Dr. Martha Beck

Beautiful. So just look around, smell the pine, aspen air, and then you go into your perfect bathroom, and it's beautiful. You could go through a lot of description if you wanted to, but I'm going to rush through that to get to the interesting parts. So you take a look at yourself in the mirror. Your body is beautiful. absolutely perfect. Of course, in your case, that's not an aspirational thing.

Beautiful. So just look around, smell the pine, aspen air, and then you go into your perfect bathroom, and it's beautiful. You could go through a lot of description if you wanted to, but I'm going to rush through that to get to the interesting parts. So you take a look at yourself in the mirror. Your body is beautiful. absolutely perfect. Of course, in your case, that's not an aspirational thing.

You're already there. But make it even better.

You're already there. But make it even better.

There's a real clarity. I've seen it. I don't know if you've worked with people who are dying or who are really ill. Sometimes you'll see a shift in the transparency of their eyes. There actually seems to be a radiance coming from the eyes or gathered around the eyes. That's what I'm sort of thinking as you talk.

There's a real clarity. I've seen it. I don't know if you've worked with people who are dying or who are really ill. Sometimes you'll see a shift in the transparency of their eyes. There actually seems to be a radiance coming from the eyes or gathered around the eyes. That's what I'm sort of thinking as you talk.

This is so interesting because my friend Liz Gilbert of Eat, Pray, Love fame, she wrote something before she was famous where she dressed as a man for a week and walked around. And she's tall and broad-shouldered and has, you know, great chin. So she could look male. And she got herself all dressed up male and they faked a beard and everything.

This is so interesting because my friend Liz Gilbert of Eat, Pray, Love fame, she wrote something before she was famous where she dressed as a man for a week and walked around. And she's tall and broad-shouldered and has, you know, great chin. So she could look male. And she got herself all dressed up male and they faked a beard and everything.

And then she had her friends come and a male friend said to her, no, Liz – Pull yourself back six inches away from your own eyes. And she did it. And he said, now you're looking like a man.

And then she had her friends come and a male friend said to her, no, Liz – Pull yourself back six inches away from your own eyes. And she did it. And he said, now you're looking like a man.

And that's really, really interesting that you would say that exact distance.

And that's really, really interesting that you would say that exact distance.

I have an N of two, you and Liz Gilbert. Okay, all right. But I think it's very interesting that you said that, that you're forward and your eyes, and the idea that the eyes are the parts of our brains that are showing. It's fascinating that she had that experience, too.

I have an N of two, you and Liz Gilbert. Okay, all right. But I think it's very interesting that you said that, that you're forward and your eyes, and the idea that the eyes are the parts of our brains that are showing. It's fascinating that she had that experience, too.

So I would love to—I'll be asking people from now on, if you're designated male, identified male, do you feel you have to pull your— sort of vitality back from the world. And I suspect it's true. I suspect it's true just from interacting with people.

So I would love to—I'll be asking people from now on, if you're designated male, identified male, do you feel you have to pull your— sort of vitality back from the world. And I suspect it's true. I suspect it's true just from interacting with people.

ask women if they... I think it's more vulnerable to be right on the surface of your life and in the surface of your eyes, but it's also much more... There's a sensuousness to the world when you're fully present that I know I had to shut down like when I was in the Ivy League. I had to pull myself back and sink down, and that's a typically male environment. I think it's about materialism and

ask women if they... I think it's more vulnerable to be right on the surface of your life and in the surface of your eyes, but it's also much more... There's a sensuousness to the world when you're fully present that I know I had to shut down like when I was in the Ivy League. I had to pull myself back and sink down, and that's a typically male environment. I think it's about materialism and

conquest and oppositional thinking as much as gender.

conquest and oppositional thinking as much as gender.

Yes.

Yes.

You just did it. Yeah. I know how to do this. It's like visible.

You just did it. Yeah. I know how to do this. It's like visible.

That was so interesting that you just did that. Wow. Okay. The problem I'm having now is that I have, and I quote, an interest-based attention system. I love that. ADHD, which means I pay attention to things that interest me, which means that I literally follow squirrels away from business meetings.

That was so interesting that you just did that. Wow. Okay. The problem I'm having now is that I have, and I quote, an interest-based attention system. I love that. ADHD, which means I pay attention to things that interest me, which means that I literally follow squirrels away from business meetings.

Okay.

Okay.

And now you go to your closet and you're going to get dressed. Open your closet, which is the closet of clothing you have in your ideal life, and just look at the different outfits you have. The different, like how many kinds of shoes are there?

And now you go to your closet and you're going to get dressed. Open your closet, which is the closet of clothing you have in your ideal life, and just look at the different outfits you have. The different, like how many kinds of shoes are there?

Oh, sweet. So whose photographs are there? Do you see any photographs you don't recognize at this moment?

Oh, sweet. So whose photographs are there? Do you see any photographs you don't recognize at this moment?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so then you go through the whole day, and I can spend at least an hour going through this with someone. And the important thing is that you do something I call the three Ns. You notice what comes into the field of your imagination, but you don't try too hard to see it specifically. And then as you go through, you sort of narrow down what it might be.

Okay, so then you go through the whole day, and I can spend at least an hour going through this with someone. And the important thing is that you do something I call the three Ns. You notice what comes into the field of your imagination, but you don't try too hard to see it specifically. And then as you go through, you sort of narrow down what it might be.

And if the name of that thing comes up, you can then name it. But, for example, in one of my ideal days, I was writing short – pieces of writing that I was interacting with people very regularly about it. And I couldn't even imagine what kind of job that was. And then an editor in Manhattan knocked over a manuscript I'd written. And she was the editor of a women's magazine.

And if the name of that thing comes up, you can then name it. But, for example, in one of my ideal days, I was writing short – pieces of writing that I was interacting with people very regularly about it. And I couldn't even imagine what kind of job that was. And then an editor in Manhattan knocked over a manuscript I'd written. And she was the editor of a women's magazine.

And she called me and asked me to be a columnist. I was like, I was always a magazine columnist for like 20 years. And it was exactly what was in The Ideal Day, but I had not named it. I didn't know that you could live in Phoenix and be a columnist for New York magazines. So notice what you're doing.

And she called me and asked me to be a columnist. I was like, I was always a magazine columnist for like 20 years. And it was exactly what was in The Ideal Day, but I had not named it. I didn't know that you could live in Phoenix and be a columnist for New York magazines. So notice what you're doing.

You put on your very comfy T-shirt, very cool black jeans, your one watch, your belt, your Adidas shirt. And you go do something really fun with people you really love in a place you really enjoy.

You put on your very comfy T-shirt, very cool black jeans, your one watch, your belt, your Adidas shirt. And you go do something really fun with people you really love in a place you really enjoy.

Oh, yeah. See, now I skipped a thing. You're supposed to go down to breakfast and see if you've got a family.

Oh, yeah. See, now I skipped a thing. You're supposed to go down to breakfast and see if you've got a family.

Wonderful.

Wonderful.

My interest-based attention system just went, oh, really? You do it for other people? Oh yeah.

My interest-based attention system just went, oh, really? You do it for other people? Oh yeah.

So your kids are helping you. How many kids are there?

So your kids are helping you. How many kids are there?

No. In your imagination. You can have 20 if you want.

No. In your imagination. You can have 20 if you want.

You never know. It could happen. The important thing about this exercise is you don't get logical about it. You don't think what's manageable and what's probable. And you just see who's there.

You never know. It could happen. The important thing about this exercise is you don't get logical about it. You don't think what's manageable and what's probable. And you just see who's there.

All right.

All right.

It's not crazy. This is wonderful.

It's not crazy. This is wonderful.

Fabulous. So you're very, very close to your ideal day right now. And as you said, I don't know the mechanisms that get put in play. Certainly directed attention. You're now like a guided missile that knows where its target is, or at least what the target looks like. And we all make countless decisions every day. And you can think of it as a lot of little whys branching out.

Fabulous. So you're very, very close to your ideal day right now. And as you said, I don't know the mechanisms that get put in play. Certainly directed attention. You're now like a guided missile that knows where its target is, or at least what the target looks like. And we all make countless decisions every day. And you can think of it as a lot of little whys branching out.

And if you've got this in your mind really clearly, you're going to take the option that leads to it. That's what I tell people. It's logical, directed attention, except that in many cases, I have to say, a miracle occurs. My favorite cartoon is this physics equation with these two physicists, and there are all these symbols on both sides of the board.

And if you've got this in your mind really clearly, you're going to take the option that leads to it. That's what I tell people. It's logical, directed attention, except that in many cases, I have to say, a miracle occurs. My favorite cartoon is this physics equation with these two physicists, and there are all these symbols on both sides of the board.

In the middle in brackets, it says, a miracle occurs. I love it.

In the middle in brackets, it says, a miracle occurs. I love it.

Yeah. And I really believe the source of all my work, you know, I was getting my doctorate at Harvard. I'd gotten my bachelor's there. I'd been there since I was 17. And halfway through my doctorate, during that time, I'd gotten married, had a child. My second child was prenatally diagnosed with Down syndrome. And I was six months into the pregnancy almost. And I had like two weeks left.

Yeah. And I really believe the source of all my work, you know, I was getting my doctorate at Harvard. I'd gotten my bachelor's there. I'd been there since I was 17. And halfway through my doctorate, during that time, I'd gotten married, had a child. My second child was prenatally diagnosed with Down syndrome. And I was six months into the pregnancy almost. And I had like two weeks left.

to make a decision, and I'm politically very pro-choice, and I would, again, never judge anyone who made the other decision, but I couldn't do it. I was already sort of bonded to him. And I kept asking the question of myself, what makes a human life worth living?

to make a decision, and I'm politically very pro-choice, and I would, again, never judge anyone who made the other decision, but I couldn't do it. I was already sort of bonded to him. And I kept asking the question of myself, what makes a human life worth living?

Because the doctors at the Harvard Medical Clinic and all my advisors told me, you have got to, at the very least, institutionalize this child the second he's born. Institutionalize? Oh, yeah, for sure. They said, you're throwing your career away. The head of the obstetrics committee, there were five obstetricians, and the chief dude—

Because the doctors at the Harvard Medical Clinic and all my advisors told me, you have got to, at the very least, institutionalize this child the second he's born. Institutionalize? Oh, yeah, for sure. They said, you're throwing your career away. The head of the obstetrics committee, there were five obstetricians, and the chief dude—

came in, and there I was sitting on a bed in my little hospital napkin, and he said, this is like a cancerous tumor. You've got to let us take it out. It will ruin your life. And I just looked at him, and I had the weirdest experience ever. I looked at this very intimidating guy, and I'm there sort of young and naked and pregnant, and... suddenly it was like I could see two faces on him.

came in, and there I was sitting on a bed in my little hospital napkin, and he said, this is like a cancerous tumor. You've got to let us take it out. It will ruin your life. And I just looked at him, and I had the weirdest experience ever. I looked at this very intimidating guy, and I'm there sort of young and naked and pregnant, and... suddenly it was like I could see two faces on him.

And one was this very stern, knowledgeable doctor, and the other one was a terrified child, terrified. And it was so striking that I started looking at him strangely. I'm sure he thought I was completely nuts. But I looked at him and I thought, you're afraid. You're afraid of this baby.

And one was this very stern, knowledgeable doctor, and the other one was a terrified child, terrified. And it was so striking that I started looking at him strangely. I'm sure he thought I was completely nuts. But I looked at him and I thought, you're afraid. You're afraid of this baby.

And I realized – that's when I realized that a lot of people don't go to Harvard because they know they're smart. They go there because they're afraid they're stupid.

And I realized – that's when I realized that a lot of people don't go to Harvard because they know they're smart. They go there because they're afraid they're stupid.

And I thought he's afraid of the – in quotes, stupid little boy inside me because he's afraid of the stupid little boy inside him. He's terrified of being the person he's worked so hard not to be. He's afraid of being like my son. And he thinks that should be thrown away. And that was the point at which I said, I will not make my decisions based on social pressure.

And I thought he's afraid of the – in quotes, stupid little boy inside me because he's afraid of the stupid little boy inside him. He's terrified of being the person he's worked so hard not to be. He's afraid of being like my son. And he thinks that should be thrown away. And that was the point at which I said, I will not make my decisions based on social pressure.

I have to do something from a very, very deep place within. And so I kept that. I mean, he's home right now. You know, we're having a great time.

I have to do something from a very, very deep place within. And so I kept that. I mean, he's home right now. You know, we're having a great time.

Adam, my son Adam.

Adam, my son Adam.

Yes, the very first thing he ever did in his life was the doctor pulled him out of my body and I saw this arc of urine go straight into the doctor's face. And I was like so proud of my child at that moment. I thought if only I'd thought to do that.

Yes, the very first thing he ever did in his life was the doctor pulled him out of my body and I saw this arc of urine go straight into the doctor's face. And I was like so proud of my child at that moment. I thought if only I'd thought to do that.

That's why I told that long story that when I had to make that decision, it was the first time I had dropped everything conscious and logical from my mind and come from a place that was, I believe it's part of our neurological apparatus, but the cognitive structures are so, cognitive function is just a tiny fraction of what our whole nervous systems are able to detect and tell us.

That's why I told that long story that when I had to make that decision, it was the first time I had dropped everything conscious and logical from my mind and come from a place that was, I believe it's part of our neurological apparatus, but the cognitive structures are so, cognitive function is just a tiny fraction of what our whole nervous systems are able to detect and tell us.

And for the first time, I was making a decision from every cell in my body instead of just my, you know, neocortex. And I realized my life is not meant to go like his life. And the person in the next bed, their life isn't meant to be like mine. But we all have this... programmed into us somehow.

And for the first time, I was making a decision from every cell in my body instead of just my, you know, neocortex. And I realized my life is not meant to go like his life. And the person in the next bed, their life isn't meant to be like mine. But we all have this... programmed into us somehow.

And when we start to leave it, in my last book, I called it leaving our integrity, because to be an integrity just means to be one thing. It doesn't have any moral implications in the original, like Latin, it just means integer, one thing. So if we were born knowing who we are,

And when we start to leave it, in my last book, I called it leaving our integrity, because to be an integrity just means to be one thing. It doesn't have any moral implications in the original, like Latin, it just means integer, one thing. So if we were born knowing who we are,

But at some point, usually not long after birth, we get socialized away from expressing exactly what our own truth is telling us. We get socialized to behave in ways that please other people. Very simple. And as you're describing it, I had a great life. I had a lab, I had a dog, I had a house. Those are all socially recognized items that say your life is working.

But at some point, usually not long after birth, we get socialized away from expressing exactly what our own truth is telling us. We get socialized to behave in ways that please other people. Very simple. And as you're describing it, I had a great life. I had a lab, I had a dog, I had a house. Those are all socially recognized items that say your life is working.

but they have nothing to do with your personal destiny.

but they have nothing to do with your personal destiny.

I would say you don't even have to go back and forth. You can do it all at once. You can feel, you can think, and you can stay in the driver's seat and not be overwhelmed, either intellectually or emotionally. But I think it has a lot to do with, you were talking about Asian, Eastern, like meditation practices.

