E.J. Dionne Jr.

And so I think that there are a lot of reasons why we are where we are, but I think that trauma we still have not fully come to terms with or come out the other side of, and we've got to get there at some point.

I'm really glad you raised that.

I'm curious what David thinks about this.

Ben Rhodes had a very good piece in The Times about a week or so ago.

And people talk about abolish ICE.

And I heard Jim McGovern, the progressive Democrat from Massachusetts, put it the same but different.

He said, let's scrap it and start over.

And I think this is the time to rethink

the creation of the Department of Homeland Security.

Does the Coast Guard belong in there?

Does FEMA belong in there?

That agency was put together.

And by the way, homeland is just not much of an American word.

High mud.

Yeah, no, it's a technical term.

It's not a word we ever used as a nation.

And so I think this is a time to – let's use that sort of battle cry, abolish ICE, and let's take it in the direction of rethinking how we created this agency under a lot of pressure.

The country was scared, legitimately so.

And you don't always do your best work in government when you're scared.

And I think DHS is an example of that.