Dr. Eric Verdin
Appearances
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So aging is the accumulation of disorder. And that disorder is caused by a whole series of external forces over which we have essentially no control. Think about gravity. Think about the gamma rays coming from interstellar radiation. Think about UV. Think about oxygen stress. All of these forces are there and they're always going to be with us.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
We collaborate with them. I think they are the best company right now in terms of providing a large number of assays. And I say large numbers, I think, is key. There are right now, there's a proliferation of these clocks. Many of them are epigenetic clocks. They're measuring methylation in DNA. The reason is not that these clocks are better than others.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
It's just that historically, they were the first one. This is work pioneered by Steve Horvat and his colleagues. So I did the same thing as you did. I measured all my clocks. I'm 67 years old, and my clocks came between 25 and 67. And of course, I look at the 25-year-old clock and I say, that's a really good clock. That's good.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And that's glycan age for whatever reason. Yeah. But the other clocks, frankly, varied between 42 and 67. So the question is, how do we sort through this? And
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Well, you picked the best one. So, I mean, there's obviously, there are some significant problems with this. These are not approved clinical tests, but I still think that they have value. And their value really comes back in repetitive measurement, just like you said. So you, you, you, you. First, you need probably to measure many of them.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
The paper that you're referring to is a paper in which we did plasmapheresis on a number of patients with a company called Circulate. And we found on a global scale that most of the clocks actually went back when these patients underwent plasmapheresis. But again, there was extreme variation between the different clocks. So I tell people, if you want to use the clocks,
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Companies like True Diagnostic will give you many numbers. They will be all over the place, but the true value comes in looking at how they change over time. Now, the prediction is that over time, We will not only have these epigenetic clocks, we will have proteomics clock, metabolomics clock, facial recognition clocks.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
You know, there's a proliferation of these clocks right now, and they paint a pretty complex picture. And I think they will allow us to do truly preventative medicine. Some of these recent clocks, for example, proteomics clock by Tony Wiskoray at Stanford, are able to measure organ-specific aging.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
which is going to be really critical because, of course, as we age, we are always limited by what I call the rate-limiting organ. It could be your liver that's going to fail first, and you would want to know and do an intervention that favors your liver versus your brain versus your heart and so on.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So I think we're right on the cusp of a revolution in diagnostics, and these epigenetic clocks is the first symptoms going in this direction.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
But interestingly, another anecdote, for example, someone did an interesting experiment where they measured the clocks at different times of the day in the same person. And they found over the 24-hour period, the clock would vary by five years.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Meaning that if you're going to do this, do it every time at the same time of the day, because there's obviously a diurnal variation in there.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So maybe I'll just take it one step backwards and just to alert your audience to the fact that there will be no magic pill. Aging is an incredibly complex mechanism. And you alluded to earlier in our discussion to these hallmarks of aging, which is think about it as a catalog of all of these abnormalities that happen during aging.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And that includes epigenetic dysregulation, senescent cells, failed nutrient sensing, defective stem cells, defect in mitochondrial biogenesis. There's all kinds of problems that happens during aging. By the way, they're all connected to each other. And when we think about aging and solving it, I think if you study it, you will realize how complicated the process is.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And that, you know, we at the Buck Institute, we have about 300 people working on aging. We don't take sides in a way that I cannot predict what's going to be more important. So we study pretty much every one of the hallmarks of aging. We obviously have a big emphasis on senescence because it was mostly discovered through the work of Jeanne Campisi at the back.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So many of us are still working on senescence, but we have people working on mitochondria. We have people working on stem cells with people working on metabolism and so on. So I think one of the things that is really emerging right now is the complexity.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
It's important because, you know, frankly, I have... I've sometimes been called the grumpy man of longevity research because I refuse the hype or work. I think there's a lot of really exciting things happening in aging research, but I'm not deluding myself. I don't tell people I'm going to live to 150 or 170 like some of my colleagues do.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
I think right now we are focusing on things that are really tangible. For example, you might be surprised to hear that most of us could live to 95 years old in good health. If only we would sort of deploy everything that we know. That's already a lot better than what we have today, where most of us would live to 65 in good health. So, you know, that's an extra 30 years of healthy life.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And right now we are really focused on two things at the back. We're on a basic biology of aging. Again, we don't take sides. We study all of these processes and how they relate to each other.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
