Dr. Mary Neal
Appearances
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Right, right. So many things you've said, Jeremy, are so typical of near-death experiences, having no sense of time, feeling the love, feeling like you don't really need the body and all its restrictions. But let me ask you, with all this new understanding, how does it change your day-to-day interactions with people?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
I've seen so many examples of people whose brains were obviously not functioning well, if at all, and yet they described their consciousness as more vivid than ever before.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Right, right. Is that true? People often say that it was designed specifically for them, like they had a role in creating it for them. And maybe that's just the way they perceived it. We all perceive the same experience in different ways. That's right. So maybe it's just what they take back from the experience is what's relevant to them.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Right, right. Yes. If you and I took a plane to Paris, we'd come back with very different memories because we have different interests. Even if we were on the same plane. Exactly. Absolutely.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Near-death experiences, or NDEs, are profound things that happen to many people when they come close to dying or sometimes are pronounced dead, but then recover.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Oprah, I've known Mary for a number of years, and what you don't see in this interview is that she's a down-to-earth, no-nonsense orthopedic surgeon who is very much making her career in this world by treating us, our physical bodies. And yet she's been aware for decades of this other world that we're part of as well that's more important than the physical.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Well, that first episode with Holly was just a fluke. And I thought, well, you know, she's a psychiatric patient. Who knows what's really going on? Yeah. This has got to be an explanation. So I started collecting other cases of people who had come close to death or been pronounced dead and had these fantastic stories to tell. And I was trying to find some consistency in...
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Are they related to oxygen deprivation? Are they related to drugs? Are they related to heart arrhythmias? You know, what's going on with these people? Over the last 50 years, we've talked to thousands and thousands of people, done some physiological measurements on people when they were close to death. We found that none of these simplistic hypotheses turns out to be true.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
It's not oxygen deprivation. It's not drugs. It's not endorphins being produced by the brain. It's not erratic electrical activity in the brain or the heart. These things just don't explain what's going on.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
And they include what they often perceive as mystical or spiritual experiences, like leaving your body, seeing other entities that may be deceased loved ones or deities, reviewing your life, and coming to some point of no return beyond which you can't keep going and still come back. And then you do come back.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
What we're taught in college and medical school is that the mind is what the brain does. And all our thoughts and feelings must come from the brain. And people who are trained in this way tend to accept that and not look at the data that contradict that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Right. But we see experiences like near-death experiences and lots of others as well that disprove that. And yet many scientists are reluctant to acknowledge this evidence that doesn't go along with what they were taught. I wish they were more skeptical about what they were taught and be more open to the evidence.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
No, no. The common elements are the same around the world with different cultures. We can see the same features in ancient Greece and Rome accounts of near-death experiences. They include a sense of leaving the physical body being in a place of peace and love and sense of well-being, often encountering other entities that they may interpret as being deities or divine beings or deceased loved ones.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
As a scientist, I can't say we've proven that. But as a person who's heard all these stories, I find it hard to deny that. There seem to be so many cases where people are pronounced dead and yet seem to be thinking clearly otherwise. And in fact, more vividly than ever before.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
And if that can happen without the brain being active, that opens a possibility that it keeps going forever or as long as we can measure.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Well, for many scientists, they have to experience it themselves. And they may do that eventually. Yeah. But I wanted to ask you a question, Harmony. I know we've heard from so many adult near-death experiences how hard it was to go back to a, quote, normal life after this. What was it like for a 13-year-old to go back to school and to do the usual activities of a teenager?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
They're sometimes guided through a life review, and at some point they come to a decision to return to life or they're sent back against their will to life.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
I haven't dealt with a lot of children, but those that I have talked to often have difficulty communicating. taking life seriously at that point. It's one thing when you're 30, 40 years old and you realize it's nothing more important. But when you're a kid trying to figure out who you are anyway, to have this thrown at you, it makes it much harder to figure out, what is my life all about?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
What am I going to do with it?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Correct? That's right. That's right. Everyone uses whatever language they can think of, but they always say, it's not the Jesus I was taught about. It's much bigger than that. Yeah. They said, I can't give you words for it, but it's there.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Well, I understand it because I started from that perspective. I was raised in a materialistic household and went through traditional training in science and medical school where we were taught that the mind is what the brain does. And when you die, that's just it. But I've been a psychiatrist for half a century now. I know what mental illness is like. I know what hallucinations are like.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Yes, it's very common. People differ how hard it is because some of them have a spiritual life to begin with and others don't. And we've done some studies recently looking at who people turn to for help. and what types of help and which ones don't.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
And what seems to be most helpful is talking to other people who have had near-death experiences and who have been through this before and come up with their own ways of dealing with this. Also, if you can find a group of other experiencers who have gone through this, they may be the most helpful thing for you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
And they're not at all like near-death experiences.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Yes, yeah. As I said, I went through medical school with this materialistic mindset. And one of my first weeks as a doctor, as a psychiatrist, I was asked to see a patient who overdosed in the emergency room. When I went to see her, she was unconscious. I could not arouse her. But her roommate had brought her in and was waiting down the hall to speak to me in another room.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Yeah, it's common, but it's not universal by any means. Some people say that they were given a choice. Do you want to stay here or do you want to go back and finish something? And they make a decision to come back and finish something they have left undone, whether it's helping a deceased or dying person pass over or raising a child or writing a book about it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