I would say you don't even have to go back and forth. You can do it all at once. You can feel, you can think, and you can stay in the driver's seat and not be overwhelmed, either intellectually or emotionally. But I think it has a lot to do with, you were talking about Asian, Eastern, like meditation practices.

There's a little exercise I like to do with people where if they're struggling with a bad habit, I say, imagine the part of you that is always doing the bad thing, like smoking 20 packs a day or whatever. Imagine them as a wild thing in your left hand. And then imagine the part of you that hates them and says, stop smoking in your right hand and look at them and say,

There's a little exercise I like to do with people where if they're struggling with a bad habit, I say, imagine the part of you that is always doing the bad thing, like smoking 20 packs a day or whatever. Imagine them as a wild thing in your left hand. And then imagine the part of you that hates them and says, stop smoking in your right hand and look at them and say,

begin to see that they're both well-meaning, they're both exhausted, and you can wish them both well. So the wild child part is not thinking, it's just feeling. The controlling part is not feeling, it's just thinking. And if I can get people, and I have them put their hands out because I know it's going to activate both sides of their brains, and then I have them wish these people well.

begin to see that they're both well-meaning, they're both exhausted, and you can wish them both well. So the wild child part is not thinking, it's just feeling. The controlling part is not feeling, it's just thinking. And if I can get people, and I have them put their hands out because I know it's going to activate both sides of their brains, and then I have them wish these people well.

May you be well, may you be happy. When they can feel compassion from both sides of themselves, then I ask them, so who are you? And who they've become is a compassionate witness. which is not thinking and it's not feeling in the way we, it's not emotional. The word emotion means movement, disturbance. This part of one's being is not ever disturbed or moved.

May you be well, may you be happy. When they can feel compassion from both sides of themselves, then I ask them, so who are you? And who they've become is a compassionate witness. which is not thinking and it's not feeling in the way we, it's not emotional. The word emotion means movement, disturbance. This part of one's being is not ever disturbed or moved.

It's totally still and totally peaceful and completely compassionate.

It's totally still and totally peaceful and completely compassionate.

Yes, it is. And Dick Schwartz, who came up with the model of internal family systems theory, I don't know if you've had him on the show.

Yes, it is. And Dick Schwartz, who came up with the model of internal family systems theory, I don't know if you've had him on the show.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, Richard Schwartz. Anyway, I was talking to him and he said, there is this part, we all have different parts. There's a part of you that feels like a little kid and wants to curl up in bed. There's a part of you that wants to go rule the world, whatever your parts are. So he talks to people about these different parts.

Yeah, Richard Schwartz. Anyway, I was talking to him and he said, there is this part, we all have different parts. There's a part of you that feels like a little kid and wants to curl up in bed. There's a part of you that wants to go rule the world, whatever your parts are. So he talks to people about these different parts.

And then sometimes they say, oh, I've just come up against, there's someone here who's very still, who's very huge, who's very kind. And he calls it self with a capital S. And he says after thousands of patients, he'll say, what part of you is that? And they say, oh, this isn't a part like the others. This is who I am. This is who I am. And he believes that it's just one unified self.

And then sometimes they say, oh, I've just come up against, there's someone here who's very still, who's very huge, who's very kind. And he calls it self with a capital S. And he says after thousands of patients, he'll say, what part of you is that? And they say, oh, this isn't a part like the others. This is who I am. This is who I am. And he believes that it's just one unified self.

And for me, if I don't. find and lock into that self, I am immediately swept away by my emotions in my brain, just like in a gale force winds. So I have to be very, not grounded, but centered and identified with this self before I can even leave the house.

And for me, if I don't. find and lock into that self, I am immediately swept away by my emotions in my brain, just like in a gale force winds. So I have to be very, not grounded, but centered and identified with this self before I can even leave the house.

It's like junk food. It tastes delicious, but then you feel like that.

It's like junk food. It tastes delicious, but then you feel like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I do. And it's called suffering. It's very reliable. That made me laugh. Forgive me. My best friend, suffering. I have a deeply love-hate relationship with suffering. If I'm, for example, I can barely look at Instagram because I will watch Instagram. A monkey nursing a kitten. And then I will be down that rabbit hole so far.

I do. And it's called suffering. It's very reliable. That made me laugh. Forgive me. My best friend, suffering. I have a deeply love-hate relationship with suffering. If I'm, for example, I can barely look at Instagram because I will watch Instagram. A monkey nursing a kitten. And then I will be down that rabbit hole so far.

And eight hours later, I'm bleh. But I will start to suffer. I will start to physically feel cramped. My eyes will start to hurt and water. And I will start to feel what you were saying, the grinding of the gear that is wrong. The machine isn't, it's not in structural integrity. It's like when your car starts making a funny sound and you're like, I should not ignore that.

And eight hours later, I'm bleh. But I will start to suffer. I will start to physically feel cramped. My eyes will start to hurt and water. And I will start to feel what you were saying, the grinding of the gear that is wrong. The machine isn't, it's not in structural integrity. It's like when your car starts making a funny sound and you're like, I should not ignore that.

And it always feels like discomfort. Tension, anxiety, anger, any of those things. And then the practice of my life is to notice those sensations at a finer and more granular level so that the moment I'm off true, I can stop and say, okay, whew, out of integrity, okay. Now I'm into anxiety because a divided person is always anxious. So to get away from that, from anxiety and back to true,

And it always feels like discomfort. Tension, anxiety, anger, any of those things. And then the practice of my life is to notice those sensations at a finer and more granular level so that the moment I'm off true, I can stop and say, okay, whew, out of integrity, okay. Now I'm into anxiety because a divided person is always anxious. So to get away from that, from anxiety and back to true,

I use the body, sit back, straighten my spine, take a deep breath, do all the things that I'm sure you do when you meditate. And then I sink into that part of myself that I was just trying to pull up for people with the two hands exercise.

I use the body, sit back, straighten my spine, take a deep breath, do all the things that I'm sure you do when you meditate. And then I sink into that part of myself that I was just trying to pull up for people with the two hands exercise.

And I believe, you could probably tell me the truth of this, I believe that I've wired a pretty strong superhighway in my brain that goes, oops, suffering, find self with a capital S. And I've done it so many thousands of times that I think I have like a highly myelinated circuit that just goes there, shoop. And then no matter what's happening, I can usually just find it, feel it.

And I believe, you could probably tell me the truth of this, I believe that I've wired a pretty strong superhighway in my brain that goes, oops, suffering, find self with a capital S. And I've done it so many thousands of times that I think I have like a highly myelinated circuit that just goes there, shoop. And then no matter what's happening, I can usually just find it, feel it.

And it's an exquisite sensation. It's like coming home completely over and over again. And now when I do an ideal day, everything else is incidental. The key is I'm in that self.

And it's an exquisite sensation. It's like coming home completely over and over again. And now when I do an ideal day, everything else is incidental. The key is I'm in that self.

Yes.

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

You pay attention to it. And here is the key thing. This is in my new book. I kept this a secret because it sounded so silly. And I thought this would never go in the Ivy League. But there's something I call KIST, K-I-S-T, and it stands for kind internal self-talk. So what do you call yourself when you think to yourself? Andrew, Andy, what do you call yourself?

You pay attention to it. And here is the key thing. This is in my new book. I kept this a secret because it sounded so silly. And I thought this would never go in the Ivy League. But there's something I call KIST, K-I-S-T, and it stands for kind internal self-talk. So what do you call yourself when you think to yourself? Andrew, Andy, what do you call yourself?

So you'd be sitting there and you don't feel good. You don't feel right. The first thing you do is allow yourself to register every sensation without pushing back, without restricting it. People talk to me about bringing down their anxiety. And I say, how do you feel if I told you I was going to bring you down? That's not a nice thing to say.

So you'd be sitting there and you don't feel good. You don't feel right. The first thing you do is allow yourself to register every sensation without pushing back, without restricting it. People talk to me about bringing down their anxiety. And I say, how do you feel if I told you I was going to bring you down? That's not a nice thing to say.

If I told you I'm here to understand you and care about you, better. So just allow yourself to feel all the suffering and then start saying kind things to the one who is suffering, even if it's just tiny suffering. Just go, how are you? How are you doing? Not great? Ah, okay, so there's some anxiety. Oh, your sinuses are blocked too. Let's see, what could we do for you?

If I told you I'm here to understand you and care about you, better. So just allow yourself to feel all the suffering and then start saying kind things to the one who is suffering, even if it's just tiny suffering. Just go, how are you? How are you doing? Not great? Ah, okay, so there's some anxiety. Oh, your sinuses are blocked too. Let's see, what could we do for you?

Let's get you a hot drink and like a call with a good friend or a book or something. And you just actively work as your own caregiver from the moment you are conscious in the morning. And what that does is it makes you so compassionate to other people because you're not fighting the suffering in yourself. Right.

Let's get you a hot drink and like a call with a good friend or a book or something. And you just actively work as your own caregiver from the moment you are conscious in the morning. And what that does is it makes you so compassionate to other people because you're not fighting the suffering in yourself. Right.

Right. I'm like, I've got some inner adults here who aren't very happy too, you know?

Right. I'm like, I've got some inner adults here who aren't very happy too, you know?

That obstetrician at Harvard, I would bet my last dime that he was still working on the same circuits he used when he was five. And they were pretty scary, you know? So, yeah, we all have... multiple causes of suffering, but we also have, I wouldn't actually call it interparenting because that basically implies that only parents give that to children. And I think it's just humaning.

That obstetrician at Harvard, I would bet my last dime that he was still working on the same circuits he used when he was five. And they were pretty scary, you know? So, yeah, we all have... multiple causes of suffering, but we also have, I wouldn't actually call it interparenting because that basically implies that only parents give that to children. And I think it's just humaning.

If you are truly humane, if you are truly in a state of self with a capital S, there is nothing in you that wants to cause suffering for any other being. And there's nothing in you that doesn't want to help. ease the suffering of the entire world.

If you are truly humane, if you are truly in a state of self with a capital S, there is nothing in you that wants to cause suffering for any other being. And there's nothing in you that doesn't want to help. ease the suffering of the entire world.

So again, now I'm into a kind of Asian modality of there's this Bodhisattva prayer that goes, for as long as space endures and as long as sentient beings exist, may I also abide that I might heal with my heart the miseries of the world. And that part of us is in everyone. And if we become those people, It won't just be parents being kind to children.

So again, now I'm into a kind of Asian modality of there's this Bodhisattva prayer that goes, for as long as space endures and as long as sentient beings exist, may I also abide that I might heal with my heart the miseries of the world. And that part of us is in everyone. And if we become those people, It won't just be parents being kind to children.

It will be humans being kind to each other, the earth, and all other beings. And we may actually make it into another century.

It will be humans being kind to each other, the earth, and all other beings. And we may actually make it into another century.

I believe it's actually the only part of us that's real. I talked a minute ago about people who are dying. They drop the pretense. They don't need the pretense of belonging to the material world or the material body anymore. And that radiance begins to gather. in their eyes. And it's not new. It's what they came in with.

I believe it's actually the only part of us that's real. I talked a minute ago about people who are dying. They drop the pretense. They don't need the pretense of belonging to the material world or the material body anymore. And that radiance begins to gather. in their eyes. And it's not new. It's what they came in with.

If you've looked into the eyes of a young child, a little baby, you see the same thing. And it's only when people die that they put down everything else. Unless, as Eckhart Tolle says, you die before you die and learn that there is no death. Because that self does not feel physical. It feels metaphysical.

If you've looked into the eyes of a young child, a little baby, you see the same thing. And it's only when people die that they put down everything else. Unless, as Eckhart Tolle says, you die before you die and learn that there is no death. Because that self does not feel physical. It feels metaphysical.

I think you've said— The other parts are impermanent. They will vanish. Everything, as Shakespeare says, everything will just disappear and leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff as dreams are made on. There is an experience that is common to individuals all over the world in different cultures at different times where they start to say they feel as if they've awakened from a dream.

I think you've said— The other parts are impermanent. They will vanish. Everything, as Shakespeare says, everything will just disappear and leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff as dreams are made on. There is an experience that is common to individuals all over the world in different cultures at different times where they start to say they feel as if they've awakened from a dream.

Oh, it's so good to be here, Andrew. Thank you.

Oh, it's so good to be here, Andrew. Thank you.

Plato did it with his cave analogy. He said, Imagine that we all live chained in a cave and there's a fire behind us and we see shadows on the wall and that's what we call reality.

Plato did it with his cave analogy. He said, Imagine that we all live chained in a cave and there's a fire behind us and we see shadows on the wall and that's what we call reality.

And then someone gets out of the cave and goes outside and sees this three-dimensional world where everything's bright and mobile and goes back and says, the shadows on the wall are real, they're real shadows, but they're not the ultimate reality. You should come outside and see it. And Plato said, everybody would say he was crazy. And that's what academia says now. You're crazy.

And then someone gets out of the cave and goes outside and sees this three-dimensional world where everything's bright and mobile and goes back and says, the shadows on the wall are real, they're real shadows, but they're not the ultimate reality. You should come outside and see it. And Plato said, everybody would say he was crazy. And that's what academia says now. You're crazy.

If you've ever had an experience where you felt like there was something realer than your physical self, you're crazy. Like, read Plato.

If you've ever had an experience where you felt like there was something realer than your physical self, you're crazy. Like, read Plato.

Yeah, and not without supervision. But if you can get somebody really good at it, I'm not saying do it either, but I'm not saying don't do it.

Yeah, and not without supervision. But if you can get somebody really good at it, I'm not saying do it either, but I'm not saying don't do it.

Yeah, it's not step number one. Step number one is suffering.

Yeah, it's not step number one. Step number one is suffering.

We all have that. You may have never felt good in your life, listener, but you have suffered. That's for sure. That's the first noble truth of Buddhism. There is suffering in this life. Pay attention to your suffering without fighting it. Allow it to be there. I did this meditation. If something's physically painful or emotionally painful, I used to say, let go, let go to myself. Didn't work.

We all have that. You may have never felt good in your life, listener, but you have suffered. That's for sure. That's the first noble truth of Buddhism. There is suffering in this life. Pay attention to your suffering without fighting it. Allow it to be there. I did this meditation. If something's physically painful or emotionally painful, I used to say, let go, let go to myself. Didn't work.

So one day I said, all right, you can stay. Let it stay. And so I do a let stay meditation. If there's pain, let it stay. If there's sorrow, let it stay. And as soon as I let it stay, it begins to change. So first step is suffering. Second step is compassionate attention to one's suffering with no resistance.

So one day I said, all right, you can stay. Let it stay. And so I do a let stay meditation. If there's pain, let it stay. If there's sorrow, let it stay. And as soon as I let it stay, it begins to change. So first step is suffering. Second step is compassionate attention to one's suffering with no resistance.

And the third step is to follow the compassion that is naturally being directed toward that suffering until you find yourself centered in it. And that is a huge relief. And I've done this in massive physical pain. I've done it when I just lost people I love. It's a very powerful, maybe not a panacea, but not that far from it.

And the third step is to follow the compassion that is naturally being directed toward that suffering until you find yourself centered in it. And that is a huge relief. And I've done this in massive physical pain. I've done it when I just lost people I love. It's a very powerful, maybe not a panacea, but not that far from it.