The bigger aspect that is being grown at the Buck Institute is the whole human aspect, really taking all this basic knowledge and translating it into actionable interventions that I can tell you and other people, this is what you should be doing if you want to live the longest possible.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
I agree. Oh, wow. Okay.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
No, I do agree. So when I think about the buckets in which you should invest if you want to maximize your longevity... Nutrition is clearly one of the top ones. But equally important is exercise. But by the way, exercise or physical activity affects all of the same pathways that we just discussed. So most of the time, I sort of reduce this to the fact that we're dealing with energy generation.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And so if you think about exercise and nutrition have this in common, they are both profoundly dependent on your ability to generate a lot of energy and the proper energy. And there's one theory of aging that posits that one of the things that happens as we age is our ability to generate energy decreases. And since, for example, the repair function that we were discussing earlier,
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
our ability to repair DNA, to repair proteins, and so on, is also incredibly dependent on energy. So as energy supplies dwindle, our ability to make sufficient energy becomes limiting, then if you have the choice between repairing your DNA or actually walking, your body is going to favor the walking.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And so, so there's, there's, um, there are lots of common threads between all of these variables and, uh, I'm happy to dive into it.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Lots of drawers to open there. Yes. So when we think about energy, so let's backtrack. So, you know, we generate energy from essentially burning food in the presence of oxygen. Think about when you throw coals into a fire, if you blow air on it, you know, the fire will get more intense. So this is the same thing. We burn food.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
carbohydrates, lipids or fats and proteins in the presence of oxygen to generate energy. And this process takes place at many places in the cell, but predominantly in the mitochondria, which, by the way, are sort of commensal bacteria which have become incorporated into our cells. So this is something, a fusion that happens billions of years ago. Quite interesting biology.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So these mitochondria are generating the ATP that we use as energy and also the NAD, which we use as an intermediate form of energy. And we can come back to this later. Now, it turns out that mitochondria numbers dwindle with aging. And their ability to generate energy dwindles with aging. And there are multiple variables that are causing this. Some are mutations in the DNA.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So the mitochondria have their own DNA, which is an ancestral bacterial DNA. They accumulate mutations. Their numbers decrease. The NAD levels, which is this critical intermediate dwindles as well. All of these factors lead to a progressive and worsening energy deficit as we age.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So there's a lot of interest in trying to understand how do we reverse this and how do we prevent this from occurring at the first place.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Yeah, so as I mentioned, there's loss of mitochondrial number, there's loss of mitochondrial function, and there's loss of mitochondria key metabolites like NAD. And so I think when I think about what can you do, it ranges from lifestyle intervention all the way down to some of the drugs that we're actually working on.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So the two ways in which I think you can maximize your mitochondrial function as you age is fasting. And fasting, as I mentioned earlier, activates a process called autophagy, which means self-eating. And the beauty of autophagy
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
when you're fasting is that your body is able to sort through the garbage and the well-functioning mitochondria to discard the poorly functioning mitochondria and to keep the ones that are most efficient. So the process called mitophagy. So intermittent fasting, I think is part of the ability that your body has to shift between feeding and fasting is a process that we call metabolic flexibility.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And I think it is really an integral part of health So I encourage people to, you know, to incorporate this into their daily routine.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Well, yes, that's one way to do it, actually. And, you know, right now we're at the stage where there are a whole bunch of different fasting modalities have been developed. explored and tested. And I don't think there's clear evidence that any of them is more beneficial than another. Some people will do, you know, a deep fast every three months. Some people will do some fasting every day.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
I think there are, we're still at the stage where these different modalities are being compared and trying to decide what is the best way. But Any of them is better than none. That would be the rule that I would. Practically, for me, I do a five-day fast every three months.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And then I do sort of what people call restricted time feeding, which means I try not to eat for 12 to 16 hours every day so that I at least have a period of fasting. There are also a number of interesting supplements that are emerging that are supplements or drugs.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
The interest in fasting came out of the realization that animals on calorie restriction, so whose calorie intake was limited, actually showed increased lifespan. That's pretty much a universal feature. So that led to...
