory perception.
And the moment that you start doing that, planning will become easier.
Procrastination will become easier.
Good luck, y'all.
Be sure to check out, if y'all are interested in practical tips like this, definitely check out Dr. Michaela's workshop.
It's on September 27th.
People say her workshops are epic.
She really focuses on a lot of skills training.
So if y'all are like, what do I do about this problem?
There's two things I'm going to say.
I can tell you what to do, but if you want to have the skill set done, like not done, but like if you have wanted to have leveled up, right?
But without further ado, we're going to hop in with Dr. Michaela.
If you want to finish the tutorial, like at the end of four hours, like you show up, like I think it's on Saturday or something.
You show up on a Saturday and at the end of the Saturday, you're like, you've made some significant progress.
If you want to have progress behind you, that's why y'all should do a workshop.
That's why we offer them because I don't know if this makes sense.
So I know I'm an influencer.
And so we have like work courses and workshops and stuff, but the re you know, y'all know why we do workshops because we've been making YouTube videos for five years.
And for some of y'all I've seen here, some of y'all it's been transformative, but for some of y'all it hasn't.
So it's like, like I was saying earlier, if a strategy isn't working, what should you do?
Should I just make a thousand more videos?
I am going to make a thousand more videos, but let's be clear.
Those thousand videos are,
Will hopefully help a lot of people.
But if you're someone who watches a lot of videos.
But never does anything about it.
You need a different kind of push.
Does that make sense?
We offered it because.
Watching stuff on the internet.
That's insane.
Watching stuff on the internet.
Doesn't equate.
To changing your life.
All the time.
Now I know we do good work here.
I know I'm Dr. K. If anyone can do it.
I can do it.
Right?
Yeah.
But sometimes you need a little bit more.
So go for it.
And hopefully it'll help.
And if that doesn't work, then we'll move on to something else.
Okay?
Take care, everybody.
Thanks for joining us today.
We're here to help you understand your mind and live a better life.
If you enjoyed the conversation, be sure to subscribe.
Until next time, take care of yourselves and each other.
So, so, but that's, that's really great because I think, I think this is what's interesting.
Cause, um, I know this is going to sound weird.
Like, so I recognize that we are both therapists and, and, you know, we are both doctors and, um, but there's a part of me that like, when I hear like, you know, love yourself, I'm like, that's not going to fix the problem.
But what I'm hearing from you is actually a very clear mechanistic.
Oh, yeah.
If your head is full of self-hatred, how are you going to have the cognitive bandwidth to actually organize?
And so I thought you were being sarcastic, but it turns out that you were being not sarcastic.
You should love yourself for anyone who's watching.
Great.
And it frees up your cognitive bandwidth.
Right.
So then you have the space.
And then what do you do?
Hello.
Hello.
How are you?
Me and you both, dude.
I got a late start this morning.
I have some family in town.
Why do you think it is that we're so attached to doing all of the things all at once?