Dr Chris Harding

Yeah.

And I suppose Prussia, Germany, it's another relatively new power trying to knit itself together as Japan is doing this period.

So they kind of see, I think, a natural European reflection there of what they're trying to do.

But obviously it upsets people.

So across the 1870s, early 1880s, when these institutions are kind of being put together, you do get people in Japan who will go around giving lectures saying, no, we want a British model.

We want a French model.

These leaders, they're doing generally a good job, but we want a say in how things work.

I suppose the other thing these leaders do quite cleverly is...

They got their army, which we talked about.

They've also got quite quickly a very effective police force who don't mind getting a bit rough, getting a bit rough if they have to, don't mind putting people in prison if they have to.

So that some of these meetings where, you know, I might go along giving a lecture saying, you know, I think rah, rah, rah, we should have a French-style democracy.

I might get yanked off stage by the police and put in prison.

Some of these people who are advocating for democracy end up giving their lectures on houseboats in the middle of the lake so the police can't get to them.

So they're doing their best, but they're slowly being clamped down on, I think.

So those kind of voices more and more get whittled away.

I think it was.

When they had that world tour and they came back, the leaders, that tour in the early 1870s,

That was their dominant thought.

I think they also, though, in places like London, Glasgow, Liverpool, they saw slums.

So when they got back, one of the things they wanted to do with their new civil servants.