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
study of fasting but also led to the discovery of what we call these fasting mimicking or calorie restriction mimetics so drugs that are fooling your body into thinking that you are under calorie restriction or fasting and those drugs you know some of your artists are running around starving all the time Exactly, exactly.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So, you know, metformin, I'm sure you've heard about metformin or rapamycin or calorie restriction pneumatics. So they fool your body to think that you're fasting and they induce part or all of the protective response. And this is why some of these drugs are being explored for their potential anti-aging effect. Um, there are also supplements that are emerging.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
There's a, there's a process called mitochondrial biogenesis, which is the process by which you are making new mitochondria. And we know, you know, we know the pathways, the biological pathways that lead to this. Um, and, and some of them can be activated by drugs or supplements. Uh, a supplement, for example, that, uh, activates a mitochondrial function would be, um,
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
The urolithin A, I'm sure you've heard, a product sold by… I take it every day. Yeah, I take it every day too. And, you know, it's a supplement, so it's not going through the same process that an FDA-approved drug would be, but the company that…
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
you know, commercializes this called Timeline, has a very proactive approach to testing, you know, doing clinical trials and demonstrating the efficacy of what they are claiming. And we've collaborated with them, so I can attest to some of the results that we've published with them. So really interesting supplement.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And the last one, I mean, that I, you know, physical activity exercise is certainly a very strong way to activate mitochondrial function in your muscle. And we know, you know, your muscle mass is a very strong predictor of your life expectancy. So
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Anything that benefits your muscle, having strong mitochondria, bulk, frankly, also of your muscle will lead to protective effect on your brain and other organs as well. So obviously, you know, whenever we're talking about anything related to aging, the reductionist approach works for a while to try to simplify the models.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
But once you start thinking about anything, it's connected to everything else.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Thanks for having me, Mark. Delighted to be here with you and looking forward to the next hour.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Yeah, happy to talk about this because, frankly, once you are involved in the research and you see some of the stuff that's being sold, sometimes I shake my head in disbelief. But that being said, there's like in any story, there's always an element of truth to the whole NAD story. So just a word about NAD is a molecule that allows you to shuttle energy between different parts of the cell.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So this is a purely intracellular molecule. So this is not something that lives in the blood. And so this will be important because there's a whole fad right now of intravenous NAD, which frankly does not make any sense to me biologically. So NAD is an intracellular, and it doesn't cross from the blood into your cells. So it is an intracellular metabolite. Why is it important?
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Because it allows you to shuttle energy between different parts of the cells, from the mitochondria to the cytoplasm and so on, or from different molecules within the cell, more correctly. So it's also known that NAD levels decrease during aging, and that's really well established in humans and in animal models.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Out of this came the idea that maybe this is one of the reasons why we have this global energy deficit as we age. Maybe we're not able to manage. So when I think about NAD, you think about Brinkman, you know, the trucks that carry
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So think about if they all went on strike, all of a sudden, you know, the energy of the economy, which is money, would be stuck in the supermarket and nothing moves anymore. So this is the same thing. So I think about them as the fund carriers. So out of this came the idea, maybe we can just reestablish NAD levels. And so people will see a benefit. Yeah.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And in animal models, you can do this using what we call NAD precursors. And there are two of them that you're familiar with, nicotinamide riboside, NR, or nicotinamide mononucleotide, NMN. And both of them essentially do almost the same thing. Some colleagues will argue vociferously on whether one is superior to the other. At the end, they both reestablish NAD levels.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And we know that they are the driving forces of the aging process.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
They might have additional signaling properties in addition to this. And in animal models, they do remarkable things. So we've published... We and many other people in the field have published a number of papers showing that NAD supplementation in older animals really alleviates some of the effects of aging.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
It does not increase lifespan, I should say, but it certainly alleviates many of the disease complications and so on. So out of this came the interest, well, maybe we should bring this to humans. And a number of companies are selling NR and NMN. One significant issue is that the amounts that are being sold as supplements are much lower by a factor 10 of what we used in the laboratory setting.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
We used two to three grams.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Exactly. Wow. Of the precursors. Yes. We used a lot more. And those of us who take NMN or NR typically take a lot more than the 200 milligrams a day.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Well, I take a gram most of the time. Now, the obviously what we need is more clinical data in humans and uh a lot of noise has been made about a couple of initial studies that failed and you know and and that's you know that's true peter ti is highly skeptical and and there are you know there are really good reasons to be skeptical about some of the claims that have been made for nmn and nr