If you can get there, you're still suffering, but there's a piece that holds the suffering so lovingly. that it no longer concerns you. So on one level, that you're suffering, and on a different level, which feels more real to me, there's only peace and compassion and wonder and joy. And somebody asked me once, if there's a metaphysical reality, why is there suffering?

If you can get there, you're still suffering, but there's a piece that holds the suffering so lovingly. that it no longer concerns you. So on one level, that you're suffering, and on a different level, which feels more real to me, there's only peace and compassion and wonder and joy. And somebody asked me once, if there's a metaphysical reality, why is there suffering?

And I just heard coming out of my mouth, because the self loves experience and is not afraid to suffer. It's not afraid. So then staying in that is highly motivated by the suffering you feel when you leave. So to me, that's first step, suffer. Second step, pay attention to suffering. Third step, follow compassion to its origin. Fourth step, never stop doing that.

And I just heard coming out of my mouth, because the self loves experience and is not afraid to suffer. It's not afraid. So then staying in that is highly motivated by the suffering you feel when you leave. So to me, that's first step, suffer. Second step, pay attention to suffering. Third step, follow compassion to its origin. Fourth step, never stop doing that.

Every minute. Yeah. Yeah.

Every minute. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I would – can I reverse it and talk about what's true first? So I remember sitting when I was 17 in the Lamont Library at Harvard contemplating ending my life and like – Actually ending your life. Oh, yes. Yes. And looking at the – equally miserable scratchings that other teenagers had put in the wood there. And I thought, okay, they say the truth will set you free.

Well, I would – can I reverse it and talk about what's true first? So I remember sitting when I was 17 in the Lamont Library at Harvard contemplating ending my life and like – Actually ending your life. Oh, yes. Yes. And looking at the – equally miserable scratchings that other teenagers had put in the wood there. And I thought, okay, they say the truth will set you free.

All right, I'll give it a try. And I just started trying to find out what was true. And I read through all the works of the greatest philosophers until I got to Immanuel Kant, who says, everything is screened through our perceptions, so we can't know that anything is true for certain. And I felt such relief. Okay, I can't intellectually know what's true.

All right, I'll give it a try. And I just started trying to find out what was true. And I read through all the works of the greatest philosophers until I got to Immanuel Kant, who says, everything is screened through our perceptions, so we can't know that anything is true for certain. And I felt such relief. Okay, I can't intellectually know what's true.

Then if it's not true, if I can't intellectually know something's true because everything's subjective, what's useful? What feels like truth to the body? And I was interested that, for example, polygraph machines work because the body hates to lie, right?

Then if it's not true, if I can't intellectually know something's true because everything's subjective, what's useful? What feels like truth to the body? And I was interested that, for example, polygraph machines work because the body hates to lie, right?

it starts to send up a whole bunch of, you know, activation of stress systems and puts you in fight or flight and everything when you tell a lie or when you keep a secret. So I just started thinking, all right, what makes my body contract and and weaken, and what makes my body feel peaceful, centered, and grounded. And you do so much work with the body.

it starts to send up a whole bunch of, you know, activation of stress systems and puts you in fight or flight and everything when you tell a lie or when you keep a secret. So I just started thinking, all right, what makes my body contract and and weaken, and what makes my body feel peaceful, centered, and grounded. And you do so much work with the body.

I love that you're a brain-body scientist, because the body is incredibly wise. So I just started letting myself test things, like I was raised Mormon. And very, very Mormon. So, okay, Mormonism. Oh, boy, that doesn't make me feel good at all.

I love that you're a brain-body scientist, because the body is incredibly wise. So I just started letting myself test things, like I was raised Mormon. And very, very Mormon. So, okay, Mormonism. Oh, boy, that doesn't make me feel good at all.

And, okay, so God is not a white man who lives near the planet Kolob. Okay, that is not true. Okay, that feels better. Okay. So I started following what made my body relax because my whole body, as I said a few minutes ago, is far more sophisticated, has spent far more time being tinkered with by evolution than my human ability to think in language.

And, okay, so God is not a white man who lives near the planet Kolob. Okay, that is not true. Okay, that feels better. Okay. So I started following what made my body relax because my whole body, as I said a few minutes ago, is far more sophisticated, has spent far more time being tinkered with by evolution than my human ability to think in language.

It has a response to truth or falsehood that's more subtle and sophisticated than my intellectual knowledge. That's how I made the decision to keep my son. That's how I've made almost all my decisions. Does it make my body relax? And then does the mind come to the party and make the math work? Okay.

It has a response to truth or falsehood that's more subtle and sophisticated than my intellectual knowledge. That's how I made the decision to keep my son. That's how I've made almost all my decisions. Does it make my body relax? And then does the mind come to the party and make the math work? Okay.

Mormonism says that all the American Indians were descended from a group of Israelites who came across in 600 BC in a boat to the Americas. Okay. Does the math work? What does the genetic evidence say? No, they came over the Aleutian Straits and down into the Americas.

Mormonism says that all the American Indians were descended from a group of Israelites who came across in 600 BC in a boat to the Americas. Okay. Does the math work? What does the genetic evidence say? No, they came over the Aleutian Straits and down into the Americas.

When I was living in Utah, they excommunicated a DNA expert from the Mormon church for finding the data that said that Mormonism's claims were wrong. So something that makes my body relax where it's also logically coherent. That's the first thing. And then what you find is if you really pursue that, what is true? What is true? What is true?

When I was living in Utah, they excommunicated a DNA expert from the Mormon church for finding the data that said that Mormonism's claims were wrong. So something that makes my body relax where it's also logically coherent. That's the first thing. And then what you find is if you really pursue that, what is true? What is true? What is true?

Everything that makes you suffer turns out to have flaws in the logic, including I will die. Right. Because I can't know, I have no idea. So to say that I will go out like a candle when my body dies is just as fundamentalist as saying I'm gonna go sit on a cloud and play a harp. I don't know.

Everything that makes you suffer turns out to have flaws in the logic, including I will die. Right. Because I can't know, I have no idea. So to say that I will go out like a candle when my body dies is just as fundamentalist as saying I'm gonna go sit on a cloud and play a harp. I don't know.

Nisargadatta Maharaj, one of my favorite yogis says, the only true assertion that the mind can make is I do not know. But you can feel what feels right to you. So that's what ends up being real. What's left over when you eliminate all the things that feel deeply untrue to your body and don't make logical sense? And some of those are things that our culture is very, very fond of.

Nisargadatta Maharaj, one of my favorite yogis says, the only true assertion that the mind can make is I do not know. But you can feel what feels right to you. So that's what ends up being real. What's left over when you eliminate all the things that feel deeply untrue to your body and don't make logical sense? And some of those are things that our culture is very, very fond of.

Like everything has to be measured or it's not real. Is that true?

Like everything has to be measured or it's not real. Is that true?

Really?

Really?

Those friends are probably dead by now. They're not doing well. That's true. And I grew up

Those friends are probably dead by now. They're not doing well. That's true. And I grew up

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Well, we have this culture of push, push, push, produce, produce, produce. One of my favorite heroes, along with Oliver Sacks, is Ian McGilchrist at Oxford. I love that man. He may wake up someday just to find me crouched on his bed watching him sleep. He's like, he's not just a neurologist. Ian, don't be scared. Not in a creepy way. Not in a creepy way, sir.

Well, we have this culture of push, push, push, produce, produce, produce. One of my favorite heroes, along with Oliver Sacks, is Ian McGilchrist at Oxford. I love that man. He may wake up someday just to find me crouched on his bed watching him sleep. He's like, he's not just a neurologist. Ian, don't be scared. Not in a creepy way. Not in a creepy way, sir.

But he talks about how our particular culture for the last few hundred years has veered towards stuff that is preferentially favored by the left hemisphere of the brain. And it has to do with grasping things and producing physical things and getting things to happen, controlling them, where the right side of the brain, and of course, it's all I'm oversimplifying massively.

But he talks about how our particular culture for the last few hundred years has veered towards stuff that is preferentially favored by the left hemisphere of the brain. And it has to do with grasping things and producing physical things and getting things to happen, controlling them, where the right side of the brain, and of course, it's all I'm oversimplifying massively.

But functions like meaning, synthesis, combinations of different bits of knowledge, we're moving away from those. And one of my good friends is Jill Bolte-Taylor who had, she was a Harvard neuroanatomist and she had a massive left hemisphere stroke. And so she suddenly, she watched her left hemisphere go off. She had a brain bleed and it would pulse.

But functions like meaning, synthesis, combinations of different bits of knowledge, we're moving away from those. And one of my good friends is Jill Bolte-Taylor who had, she was a Harvard neuroanatomist and she had a massive left hemisphere stroke. And so she suddenly, she watched her left hemisphere go off. She had a brain bleed and it would pulse.

So her left hemisphere would be there, and she'd see everything as solid and measurable and verbal, and then it would go off. And she was in a world where she was like a fluid the size of the universe. And she would watch. She was in the shower, and she watched her hand on the tiles dissolve into fields of energy. And you were talking about energy earlier.

So her left hemisphere would be there, and she'd see everything as solid and measurable and verbal, and then it would go off. And she was in a world where she was like a fluid the size of the universe. And she would watch. She was in the shower, and she watched her hand on the tiles dissolve into fields of energy. And you were talking about energy earlier.

She said by the time her left hemisphere had shut down completely, a phone call made. She couldn't talk by the time the phone call went through. She got to a hospital, took her eight years to come back to full functioning. But she said, during that time, I did not know people's names, I didn't know the word person, but boy, could I feel people's energy.

She said by the time her left hemisphere had shut down completely, a phone call made. She couldn't talk by the time the phone call went through. She got to a hospital, took her eight years to come back to full functioning. But she said, during that time, I did not know people's names, I didn't know the word person, but boy, could I feel people's energy.

And as she healed, she didn't bother to get rid of her ability to feel people's energy. So she's a great fan of using the whole brain. Whole Brain Living is her latest book, and it's great.

And as she healed, she didn't bother to get rid of her ability to feel people's energy. So she's a great fan of using the whole brain. Whole Brain Living is her latest book, and it's great.

But Ian McGilchrist talks about how when we don't use the whole brain, his book The Master and His Emissary says the part of the brain that knows meaning should be the master, and the data collector is just the emissary. But the data collector has taken over in Western medicine. society, Western, educated, industrialized, rich, democratic, if you want to get technical.

But Ian McGilchrist talks about how when we don't use the whole brain, his book The Master and His Emissary says the part of the brain that knows meaning should be the master, and the data collector is just the emissary. But the data collector has taken over in Western medicine. society, Western, educated, industrialized, rich, democratic, if you want to get technical.

And so what you were doing to yourself was completely irrational, completely. You should get the Darwin Award for taking yourself out of the gene pool.

And so what you were doing to yourself was completely irrational, completely. You should get the Darwin Award for taking yourself out of the gene pool.

Oh, there is.

Oh, there is.

I think it's cool that you did that. I think it's really useful. I mean, there are many situations where your ability to do that could be really useful. Like a pair of scissors could be really useful. But when you're like trying to re-diaper the baby, you put the scissors down. It's a tool that you can use and it's fascinating.

I think it's cool that you did that. I think it's really useful. I mean, there are many situations where your ability to do that could be really useful. Like a pair of scissors could be really useful. But when you're like trying to re-diaper the baby, you put the scissors down. It's a tool that you can use and it's fascinating.

I did martial arts for eight years and I loved pushing myself to the point where I was bruised and bleeding and my doctor thought I was a victim of domestic abuse. I think it's useful and even fun, but you have to know when your heart's in it and when your heart is not in it, when your self is delighting in the adventure and when self says, no, Andrew, peace, be still, you know?

I did martial arts for eight years and I loved pushing myself to the point where I was bruised and bleeding and my doctor thought I was a victim of domestic abuse. I think it's useful and even fun, but you have to know when your heart's in it and when your heart is not in it, when your self is delighting in the adventure and when self says, no, Andrew, peace, be still, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It works. I don't know how or why it works, but I used to have people send me a postcard. This is how long I've been doing this stuff. Now it's emails and texts that I say, okay, we just did your ideal day. You've got it all written down. Now send me a notification when that day happens. And I get a lot of notifications.

It works. I don't know how or why it works, but I used to have people send me a postcard. This is how long I've been doing this stuff. Now it's emails and texts that I say, okay, we just did your ideal day. You've got it all written down. Now send me a notification when that day happens. And I get a lot of notifications.

The Buddha used to say, he said this often, that wherever you find the ocean, whatever it looks like, you can know it because the ocean always tastes of salt. And wherever you find awakening or enlightenment, no matter what it looks like, you will know it because it always tastes of freedom. So it's not that you stop suffering, it's that you are free.

The Buddha used to say, he said this often, that wherever you find the ocean, whatever it looks like, you can know it because the ocean always tastes of salt. And wherever you find awakening or enlightenment, no matter what it looks like, you will know it because it always tastes of freedom. So it's not that you stop suffering, it's that you are free.

You are free to interact with your own suffering in a new way, and that is peace. So you look, and it literally physically affects the body as not free, free. And if anybody out there listening, go to a really rough time in your life and imagine it.

You are free to interact with your own suffering in a new way, and that is peace. So you look, and it literally physically affects the body as not free, free. And if anybody out there listening, go to a really rough time in your life and imagine it.

I mean, go to that time in your life when you were pushing yourself, and you can actually remember the tightness in your throat, in your back, in your... It's contracted. And then remember the best moment of your life and what was happening then. And all your muscles will loosen, relax, and open. And that is my gauge of truth. Does it set me free? The truth sets you free.

I mean, go to that time in your life when you were pushing yourself, and you can actually remember the tightness in your throat, in your back, in your... It's contracted. And then remember the best moment of your life and what was happening then. And all your muscles will loosen, relax, and open. And that is my gauge of truth. Does it set me free? The truth sets you free.

So whatever sets you free is the truth. Then reality is going to start changing for you with or without psychedelics. And I remember sitting, and I had this overwhelming obsession with meditation when I turned 50.

So whatever sets you free is the truth. Then reality is going to start changing for you with or without psychedelics. And I remember sitting, and I had this overwhelming obsession with meditation when I turned 50.

And I just bought this place in the woods in central California, and I'd go out and sprinkle myself with birdseed and meditate in the forest all day while the chipmunks came and the birds would land on me. Nice. Oh, it was amazing. And about six months into really meditating for hours every day,

And I just bought this place in the woods in central California, and I'd go out and sprinkle myself with birdseed and meditate in the forest all day while the chipmunks came and the birds would land on me. Nice. Oh, it was amazing. And about six months into really meditating for hours every day,

I kind of had an experience like Jill Bolte-Taylor in the shower where I was in the forest with the chipmunks and birds, and then it was just light. And it was like, it was so startling. It was like I'd fallen off a cliff. Like I couldn't see the ground. I couldn't. And then everything was back. And then it started happening a lot.

I kind of had an experience like Jill Bolte-Taylor in the shower where I was in the forest with the chipmunks and birds, and then it was just light. And it was like, it was so startling. It was like I'd fallen off a cliff. Like I couldn't see the ground. I couldn't. And then everything was back. And then it started happening a lot.