But they have some reason they chose to come back. You know, this is a setback against my will.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Yeah. Well, a near-death event is only the most common way in our culture to have this type of experience. But it's a common spiritual experience that's been happening for people for centuries all around the globe for different reasons. Some get it through meditation or through prayer or just spontaneously. And the near-death experience is just one precipitate for that experience.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Well, the most obvious one was what happens after we die. And I speculated about that. You asked before, what would it take for scientists to show that this is true? Scientists don't deal with proof. They deal with the weight of the evidence. So they can say, the evidence points to the fact that we survive, but they can never say it's proven. Scientists don't do that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
And the scientist in me says, I can't say for sure.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
But I believe it does. I believe the evidence points. I can't think of another explanation for these experiences. Okay.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
What happens after the other is, what happens to people after they've had a near-death experience and come back to this world?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
And how do they live their lives after the near-death experience?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Yes, and for most near-death experiences to say, that's the most important lesson of the NDE. How do you live your life knowing this? And the final reason for the book being called After is to make you think about what am I going to do differently after I've read this book? What do I do now with this knowledge? And there have been some studies now of how knowing about NDEs affects people's lives.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
They've done studies with looking at college students who've taken a course in NDEs and looked at them before and after. And some of the same after effects you see with near-death experiences becoming more spiritual, more compassionate, less materialistic. We see those with people who are just exposed to NDEs.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
And you often see this in family and friends of near-death experiencers, that they also become more spiritual, less driven to achieve in this world.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
So I went down to speak to the roommate and got information about the patient. Went back to see the patient. She was still unconscious. So she was admitted to the intensive care unit overnight. When I went to see her the next morning, as soon as she woke up, I went to see her and introduced myself. And she stopped me and said, I know who you are. I remember you from last night.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Oh, definitely. That's the most common thing people say after a near-death experience, no matter what the NDE was like. Whether it was blissful or not blissful, they say, I'm not afraid of dying anymore. And that's what makes the near-death experience different from other people who have come close to death. Most people who almost die come back valuing life more.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
They want to be more alive, more vibrant than they were before. But they're also more afraid of dying, unless they've had a near-death experience. And then they're not afraid of dying either. They say, in fact, if you're not afraid of dying, then you're less afraid of living to the fullest.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
I think you heard it from Jeremy and from Tom Sawyer as well, that you live your life knowing that what's important is how you treat other people. And that living the golden rule, not just giving lip service to it, but actually living it in your day-to-day life makes life much more meaningful, much more purposeful.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
That's kind of stunned me. So I said, you know, I thought you were out cold when I saw you. She said, well, I was, but I saw you talking to my roommate, Susan, down the hall. And I just got startled about it. I didn't know what she was talking about. I assume someone's playing a trick on me here.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
But then she went on to tell me about the conversation I had with the roommate, what I said, what the roommate answered, what we were wearing, to find details. And I didn't know how she could have known all this. Yeah, so that threw you. It threw me. Because nothing in medical school had prepared you for that. Not at all. Nothing in my life had prepared me for this.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Right, right. And when I went to the emergency room, it was covered up by my white lab coat. I had opened it to talk to the roommate, and it was a very hot night in late Virginia. And then I closed it up again before I left. So no one but the roommate had seen that spot. And somehow, the patient who was unconscious the whole time knew about it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Well, I didn't. I still do to some extent, but I understand that. You know, part of me is still looking for that materialistic explanation for it. But I've seen so many examples of people whose brains were obviously not functioning well, if at all, and yet they describe their consciousness as more vivid than ever before.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
And they have memories that were sharper than memories of other events at the same time in their life, decades after the event. So that tells you what? That it is not a hallucination. It is not even a, quote, normal memory because they're remembered so much more vividly.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
That's the implication, yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
That when the mind is functioning very well, the brain is not. And there's no medical explanation for how that can be.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
What do you make of all those similarities? Well, I think they must be talking about something that's real because everyone has it. How they describe it is based on What they're familiar with, what analogies they're familiar with. Because they all say, there isn't any word to describe what happened to me. I can't describe it. Love is not a strong enough word. God is not a strong enough word.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
But I experienced this thing that was just overwhelming for me. And I've heard this from people who were not religious at all. That's right. So have I. And yet they say, I can't deny this. This is more real to me than talking to you right now. And this is definitely what's going on.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Tom Sonnen.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Yes. Yes. Yes, you really feel things from other people's perspective. And Tom talks about beating someone up when he was a teenager and feeling it from that person's point of view or doing something nasty to his grandmother and felt it from her perspective. But I've also heard from people that...
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
they experienced not only what they were doing to other people, but they experienced the other person's emotions, which made them more compassionate. Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
But they often feel things that they didn't do, but other people did to them. For example, someone I knew was a woman who had an abusive childhood. And when she went back through her life review, she experienced her mother beating her from the mother's perspective. and realized her mother was trapped in this mode and she didn't know how else to relate to her daughter. Wow.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
And she came away feeling a tremendous compassion for her mother for the first time in her life. And Tom and this woman, they all come back with this idea that we're all the same. There's no barrier between me and you. And this leads them basically to the golden rule, which is part of every religion we have on this planet.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
That when you hurt someone else, you're hurting yourself as well. Yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
That's right. They come back totally changed. For them... The golden rule is not a guideline we're supposed to follow. It's the law of the universe that they've experienced.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
There's no getting around it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and a Doctor Explore What Near Death Experiences Reveal About Life and Beyond
Yeah.