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
But I think my argument is let's not throw the baby with the bathwater. And there is enough compelling evidence in model systems that NMN and NR actually are having interesting effect to pursue the studies and to conduct the clinical trials. Now, one of the biggest problems I have is
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Why is asking the question, and it's something my lab has been working on, why are NAD levels decreasing during aging? And that really has not been studied by many people except us and Eduardo Cini, who was at Mayo Clinic.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And what we both found is that the reason why NAD levels decrease during aging is because there's another molecule called CD38, which is activated during aging for reasons that are not entirely clear, but in part because of a senescent cell burden. So the CD38 is itself as NAD hydrolase. It chews up NAD.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Exactly. So think about your NAD pool like water in a sink. The problem that we're having is a leaky sink. So there's something that's chewing up the NAD. And when you give NMN or NR, you're essentially filling up more water in a leaky sink. Which is not a very satisfying way to solve a problem.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So the way we are going about it, and a growing number of companies are doing this as well, is to actually identify small molecule inhibitors of CD38. And so I have a startup called Napa Therapeutics, which has a large number of these novel molecules. We're testing them.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Some of them, some of these inhibitors are not ours, but others have been shown to increase lifespan and to correct some of the aging associated energy deficits. much more sort of efficiently than the precursors.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So my prediction is that if you think about NAD defect in the future, in the long run, we probably will be looking for these CD38 inhibitors rather than filling up the tank with more water.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
You got it. You got it. And, you know, one reason for doing this is And this speaks also to the importance. A lot of people are taking a lot of supplements these days and they're not being followed appropriately by physician.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
As I was taking a lot of NMN, I was always concerned because we know that NMN as it's being, if you take a large amount of it, will consume your one carbon, your methyl groups. As I was doing this, I was always following my homocysteine levels. Actually, I found it to rise significantly in the presence of a large amount of NMN intake. If it goes too high, I stop my NMN for a while.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
You're speaking to the fact that all of these processes are connected. And I'm somewhat worried about, you know, the proliferation of supplements that are being touted and sold to some somewhat naive public hoping, you know, this is going to increase my lifespan. There are a lot of, you know, there are very few molecules that have absolutely no consequence. And I think
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
if you're going to go down this route, do it with someone that knows, understands the biochemistry and can follow you appropriately.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Yes. A typical NAD infusion costs about $700. There are studies showing what happens when you inject NAD intravenously. It goes to your liver and it is cleaved into nicotinamides and ADP ribose. Now, the nicotinamide is essentially niacin. You can buy this for 20 cents or whatever. So this $700 injection, I really have no idea. Actually, no one has any idea what happens to it.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Most of it is likely very quickly degraded.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Well, niacin, as you know, will activate these flushing receptors. This was one of the limiting use of niacin as a drug. But cholesterol lowering a few decades ago, people had some flushing issues. It's the same thing that you're feeling when you're taking intravenous nicotinamides.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
That's a good question, actually. And the way I think about it, and it's true, this is something that's relatively recent, about 25% 30 years ago, aging was considered sort of the backwaters of biology. This was an area that you did not go there because it was considered too messy.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
That's the prediction. And that's what we... Although, you know, there's evidence that CD38 inhibition or deletion actually increases lifespan. So that might be one way to put back this whole pathway in the context of longevity.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
It's a tough one. I tell people, you know, if you want to- In five minutes or less. Okay, so I'll start first. I think before taking any supplement, I think people should optimize the rest of their lifespan because there's nothing, you know, if you have a wound that's infected with a bacteria, you don't put a Band-Aid on it.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Very few people do this. So the next step would be to have, once you've optimized all of this the best you can, and I think about them as buckets. And I agree with you, by the way. Because a lot of people will go to supplements, they don't want to do any of the other things, and they're missing the really powerful stuff. The reason I'm making this point so strongly is that
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
we do not have and will not have for the next 20 years an anti-aging medicine or supplement that is better than physical activity. And mark my words, for 20 years, in 20 years, we will still not have something that works as well as physical activity.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Bad for your career, exactly. Well, people used to think about aging as chaos. So think about if you have a little bit of a background in physics, entropy. So aging is the accumulation of disorder. And that disorder is caused by a whole series of external forces over which we have essentially no control. Think about gravity. Think about the gamma rays coming from interstellar radiation.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