And I read in shamanic traditions, they call this experience stopping the world. And it can happen through the guidance of a shaman or a plant or whatever. It was happening to me through meditation. And in that space of light, which I stopped fearing after a while, It looked as if this thing we're doing now is a video game.

And I read in shamanic traditions, they call this experience stopping the world. And it can happen through the guidance of a shaman or a plant or whatever. It was happening to me through meditation. And in that space of light, which I stopped fearing after a while, It looked as if this thing we're doing now is a video game.

If you and I were sitting and playing a video game, you would choose a character. I would choose a character. You'd stab me with a sword. I'd hit you with a mace. And we would say, you are hurting me. You are killing me. But really, we'd be talking about characters in a video game. And then somebody would come say, let's go get lunch.

If you and I were sitting and playing a video game, you would choose a character. I would choose a character. You'd stab me with a sword. I'd hit you with a mace. And we would say, you are hurting me. You are killing me. But really, we'd be talking about characters in a video game. And then somebody would come say, let's go get lunch.

And we would put it down and go stop stabbing each other and be friends. It feels to me as if this is more like a game than reality, the whole physical everything. And I call this you, me, and you call that me, and I call it you. And when the game stops, however that happens... There's a level of reality as different from this one as a video game is from three-dimensional life.

And we would put it down and go stop stabbing each other and be friends. It feels to me as if this is more like a game than reality, the whole physical everything. And I call this you, me, and you call that me, and I call it you. And when the game stops, however that happens... There's a level of reality as different from this one as a video game is from three-dimensional life.

There's a world outside the cave. And I don't know what it is. And I may be wrong. I don't care.

There's a world outside the cave. And I don't know what it is. And I may be wrong. I don't care.

As close as we can. For us. We can't ever know completely what's true. For us. The whole – the Baconian method is accept nothing until it's proven true. Well, we can't prove anything true. We could all be dreaming this. So I decided that I would accept everything until I'm convinced that it's false. So I don't really believe anything. But I'm willing to – Like a scientist.

As close as we can. For us. We can't ever know completely what's true. For us. The whole – the Baconian method is accept nothing until it's proven true. Well, we can't prove anything true. We could all be dreaming this. So I decided that I would accept everything until I'm convinced that it's false. So I don't really believe anything. But I'm willing to – Like a scientist.

Yeah, I don't believe anything because I can't – nothing can be absolutely proven. But I do know what's most useful to me, what makes me healthy. I've had a really, really sick, weak body most of my life. And it became a big part of my navigational system. I now think I have – the MCAS, Mass Cell Activation Syndrome. You put out a podcast on that. My daughter's been diagnosed with it.

Yeah, I don't believe anything because I can't – nothing can be absolutely proven. But I do know what's most useful to me, what makes me healthy. I've had a really, really sick, weak body most of my life. And it became a big part of my navigational system. I now think I have – the MCAS, Mass Cell Activation Syndrome. You put out a podcast on that. My daughter's been diagnosed with it.

This is so good.

This is so good.

I probably have it. And it's just this weird random thing where you get symptoms in different parts of your body. It's an overactive immune system. Yeah.

I probably have it. And it's just this weird random thing where you get symptoms in different parts of your body. It's an overactive immune system. Yeah.

Does it really?

Does it really?

And I've listened to your podcast and I thought, that guy's really cool. And here I am.

And I've listened to your podcast and I thought, that guy's really cool. And here I am.

Yeah, and my mother had it, and I just wish she had lived to see the diagnosis even exist. But my daughter called me from England the other day, and we were talking about the fact that she has that diagnosis. And she said, I am allergic to my own goddamn emotions. And I was like, yeah, we both are. And my whole journey has been –

Yeah, and my mother had it, and I just wish she had lived to see the diagnosis even exist. But my daughter called me from England the other day, and we were talking about the fact that she has that diagnosis. And she said, I am allergic to my own goddamn emotions. And I was like, yeah, we both are. And my whole journey has been –

really, really accelerated by the fact that if I go off true for myself emotionally, psychologically, metaphysically, whatever, I immediately get physical symptoms of some kind. But when I am true to myself, they all subside and I get this unbelievable health. So I've been told that I had five different progressive incurable diseases. I don't have any symptoms.

really, really accelerated by the fact that if I go off true for myself emotionally, psychologically, metaphysically, whatever, I immediately get physical symptoms of some kind. But when I am true to myself, they all subside and I get this unbelievable health. So I've been told that I had five different progressive incurable diseases. I don't have any symptoms.

But if I allow myself to be untrue to myself, if I allow myself to get out of integrity, I suffer intensely and immediately and in a very real way. So I don't know what's true, but I know what keeps me healthy. And I know what feels like freedom. And if I hit a thought like there is nothing to us but physical matter and it feels like tension, like when I put down my dog,

But if I allow myself to be untrue to myself, if I allow myself to get out of integrity, I suffer intensely and immediately and in a very real way. So I don't know what's true, but I know what keeps me healthy. And I know what feels like freedom. And if I hit a thought like there is nothing to us but physical matter and it feels like tension, like when I put down my dog,

And I felt something go through me as she died. It was like, I don't know whether that I was feeling something that was real, but that's as close to the truth as I can get. And if I see right now what's happening to me, I'm getting into this self thing. And as I'm talking about this dog, I feel that dog. And I can feel, I'm going to sound crazy.

And I felt something go through me as she died. It was like, I don't know whether that I was feeling something that was real, but that's as close to the truth as I can get. And if I see right now what's happening to me, I'm getting into this self thing. And as I'm talking about this dog, I feel that dog. And I can feel, I'm going to sound crazy.

Yeah. Our phones are electronic circuits that communicate at a distance. We are electronic circuits. Why shouldn't we communicate at a distance? That's right.

Yeah. Our phones are electronic circuits that communicate at a distance. We are electronic circuits. Why shouldn't we communicate at a distance? That's right.

And my dog was a physical entity, but my dog was also an energetic entity. And that entity was something I could feel. And this is, I don't know how many, a couple of years later, I start talking about that dog. I feel it again. And it is a... Okay.

And my dog was a physical entity, but my dog was also an energetic entity. And that entity was something I could feel. And this is, I don't know how many, a couple of years later, I start talking about that dog. I feel it again. And it is a... Okay.

So when I was pregnant with my son Adam, one of the big reasons I chose to keep the baby is that from the moment he was conceived, I started having experiences that completely blew apart my understanding of reality. My husband at the time was traveling in Asia a lot. And when I would think about him, It would happen a lot at night. For me, I'd be lying in bed, and I would think about him.

So when I was pregnant with my son Adam, one of the big reasons I chose to keep the baby is that from the moment he was conceived, I started having experiences that completely blew apart my understanding of reality. My husband at the time was traveling in Asia a lot. And when I would think about him, It would happen a lot at night. For me, I'd be lying in bed, and I would think about him.

And it would be daytime in Asia, and I would suddenly be in a three-dimensional movie where I'd be walking down a street in Japan or flying over a thunderstorm in an airplane. And I'd see these very specific things, very specific.

And it would be daytime in Asia, and I would suddenly be in a three-dimensional movie where I'd be walking down a street in Japan or flying over a thunderstorm in an airplane. And I'd see these very specific things, very specific.

And then he would call me like the next day and say, oh, I was walking down this street in Japan and I saw this very specific banner and I flew over a thunderstorm and the lightning was amazing. And I started to realize. I was picking up information that he was seeing and it was testable, it kept happening. So what is that?

And then he would call me like the next day and say, oh, I was walking down this street in Japan and I saw this very specific banner and I flew over a thunderstorm and the lightning was amazing. And I started to realize. I was picking up information that he was seeing and it was testable, it kept happening. So what is that?

It would have been so non-scientific of me to say that is completely insignificant, don't pay any attention. It just was too weird. And so that's when I decided I'll believe anything until I'm convinced it's false. And that throws your whole mind open to understanding the universe as being far more mysterious than our culture likes to say it is.

It would have been so non-scientific of me to say that is completely insignificant, don't pay any attention. It just was too weird. And so that's when I decided I'll believe anything until I'm convinced it's false. And that throws your whole mind open to understanding the universe as being far more mysterious than our culture likes to say it is.

And yes, there's a danger of getting woo-woo and crazy, but as I said, the math has to work too. And you're just telling us how the neurophysics of energy are being tested and shown to be operative. It's not woo-woo. It's just at the outside edge of what our culture is willing to accept.

And yes, there's a danger of getting woo-woo and crazy, but as I said, the math has to work too. And you're just telling us how the neurophysics of energy are being tested and shown to be operative. It's not woo-woo. It's just at the outside edge of what our culture is willing to accept.

So the first thing is that you don't make up something. People would always tell me they'd make up a day where they woke up in a white room with white sheets and windows with white curtains. And then they would put on white clothes and drift around. And I realized finally that these people were just tired. And they were tired.

So the first thing is that you don't make up something. People would always tell me they'd make up a day where they woke up in a white room with white sheets and windows with white curtains. And then they would put on white clothes and drift around. And I realized finally that these people were just tired. And they were tired.

That is not an accident.

That is not an accident.

Right.

Right.

They could not project anything but a sort of blankness that I finally realized meant that they just pushed themselves too hard. So I stopped doing this with people until they were well-rested. Then you don't make it up. You see it happen. That's the key thing. You allow it into your mind, not as though you're reaching with your imagination, just as though it emerges. So I talk people through it.

They could not project anything but a sort of blankness that I finally realized meant that they just pushed themselves too hard. So I stopped doing this with people until they were well-rested. Then you don't make it up. You see it happen. That's the key thing. You allow it into your mind, not as though you're reaching with your imagination, just as though it emerges. So I talk people through it.

No, I think it's amazing. I think addicts are people who are hypersensitive to the suffering that they are told to accept. And so they're trying to medicate the suffering that comes from being out of integrity. And the society says, you know, like I talked to people, I interviewed people for this book who would go to their – this one woman went with her husband to the psychiatrist and

No, I think it's amazing. I think addicts are people who are hypersensitive to the suffering that they are told to accept. And so they're trying to medicate the suffering that comes from being out of integrity. And the society says, you know, like I talked to people, I interviewed people for this book who would go to their – this one woman went with her husband to the psychiatrist and

They said, you know, she's not happy doing the traditional wife role. And they sat there and talked about what medication would enable her to fulfill this social role that she just didn't like. It never occurred to anybody to say, you know, maybe don't do it if you don't like it that much.

They said, you know, she's not happy doing the traditional wife role. And they sat there and talked about what medication would enable her to fulfill this social role that she just didn't like. It never occurred to anybody to say, you know, maybe don't do it if you don't like it that much.

And people are medicating themselves into a conformity with social systems that are not in line with their true nature. And addicts hurt people. And they sometimes they find a substance or they find an activity that gives them relief. And so they use it because they're in a lot of pain.

And people are medicating themselves into a conformity with social systems that are not in line with their true nature. And addicts hurt people. And they sometimes they find a substance or they find an activity that gives them relief. And so they use it because they're in a lot of pain.

Yeah. And it always does. And it's horrible. But one addiction specialist I know says it's like they're standing on a nail and trying to take enough drugs to stop the pain. But that is not what you need to do when you're standing on a nail. You need to take the nail out.

Yeah. And it always does. And it's horrible. But one addiction specialist I know says it's like they're standing on a nail and trying to take enough drugs to stop the pain. But that is not what you need to do when you're standing on a nail. You need to take the nail out.

And the nail is the part of your life that you're living that's out of integrity with your true nature because other people want you to live that way. And they will force themselves. They want to stay in the position of pain or fear, push past it, be stronger.

And the nail is the part of your life that you're living that's out of integrity with your true nature because other people want you to live that way. And they will force themselves. They want to stay in the position of pain or fear, push past it, be stronger.

But how laudable is it that you took what the culture told you was good and by God, you learned to do it.

But how laudable is it that you took what the culture told you was good and by God, you learned to do it.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess I'm going to start with the Wu story. I was very sick. And at one point, they rushed me into surgery, didn't know what was wrong with me. I had some internal bleeding going on. That's a long story. I wrote about it in another book. Point is, during the surgery, I regained consciousness and sat up and looked at them operating on me.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess I'm going to start with the Wu story. I was very sick. And at one point, they rushed me into surgery, didn't know what was wrong with me. I had some internal bleeding going on. That's a long story. I wrote about it in another book. Point is, during the surgery, I regained consciousness and sat up and looked at them operating on me.

which was surprising because I was lying down there and so I was like very disconcerted. And I lay back down and I looked up between the surgical lights and between them appeared this ball of light that was much, much, much brighter than the surgical lights, which are very bright. And it was so beautiful. You just, you can't describe it. It's outside the cave.

which was surprising because I was lying down there and so I was like very disconcerted. And I lay back down and I looked up between the surgical lights and between them appeared this ball of light that was much, much, much brighter than the surgical lights, which are very bright. And it was so beautiful. You just, you can't describe it. It's outside the cave.

The first thing is you wake up in the morning. You're perfectly refreshed by a beautiful sleep. In your imagination, don't open your eyes, but listen. What do you hear? So you don't make it up. You listen for it. What do you hear?

The first thing is you wake up in the morning. You're perfectly refreshed by a beautiful sleep. In your imagination, don't open your eyes, but listen. What do you hear? So you don't make it up. You listen for it. What do you hear?

And I was just completely obsessed by it. And then it started to grow. And when it touched me and it filled things, it didn't bounce off things, it filled them. When it touched me, this incredible joy and love and warmth

And I was just completely obsessed by it. And then it started to grow. And when it touched me and it filled things, it didn't bounce off things, it filled them. When it touched me, this incredible joy and love and warmth

flooded my body and I started to cry and my body was crying and the surgeons noticed these tears coming out of my eyes and they freaked out because they thought that I was feeling the surgery and crying was the only thing I could do about it. So they were panicking and the anesthesiologist, they told him, you know, bump up the medication. Later, because I grilled him later, what did you give me?

flooded my body and I started to cry and my body was crying and the surgeons noticed these tears coming out of my eyes and they freaked out because they thought that I was feeling the surgery and crying was the only thing I could do about it. So they were panicking and the anesthesiologist, they told him, you know, bump up the medication. Later, because I grilled him later, what did you give me?

What are the side effects? What happens? Can I have some more? He said afterward that, When he went to increase the medication, he said a voice said to him, don't. She's crying because she's happy. And he said, I just did what it said. And he was white and shaking. And he said, did I do the right thing? So I kind of told him a little of the story. Anyway, this light was there. Yeah.

What are the side effects? What happens? Can I have some more? He said afterward that, When he went to increase the medication, he said a voice said to him, don't. She's crying because she's happy. And he said, I just did what it said. And he was white and shaking. And he said, did I do the right thing? So I kind of told him a little of the story. Anyway, this light was there. Yeah.

And I was just like, home, home, home. And it said, yeah, okay, so this is what you really are, and you're about to have a pretty tough time for a while. But just remember, I'm always here, even though you can't see me. And so I came out of that surgery, and I thought, I will not allow anything to my life that doesn't feel like that light.

And I was just like, home, home, home. And it said, yeah, okay, so this is what you really are, and you're about to have a pretty tough time for a while. But just remember, I'm always here, even though you can't see me. And so I came out of that surgery, and I thought, I will not allow anything to my life that doesn't feel like that light.

