Dr. Morris Chang

Nope. What node do you want? 20, he said. Now, that was a surprise to me. And frankly, it was also a disappointment because the most slow progression after 28 was going to be 16. Now, Apple, Jeff Williams, wanted 20.

Nope. What node do you want? 20, he said. Now, that was a surprise to me. And frankly, it was also a disappointment because the most slow progression after 28 was going to be 16. Now, Apple, Jeff Williams, wanted 20.

A half-step. But a half-step is a detour, you know. My thought at the dinner there was that we would have to spend effort on the 20. which of course would help us on the natural next note, which was 16. But still, it was a detour from 28, you know. From 28, if we could go directly to, if R&D would directly go to 16, it would be less time than the first do 20 and then.

A half-step. But a half-step is a detour, you know. My thought at the dinner there was that we would have to spend effort on the 20. which of course would help us on the natural next note, which was 16. But still, it was a detour from 28, you know. From 28, if we could go directly to, if R&D would directly go to 16, it would be less time than the first do 20 and then.

No, the point is that back then, R&D did not have enough resources to do two nodes at the same time. Later, we did.

No, the point is that back then, R&D did not have enough resources to do two nodes at the same time. Later, we did.

It wasn't that serious. It wasn't that serious. Because when we figured a very big market, 428, and therefore, when we planned to increase vastly our capital spending, we didn't have Apple in mind. We didn't include Apple. Apple came strictly as a present surprise. Anyway, for the company in total, but not for 28. We didn't include Apple in our 28 planning.

It wasn't that serious. It wasn't that serious. Because when we figured a very big market, 428, and therefore, when we planned to increase vastly our capital spending, we didn't have Apple in mind. We didn't include Apple. Apple came strictly as a present surprise. Anyway, for the company in total, but not for 28. We didn't include Apple in our 28 planning.

That's right. That is where our connection with Goldman Sachs came in. Remember, I planted a lot of seeds when I ran TSMC. I knew that one of these days we would probably need top-level investment bank advice. So we established a good relationship with Goldman Sachs very early in our existence. I was, in fact, a board director of Goldman Sachs. Did you know that? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

That's right. That is where our connection with Goldman Sachs came in. Remember, I planted a lot of seeds when I ran TSMC. I knew that one of these days we would probably need top-level investment bank advice. So we established a good relationship with Goldman Sachs very early in our existence. I was, in fact, a board director of Goldman Sachs. Did you know that? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

We did the ADR with Goldman Sachs, which opened up a good relationship with Goldman Sachs.

We did the ADR with Goldman Sachs, which opened up a good relationship with Goldman Sachs.

Yeah, ADI is American Deposit Receipts. It's New York. It's a separate market. In fact, right now, the TSMC price, ADR price is... has a 20% premium over. Really? Oh, wow. However, you know, you need TSMC board permission to convert your shares to ADR. Otherwise, you'd be able to arbitrage? Yeah. We don't want that. So, as I said, as I was saying, the board has to approve any conversion of...

Yeah, ADI is American Deposit Receipts. It's New York. It's a separate market. In fact, right now, the TSMC price, ADR price is... has a 20% premium over. Really? Oh, wow. However, you know, you need TSMC board permission to convert your shares to ADR. Otherwise, you'd be able to arbitrage? Yeah. We don't want that. So, as I said, as I was saying, the board has to approve any conversion of...

ordinary Taiwan TSMC stock to ADRs. And the board does not give such permission. Easily anyway, okay, yeah.

ordinary Taiwan TSMC stock to ADRs. And the board does not give such permission. Easily anyway, okay, yeah.

Right. This was very early in our history. Now, we need funds. I mean, this Apple thing came after we had already decided to increase capital spending. And now, you know, Apple requires even more capital spending. And we have to figure out where the cash is going to come from. So, you know, there were several possibilities, of course. We're paying a dividend, not a very big dividend,

Right. This was very early in our history. Now, we need funds. I mean, this Apple thing came after we had already decided to increase capital spending. And now, you know, Apple requires even more capital spending. And we have to figure out where the cash is going to come from. So, you know, there were several possibilities, of course. We're paying a dividend, not a very big dividend,

back then, but a modest dividend. We could cut that dividend. And then we also could sell stock, you know, new stock offering, either in Taiwan or in the US. We have the ADRs, you know. Or we can borrow money. Corporate bonds, you know.

back then, but a modest dividend. We could cut that dividend. And then we also could sell stock, you know, new stock offering, either in Taiwan or in the US. We have the ADRs, you know. Or we can borrow money. Corporate bonds, you know.