It is a miracle drug. And so if you are sort of not paying attention to that one, well, you can sort of put a Band-Aid on some issues, but never to get to the core problems. Now, thinking about the rest... First for me is blood draw. Are you balanced in terms of vitamin D, vitamin B12? This would be the first big ones.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And I'm surprised how many people tell me, friends and colleagues, no, I don't know what my vitamin D is. So that's number one.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Exactly. Also, I don't know if you're measuring this, but your omega fatty acid levels.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Critical. So, you know, there are a few supplements that have documented efficacy. One of them is omega fatty acids. And especially if you are like most people in the Western world and you don't have access to enough of them. So omega fatty acid would be one of the top ones for me, for everyone to take every morning and every night.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
If you're exercising, carnitine is really one of the well-recognized supplements that people take. Now, we talked about a whole variety of flavonoids, quercetin, curcumin, fitzetin, all of those. The problem with many of those is bioavailability. So much of what has been shown about their efficacy is based on studies where the chemicals are added directly to cell.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
The problem is, you know, before the chemicals get to your cells, they have to go through the gut and have to be absorbed and all this. Most of those have extremely low bioavailability. Now, some companies are trying to remedy this by making them into phytosomes and all this. But most of the time, the data is just not there that these things are getting absorbed to a significant level.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So I have my doubts.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Yeah, it just goes through. So there are, you know, for example, one thing you didn't talk about, which I think is really critical, is fiber and probiotic, which I think for me, you know, I'm a fervent believer in the whole gut health thing. being a critical determinant of your health and brain function.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And so optimizing your bacteria in your gut, not by eating the bacteria, but by eating the fibers that feed them is really a critical part. So I have a special concoction of probiotics that I make myself. And I think that to me is really one of the central components of having a healthy digestive system, which will determine your immune system and so on.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
As I told you earlier, I believe in urolithin A. That's one of the few well-documented supplements that has been shown to have an increase, an effect on your VO2 max, on other immune function. We published on the effect on immune function. I don't know. Any other ones? I forgot the list of all the compounds that you mentioned. One thing that I want to mention also is
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Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
is the whole concept of, as a physician, you know about polypharmacy. The idea of polypharmacy, well, people, you know, polypharmacy is the idea that once you start, you start with one compound, you have a series of positive effect, but you also have a series of side effects.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
The idea of polypharmacy is when you start adding things on top of each other, you generate responses that are unpredictable and not always beneficial. And I do worry about the tendency in the field of what people call stacks, you know, where you're taking 5, 10, 20 supplements together and hoping that all of this magically is going to work together.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Think about UV. Think about oxygen stress. All of these forces are there, and they're always going to be with us. And we know that they are the driving forces of the aging process. What people had not appreciated is the degree to which we actually resist these forces. And this is where the potential is.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
I can tell you one experiment that some colleagues have done in the lab. So in C. elegans, the little worm that we studied, we can identify readily small molecules that increase the lifespan. So this experiment was done, it generated to a whole series of molecules that increase lifespan. So let's say we have 10 compounds that all increase lifespan. So what they did then, okay,
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Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
combine each of these 10 compounds pairwise. And what you find is they were actually able to identify a number of pairs that actually had synergistic effect where the lifespan effect was bigger than the sum of the two drugs. So very exciting. So then they took these pairs and then screened again the whole library to see, okay, what can we add?
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And what they found is that when you actually, so they have these pairs with two drugs that increases lifespan. Whenever they added another drug that also increased lifespan, all of the effects went away. So that's not good.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
You know, I hear about Brian Johnson taking 120 supplements, and I'm thinking, you know, it cannot be good what's happening, this mixture of all of these drugs, you know, all of this byproduct. I don't know. It just worries me in general. And I tell people, you know, so how do you solve this problem? One way would be to do sequencing.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So you would go, for example, for three months on this compound and then another three months on this other compound. So I think we are right at the beginning of a new land that we do not understand.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, the whole area that we are pursuing is the whole idea of phenomics. This is the idea of deploying to the clinic these tests that allows us to measure tens of thousands of variables instead of a hundred. And so the back right now, you know, has a whole program with Lee Hood and Nathan Price called Phenomics, which...