Oh, that's what it—it wasn't like it used language, but it said— This is not the way you feel after you die. This is the way you're supposed to learn to feel all the time. So in your body, out of your body, it doesn't matter. This is how you're meant to feel.

Oh, that's what it—it wasn't like it used language, but it said— This is not the way you feel after you die. This is the way you're supposed to learn to feel all the time. So in your body, out of your body, it doesn't matter. This is how you're meant to feel.

And believe me, when I worked with heroin addicts, they would describe their first high, and it was as close to that as anything I'd heard people describe. And I would say, I believe you're meant to feel that way. And also keep your teeth, you know? But... So I didn't tell a lie for a year. I came out of it and I thought, well, lying is definitely not going to feel like that.

And believe me, when I worked with heroin addicts, they would describe their first high, and it was as close to that as anything I'd heard people describe. And I would say, I believe you're meant to feel that way. And also keep your teeth, you know? But... So I didn't tell a lie for a year. I came out of it and I thought, well, lying is definitely not going to feel like that.

That light does not lie. So no lies ever.

That light does not lie. So no lies ever.

Can't say that. Say 12. Do you like my outfit? No, I do not. I mean, I found ways to...

Can't say that. Say 12. Do you like my outfit? No, I do not. I mean, I found ways to...

No. In fact, it felt untrue to say certain things to certain people. It felt invasive or offensive, and that didn't feel true. Sometimes silence was the greatest truth I could tell, but I didn't even know that that was the case until I started my experiment. So I did not lie for that year, and I've done it many, many times since.

No. In fact, it felt untrue to say certain things to certain people. It felt invasive or offensive, and that didn't feel true. Sometimes silence was the greatest truth I could tell, but I didn't even know that that was the case until I started my experiment. So I did not lie for that year, and I've done it many, many times since.

But I would not recommend jumping into it 100% from a life that hasn't already been pretty examined.

But I would not recommend jumping into it 100% from a life that hasn't already been pretty examined.

Yeah, the research shows that most people lie at least three times within 10 minutes of meeting another person, they lie to them. And men are socially conditioned to tell lies that make them seem a little bit cooler than they maybe think they are for real. And women, people identified as women, are socialized to tell lies that make other people feel good about themselves.

Yeah, the research shows that most people lie at least three times within 10 minutes of meeting another person, they lie to them. And men are socially conditioned to tell lies that make them seem a little bit cooler than they maybe think they are for real. And women, people identified as women, are socialized to tell lies that make other people feel good about themselves.

So it takes you in different directions. But I just wasn't going to tell any lie at all. And let me just say that that year, I It's not like I could say I lost these things, but the fact is I dropped them. I walked away from them. My religion, with the religion went the family of origin. Every friend I had growing up, because to leave Mormonism is worse than murder in that community. I was...

So it takes you in different directions. But I just wasn't going to tell any lie at all. And let me just say that that year, I It's not like I could say I lost these things, but the fact is I dropped them. I walked away from them. My religion, with the religion went the family of origin. Every friend I had growing up, because to leave Mormonism is worse than murder in that community. I was...

cast into outer darkness. My marriage realized I was gay. Oops. I hadn't figured that out at 29.

cast into outer darkness. My marriage realized I was gay. Oops. I hadn't figured that out at 29.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I was so... bent on being a good person according to my socialization, the same way you were bent on being a brave, strong male according to the skateboarding culture. I would never have let that anywhere near my consciousness. And it had to be a series of experiences and my ex-husband was gay as well. So I'd known that about him for a while.

No, I was so... bent on being a good person according to my socialization, the same way you were bent on being a brave, strong male according to the skateboarding culture. I would never have let that anywhere near my consciousness. And it had to be a series of experiences and my ex-husband was gay as well. So I'd known that about him for a while.

What about the sound of someone or someone's breathing?

What about the sound of someone or someone's breathing?

And I knew he was his best self when he was his gay self. So that kind of helped, but the marriage ended because of that. Let's see what else happened. Oh, yeah, I quit academia. So my industry, the thing I'd gone to all those years of school for, my job, means of support. I left my, I was living in Utah at the time and I sort of fled for the border. So I lost my home.

And I knew he was his best self when he was his gay self. So that kind of helped, but the marriage ended because of that. Let's see what else happened. Oh, yeah, I quit academia. So my industry, the thing I'd gone to all those years of school for, my job, means of support. I left my, I was living in Utah at the time and I sort of fled for the border. So I lost my home.

How were you feeling during this time? Better and better and better.

How were you feeling during this time? Better and better and better.

It kind of was, but not as horrible as staying in all those things.

It kind of was, but not as horrible as staying in all those things.

Oh, it's very, yeah, for parts of the psyche that are, you know, very attached to socialization and attached to people that are familiar to you, it's heartbreaking, really heartbreaking. But that light gave me a full-on experience of the self. And I just, I... What it told me was it's always there.

Oh, it's very, yeah, for parts of the psyche that are, you know, very attached to socialization and attached to people that are familiar to you, it's heartbreaking, really heartbreaking. But that light gave me a full-on experience of the self. And I just, I... What it told me was it's always there.

My son, who has Down syndrome, one day told me after his friend's mother died, we were coming home from the funeral, and he said, I didn't cry. And I said, it's okay if you cried. Strong men cry, and this is a sad time. And he said, yeah, it's not as hard after the light comes and opens your heart. And he can barely talk. And so it was very garbled.

My son, who has Down syndrome, one day told me after his friend's mother died, we were coming home from the funeral, and he said, I didn't cry. And I said, it's okay if you cried. Strong men cry, and this is a sad time. And he said, yeah, it's not as hard after the light comes and opens your heart. And he can barely talk. And so it was very garbled.

Ah, lovely. Is there a dog breathing on the foot of the bed?

Ah, lovely. Is there a dog breathing on the foot of the bed?

And I was like, what, a light came and opened your heart? He said, mm-hmm. I said, well, when did this happen? He said, May 10th. I was like, this year? No, I was 13. And I was like, you're holding out on me. So this light had appeared in his room when he was having a really hard time. Kids with Down syndrome don't have easy lives. And It touched his heart.

And I was like, what, a light came and opened your heart? He said, mm-hmm. I said, well, when did this happen? He said, May 10th. I was like, this year? No, I was 13. And I was like, you're holding out on me. So this light had appeared in his room when he was having a really hard time. Kids with Down syndrome don't have easy lives. And It touched his heart.

And he said, since then, nothing was as hard. And I said, you know, I saw it too. And it said to me that it's always with us, even though we can't see it. And he said, oh, I can see it. And I was like, you can? And he was like, yeah. Like, he was sort of disappointed in me. And I said, well, where is it? Is it like up there, down here in your head, in your heart?

And he said, since then, nothing was as hard. And I said, you know, I saw it too. And it said to me that it's always with us, even though we can't see it. And he said, oh, I can see it. And I was like, you can? And he was like, yeah. Like, he was sort of disappointed in me. And I said, well, where is it? Is it like up there, down here in your head, in your heart?

And he just looked at me and he said, mom, it's everywhere. He just sees the whole world illuminated. And I think that's what I saw in the forest when suddenly the world would just turn to light. It was that light. So that was the field.

And he just looked at me and he said, mom, it's everywhere. He just sees the whole world illuminated. And I think that's what I saw in the forest when suddenly the world would just turn to light. It was that light. So that was the field.

And as I lost each friendship, as I lost each job, as I faced the fear and the heartbreak and everything, those parts of me were dissolving and I was becoming more identified with life. that light. And that was the thing. It was completely selfish. I was not going back to the way I felt before I felt that light. Never going back there.

And as I lost each friendship, as I lost each job, as I faced the fear and the heartbreak and everything, those parts of me were dissolving and I was becoming more identified with life. that light. And that was the thing. It was completely selfish. I was not going back to the way I felt before I felt that light. Never going back there.

But be gentle with yourself. Don't quit your job. I mean, I was very violent. I was quite a lot like you. The way I got to Harvard was I had a part of myself called Fang that did not care what hurt me. I'd go running in the snow. I remember once I bought running shoes that were too small and all my toenails came off during that run. And I just kept running.

But be gentle with yourself. Don't quit your job. I mean, I was very violent. I was quite a lot like you. The way I got to Harvard was I had a part of myself called Fang that did not care what hurt me. I'd go running in the snow. I remember once I bought running shoes that were too small and all my toenails came off during that run. And I just kept running.

And I'd stop and take off another toenail and keep running. I was able to be very brutal to myself. Just living in Boston is brutal to me. Well, you know, on the plus side, my feet were completely numb because of the cold. Right.

And I'd stop and take off another toenail and keep running. I was able to be very brutal to myself. Just living in Boston is brutal to me. Well, you know, on the plus side, my feet were completely numb because of the cold. Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that's why I did this massive integrity cleanse when I was at a place where I was far, far away from my true self. And because of that, it was a kind of violent breaking of connections. So now if I'm coaching somebody, I'm like – Be very gentle. I call it one degree turns.

Yeah. And I think that's why I did this massive integrity cleanse when I was at a place where I was far, far away from my true self. And because of that, it was a kind of violent breaking of connections. So now if I'm coaching somebody, I'm like – Be very gentle. I call it one degree turns.

If you're flying a plane and you turn one degree north every half hour, you won't even notice it's turning, but you'll end up someplace very different. So just gently move away from what causes you to suffer. Get yourself the hot cup of tea in the morning to soothe your throat. Listen to your own sorrow. cancel a meeting because you just don't feel like doing it.

If you're flying a plane and you turn one degree north every half hour, you won't even notice it's turning, but you'll end up someplace very different. So just gently move away from what causes you to suffer. Get yourself the hot cup of tea in the morning to soothe your throat. Listen to your own sorrow. cancel a meeting because you just don't feel like doing it.

These are the things that bring you back to your truth. And it's always loving. And it's not loving necessarily to just say, I'm going to say the truth about everything and I don't care who hates me for it. That was just my way.

These are the things that bring you back to your truth. And it's always loving. And it's not loving necessarily to just say, I'm going to say the truth about everything and I don't care who hates me for it. That was just my way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Was it Keats who said that of all the ways there are to lose a person, death is the kindest. Like that.

Yeah. Was it Keats who said that of all the ways there are to lose a person, death is the kindest. Like that.

There can't be incompatible truths. I think what happens is that you, and just tell me where I'm wrong, okay? I could be completely full of crap. It sounds to me like you're one of the people who have a huge heart, who sometimes confuse love with self-abandonment, who love so deeply that you want the joy of the beloved more than you want your own joy.

There can't be incompatible truths. I think what happens is that you, and just tell me where I'm wrong, okay? I could be completely full of crap. It sounds to me like you're one of the people who have a huge heart, who sometimes confuse love with self-abandonment, who love so deeply that you want the joy of the beloved more than you want your own joy.

And that is not love. That is a hostage situation. There's something I call spider love. If you say to a spider, how do you feel about flies? It would say, oh, I love them. And it expresses that love by immobilizing them, wrapping them up and injecting them with poison and then sucking out their life force whenever it needs them. And it loves those flies. Yum.

And that is not love. That is a hostage situation. There's something I call spider love. If you say to a spider, how do you feel about flies? It would say, oh, I love them. And it expresses that love by immobilizing them, wrapping them up and injecting them with poison and then sucking out their life force whenever it needs them. And it loves those flies. Yum.

but love always sets the beloved free, okay? So there's a consumptive love. And when you are a fly and you meet a spider and you give your whole self to this person who goes, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, I really want that, you find yourself starved of your own validation, your kindness to your true self, and you've given it all to the other person. And that's when it will not work.

but love always sets the beloved free, okay? So there's a consumptive love. And when you are a fly and you meet a spider and you give your whole self to this person who goes, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, I really want that, you find yourself starved of your own validation, your kindness to your true self, and you've given it all to the other person. And that's when it will not work.

And you may be missing the people who aren't looking for flies or who want to just, I'm not going to extend this metaphor any further, who just want to be with you as a whole human, who want to know what your limitations are as well as their own, who will say to you, I have a new friend who had pneumonia and I wanted to talk to her on the phone.

And you may be missing the people who aren't looking for flies or who want to just, I'm not going to extend this metaphor any further, who just want to be with you as a whole human, who want to know what your limitations are as well as their own, who will say to you, I have a new friend who had pneumonia and I wanted to talk to her on the phone.

And I told my assistant, I don't care if I have pneumonia. And she wrote me a text and she said, do not impinge on your own health because you want me to feel loved. I don't like it. I want you to be healthy. And I was like, well. So I would examine that. The moment where you become so entranced with another that you stop caring about yourself and try to feed your whole life to them.

And I told my assistant, I don't care if I have pneumonia. And she wrote me a text and she said, do not impinge on your own health because you want me to feel loved. I don't like it. I want you to be healthy. And I was like, well. So I would examine that. The moment where you become so entranced with another that you stop caring about yourself and try to feed your whole life to them.

Because that's not love. It's something our culture defines as love. A lot of parents love their children that way. But you have to be able to know exactly what you want to communicate to the other person and to have them say, I completely respect that. Or you don't have a love situation. You have codependency. Mm-hmm.

Because that's not love. It's something our culture defines as love. A lot of parents love their children that way. But you have to be able to know exactly what you want to communicate to the other person and to have them say, I completely respect that. Or you don't have a love situation. You have codependency. Mm-hmm.

I'll relate it to this relationship thing because it applies across everything, but it's hardest in relationships. And that is start to notice the first moment when – And part of you, a deep part of you, knew you were losing your threat. You were losing your integrity.

I'll relate it to this relationship thing because it applies across everything, but it's hardest in relationships. And that is start to notice the first moment when – And part of you, a deep part of you, knew you were losing your threat. You were losing your integrity.

So if you think about a relationship you had that ended poorly, where you loved the other person by giving your whole self to them, which you've been taught is called love, even though I don't think it is called love. And then... Look back on the first moment that she wanted something and you abandoned yourself to give it to her. And it's usually very early in the relationship. Like day one.

So if you think about a relationship you had that ended poorly, where you loved the other person by giving your whole self to them, which you've been taught is called love, even though I don't think it is called love. And then... Look back on the first moment that she wanted something and you abandoned yourself to give it to her. And it's usually very early in the relationship. Like day one.

Exactly. And you just crushed right over that boundary, that very sensitive inner vigilance that's saying, this is how we stay whole, Andrew. This is how we stay in integrity. So most people with a job, with a relationship, with any choice they make, they can trace it back. When I pick up the pieces for them years later, they're like, oh, I knew that the first week.

Exactly. And you just crushed right over that boundary, that very sensitive inner vigilance that's saying, this is how we stay whole, Andrew. This is how we stay in integrity. So most people with a job, with a relationship, with any choice they make, they can trace it back. When I pick up the pieces for them years later, they're like, oh, I knew that the first week.

And I stayed in there for 20 years. So it's about, as I said earlier, being really granular in your experience of your own suffering and knowing that you are not here to suffer. There's this big thing that men in our society are taught that if, you know, their love songs, like, I would— I can't remember his name. He won the Nobel Prize for Literature.