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Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
is really going to the next frontier in terms of measuring. You know, typical medicine, as you mentioned, relies on 100, 200. Not even. Not even.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Exactly. And if you take all of the tests that medicine can today conduct, maybe it's 100 or 200, you know, in one of these samples, we can measure 5,000 proteins, and we can measure 10,000 metabolites, and we can measure, you know, 10,000 transcripts, and 20 million CPG sites.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So really the idea is now to use artificial intelligence and these deep phenotyping essays and try to extract all of the information that we can get on how do these drugs work, what pathways are they activating. This is the next frontier. And I think, yeah, we're tremendously excited by this.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So think about, you know, we're not going to change the fact that we're living in oxygen or that there is gravity and gamma rays surrounding us. But what had not been appreciated is the degree to which we resist these forces. For example, if you're lacking DNA damage repair, which is one of the consequences of gamma irradiation or UV irradiation,
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
It's not for direct consumption for the public, but it's important for people to know that this is where medicine is going. It's ramping up to a next stage of data gathering and processing.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
That's the whole philosophy that I tell people. The reason why you should optimize your health plan today using everything that we know is that, first, there's 35 years of extra healthy life for you to be gathered using this. 30 years from now, God knows where we will be in terms of our ability to interfere in these pathways and to keep you healthy even longer.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So the key is, while we're working at gathering all of this data and defining what are the safest and most effective solutions, lifestyle changes or drug and so on, just keep yourself healthy and you will reap the benefits now and in the future.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
you're going to live to about 20 years old and you're going to show in those 20 years a very accelerated form of aging. And so what people had not appreciated, again, is this idea of all of these repair mechanisms and how we can actually activate them. So what happened about 20, 25, 30 years ago is the identification of a whole series of mutations that could actually increase lifespan.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And so this ran counter to everything we had ever thought about biology. People thought about mutation that's typically deleterious. You get a mutation, you get a disease. And here were a number of mutations that were identified in animal models, in C. elegans, the little worm that we study, or in fruit flies or in mice, they could actually double your life expectancy.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
So that really put the whole world of aging up on its head and highlighted the potential of identifying novel interventions, including lifestyle or drugs, that could actually significantly increase lifespan. Initially, of course, these findings were met with a lot of resistance. People thought, well, this is an exception. This is only applying to sea elegans or to fruit flies or mice.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
But over the last 20 years, the work has really shown that there are a large number of genes and proteins that you could target and interfere with that will result in an increase in lifespan and healthspan. And we are right now at a stage where this is slowly percolating into humans.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And I predict the next 10 to 20 years are going to be transformative in our ability to bring all of this basic knowledge on the biology of aging to humans.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Yes, it is. You're completely right. This is a really exciting time. As a physician, and by training, I went to medical school, even though I did most of my career in research, I've always, you know, once a physician, always a physician. So I've always been intrigued by the relevance of what we're studying in these animal models to humans.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And it is truly an exciting time, this idea that something that we've always thought was ineluctable and over which we had little control. is becoming another tractable problem. The excitement that you see in the field is a reflection of this. One number that I like to remind people of is when we think about our own longevity, many of us have a fatalistic approach to it.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
We think, my parents didn't live very old and therefore, I might as well have another cigarette, another glass of wine. enjoy life while it's there. But it turns out that, you know, about 93% of our longevity is determined by our lifestyle factors.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Well, that's the result of a great study by Calico. Looking at ancestry.com, they were able to sort of revise a number which used to be about 80%. People used to think about 80% of lifestyle was determined by was determining healthspan and lifespan. But the number they came up based on millions of people and records appears to be 93% lifestyle, 7% genetics.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
That's true only if you, and the only exception to this is if you have an ancestor, someone in your first degree relative who has lived above 100. Then there's some likely genetic factors. most likely protect it. And you can have another cigarette.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
You're one of the lucky ones.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
Probably more than me. I'm E3, E3, which is already good. That's average.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
The whole idea of biomarkers of aging is going to be critical. Here's the reason. We go through life right now hoping that things are going to work out for the best. Traditional medicine essentially waits for you to get sick, to really start intervening.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
there there is a need a crying need for what we call surrogate markers markers that would be able to predict you know how well are you aging and when we talk about biological aging or biological age this is in contrast to chronological age so just for your audience you you can be 40 years old but you your body can be behaving more like the body of a typical 30 year old or like the body of a typical 50 year old that would be your biological age
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And by the way, we are also able to generate an estimate of biological age. If you've met someone who's 70 years old and you think that person looks younger, you have defined in your own head that this person is biologically younger. And this, by the way, these are true statistics. variables.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
There are actually algorithms that will predict your age simply based on facial recognition, just like we do. And so there's been a lot of interest in the field of generating more precise and more predictive biomarkers of biological age. The reason being not just to be able to tell you where you are on your trajectory, but also to assess the efficacy of our interventions.
The Dr. Hyman Show
Reverse Aging Now: The Latest Longevity Breakthroughs | Dr. Eric Verdin
And you just described your end of one, which is critical, which is, okay, you start a whole series of interventions. How do you know you're actually helping yourself versus hurting yourself? And so this is where these clocks are coming into play. Now, we are right at the beginning of a whole field. So I did the same thing as you did. True Diagnostic, I don't have any affiliation with them.