And I stayed in there for 20 years. So it's about, as I said earlier, being really granular in your experience of your own suffering and knowing that you are not here to suffer. There's this big thing that men in our society are taught that if, you know, their love songs, like, I would— I can't remember his name. He won the Nobel Prize for Literature.

Until you're pretty sure you've heard everything there is to hear.

Until you're pretty sure you've heard everything there is to hear.

And, you know, I would crawl down the avenue black and blue to show my love, to make you feel my love. And it's like, okay, that's not showing me love. You don't have to hurt yourself to show me love. But maybe that's why you have to pull back six inches from your own eyes to brutalize yourself for other people that martyr love. archetype. No, it doesn't work.

And, you know, I would crawl down the avenue black and blue to show my love, to make you feel my love. And it's like, okay, that's not showing me love. You don't have to hurt yourself to show me love. But maybe that's why you have to pull back six inches from your own eyes to brutalize yourself for other people that martyr love. archetype. No, it doesn't work.

Ah, sweet. Okay, so smell the air. What's it like? How humid is it? What's the temperature?

Ah, sweet. Okay, so smell the air. What's it like? How humid is it? What's the temperature?

And repeat.

And repeat.

Yeah, I think because they identify me as a coach. They go to a therapist with relationship things, but people come to me with, my life's just not working, that feeling you were describing.

Yeah, I think because they identify me as a coach. They go to a therapist with relationship things, but people come to me with, my life's just not working, that feeling you were describing.

Yeah, the whole thing's not working, but in my job, I need to change my job. I need to get my purpose. I need to have my life's meaning. And it always ends up ending up to be about the relationship as well. Mm-hmm. Anything we do that's dysfunctional for any part of ourselves is dysfunctional for every part of ourselves. The way we do anything is the way we do everything.

Yeah, the whole thing's not working, but in my job, I need to change my job. I need to get my purpose. I need to have my life's meaning. And it always ends up ending up to be about the relationship as well. Mm-hmm. Anything we do that's dysfunctional for any part of ourselves is dysfunctional for every part of ourselves. The way we do anything is the way we do everything.

See that pattern?

See that pattern?

Because for a while you did things that hurt you and then you realized, no, the things that hurt me, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to do the things I like. When you bring another human being into it, when it's a romantic partnership, I think you still have the pattern of, I will do things that hurt me. I will abandon my sense of safety. I will go over my own experienced internal boundary.

Because for a while you did things that hurt you and then you realized, no, the things that hurt me, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to do the things I like. When you bring another human being into it, when it's a romantic partnership, I think you still have the pattern of, I will do things that hurt me. I will abandon my sense of safety. I will go over my own experienced internal boundary.

And you just haven't, you've done it in other areas of your life, but this is, yeah, this is a big one for you where you just haven't applied the same wisdom you've learned in other areas. And I would guess that it's because you don't feel that that's loving to the other person. If you decide you're not going to kill animals at your job, the people at your lab aren't going to be heartbroken.

And you just haven't, you've done it in other areas of your life, but this is, yeah, this is a big one for you where you just haven't applied the same wisdom you've learned in other areas. And I would guess that it's because you don't feel that that's loving to the other person. If you decide you're not going to kill animals at your job, the people at your lab aren't going to be heartbroken.

But if you decide you don't want to live a certain kind of life with another person, that person's heart could get broken. Or at least they could feel that way. They could genuinely feel pain. So I think maybe that's why it's a cutout thing, because changing your job doesn't hurt someone, but changing your relationship pattern somebody could get hurt.

But if you decide you don't want to live a certain kind of life with another person, that person's heart could get broken. Or at least they could feel that way. They could genuinely feel pain. So I think maybe that's why it's a cutout thing, because changing your job doesn't hurt someone, but changing your relationship pattern somebody could get hurt.

And if you don't change your pattern, someone will also get hurt.

And if you don't change your pattern, someone will also get hurt.

So there are different ways of reframing it. And one example, since you know a lot about addiction, if somebody is addicted to you pleasing them, you're pleasing them and going out of your integrity to please them, to give them whatever they want that pleases them. Your addiction as a codependent is giving them that emotional energy, whatever gets them high.

So there are different ways of reframing it. And one example, since you know a lot about addiction, if somebody is addicted to you pleasing them, you're pleasing them and going out of your integrity to please them, to give them whatever they want that pleases them. Your addiction as a codependent is giving them that emotional energy, whatever gets them high.

And their absorption of that energy and the imbalance that results, it's as if they are getting high on you. And An alcoholic, if you take away the bottle of booze, will tell you, you are hurting me. This is the worst thing you could ever do to me. You have no idea how much I'm suffering. And the thing you have to do in an intervention is, no, it's the alcohol that's doing the hurting.

And their absorption of that energy and the imbalance that results, it's as if they are getting high on you. And An alcoholic, if you take away the bottle of booze, will tell you, you are hurting me. This is the worst thing you could ever do to me. You have no idea how much I'm suffering. And the thing you have to do in an intervention is, no, it's the alcohol that's doing the hurting.

You know, it's the overgiving. It's allowing someone to consume your energy and to get high on it. That is an addiction. I will not let you do it. I will separate from you person to person if you continue in your addictive pattern. Doesn't mean that we won't be together in the great self and that we're all one self and we can all love each other forever.

You know, it's the overgiving. It's allowing someone to consume your energy and to get high on it. That is an addiction. I will not let you do it. I will separate from you person to person if you continue in your addictive pattern. Doesn't mean that we won't be together in the great self and that we're all one self and we can all love each other forever.

But it is not kind to feed someone's addiction to eating your energy. Does that make sense?

But it is not kind to feed someone's addiction to eating your energy. Does that make sense?

It's not. You have to do some tough love.

It's not. You have to do some tough love.

Yeah. This is not helping you. And they say, but I want more of you. And you say, no. no, you really don't. You want something false I was creating for you, and it's actually not me. You know, my friends who, why would you leave the church? Now you're lost to us. And I was like, no, I was always a gay non-Mormon.

Yeah. This is not helping you. And they say, but I want more of you. And you say, no. no, you really don't. You want something false I was creating for you, and it's actually not me. You know, my friends who, why would you leave the church? Now you're lost to us. And I was like, no, I was always a gay non-Mormon.

You know, I was just feeding you the story that I was a straight Mormon girl, you know, and I can't feed you that anymore. It's making you sick. It's making me sick. It's not true. And some of them I never saw it again. And some of them came around years later and said, oh, I figured it out. And some probably still are really happy and think I'm going to hell.

You know, I was just feeding you the story that I was a straight Mormon girl, you know, and I can't feed you that anymore. It's making you sick. It's making me sick. It's not true. And some of them I never saw it again. And some of them came around years later and said, oh, I figured it out. And some probably still are really happy and think I'm going to hell.

And by the way, for our listeners, this is not one magical day that you'll never live again. This is a typical day, but your life is now perfect. So it's an ordinary day, but in your perfect life. So put it out three years, five years, whatever makes it possible for you to allow that – your ideal life could form in that time.

And by the way, for our listeners, this is not one magical day that you'll never live again. This is a typical day, but your life is now perfect. So it's an ordinary day, but in your perfect life. So put it out three years, five years, whatever makes it possible for you to allow that – your ideal life could form in that time.

It's an innocent mistake.

It's an innocent mistake.

Does that resonate? Oh, totally. Yeah. Here's the thing. You don't expect your dog to pretend it's not a dog. You don't expect your dog... to stop loving walks and chasing a ball and just being a dog. And when it's tired, it'll go to sleep. But often when we fall in love, we try to make ourselves not who we are and try to become the person that will make the other maximally thrilled with us.

Does that resonate? Oh, totally. Yeah. Here's the thing. You don't expect your dog to pretend it's not a dog. You don't expect your dog... to stop loving walks and chasing a ball and just being a dog. And when it's tired, it'll go to sleep. But often when we fall in love, we try to make ourselves not who we are and try to become the person that will make the other maximally thrilled with us.

And I know exactly what you're talking about. I have thrown, like I love to give money to people. Yeah, I do too. Because it makes them happy. And then it never works. Well, it works out only in cases where it feels true in my heart. If I overgive because someone's there saying, I need, and it doesn't feel good in the giving, I am not being a dog. A dog would say, no, this is where my limits are.

And I know exactly what you're talking about. I have thrown, like I love to give money to people. Yeah, I do too. Because it makes them happy. And then it never works. Well, it works out only in cases where it feels true in my heart. If I overgive because someone's there saying, I need, and it doesn't feel good in the giving, I am not being a dog. A dog would say, no, this is where my limits are.

I'm going to go lie down on the floor and sleep. but I will get an extra job to give money to people that I don't want to give money to after the first little while. So we bend ourselves out of our true being. And I think the reason we love dogs so much is that they love, but they love truly. They love honestly. They don't pretend to be something they're not.

I'm going to go lie down on the floor and sleep. but I will get an extra job to give money to people that I don't want to give money to after the first little while. So we bend ourselves out of our true being. And I think the reason we love dogs so much is that they love, but they love truly. They love honestly. They don't pretend to be something they're not.

You'll find as you do it many times, the time necessary for it to happen becomes much shorter. Anyway, so you get up, look around, you sit up in the bed, look around, who's next to you? What does the dog look like? What does the room look like?

You'll find as you do it many times, the time necessary for it to happen becomes much shorter. Anyway, so you get up, look around, you sit up in the bed, look around, who's next to you? What does the dog look like? What does the room look like?

And they don't have the empathy that says, if your leg is broken, I will break my own leg and lie down next to you so that I feel exactly the same pain you're feeling. It is not empathy to feel everything the other person is feeling. Take the broken leg example.

And they don't have the empathy that says, if your leg is broken, I will break my own leg and lie down next to you so that I feel exactly the same pain you're feeling. It is not empathy to feel everything the other person is feeling. Take the broken leg example.

If you got hit by a car, you're lying there screaming in anguish, and I felt your feelings so strongly that I couldn't cope, and I fell down in a faint. I had a client once who has passed away now, so I'll tell this anecdote. Her husband was like you. He would give himself away. And she gladly consumed all his life energy. And one day he had a heart attack, a near fatal heart attack.

If you got hit by a car, you're lying there screaming in anguish, and I felt your feelings so strongly that I couldn't cope, and I fell down in a faint. I had a client once who has passed away now, so I'll tell this anecdote. Her husband was like you. He would give himself away. And she gladly consumed all his life energy. And one day he had a heart attack, a near fatal heart attack.

And she called me and said, I couldn't get him to take care of my needs while he was having this heart attack. He just had it. And I was like, yeah, he couldn't help that. And she said, well, I told him. He said, I can't be there for you right now. I'm having a heart attack. And she said, you're not the one whose husband may be dying from a heart attack.

And she called me and said, I couldn't get him to take care of my needs while he was having this heart attack. He just had it. And I was like, yeah, he couldn't help that. And she said, well, I told him. He said, I can't be there for you right now. I'm having a heart attack. And she said, you're not the one whose husband may be dying from a heart attack.

She was so into consuming his energy that she actually said that with a straight face. She was expecting him to give empathy. That's not empathy. That's selling yourself out. Empathy acknowledges self-other awareness. There are four components to real empathy. Self-other awareness, I am not you.

She was so into consuming his energy that she actually said that with a straight face. She was expecting him to give empathy. That's not empathy. That's selling yourself out. Empathy acknowledges self-other awareness. There are four components to real empathy. Self-other awareness, I am not you.

As Byron Katie, one of my favorite spiritual teachers says, my favorite thing about separate bodies is that when you hurt, I don't. It's not my turn.

As Byron Katie, one of my favorite spiritual teachers says, my favorite thing about separate bodies is that when you hurt, I don't. It's not my turn.

Yeah. Another one is emotion regulation. So you see something that's horrific and you can like, this is where you can use your skills dealing with your emotions. You bring it down. Okay. I'm a surgeon. I'm dealing with a horrible ER accident. I can't feel that. I have to get to work. So that's emotion regulation. You can do that. Self-awareness, emotion regulation. Yeah.

Yeah. Another one is emotion regulation. So you see something that's horrific and you can like, this is where you can use your skills dealing with your emotions. You bring it down. Okay. I'm a surgeon. I'm dealing with a horrible ER accident. I can't feel that. I have to get to work. So that's emotion regulation. You can do that. Self-awareness, emotion regulation. Yeah.

Two other components, but those are the two that I think we really need to focus on. If you hurt, I don't. It's not my turn. And when you're hurting and I start to hurt too much because you're hurting, I can bring myself back into my own body, relax, and be contented in my own skin so that I can be present for you. So here's the thing I love.

Two other components, but those are the two that I think we really need to focus on. If you hurt, I don't. It's not my turn. And when you're hurting and I start to hurt too much because you're hurting, I can bring myself back into my own body, relax, and be contented in my own skin so that I can be present for you. So here's the thing I love.

It's a short quote from a poem by Hafiz, who was a 13th century Persian poet. It's so simple. Remember it, though. Troubled? Then stay with me, for I am not.

It's a short quote from a poem by Hafiz, who was a 13th century Persian poet. It's so simple. Remember it, though. Troubled? Then stay with me, for I am not.

Yeah, that's being yourself in a relationship. Then stay with me for I am not. But I'm really, really unhappy. I see that. And I'm not unhappy. But I really, really want to be together. I really see that that's how you feel. And I don't want it.

Yeah, that's being yourself in a relationship. Then stay with me for I am not. But I'm really, really unhappy. I see that. And I'm not unhappy. But I really, really want to be together. I really see that that's how you feel. And I don't want it.

You make it your job to make them happy. And it is never your job to make another person happy. You cannot do it. Happiness is an inside job. You cannot make another person happy. You can't be – You can't go far enough into someone else's sadness to make them happy. You can't go far enough into their sickness to make them well.

You make it your job to make them happy. And it is never your job to make another person happy. You cannot do it. Happiness is an inside job. You cannot make another person happy. You can't be – You can't go far enough into someone else's sadness to make them happy. You can't go far enough into their sickness to make them well.

You have to get out of your own sadness and your own sickness and then stay in your integrity with love for them and model what it is to be in your own skin, which is the only one you're ever going to have. My oldest child as a teenager, I was so over-involved and everything. And they gave me a song called Let Me Fall by a man who had fallen from a tree and he broke his spine. He was a paraplegic.

You have to get out of your own sadness and your own sickness and then stay in your integrity with love for them and model what it is to be in your own skin, which is the only one you're ever going to have. My oldest child as a teenager, I was so over-involved and everything. And they gave me a song called Let Me Fall by a man who had fallen from a tree and he broke his spine. He was a paraplegic.

And he just says, the one I will become will catch me. Don't catch me anymore. Don't catch me anymore. And it was so hard as a parent to let my child suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. And what they were telling me, they, them pronouns, was that this is my life and my suffering is my birthright. And I am here to figure it out as I go.

And he just says, the one I will become will catch me. Don't catch me anymore. Don't catch me anymore. And it was so hard as a parent to let my child suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. And what they were telling me, they, them pronouns, was that this is my life and my suffering is my birthright. And I am here to figure it out as I go.

And you are not loving me when you shove yourself into my affairs to try to take away my suffering. Let me fall.

And you are not loving me when you shove yourself into my affairs to try to take away my suffering. Let me fall.

You need a wise hedonist in your life. Right.

You need a wise hedonist in your life. Right.

But only in the eyes of the other person. If you come back into your own integrity, okay, did I promise to always give more than I can? Well, I did by my actions. I established a precedent. Isn't that a promise? They say it's a promise. No, or if I did make a promise, I was in error. I apologize, I made a mistake. I promised something I couldn't really give.

But only in the eyes of the other person. If you come back into your own integrity, okay, did I promise to always give more than I can? Well, I did by my actions. I established a precedent. Isn't that a promise? They say it's a promise. No, or if I did make a promise, I was in error. I apologize, I made a mistake. I promised something I couldn't really give.

Have you heard the term extinction burst?

Have you heard the term extinction burst?

Something tells me you could protect yourself pretty well.

Something tells me you could protect yourself pretty well.

No, it's when pigeons are, well.

No, it's when pigeons are, well.

The galactic pigeons.

The galactic pigeons.

It's about any animal.

It's about any animal.

I love all the animals. Anyway, if you give pigeons, they peck a lever and they get a pellet at unpredictable intervals, which is highly motivating. It's the most highly motivating thing they can do. And then if the pellets stop coming, the pigeons go bananas.

I love all the animals. Anyway, if you give pigeons, they peck a lever and they get a pellet at unpredictable intervals, which is highly motivating. It's the most highly motivating thing they can do. And then if the pellets stop coming, the pigeons go bananas.

Peck, peck, peck, peck, peck, peck. They pick it a lot more. They pick it angrily. They insist that the researchers promise them those pellets. And then they just give up and go away because the pellets stop coming. When you have been giving too much and you realize that and you say to stay in my integrity, I have to pull back and care for myself and that's where I stop.

Peck, peck, peck, peck, peck, peck. They pick it a lot more. They pick it angrily. They insist that the researchers promise them those pellets. And then they just give up and go away because the pellets stop coming. When you have been giving too much and you realize that and you say to stay in my integrity, I have to pull back and care for myself and that's where I stop.

The other person will put on an extinction burst for sure. And your job is to stay inside your integrity until they stop pecking. And they'll be much more healthy. I had a golden retriever once who would just come and bark to be petted. Big, huge dog. But he was young. And it was so annoying.

The other person will put on an extinction burst for sure. And your job is to stay inside your integrity until they stop pecking. And they'll be much more healthy. I had a golden retriever once who would just come and bark to be petted. Big, huge dog. But he was young. And it was so annoying.

Look around the room. What color are the walls? What pictures are hanging there, if any?

Look around the room. What color are the walls? What pictures are hanging there, if any?

And we had to get a dog behaviorist to come in because he was just barking at everybody constantly to be petted. And she said, when he does that, get up, walk across the room, go into another room and shut the door in his face. And we were like, oh! That would be cruel. She's like, it's not cruel. He'll understand it. And I'll never forget watching him bark at someone.

And we had to get a dog behaviorist to come in because he was just barking at everybody constantly to be petted. And she said, when he does that, get up, walk across the room, go into another room and shut the door in his face. And we were like, oh! That would be cruel. She's like, it's not cruel. He'll understand it. And I'll never forget watching him bark at someone.

And they got up, walked out, shut the door in his face. He stood by the door and went, rah. And he went, eh. He went over and laid down. He was like, all right, well, that didn't work. And, you know, that's ultimately what happens when you stay inside your integrity and don't let people play with you that way. Don't let them tug you around.

And they got up, walked out, shut the door in his face. He stood by the door and went, rah. And he went, eh. He went over and laid down. He was like, all right, well, that didn't work. And, you know, that's ultimately what happens when you stay inside your integrity and don't let people play with you that way. Don't let them tug you around.

Yeah, I know. And I call it what I what I in the book that I just wrote called Beyond Anxiety. I talk about when people like you live that way from their joy, they begin to create economic ecosystems. You create so much value that in multiple ways, people start to. you can get streams of income.

Yeah, I know. And I call it what I what I in the book that I just wrote called Beyond Anxiety. I talk about when people like you live that way from their joy, they begin to create economic ecosystems. You create so much value that in multiple ways, people start to. you can get streams of income.

Andrew Wyeth fan. Me too. Which one? Andrew or NC?

Andrew Wyeth fan. Me too. Which one? Andrew or NC?

Did you break the heart of the other lab?

Did you break the heart of the other lab?

We live in this weird economy where you're supposed to get a job and it's all based on factory work. You're supposed to go to a place and do something you don't really like to get your little allowance and then you go home. And that has only existed for the last couple of hundred years since the industrial revolution. Before that, people existed for hundreds of thousands of years doing what?

We live in this weird economy where you're supposed to get a job and it's all based on factory work. You're supposed to go to a place and do something you don't really like to get your little allowance and then you go home. And that has only existed for the last couple of hundred years since the industrial revolution. Before that, people existed for hundreds of thousands of years doing what?

Hunting, fishing, gardening, weaving, singing songs, telling stories, doing the things that we do as hobbies.

Hunting, fishing, gardening, weaving, singing songs, telling stories, doing the things that we do as hobbies.

But we have this weird mindset that says, no, if I do things that bring me joy like a hobby does, the things that people have been doing for hundreds of thousands of years, if I just put my joy out there and see what I can do with the wild new creations of our particular time, if I don't do the job, I'm being weird somehow and it won't work.

But we have this weird mindset that says, no, if I do things that bring me joy like a hobby does, the things that people have been doing for hundreds of thousands of years, if I just put my joy out there and see what I can do with the wild new creations of our particular time, if I don't do the job, I'm being weird somehow and it won't work.

But what I'm seeing is the economic structures of this society are all being fractured. They're falling apart around us. And it's people who are afraid. I used to watch this video of a tsunami that hit Sendai, Japan in 2011, I think it was. And this wave comes in and it eats a city in six minutes, this one wave, and you watch the whole city be ripped to shreds in six minutes.

But what I'm seeing is the economic structures of this society are all being fractured. They're falling apart around us. And it's people who are afraid. I used to watch this video of a tsunami that hit Sendai, Japan in 2011, I think it was. And this wave comes in and it eats a city in six minutes, this one wave, and you watch the whole city be ripped to shreds in six minutes.

And people are running into the buildings, and then the buildings start to collapse, and you know there are people in there. And I watched this, and I thought, there is so much change in our culture. It's like that wave has hit us. And then accidentally, I hit something in YouTube or whatever, and it switched to Mike Parsons surfing one of the biggest waves ever filmed.

And people are running into the buildings, and then the buildings start to collapse, and you know there are people in there. And I watched this, and I thought, there is so much change in our culture. It's like that wave has hit us. And then accidentally, I hit something in YouTube or whatever, and it switched to Mike Parsons surfing one of the biggest waves ever filmed.

It was a rogue wave, and it went up like 70 feet. And the camera pulls back, and here's this basically naked man on a board saying, with a wave that is like the wrath of God. And he's this tiny little figure. The wave is seven stories tall. And he comes riding down the face of that and it breaks over him and you think, oh, he's dead. And then he shoots out of the spray, just like shouting.

It was a rogue wave, and it went up like 70 feet. And the camera pulls back, and here's this basically naked man on a board saying, with a wave that is like the wrath of God. And he's this tiny little figure. The wave is seven stories tall. And he comes riding down the face of that and it breaks over him and you think, oh, he's dead. And then he shoots out of the spray, just like shouting.

And I thought, those are the choices we have right now. We can run into the institutions that we think will keep us safe and change will crush us and drown us and kill us. Or we can deal with the fact that there's a huge wave of change in our society right now and everything's changing at an accelerating rate.

And I thought, those are the choices we have right now. We can run into the institutions that we think will keep us safe and change will crush us and drown us and kill us. Or we can deal with the fact that there's a huge wave of change in our society right now and everything's changing at an accelerating rate.

And we can risk running out naked and just with our joy and just balance on our joy and let the wave take us for a ride. You're surfing. That's – you are an example to the world of someone who is balanced in his joy except in relationships, but you'll get over that.

And we can risk running out naked and just with our joy and just balance on our joy and let the wave take us for a ride. You're surfing. That's – you are an example to the world of someone who is balanced in his joy except in relationships, but you'll get over that.

There's a woman hanging on to the end of your surfboard.

There's a woman hanging on to the end of your surfboard.

Do an ideal day with that relationship and it could be the weirdest thing you've ever heard of. It will work. I promise you, I have a very weird relationship life.

Do an ideal day with that relationship and it could be the weirdest thing you've ever heard of. It will work. I promise you, I have a very weird relationship life.

I can't believe I'm going to say this on this podcast. So I have two partners.

I can't believe I'm going to say this on this podcast. So I have two partners.

One was the very first relationship I ever had with a woman. That was 20-some years ago. And then I was living on my ranch and meditating all day. And my partner, Karen, came to me. And this Australian poet, Rowan, was staying on our ranch with some other people. And Karen sat me down. She said, Marty. I have to tell you, I'm having very strong, I don't know, maybe maternal feelings toward Rowan.

One was the very first relationship I ever had with a woman. That was 20-some years ago. And then I was living on my ranch and meditating all day. And my partner, Karen, came to me. And this Australian poet, Rowan, was staying on our ranch with some other people. And Karen sat me down. She said, Marty. I have to tell you, I'm having very strong, I don't know, maybe maternal feelings toward Rowan.

I was like, no, they're not maternal. I'm not getting a maternal energy. And I got hit by this blast of joy, joy, joy. It was like that white light thing. It was like, and I said, you're in love with her. This is amazing. Tell her to come in. I'll go to the guest room. You guys can have that. I was just like, happy, happy, happy.

I was like, no, they're not maternal. I'm not getting a maternal energy. And I got hit by this blast of joy, joy, joy. It was like that white light thing. It was like, and I said, you're in love with her. This is amazing. Tell her to come in. I'll go to the guest room. You guys can have that. I was just like, happy, happy, happy.

And I looked for jealousy and I looked for, I was like, this isn't supposed to work this way. So Rowan came up and we all sat around talking and we sat around talking a lot more. And we all sat on the same couch talking, going, this isn't weird, is it? And after a couple of weeks, we realized everybody was in love with everybody and we couldn't live without each other.

And I looked for jealousy and I looked for, I was like, this isn't supposed to work this way. So Rowan came up and we all sat around talking and we sat around talking a lot more. And we all sat on the same couch talking, going, this isn't weird, is it? And after a couple of weeks, we realized everybody was in love with everybody and we couldn't live without each other.

And we have a three-year-old named Lila, who's delightful. Awesome. And it is, we call it, Feeling good by looking weird. And you can cut it out of the podcast if it's too.

And we have a three-year-old named Lila, who's delightful. Awesome. And it is, we call it, Feeling good by looking weird. And you can cut it out of the podcast if it's too.

It's a magnificent painting.

It's a magnificent painting.

But I would love you to really sit down, get incredibly authentic with yourself and say, honestly, if I had the perfect romantic life, what would it look like? And be what you will call very selfish, what I will call very much in your integrity. Don't tell yourself any lies about what you really want. Right.

But I would love you to really sit down, get incredibly authentic with yourself and say, honestly, if I had the perfect romantic life, what would it look like? And be what you will call very selfish, what I will call very much in your integrity. Don't tell yourself any lies about what you really want. Right.

So it's on the wall there.

So it's on the wall there.

Yeah, it's very strange, but both Karen and I felt like there was a tremendous absence in a couple of years before Roe came into our life. It's like we're a three-legged stool. Two-legged stools do not make sense to us. They fall down. Whatever comes into your vision of joy... Whatever makes you feel free, write it down and read it often.

Yeah, it's very strange, but both Karen and I felt like there was a tremendous absence in a couple of years before Roe came into our life. It's like we're a three-legged stool. Two-legged stools do not make sense to us. They fall down. Whatever comes into your vision of joy... Whatever makes you feel free, write it down and read it often.

And when you get into a relationship, read it even more often.

And when you get into a relationship, read it even more often.

And let the other person read it.

And let the other person read it.

Why not? It's your perfect life.

Why not? It's your perfect life.

It's like a prenup. Here's what I'm after. Don't let me do the things in column B. It won't end well. Okay.

It's like a prenup. Here's what I'm after. Don't let me do the things in column B. It won't end well. Okay.

I hope so. And if not, I read a book by Samantha Irby, a wonderful comedian. And she says, here's what you say when people tell you that you're horrible and you're doing something awful. You say, I like it.

I hope so. And if not, I read a book by Samantha Irby, a wonderful comedian. And she says, here's what you say when people tell you that you're horrible and you're doing something awful. You say, I like it.

And also just notice that you're creating a theme, which is – the theme is I will go out as myself and I will reach and strive for things. And I'm not here to be helped. I'm here to do hard things and to do them for the joy of it. So that's what that painting is about. Strong symbol of who you are. So get out of the bed and your partner's still sleeping, the dog's still sleeping.

And also just notice that you're creating a theme, which is – the theme is I will go out as myself and I will reach and strive for things. And I'm not here to be helped. I'm here to do hard things and to do them for the joy of it. So that's what that painting is about. Strong symbol of who you are. So get out of the bed and your partner's still sleeping, the dog's still sleeping.

Yeah, I really like it. I like it a lot.

Yeah, I really like it. I like it a lot.

Who can't? Like if it's all love, nobody can really, you can outlove almost anything. You're furious at me? I like it. I just outloved you. And I think that's why Jesus said, you know, charity never faileth. It's not that you're going to win everything if you are a loving person. It's that no matter what happens, it's like that self. You're suffering, you're pain, you're codependency, whatever.

Who can't? Like if it's all love, nobody can really, you can outlove almost anything. You're furious at me? I like it. I just outloved you. And I think that's why Jesus said, you know, charity never faileth. It's not that you're going to win everything if you are a loving person. It's that no matter what happens, it's like that self. You're suffering, you're pain, you're codependency, whatever.

It loves it all. Bring it. It loves it all. And that means that no matter what you come at me with, I can hold that in a field of love. And my experience is love.

It loves it all. Bring it. It loves it all. And that means that no matter what you come at me with, I can hold that in a field of love. And my experience is love.

I don't know if it's from Jesus, but I think it's in Paul. It says, charity never faileth. You know, love never fails. And it's because I can say, I hate myself. Yes, but I love the part of me that hates myself. Just outloved you.

I don't know if it's from Jesus, but I think it's in Paul. It says, charity never faileth. You know, love never fails. And it's because I can say, I hate myself. Yes, but I love the part of me that hates myself. Just outloved you.

That's what I was about to use that same word. I think in order to be to become stable, I always say that the raw material for any good experience is its opposite. So I was messed, I was effed up beyond belief. There's snafu, these are both military terms, snafu means situation normal, all fucked up. FUBAR means fucked up beyond all recognition. I was FUBAR. Now I occasionally get snafu.

That's what I was about to use that same word. I think in order to be to become stable, I always say that the raw material for any good experience is its opposite. So I was messed, I was effed up beyond belief. There's snafu, these are both military terms, snafu means situation normal, all fucked up. FUBAR means fucked up beyond all recognition. I was FUBAR. Now I occasionally get snafu.

But I was so FUBAR that the suffering was so intense that when I learned to come home, the contrast was very sharp. And I never, ever want to... I never want to leave the consciousness that that light is always with us and we can feel it if we're honest. And that's all we have to do. Be honest. And there it is. Boom. It's got us.

But I was so FUBAR that the suffering was so intense that when I learned to come home, the contrast was very sharp. And I never, ever want to... I never want to leave the consciousness that that light is always with us and we can feel it if we're honest. And that's all we have to do. Be honest. And there it is. Boom. It's got us.

Go look out the window. Where are you? And you can be anywhere.

Go look out the window. Where are you? And you can be anywhere.

The first time I remember worrying about this, I was four. And I'm 10 years older than you are. But I knew at four that I was here to try to help with something. And as I grew up, it just wouldn't go away, this feeling that I was supposed to help with something. And in my teens, it became, I need to help change the way people think? I don't know.

The first time I remember worrying about this, I was four. And I'm 10 years older than you are. But I knew at four that I was here to try to help with something. And as I grew up, it just wouldn't go away, this feeling that I was supposed to help with something. And in my teens, it became, I need to help change the way people think? I don't know.

And then I started noticing other people who seemed to be like me. And I'd be like... think they're on the same team I'm on. And I was like, what team? What am I talking about? And it all came to a head when I was in South Africa in the wilderness. And I had a dream that my ancestors were coming to visit me. And I thought it was funny.

And then I started noticing other people who seemed to be like me. And I'd be like... think they're on the same team I'm on. And I was like, what team? What am I talking about? And it all came to a head when I was in South Africa in the wilderness. And I had a dream that my ancestors were coming to visit me. And I thought it was funny.

So I told it to some friends from the Shangan tribe who reacted like this. And then they ran. And I was like, what did I And later that night, we're all sitting around the fire. There are lions roaring. They bring this little woman from Mozambique, and she's a sangoma. She's a shaman. And she did her divinatory system, which is she threw the bones for me.

So I told it to some friends from the Shangan tribe who reacted like this. And then they ran. And I was like, what did I And later that night, we're all sitting around the fire. There are lions roaring. They bring this little woman from Mozambique, and she's a sangoma. She's a shaman. And she did her divinatory system, which is she threw the bones for me.

Because if you had a dream I had, you have to see a sangoma right away, or bad things will happen. So she said stuff about me that was true, but she could have Googled it, you know. And It was weird. When she looked at me, I felt like these ice needles going through me. It was not cute, but it was very intense.

Because if you had a dream I had, you have to see a sangoma right away, or bad things will happen. So she said stuff about me that was true, but she could have Googled it, you know. And It was weird. When she looked at me, I felt like these ice needles going through me. It was not cute, but it was very intense.

And what she said was, there are people being born to be healers all over the world, just like there are in the traditional tribes. You need to go find them and tell them what they're here to do. They're here to heal the world, and they need the wisdom that the traditional people had, and they need their technology. And it was so interesting because she was like confused.

And what she said was, there are people being born to be healers all over the world, just like there are in the traditional tribes. You need to go find them and tell them what they're here to do. They're here to heal the world, and they need the wisdom that the traditional people had, and they need their technology. And it was so interesting because she was like confused.

She acted very frightened and confused by what she was saying to me. She had to get a group of people behind her who would chant, we agree, we agree, because she was freaked out. But I think that in every traditional experience, group of 100 to 150 people. There were a few healers that were recognized by the elders as people who were highly sensitive. They were interested in nature and science.

She acted very frightened and confused by what she was saying to me. She had to get a group of people behind her who would chant, we agree, we agree, because she was freaked out. But I think that in every traditional experience, group of 100 to 150 people. There were a few healers that were recognized by the elders as people who were highly sensitive. They were interested in nature and science.

They were interested in animals. They were interested in the mystery. They were interested in the arts. They were performers, but they were also very introverted and thinky-thinky. It's an archetype of healing, of medicine person, the coaches I coach, I call it wayfinders, which is a term from an anthropologist. If you're born in that archetype, if you have that phenotype,

They were interested in animals. They were interested in the mystery. They were interested in the arts. They were performers, but they were also very introverted and thinky-thinky. It's an archetype of healing, of medicine person, the coaches I coach, I call it wayfinders, which is a term from an anthropologist. If you're born in that archetype, if you have that phenotype,

I believe it's a phenotype, and I believe it crops up in every 100 to 150 people several times. And our culture has no word for it and no path for it.

I believe it's a phenotype, and I believe it crops up in every 100 to 150 people several times. And our culture has no word for it and no path for it.

But if we are going to save the world, we will draw on whatever was born into us that makes us want to heal things, and we will use the technologies we've developed, and we will use our joy and our refusal to participate in the nonsense of our culture And we will hold firm and we will try to change the way humanity lives on this planet.

But if we are going to save the world, we will draw on whatever was born into us that makes us want to heal things, and we will use the technologies we've developed, and we will use our joy and our refusal to participate in the nonsense of our culture And we will hold firm and we will try to change the way humanity lives on this planet.

Uh-huh. Like a river.

Uh-huh. Like a river.

And I don't know which way it's going to go, but I'm in the game. And I kind of think you are too.

And I don't know which way it's going to go, but I'm in the game. And I kind of think you are too.

Same to you. You're just looking in the mirror. Thank you.

Same to you. You're just looking in the mirror. Thank you.

So are you looking at a small town, a city, or do you just live out in the mountains by yourself?

So are you looking at a small town, a city, or do you just live out in the mountains by yourself?

Beautiful. So just look around, smell the pine, aspen air, and then you go into your perfect bathroom, and it's beautiful. You could go through a lot of description if you wanted to, but I'm going to rush through that to get to the interesting parts. So you take a look at yourself in the mirror. Your body is beautiful. absolutely perfect. Of course, in your case, that's not an aspirational thing.

You're already there. But make it even better.

There's a real clarity. I've seen it. I don't know if you've worked with people who are dying or who are really ill. Sometimes you'll see a shift in the transparency of their eyes. There actually seems to be a radiance coming from the eyes or gathered around the eyes. That's what I'm sort of thinking as you talk.

This is so interesting because my friend Liz Gilbert of Eat, Pray, Love fame, she wrote something before she was famous where she dressed as a man for a week and walked around. And she's tall and broad-shouldered and has, you know, great chin. So she could look male. And she got herself all dressed up male and they faked a beard and everything.

And then she had her friends come and a male friend said to her, no, Liz – Pull yourself back six inches away from your own eyes. And she did it. And he said, now you're looking like a man.

And that's really, really interesting that you would say that exact distance.

I have an N of two, you and Liz Gilbert. Okay, all right. But I think it's very interesting that you said that, that you're forward and your eyes, and the idea that the eyes are the parts of our brains that are showing. It's fascinating that she had that experience, too.

So I would love to—I'll be asking people from now on, if you're designated male, identified male, do you feel you have to pull your— sort of vitality back from the world. And I suspect it's true. I suspect it's true just from interacting with people.

ask women if they... I think it's more vulnerable to be right on the surface of your life and in the surface of your eyes, but it's also much more... There's a sensuousness to the world when you're fully present that I know I had to shut down like when I was in the Ivy League. I had to pull myself back and sink down, and that's a typically male environment. I think it's about materialism and

conquest and oppositional thinking as much as gender.

Yes.

You just did it. Yeah. I know how to do this. It's like visible.

That was so interesting that you just did that. Wow. Okay. The problem I'm having now is that I have, and I quote, an interest-based attention system. I love that. ADHD, which means I pay attention to things that interest me, which means that I literally follow squirrels away from business meetings.

Okay.

And now you go to your closet and you're going to get dressed. Open your closet, which is the closet of clothing you have in your ideal life, and just look at the different outfits you have. The different, like how many kinds of shoes are there?

Oh, sweet. So whose photographs are there? Do you see any photographs you don't recognize at this moment?

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so then you go through the whole day, and I can spend at least an hour going through this with someone. And the important thing is that you do something I call the three Ns. You notice what comes into the field of your imagination, but you don't try too hard to see it specifically. And then as you go through, you sort of narrow down what it might be.

And if the name of that thing comes up, you can then name it. But, for example, in one of my ideal days, I was writing short – pieces of writing that I was interacting with people very regularly about it. And I couldn't even imagine what kind of job that was. And then an editor in Manhattan knocked over a manuscript I'd written. And she was the editor of a women's magazine.

And she called me and asked me to be a columnist. I was like, I was always a magazine columnist for like 20 years. And it was exactly what was in The Ideal Day, but I had not named it. I didn't know that you could live in Phoenix and be a columnist for New York magazines. So notice what you're doing.

You put on your very comfy T-shirt, very cool black jeans, your one watch, your belt, your Adidas shirt. And you go do something really fun with people you really love in a place you really enjoy.

Oh, yeah. See, now I skipped a thing. You're supposed to go down to breakfast and see if you've got a family.

Wonderful.

My interest-based attention system just went, oh, really? You do it for other people? Oh yeah.

So your kids are helping you. How many kids are there?

No. In your imagination. You can have 20 if you want.

You never know. It could happen. The important thing about this exercise is you don't get logical about it. You don't think what's manageable and what's probable. And you just see who's there.

All right.

It's not crazy. This is wonderful.

Fabulous. So you're very, very close to your ideal day right now. And as you said, I don't know the mechanisms that get put in play. Certainly directed attention. You're now like a guided missile that knows where its target is, or at least what the target looks like. And we all make countless decisions every day. And you can think of it as a lot of little whys branching out.

And if you've got this in your mind really clearly, you're going to take the option that leads to it. That's what I tell people. It's logical, directed attention, except that in many cases, I have to say, a miracle occurs. My favorite cartoon is this physics equation with these two physicists, and there are all these symbols on both sides of the board.

In the middle in brackets, it says, a miracle occurs. I love it.

Yeah. And I really believe the source of all my work, you know, I was getting my doctorate at Harvard. I'd gotten my bachelor's there. I'd been there since I was 17. And halfway through my doctorate, during that time, I'd gotten married, had a child. My second child was prenatally diagnosed with Down syndrome. And I was six months into the pregnancy almost. And I had like two weeks left.

to make a decision, and I'm politically very pro-choice, and I would, again, never judge anyone who made the other decision, but I couldn't do it. I was already sort of bonded to him. And I kept asking the question of myself, what makes a human life worth living?

Because the doctors at the Harvard Medical Clinic and all my advisors told me, you have got to, at the very least, institutionalize this child the second he's born. Institutionalize? Oh, yeah, for sure. They said, you're throwing your career away. The head of the obstetrics committee, there were five obstetricians, and the chief dude—

came in, and there I was sitting on a bed in my little hospital napkin, and he said, this is like a cancerous tumor. You've got to let us take it out. It will ruin your life. And I just looked at him, and I had the weirdest experience ever. I looked at this very intimidating guy, and I'm there sort of young and naked and pregnant, and... suddenly it was like I could see two faces on him.

And one was this very stern, knowledgeable doctor, and the other one was a terrified child, terrified. And it was so striking that I started looking at him strangely. I'm sure he thought I was completely nuts. But I looked at him and I thought, you're afraid. You're afraid of this baby.

And I realized – that's when I realized that a lot of people don't go to Harvard because they know they're smart. They go there because they're afraid they're stupid.

And I thought he's afraid of the – in quotes, stupid little boy inside me because he's afraid of the stupid little boy inside him. He's terrified of being the person he's worked so hard not to be. He's afraid of being like my son. And he thinks that should be thrown away. And that was the point at which I said, I will not make my decisions based on social pressure.

I have to do something from a very, very deep place within. And so I kept that. I mean, he's home right now. You know, we're having a great time.

Adam, my son Adam.

Yes, the very first thing he ever did in his life was the doctor pulled him out of my body and I saw this arc of urine go straight into the doctor's face. And I was like so proud of my child at that moment. I thought if only I'd thought to do that.

That's why I told that long story that when I had to make that decision, it was the first time I had dropped everything conscious and logical from my mind and come from a place that was, I believe it's part of our neurological apparatus, but the cognitive structures are so, cognitive function is just a tiny fraction of what our whole nervous systems are able to detect and tell us.

And for the first time, I was making a decision from every cell in my body instead of just my, you know, neocortex. And I realized my life is not meant to go like his life. And the person in the next bed, their life isn't meant to be like mine. But we all have this... programmed into us somehow.

And when we start to leave it, in my last book, I called it leaving our integrity, because to be an integrity just means to be one thing. It doesn't have any moral implications in the original, like Latin, it just means integer, one thing. So if we were born knowing who we are,

But at some point, usually not long after birth, we get socialized away from expressing exactly what our own truth is telling us. We get socialized to behave in ways that please other people. Very simple. And as you're describing it, I had a great life. I had a lab, I had a dog, I had a house. Those are all socially recognized items that say your life is working.

but they have nothing to do with your personal destiny.

I would say you don't even have to go back and forth. You can do it all at once. You can feel, you can think, and you can stay in the driver's seat and not be overwhelmed, either intellectually or emotionally. But I think it has a lot to do with, you were talking about Asian, Eastern, like meditation practices.

There's a little exercise I like to do with people where if they're struggling with a bad habit, I say, imagine the part of you that is always doing the bad thing, like smoking 20 packs a day or whatever. Imagine them as a wild thing in your left hand. And then imagine the part of you that hates them and says, stop smoking in your right hand and look at them and say,

begin to see that they're both well-meaning, they're both exhausted, and you can wish them both well. So the wild child part is not thinking, it's just feeling. The controlling part is not feeling, it's just thinking. And if I can get people, and I have them put their hands out because I know it's going to activate both sides of their brains, and then I have them wish these people well.

May you be well, may you be happy. When they can feel compassion from both sides of themselves, then I ask them, so who are you? And who they've become is a compassionate witness. which is not thinking and it's not feeling in the way we, it's not emotional. The word emotion means movement, disturbance. This part of one's being is not ever disturbed or moved.

It's totally still and totally peaceful and completely compassionate.

Yes, it is. And Dick Schwartz, who came up with the model of internal family systems theory, I don't know if you've had him on the show.

Yeah.

Yeah, Richard Schwartz. Anyway, I was talking to him and he said, there is this part, we all have different parts. There's a part of you that feels like a little kid and wants to curl up in bed. There's a part of you that wants to go rule the world, whatever your parts are. So he talks to people about these different parts.

And then sometimes they say, oh, I've just come up against, there's someone here who's very still, who's very huge, who's very kind. And he calls it self with a capital S. And he says after thousands of patients, he'll say, what part of you is that? And they say, oh, this isn't a part like the others. This is who I am. This is who I am. And he believes that it's just one unified self.

And for me, if I don't. find and lock into that self, I am immediately swept away by my emotions in my brain, just like in a gale force winds. So I have to be very, not grounded, but centered and identified with this self before I can even leave the house.

It's like junk food. It tastes delicious, but then you feel like that.

Yeah.

I do. And it's called suffering. It's very reliable. That made me laugh. Forgive me. My best friend, suffering. I have a deeply love-hate relationship with suffering. If I'm, for example, I can barely look at Instagram because I will watch Instagram. A monkey nursing a kitten. And then I will be down that rabbit hole so far.